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Philosophy: When is a religion true/fake?

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    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2009
     
    Especially in the West, there is a notion that there is such a thing as "true religion" and a "fake religion".

    For example, it is common to think of Scientology or Mormonism as "fake religions", and Christianity as "true religion". Or, many Christians think that Hinduism, Buddhism and many others are "fake religions".
    Bottomline, this distinction, however it is actually played out, is culturally present in the West (but perhaps not all over the world).

    I have found that I myself tend to think in terms of such a distinction, and that this seems to be an obstacle on my path, so I'd like to look into it, to see how this obstacle can be overcome.


    Can there be "true" and "fake" religions, are there such?

    How can one tell the difference?

    What exactly do the trueness and fakeness pertain to?





    Thank you for your discussion.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2009
     
    It is explained in sa vai pumsa paro dharmo verse. The criteria is ahaituki apratihata, so this verse and the second verse of the Bhagavatam explains it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2009 edited
     
    True relates to the 'sat', fake to the 'asat'. This is the SB view: fake = kaitava dharma (1.1.2)
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2009
     
    Can one know that one is on the right path even before one has attained the path's fruit or goal? And if yes, how can one know that?


    The purport to SB 1.2.6 says "Renunciation or abnegation for ultimate good is certainly a better occupation than enjoyment in the diseased condition of life."
    One could take this to mean that if one acts with the intention to reach the ultimate good, then one is already on the right path.

    Even if in a particular practical case, this means that a person simply gives up eating meat because they think it is somehow bad for the quality of their consciousness to eat meat, while this person otherwise has no specific idea what this ultimate good actually is -?
    • CommentAuthorHaridas
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2009
     
    As far as I recall Prabhupada has often written 'real religion means love of God'.
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2009
     
    Yes, paths are described in sastra. In BG alone several yogas are mentioned.

    This refers to jnana and karma. They're Vedic but lower paths than bhakti. (BG 5.2)

    To stop eating meat requires very little intelligence. There're no good reasons to eat it in the first place.
    Materially, the standard of good means dharma. Spiritually, it's para dharma, bhakti.
  7.  
    True religion is one that delivers spiritual experiences in this life. False religion is one that demands all sorts of things in this life while promising spiritual experiences after you die.
    •  
      CommentAuthormaah!
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2009
     
    The Acaryas call other religions "kaitava dharma" or cheating religions.

    "I have found that I myself tend to think in terms of such a distinction, and that this seems to be an obstacle on my path, so I'd like to look into it, to see how this obstacle can be overcome."

    Please tell us how thinking with distinction is an obstacle for you. "Intelligence means fine discrimination.' Srila Prabhupada.
    •  
      CommentAuthormaah!
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2009
     
    Bhagavad Gita 17. 2
    The Supreme Lord said, according to the modes of nature acquired by the embodied soul, one's faith can be of three kinds--goodness, passion or ignorance. Now hear about these.
    PURPORT

    Those who know the rules and regulations of the scriptures, but, out of laziness or indolence, give up following these rules and regulations are governed by the modes of material nature. According to their previous activities in the modes of goodness, passion or ignorance, they acquire a nature which is of a specific quality. The association of the living entity with the different modes of nature has been going on perpetually since the living entity is in contact with material nature. Thus he acquires different types of mentality according to his association with the material modes. But this nature can be changed if one associates with a bona fide spiritual master and abides by his rules and the scriptures. Gradually, one can change his position from ignorance to goodness, or from passion to goodness. The conclusion is that blind faith in a particular mode of nature cannot help a person become elevated to the perfectional stage. One has to consider things carefully, with intelligence, in the association of a bona fide spiritual master. Thus one can change his position to a higher mode of nature.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2009
     
    Baker - you were on the right track when you quoted from the purport of SB 1.2.6
    Here is the transliteration, translation and first part of Srila Prabhupada's purport of that sloka. This particular verse was always Prabhupada's standard when the subject of "what is the true/real/genuine/bonafide/authorized system of religion would arise. So the answer in a nutshell is that if the religious process you are following brings you to the stage of unalloyed love of God -- that is the first class .. or true ... religion. If it falls short of that it doesn't mean it's not a bona fide religious process but it does mean that it is not first class. For instance -- there are some religions that teach us that God is great, God is the Supreme Creator and we should obey the laws of God, etc. and that's alright -- but that is not the highest conception. That is why Krishna consciousness is also described as the post graduate study of all other religious conceptions in the world. So there are two parts of the question; i.e. true vs. fake .. or bona fide vs. unbona fide .... and first class vs. second and third class.

    sa vai pumsam paro dharmo
    yato bhaktir adhoksaje
    ahaituky apratihatä
    yayätmä suprasidati

    "The supreme occupation [dharma] for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted to completely satisfy the self." Yato bhaktir adhoksaje. The word bhakti comes from the same root as bhaj. The test of a first-class religion is whether or not we are developing our love for God. If we practice religion with some ulterior motive, hoping to fulfill our material necessities, our religion is not first class but third class. It must be understood that first-class religion is that by which we can develop our love of Godhead. Ahaituky apratihatä. This perfect religion should be executed without ulterior motive or impediment. That is the yoga system recommended in Srimad-Bhägavatam and in this Sixth Chapter of Bhagavad-gita. That is the system of Krishna consciousness.

    SB 1.2.6
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2009
     
    maah!:The Acaryas call other religions "kaitava dharma" or cheating religions. "I have found that I myself tend to think in terms of such a distinction, and that this seems to be an obstacle on my path, so I'd like to look into it, to see how this obstacle can be overcome." Please tell us how thinking with distinction is an obstacle for you. "Intelligence means fine discrimination.' Srila Prabhupada.
    In short, I am afraid that I have taken to the "wrong religion". I can't objectivley justify why I have taken to GV, so it seems it is the wrong one.
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2009
     
    What is your criteria for good and wrong then?
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2009
     
    "Objective justification". Which would require nothing less than omniscience ...

    I know, it is an absurd requirement for a human. Yet it is common in the West that religious people are expected to provide this sort of justification, or they are declared insane, or their views invalid, mere fantasies and delusions ...

    I just seem to be unable to see if there is another way to make valid choices, besides having obejctive jusitification for them.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2009
     
    Baker:

    Hey -- if it doesn't feel right -- come back when you're ready. Subjective reality may not even make sense but it's just that -- subjective. It's how you feel -- your gut feeling -- your intuition -- what's going on in your life at this particular juncture. I came to Krishna consciousness because in my heart of hearts -- in my gut -- I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that I had chanced upon the absolute truth. I had not a doubt and it was as if I was being drawn in like an iron filing to a powerful magnet. In my zealous early days I was convinced that all anybody needed to do was to hear or read one sentence -- one paragraph -- of Prabhupada's message and they would come aboard. I thought it was just a matter of time before my sister, my parents, all my friends, all the poets, philosophers, musicians, writers ... of my generation ... would have the same reaction I had. Well -- my sister did become a devotee shortly after I joined the mission but no -- my childhood friends, my so-called heros whose books and poems I had been reading and music I was listening to ---- they didn't all come swarming into the temple. That's when it hit me that this wasn't for everyone. I felt a kind of disappointment but at the same time felt incredibly fortunate -- as if I were among the chosen few.

    So the above summarizes my personal subjective experience when I first became aware of Srila Prabhupada, the Vedas, the philosophy of Krishna consciousness -- bhakti-yoag, etc etc. etc. I can't expect everyone to be like me. I can urge .. I can requset ... I can try my best to get others to appreciate .... but ultimately it's up to you and you alone. It seems that you have already made up your mind and that's that. There's not much more anybody can say. Sometimes a person would join the movement and after some tmie they decided to leave. They'd be sitting on the steps outside the temple having their crisis of faith -- not sure what to do. Devotees would one by one try to talk him/her into coming back inside and not going out there into "maya" -- or, as we called it "blooping." After awhile it became obvious that it didn't matter how many verses one quoted or how heartfelt one's advice or pleading was --- that person needed to leave. Maybe they would someday return or maybe they wouldn't. It was between that individual and God .. Krishna.

    Baker -- I wish you all the best in your endeavors and I hope that your journey does bring you to the path leading back to home, back to Godhead. Hare Krishna!
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeDec 1st 2009
     
    portnoy:It seems that you have already made up your mind and that's that. There's not much more anybody can say.
    Thank you for your well wishes. But I have to disagree with you. I am quite sure that there is some philosophical aspect that I am not understanding properly and which I need to figure out before I can move on.

    I refuse to settle for the opinion that some people have of me - namely that I just lack some mystical something and that this is why I have so many troubles and questions.

    I spoke to a senior devotee once, about sixty years old, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada himself. And this devotee uttered this sentence: "Even if the path of bhakti isn't true, it is still a good way to live."

    That made me think. I don't want to be sixty years old, with over two decades of presumed devotional service, yet still say such things as "Even if the path of bhakti isn't true, it is still a good way to live."

    No, I do no want that on my deathbed, in the last moments of consciousness, after the heart had stopped beating, I would start to wonder whether I have wasted my life, or whether it has all been a sham and I should have taken to an altogether different religion.

    I am sorry if some people don't like my inquiries. In my opinion, it is better that I try to figure these things out, while my brain is still reasonably functional, as opposed to putting them off to an uncertain future and giving in to peer pressure.
  16.  
    >Can there be "true" and "fake" religions, are there such?

    Different religions are different rungs of the same ladder.

    >What exactly do the trueness and fakeness pertain to? many Christians think that Hinduism, Buddhism and many others are "fake religions".

    Trueness and fakeness pertain to the ego of the followers of a religion. When a Christian says that christanity is great or a hindu says hinduism is great, he really doesn't mean that christianity is great or hinduism is great. In reality he wants to say that he is great. But it will not look nice if he says that he is great so his mind takes a different route and says that christianity is great or if he is a hindu he will say hinduism is great. And he is a follower of christianity so he is also great. So to prove himself great he makes christianity great. Because if christianity is not great and he is a follower of that religion, how can he be great? And christianity can be great only if other religions are fake. And the same applies to the followers of other religion, it doesn't really matter which religion one is following. The ego of the follower makes him to declare that the one which he is following is the greatest and others are fake.

    The christian has not even chosen christianity, it was just an accident that he was born to two people who were following christianity. But if christianity is not great how can he be great? Same with Hindus, moslems and all other followers. This is their mind and ego tricking them.

    The followers of different religions are fighting and killing each other, calling each other fake for last 2000 years and they will keep doing the same for next 2000 years as well. Religions hate each other, their followers hate each other, because they are fooled by their egos.

    >I refuse to settle for the opinion that some people have of me - namely that I just lack some mystical something and that this is why I have so many troubles and questions.

    Asking questions is the sign of intelligence, there is no problem with that. Buffaloes don't ask questions but humans they do. Srila Prabhupada was answering the questions of his followers continuously for 11 years.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 1st 2009
     
    Well great, Baker -- I hope you prove me wrong and that you are ready to become fully enlightened -- to jump into the ocean of the nectar of devotion. Maybe you just need some encouragement which is why you continue to ask relevant questions and interact with aspiring devotees on this website. All that's needed is a sincere desire and if we don't have a desire then we can have the desire to have a desire to aspire to aspire to have the desire to want to hope against hope to awaken our dormant love of God. Maybe you're very ready -- ready, willing and eager. That's wonderful. That's fabulous. It's not that devotees are into converting people -- it's that we want to share with everyone we meet the wonderful treasure we have found. Krishna consciousness is the secret of all secrets .. the king of all knowledge ... the purest and highest path of perfection ... and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization it is everlasting and joyfully performed. (Bhagavad-gita 9.2)
    • CommentAuthordeena
    • CommentTimeDec 1st 2009
     
    [quote] Baker: I just seem to be unable to see if there is another way to make valid choices, besides having obejctive jusitification for them.[/quote]

    There is a recommended way to make valid choices. The system is described by Shri Krishna in the Bhagavad-gita, which besides establishing pure devotional service as the highest benefit and duty, is a discourse on how to make choices on every issue/situation you confront. More than half of the Gita slokas Shri Krishna speaks are an explaination of one subject or another in terms of the four categories of ignorance, passion, goodness and pure goodness. This is a scientific system that, if you study it, assimilate it and see the world through it, empowers you to accurately assess anyone and everything in the world. You do not need to have any particular religious affiliation to use this system.

    This system is so successful that it was previoulsy used by great sages in determining who is the supreme God among Gods: "The plan decided upon by the sages was for Bhrgu to test which of the predominating deities possesses the quality of goodness in full." (Ch 89: Krishna Book). Even God was assessed using this system.

    So the answer to the question at hand lies in you assessing a religion against the criteria recommended by Shri Krishna in the Gita. Can you try it and get back to us with your conclusion?
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2009 edited
     
    > "Even if the path of bhakti isn't true, it is still a good way to live."

    This is what SP once answered to a reporter who asked "What would you do if it's proven Krsna doesn't exist?" SP chose to go along and stated the above. It means that bhaktiyoga is a honest and blissful way of life, better than any other path (karma, jnana, yoga). At the deathbed one won't be feeling his life was wasted.

    > whether I have wasted my life, or whether it has all been a sham and I should have taken to an altogether different religion.

    This fear comes from the 'one life' paradigm when one is afraid of the afterlife, having very vague idea about it. "If I choose a wrong religion, I'll be eternally condemned."
    You must have missed the link to our reincarnation article which deals with Biblical objection against r.:
    http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/reincarnation.htm
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2009 edited
     
    baker: Thank you for your well wishes. But I have to disagree with you. I am quite sure that there is some philosophical aspect that I am not understanding properly and which I need to figure out before I can move on.


    Philosophy is practical. At least eastern philosophy.

    baker:I refuse to settle for the opinion that some people have of me - namely that I just lack some mystical something and that this is why I have so many troubles and questions.



    Good that you want to get answers. That is practical!

    baker: I spoke to a senior devotee once, about sixty years old, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada himself. And this devotee uttered this sentence: "Even if the path of bhakti isn't true, it is still a good way to live."

    Ha. The path of bhakti is true! It is the path of every true religion as well.

    baker:I am sorry if some people don't like my inquiries. In my opinion, it is better that I try to figure these things out, while my brain is still reasonably functional, as opposed to putting them off to an uncertain future and giving in to peer pressure.


    That IS devotional service - to ask questions. It is devotional service to answer them.
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2009
     
    VEDA:> "Even if the path of bhakti isn't true, it is still a good way to live."
    This is what SP once answered to a reporter who asked "What would you do if it's proven Krsna doesn't exist?" SP chose to go along and stated the above. It means that bhaktiyoga is a honest and blissful way of life, better than any other path (karma, jnana, yoga). At the deathbed one won't be feeling his life was wasted.
    You will have to tell me more about this, please!

    Surely Srila Prabhupada knew first-hand that Krishna exists and that the scriptures are correct?

    Are scriptures to be understood as merely provisional / instructional, a path to a goal, but not the final account of the truth?

    When it is stated "Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead" (or any other scriptural statement of is-ness) - what does that "is" mean, how is it to be understood?

    How can one possibly practice bhakti yoga with the outlook "Even if the path of bhakti isn't true, it is still a good way to live"?

    How can one, for example, chant, while having the outlook "Even if this isn't the ultimate right thing, it is still a good way to spend my time"?

    Is it not so that it is necessary to believe, to accept that the path of bhakti yoga as set out by Vedic scriptures and the disciplic succession, is true, as opposed to being merely a useful fabrication?

    Did Srila Prabhupada answer to that reporter primarily in a way he saw fit that the reporter would understand best, or does that answer represent his true position on the matter?

    > whether I have wasted my life, or whether it has all been a sham and I should have taken to an altogether different religion.
    This fear comes from the 'one life' paradigm when one is afraid of the afterlife, having very vague idea about it. "If I choose a wrong religion, I'll be eternally condemned." You must have missed the link to our reincarnation article which deals with Biblical objection against r.: http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/reincarnation.htm
    My Christian conditioning is not to be underestimated ... I can read and explain about reincarnation until I am breathless, and a second later say "But I am still afraid this isn't so and I will burn in hell for all eternity."
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2009
     
    dweller-in-peace: Trueness and fakeness pertain to the ego of the followers of a religion.
    Yes, I have been suspecting that the way a person speaks about their religion and the religions of other people has a lot to do with that person's ideas of how they want and should present themselves, in order to fulfill some particular agenda. This occured to me as I have noticed that the instructions various religionists have given me and other people for how to practice a religion and how to know the truth about it, seemed very different from the instructions they said they have followed in order to arrive at their present considerably advanced (" "?) religious status.
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2009
     
    deena:So the answer to the question at hand lies in you assessing a religion against the criteria recommended by Shri Krishna in the Gita. Can you try it and get back to us with your conclusion?
    Being somewhat familiar with the Bhagavad-gita, I can tell you right away that I think it probably delivers what it promises - provided that the person follows the instructions fully.

    I can also tell you right away that I don't think I am able to execute those instructions fully, nor do I know whether I will be able to do so in a foreseeable time. I see this as my failing.

    I am not complaining nor am I saying that the Bhagavad-gita is wrong or fake.

    My quandary is that of a person who is convinced that it is important to follow a true religion, but who is also aware of her shortcomings and that because of those shortcomings she therefore does not have the means to execute the process as prescribed by scriptures.

    What is such a person supposed to do, what attitudes should she have?

    She can't speak and act with certainty, but uncertainty is paralyzing.
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2009
     
    ccd: Philosophy is practical. At least eastern philosophy.
    I agree. I have always thought philosophy is practical, perhaps the most practical kind of knowledge there is. Because when life gets hard, one has to be able to think clearly in order to act wisely.

    Ha. The path of bhakti is true! It is the path of every true religion as well.
    "True" in what sense?

    That IS devotional service - to ask questions. It is devotional service to answer them.
    As per BG 18.68?
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2009 edited
     
    > "True" in what sense?

    In the sense of dharmah-religiosity; projjhita-completely rejected; kaitavah-covered by fruitive intention; atra-therein; -- as per the second verse of Srimad Bhagavatam or any 'other' true religion

    > As per BG 18.68?

    As per the first verse of the second chapter of the same Srimad Bhagavatam (and other places e.g. SB 1.2.5).
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2009
     
    What the hell is aguarta sukriti?

    In my 41 years as a disciple of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada I have never heard him preach like that. The fact that you exist, Sri Govinda Das -- and that you pretend that you speak for my spiritual master and the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya is a scary and disheartening thought. You are dangerous in your misrepresentation and that is why I continue to take a hard and harsh line with you and ask you repeatedly to please stay quiet. Don't write anything here anymore and don't preach on public forums. You have a lot of growing up to do and a lot of introspective soul searching before you hopefully mature out of this show bottle fanatical over zealous self righteous holier than thou personality you display shamelessly. Please ... please please please keep quiet. Hush. No more. You're embarrassing yourself and what's worse you are embarrassing any and all genuine followers and students of Srila Prabhupada in your horrific misrepresentation of his mood and teachings. Next time you bow down on the marble floor -- stay down. Don't get up. Maybe if you remain in that position for a few days or weeks or years you'll have a catharsis -- a breakthrough. That's wishful thinking but hope springs eternal where there is "aguarta sukriti."
  27.  
    portnoy: In my 41 years as a disciple of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada I have never heard him preach like that. The fact that you exist, Sri Govinda Das -- and that you pretend that you speak for my spiritual master and the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya is a scary and disheartening thought. You are dangerous in your misrepresentation and that is why I continue to take a hard and harsh line with you and ask you repeatedly to please stay quiet. Don't write anything here anymore and don't preach on public forums. You have a lot of growing up to do and a lot of introspective soul searching before you hopefully mature out of this show bottle fanatical over zealous self righteous holier than thou personality you display shamelessly. Please ... please please please keep quiet. Hush. No more. You're embarrassing yourself and what's worse you are embarrassing any and all genuine followers and students of Srila Prabhupada in your horrific misrepresentation of his mood and teachings. Next time you bow down on the marble floor -- stay down. Don't get up. Maybe if you remain in that position for a few days or weeks or years you'll have a catharsis -- a breakthrough. That's wishful thinking but hope springs eternal where there is "aguarta sukriti."
    Seems to me that in your 41 years of discipleship you have learned very little of compassion your guru had for his disciples. I am embarassed just reading the above post. While Sri Govinda das sometimes writes controversial pieces, you are in no position to tell him to be quiet. You are not his guru and you do not have a patent on being a 'genuine follower and student of Srila Prabhupada'. ---------- Young devotees who read such exchanges have the right to wonder: "Is that what I'm going to sound like after practicing Krsna consciousness for 40 years?" ----------- Yikes! scary thought...
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2009
     
    portnoy:What the hell is aguarta sukriti? In my 41 years as a disciple of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada I have never heard him preach like that. The fact that you exist, Sri Govinda Das -- and that you pretend that you speak for my spiritual master and the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya is a scary and disheartening thought. You are dangerous in your misrepresentation and that is why I continue to take a hard and harsh line with you and ask you repeatedly to please stay quiet. Don't write anything here anymore and don't preach on public forums. You have a lot of growing up to do and a lot of introspective soul searching before you hopefully mature out of this show bottle fanatical over zealous self righteous holier than thou personality you display shamelessly. Please ... please please please keep quiet. Hush. No more. You're embarrassing yourself and what's worse you are embarrassing any and all genuine followers and students of Srila Prabhupada in your horrific misrepresentation of his mood and teachings. Next time you bow down on the marble floor -- stay down. Don't get up. Maybe if you remain in that position for a few days or weeks or years you'll have a catharsis -- a breakthrough. That's wishful thinking but hope springs eternal where there is "aguarta sukriti."
    Well, this is a free, open online forum, and everyone can have their say, at least to some extent.

    I am actually not sure whether sheltering or at least trying to shelter people from such preaching as Sri Govinda Das' is a good idea.

    I am actively making an effort and trying to see his preaching style in some positive way. I think it is a good exercise to control my mind and my tongue (or fingers) when I am preached to like that. I also try to see it as a challenge meant for myself to develop some basic independence in my spiritual practice, as opposed to seeking (too much) approval from others.

    As for whether it was Srila Prabhupada's mood to preach like that or not, and whether such preaching is a misrepresentation of his mood: I think this is for the more advanced to decide and act accordingly.

    I am actually glad to see such a mixture of ways of preaching, because it gives me a better idea of what to expect in ISKCON and what to get ready for.
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2009 edited
     
    Kula-pavana:Young devotees who read such exchanges have the right to wonder: "Is that what I'm going to sound like after practicing Krsna consciousness for 40 years?" ----------- Yikes! scary thought...
    This is true, though, such exchanges do make me fear whether even after decades of supposed devotional service, I am going to sound feisty like that. This fear makes me slow down and look into issues pertaining to the practice in more detail. Which, of course, in the eyes of some just makes me appear like an idle skeptic, unsurrendered and so on, earning me more of such criticism.
    • CommentAuthordeena
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2009 edited
     
    [quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] deena:[/cite]So the answer to the question at hand lies in you assessing a religion against the criteria recommended by Shri Krishna in the Gita. Can you try it and get back to us with your conclusion?[/quote]

    [br]My quandary is that of a person who is convinced that it is important to follow a true religion, but who is also aware of her shortcomings and that because of those shortcomings she therefore does not have the means to execute the process as prescribed by scriptures.[br]
    [br]What is such a person supposed to do, what attitudes should she have?[br]
    [br]She can't speak and act with certainty, but uncertainty is paralyzing.[br][/quote]

    That person is about to make a definte choice about their future: Remain forever paralysed with uncertainty, or try a recommended path. There is no escape: the responsibility is squarely on their shoulders. They are feeling the weight of responsibilty and are taking shelter of the easiest and path most travelled - do nothing and hope it all goes away. But that is not Shri Krishna's way. His way is "kṣudraḿ hṛdaya-daurbalyaḿ tyaktvottiṣṭha - Give up such petty weakness of heart and arise," (2.3) "uttiṣṭha kaunteya yuddhāya kṛta-niścayaḥ - Get up with determination and fight!" (2.37) But we balk at this, try to avoid it. It is too much pressure for us, we become "śoka-saḿvigna-mānasaḥ - mind overwhelmed with grief" (1.46), "sammūḍha-cetāḥ - bewildered at heart." We want to run away and not face the battle for our soul.

    Ultimately we most adopt the attitude of Arjuna and break free from our uncertainty: "He [Arjuna] could understand that his so-called knowledge was useless in driving away his problems, which were drying up his whole existence; and it was impossible for him to solve such perplexities without the help of a spiritual master like Lord Kṛṣṇa." (2.8 purport)
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2009
     
    VEDA:> "Even if the path of bhakti isn't true, it is still a good way to live." This is what SP once answered to a reporter who asked "What would you do if it's proven Krsna doesn't exist?" SP chose to go along and stated the above. It means that bhaktiyoga is a honest and blissful way of life, better than any other path (karma, jnana, yoga). At the deathbed one won't be feeling his life was wasted.
    Could you please provide the reference for where Srila Prabhupada said that?
  32.  
    Baker:
    Kula-pavana:Young devotees who read such exchanges have the right to wonder: "Is that what I'm going to sound like after practicing Krsna consciousness for 40 years?" ----------- Yikes! scary thought...
    This is true, though, such exchanges do make me fear whether even after decades of supposed devotional service, I am going to sound feisty like that. This fear makes me slow down and look into issues pertaining to the practice in more detail. Which, of course, in the eyes of some just makes me appear like an idle skeptic, unsurrendered and so on, earning me more of such criticism.
    There is nothing wrong with being a sceptic. Usually that is a sign of intelligence. Real truth is illuminating and does not have to be brainwashed or drilled into people. ------------------ As to the progress on the path.... It is up to you how well you will use your time spent on the practice of bhakti-yoga. I know quite a few very advanced disciples of Srila Prabhupada who are a great pleasure to associate with. They are my inspiration. I can also see how this process transformed me personally. I have become a much better person over the years (as hard as it may be to believe).
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2009 edited
     
    > Surely Srila Prabhupada knew first-hand that Krishna exists and that the scriptures are correct?

    Definitely

    > Are scriptures to be understood as merely provisional / instructional, a path to a goal, but not the final account of the truth?

    Sastras on earth are a small sample of sastras on higher planets...

    > When it is stated "Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead" (or any other scriptural statement of is-ness) - what does that "is" mean, how is it to be understood?

    That He fits the description of Bhagavan (six bhagas in full). See Wiki.

    > How can one possibly practice bhakti yoga with the outlook "Even if the path of bhakti isn't true, it is still a good way to live"?

    > How can one, for example, chant, while having the outlook "Even if this isn't the ultimate right thing, it is still a good way to spend my time"?

    Like a child, untouched by jnana. 8)

    > Is it not so that it is necessary to believe, to accept that the path of bhakti yoga as set out by Vedic scriptures and the disciplic succession, is true, as opposed to being merely a useful fabrication?

    No, even animals and plants get the benefit from Harinama, prasadam, etc. For a higher level of practice, yes.

    > Did Srila Prabhupada answer to that reporter primarily in a way he saw fit that the reporter would understand best, or does that answer represent his true position on the matter?

    The earlier. It was simply going along with the question.

    > Could you please provide the reference for where Srila Prabhupada said that?

    Can't find it. Probably it was told in the Prabhupada Memories series.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 5th 2009
     
    Your visions for the future are not glorious and wonderful -- they are scary and dangerous.
    Rubber-stamped, voted in gurus by an illegitimate governing body with cheerleaders and crusaders like yourself pushing them on and zealously defending them to the last breath is not the way it's supposed to be and I have faith that it will all sort out by the grace of Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga.
    A disciple of a bona fide guru is one thing -- an obsequious sycophant of a pretender is another. There's a world of difference betewen the two.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2009 edited
     
    Srila Prabhupada told us that it's okay to act as Acarya and guru even if we're not qualified? Where's your evidence that he said any such thing? Srila Prabhupada never appointed anybody to be Acarya. He told us to continue the mission as he taught and showed us ... and who will emerge succesful and self effulgent --- that will become apparent. He never appointed eleven zonal gurus and never instructed that the GBC should have some ecclesiastic authority to vote on who can and cannot be a guru. The whole thing is concoction starting with the lies and deviations that emerged immediately after the departure of His Divine Grace in 1977. I served in ISKCON from 1968 to 1978 and after pleading with my godbrothers to cease and desist the destructive path they were taking I had to leave. It was the most difficult decision I ever had to make but there was no other way. I continued to do what I could to spread Srila Prabhupada's teachings and distribute his books but I could no longer in good conscience advise people to join an ISKCON temple and accept some zonal appointed (pretender) guru. Some years later, after so many scandals and after thousands of us left the society an attempt at something called guru reform was tried but it only made matters worse. Rather than admit the mistakes and go back to square one -- instead of admitting that two plus two does not equal five they announced that from then on two plus two would equal six. Pretenders? Yes -- pretenders who have done a great disservice to their godbrothers and godsisters who flocked to Srila Prabhupada with love and devotion and helped him build ISKCON up into a great international spiritual movement meant to save the world from godlessness. Pretenders? That's putting it mildly.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
     
    Well goody for you. Maybe someday you'll catch up to the Catholic Church. While they hold their ecumenical councils to vote in the new pope -- ISKCON can hold its yearly elections to vote in new gurus to accommodate and facilitate all that wonderful growth --- IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.

    Sonny boy --- do I need a sledge hammer to make you understand that Srila Prabhupada's main conern was purity (is the force)? He said he would rather have one moonlike student than a thousand stars. During his final days with us he stressed over and over the idea of boiling the milk -- not expanding -- not being so concerned with quantity or recruiting so many new people -- but for his disciples (us) to mature and become pure. Do you know what that means -- boil the milk? Why don't you explain it to me so I know you actually get the meaning. English is your mother tongue -- isn't it? If so why am I having such a hard time communicating with you. Is it that you simply don't give a damn what Prabhupada's vision, mood, instructions and desires were for HIS ISKCON? Now it's not his anymore -- it belongs to a handful of my godbrothers who illegitimately usurped the reins of power and leadership (and finances) -- along with their cheerleading sycophanat followers (like yourself who seems to be waving the biggest and most colorful pom poms). You really do need to learn how to listen (or in this case read) before responding. It's painfully obvious that before you even digest and comprehend the information you are excitedly jumping onto your keyboard for yet another paid for political announcement.
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
     
    A fitting title for a thread ...
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
     
    Pornoy is 'the' moonlike student ?
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
     
    Who the hell is Pornoy? If you wanna get clever and sarcastic at least watch your spelling ccd. It takes the wind right out of your sails. Okay -- now get the spelling right and make another smug comment to impress your audience.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
     
    I actually do now work to impress the audience. I just want to hear a single bit of positive and encouraging instruction from you dear P. Prabhu.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
     
    Chant the Holy Names of the Lord and your life will be sublime! There -- happy now? Feeling encouraged Prabhuji? All glories to your service. You are so intelligent and perceptive. Thank you for all the insight you add to this website. All glories to all the wonderful gurus in ISKCON who are gathering more and more followers every day. Want more? Will that hold you over for the time being?

    I'm trying to blast through the lies and deceptions that are going on in order to perpetuate horrific deviations that went on 30 plus years ago and until they are understood and exposed in the light of day will continue to besmirch the legacy of the Founder Acarya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness and cheat newcomers out of the pure teachings and message of the ISKCON movement. I'm sorry if that isn't encouraging for you. This website is about questions and answers -- finding the truth. What's your agenda? Do you want to hold hands and sing kumbaya? You want me to give you a warm fuzzy feeling inside? Drink a cup of warm milk. I'm trying to dynamite thruogh thick walls of deception and lies and you "just want to hear a single bit of positive and encouraging instruction?" Grow up.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
     
    By the way -- what do you mean "I actually do NOW work to impress the audience??? If that's what you do now -- what did you do then? I'm very confused.
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2009 edited
     
    portnoy:Who the hell is Pornoy? If you wanna get clever and sarcastic at least watch your spelling ccd. It takes the wind right out of your sails. Okay -- now get the spelling right and make another smug comment to impress your audience.
    Is "Portnoy" your real name, or did you deliberately choose it as your screen name?
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2009
     
    Portnoy is my ALTAR ego. Most pujaris have ALTAR egos as well.

    Oh ... and sri_govinda_das ..... this website would be a pretty cool place for people to come if you were to leave. What would it take to get you to disappear? You're an embarrassment. You are so pretentious and phoney that it hurts reading the crap you post -- and you seem to feel a need to post and post and post and post. When do you have time to eat? You really are a first-class putz.
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2009
     
    portnoy:Portnoy is my ALTAR ego. Most pujaris have ALTAR egos as well.
    Is this some kind of reference to Philip Roth's novel?
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2009
     
    Baker:
    portnoy:Portnoy is my ALTAR ego. Most pujaris have ALTAR egos as well.
    Is this some kind of reference to Philip Roth's novel?
    Could be just a name of an immigrant who settled in NY in early 20c ;-)
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2009
     
    Very good --- you're on the right track with Philip Roth. You're off with the New York guess though -- but close. New Jersey. Newark, New Jersey to be exact. What does any of this have to do with the Brooklyn Bridge? Absolutely nothing and when nothing is absolute then it must have something to do with the brilliant effulgence (brahmajyoti) of the Supreme Absolute Truth. Om purnam adah purnam idam. Purnat purnam udacyate. Purnasya purnam adayah. Purnam eve vasisyate

    All seriousnses aside -- I prefer being incognito because in the past some of my ideas caused not just one -- but three different people at different times and places and under separate circumsstances thought their duty to God and Guru was to physically attack me with the intention of causing bodily harm. One of them said something about cutting the tongue out of an offender of his (ISKCON) guru.
    • CommentAuthorKula-pavana
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2009 edited
     
    portnoy:He said he would rather have one moonlike student than a thousand stars.
    Can you actually show us such a quote? ------------------ And if that is true, is that why SP initiated some 5000 disciples? ------------------ This is the proper quote, without your twisting influences:-------------- SP speaking about brahmanas (Morning Walk Establishing the College of Vedic Science http://krishna.org/morning-walk-establishing-the-college-of-vedic-science-mp3-audio/ ) ------------------- "Bahya means external, and abhyantara means internal, not duplicity. That bahya, externally something, and internally something, that will not be successful. Bahyabhyantaram sucih. Sucih means purified, brahmana. And who is not purified, he is mucih. (break) We have to present an ideal institution, not that we make compromise with everybody. That is not our business. We don’t want stars. We want moon. What is the use of millions of stars? Get one moon. That is sufficient. (break) …not expect everyone to become brahmana. That is not possible. Because the three qualities are working, you cannot make all the population on the modes of goodness. That is not possible. There must be people in passion and ignorance. Otherwise, why Krsna says, catur-varnyam, four division?" ---------------------------------- The Moon is ISKCON! ----------------- another lie exposed....
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2009
     
    I don't respond to demands from morons and you, Kula Pavana, are a moron. No -- you're less off than moron. You tell me that we Prabhupada disciples are fossils which means you spit in the face of Srila Prabhupada. If you can't see that then what is the purpose of discussing anything further with you? You don't understand how to add two plus two and you want to discuss calculus with me? You and your buddy from New Zealand need to do only two things -- shut up and grow up. Can you do that? Try that for a few months at least and then get back to me.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2009
     
    But just for your information -- here is from a letter Srila Prabhupada wrote to Brahmananda back in '67 right after Kirtanananda disobeyed Srila Prabhupada (what he did rather than what he was told to do is not important):

    "I do not want crowd of Kirtananandas but I want a single soul like Brahmananda, Mukunda, Rayarama, and Satsvarupa. The same example is always applicable that one moon is sufficient for the night as not thousands of stars."

    This is one of many times Srila Prabhupada made such a comment. He also once told us that even though he would have been satisfied with just one moon instead of thousands of stars (meaning one very sincere and serious disciple rather than so many pretenders) --- he said that Krishna sent him so many moons. He spoke about us like that -- the same people you refer to as fossils Srila Prabhupada referred to as his beloved sons and daughters. In fact in one of his letters to me he said that although he had renounced family life which also meant leaving behind his children -- Krishna had sent him so many wonderful sons and daughters like my wife and me to take care of him and help him to fulfill the order of his guru maharaja."

    So anyway -- how you can understand? I make these quotes in case anyone can appreciate but you Kula Pavana can't appreciate. What can you know or understand? You are too much puffed up with yourself and your mentality is very low and envious. With your chest puffed out you insult Srila Prabhupada by insulting his spiritual children. What is wrong with you? Obviously you were never trained properly. How could you have been? I really can't blame you. You were misled but then I have to ask myself -- why these people could not see the cheaters and the cheating? What were they lacking that they were so eager to accept something that was not right? That's one thing -- but when you are informed of what is what and how things are rather than appreciate and thankful you spit and curse and slither like a snake hissing away. You don't see any of this -- do you? That is why I recommend that you listen -- don't talk; read -- don't write. This is my best advice for you but will you take it? Highly doubtful. You have shown your true colors. I pull covers and rattle cages and it's always interesting to see what is what when the dust settles.

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