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When is a religion true/fake?
  • Baker
    Especially in the West, there is a notion that there is such a thing as "true religion" and a "fake religion".

    For example, it is common to think of Scientology or Mormonism as "fake religions", and Christianity as "true religion". Or, many Christians think that Hinduism, Buddhism and many others are "fake religions".
    Bottomline, this distinction, however it is actually played out, is culturally present in the West (but perhaps not all over the world).

    I have found that I myself tend to think in terms of such a distinction, and that this seems to be an obstacle on my path, so I'd like to look into it, to see how this obstacle can be overcome.


    Can there be "true" and "fake" religions, are there such?

    How can one tell the difference?

    What exactly do the trueness and fakeness pertain to?





    Thank you for your discussion.
  • ccd
    It is explained in sa vai pumsa paro dharmo verse. The criteria is ahaituki apratihata, so this verse and the second verse of the Bhagavatam explains it.
  • VEDAVEDA
    True relates to the 'sat', fake to the 'asat'. This is the SB view: fake = kaitava dharma (1.1.2)
  • Baker
    Can one know that one is on the right path even before one has attained the path's fruit or goal? And if yes, how can one know that?


    The purport to SB 1.2.6 says "Renunciation or abnegation for ultimate good is certainly a better occupation than enjoyment in the diseased condition of life."
    One could take this to mean that if one acts with the intention to reach the ultimate good, then one is already on the right path.

    Even if in a particular practical case, this means that a person simply gives up eating meat because they think it is somehow bad for the quality of their consciousness to eat meat, while this person otherwise has no specific idea what this ultimate good actually is -?
  • Haridas
    As far as I recall Prabhupada has often written 'real religion means love of God'.
  • VEDAVEDA
    Yes, paths are described in sastra. In BG alone several yogas are mentioned.

    This refers to jnana and karma. They're Vedic but lower paths than bhakti. (BG 5.2)

    To stop eating meat requires very little intelligence. There're no good reasons to eat it in the first place.
    Materially, the standard of good means dharma. Spiritually, it's para dharma, bhakti.
  • Kula-pavana
    True religion is one that delivers spiritual experiences in this life. False religion is one that demands all sorts of things in this life while promising spiritual experiences after you die.
  • maah!maah!
    The Acaryas call other religions "kaitava dharma" or cheating religions.

    "I have found that I myself tend to think in terms of such a distinction, and that this seems to be an obstacle on my path, so I'd like to look into it, to see how this obstacle can be overcome."

    Please tell us how thinking with distinction is an obstacle for you. "Intelligence means fine discrimination.' Srila Prabhupada.
  • maah!maah!
    Bhagavad Gita 17. 2
    The Supreme Lord said, according to the modes of nature acquired by the embodied soul, one's faith can be of three kinds--goodness, passion or ignorance. Now hear about these.
    PURPORT

    Those who know the rules and regulations of the scriptures, but, out of laziness or indolence, give up following these rules and regulations are governed by the modes of material nature. According to their previous activities in the modes of goodness, passion or ignorance, they acquire a nature which is of a specific quality. The association of the living entity with the different modes of nature has been going on perpetually since the living entity is in contact with material nature. Thus he acquires different types of mentality according to his association with the material modes. But this nature can be changed if one associates with a bona fide spiritual master and abides by his rules and the scriptures. Gradually, one can change his position from ignorance to goodness, or from passion to goodness. The conclusion is that blind faith in a particular mode of nature cannot help a person become elevated to the perfectional stage. One has to consider things carefully, with intelligence, in the association of a bona fide spiritual master. Thus one can change his position to a higher mode of nature.
  • Can one know that one is on the right path even before one has attained the path's fruit or goal? And if yes, how can one know that?...Actually the ''super soul'' within your heart directs you according to your karma....your agnata -sukriti and your personal sincerity or lack of sincerity .
  • Therefore when you want to be ''cheated'' .....you don't want krishna or the bliss of surrender,he provides a ''meat eating'' religion .These are usually family oriented....feel good tarditions were the top ten percent of ones brain substance is never bothered.There is very little beyound the purveiw of the senses....no inconceivable....transcendental appreciations of ''adhoksaje''....krishna.One is in the mood of ''how can i and my family enjoy our world and its wonderful beautiful places....especially sex should not be minimised.But when i am feeling ''saintly '' let me give charity to those who glorify and appreciate my very fine qualities.
  • Eventually though when wants the real thing........... brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva
    guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija

    Bhakti-lata-bija, that is not very easily available. But it is available–guru-krsna-krpaya. Because Krsna is situated in everyone’s heart, if you are actually eager to understand Krsna, then Krsna can understand that “This living entity is trying to understand.” So He gives a guru. He gives… Caitya… He’s caitya-guru. He is guru Himself within one’s heart, and He gives intelligence. Buddhi-yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te. To a sincere person, He gives the intelligence that “You accept this guru.” So even your intelligence or lack of it is due to krishna's mercy and desire.
  • So the neophyte cheaters are after some spiritual enjoyment ......after they have exhausted there sensual material platform ,they wonder can i enjoy like god ...like krishna because i deserve it after all.So they bring this mentality to exploit god himself.So 99-percent of the population is seemingly after this cheating religion.....even in our Iskcon this is a strong mood of enjoy first.....maybe krishna's pleasure soon......... after ''I or mine''........ or my children's senses are satisfied.... thank you.
  • portnoyportnoy
    Baker - you were on the right track when you quoted from the purport of SB 1.2.6
    Here is the transliteration, translation and first part of Srila Prabhupada's purport of that sloka. This particular verse was always Prabhupada's standard when the subject of "what is the true/real/genuine/bonafide/authorized system of religion would arise. So the answer in a nutshell is that if the religious process you are following brings you to the stage of unalloyed love of God -- that is the first class .. or true ... religion. If it falls short of that it doesn't mean it's not a bona fide religious process but it does mean that it is not first class. For instance -- there are some religions that teach us that God is great, God is the Supreme Creator and we should obey the laws of God, etc. and that's alright -- but that is not the highest conception. That is why Krishna consciousness is also described as the post graduate study of all other religious conceptions in the world. So there are two parts of the question; i.e. true vs. fake .. or bona fide vs. unbona fide .... and first class vs. second and third class.

    sa vai pumsam paro dharmo
    yato bhaktir adhoksaje
    ahaituky apratihatä
    yayätmä suprasidati

    "The supreme occupation [dharma] for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted to completely satisfy the self." Yato bhaktir adhoksaje. The word bhakti comes from the same root as bhaj. The test of a first-class religion is whether or not we are developing our love for God. If we practice religion with some ulterior motive, hoping to fulfill our material necessities, our religion is not first class but third class. It must be understood that first-class religion is that by which we can develop our love of Godhead. Ahaituky apratihatä. This perfect religion should be executed without ulterior motive or impediment. That is the yoga system recommended in Srimad-Bhägavatam and in this Sixth Chapter of Bhagavad-gita. That is the system of Krishna consciousness.

    SB 1.2.6
  • Baker
    maah!:
    The Acaryas call other religions "kaitava dharma" or cheating religions.

    "I have found that I myself tend to think in terms of such a distinction, and that this seems to be an obstacle on my path, so I'd like to look into it, to see how this obstacle can be overcome."

    Please tell us how thinking with distinction is an obstacle for you. "Intelligence means fine discrimination.' Srila Prabhupada.


    In short, I am afraid that I have taken to the "wrong religion". I can't objectivley justify why I have taken to GV, so it seems it is the wrong one.
  • VEDAVEDA
    What is your criteria for good and wrong then?
  • Baker
    "Objective justification". Which would require nothing less than omniscience ...

    I know, it is an absurd requirement for a human. Yet it is common in the West that religious people are expected to provide this sort of justification, or they are declared insane, or their views invalid, mere fantasies and delusions ...

    I just seem to be unable to see if there is another way to make valid choices, besides having obejctive jusitification for them.
  • portnoyportnoy
    Baker:

    Hey -- if it doesn't feel right -- come back when you're ready. Subjective reality may not even make sense but it's just that -- subjective. It's how you feel -- your gut feeling -- your intuition -- what's going on in your life at this particular juncture. I came to Krishna consciousness because in my heart of hearts -- in my gut -- I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that I had chanced upon the absolute truth. I had not a doubt and it was as if I was being drawn in like an iron filing to a powerful magnet. In my zealous early days I was convinced that all anybody needed to do was to hear or read one sentence -- one paragraph -- of Prabhupada's message and they would come aboard. I thought it was just a matter of time before my sister, my parents, all my friends, all the poets, philosophers, musicians, writers ... of my generation ... would have the same reaction I had. Well -- my sister did become a devotee shortly after I joined the mission but no -- my childhood friends, my so-called heros whose books and poems I had been reading and music I was listening to ---- they didn't all come swarming into the temple. That's when it hit me that this wasn't for everyone. I felt a kind of disappointment but at the same time felt incredibly fortunate -- as if I were among the chosen few.

    So the above summarizes my personal subjective experience when I first became aware of Srila Prabhupada, the Vedas, the philosophy of Krishna consciousness -- bhakti-yoag, etc etc. etc. I can't expect everyone to be like me. I can urge .. I can requset ... I can try my best to get others to appreciate .... but ultimately it's up to you and you alone. It seems that you have already made up your mind and that's that. There's not much more anybody can say. Sometimes a person would join the movement and after some tmie they decided to leave. They'd be sitting on the steps outside the temple having their crisis of faith -- not sure what to do. Devotees would one by one try to talk him/her into coming back inside and not going out there into "maya" -- or, as we called it "blooping." After awhile it became obvious that it didn't matter how many verses one quoted or how heartfelt one's advice or pleading was --- that person needed to leave. Maybe they would someday return or maybe they wouldn't. It was between that individual and God .. Krishna.

    Baker -- I wish you all the best in your endeavors and I hope that your journey does bring you to the path leading back to home, back to Godhead. Hare Krishna!
  • Baker
    portnoy:
    It seems that you have already made up your mind and that's that. There's not much more anybody can say.


    Thank you for your well wishes. But I have to disagree with you. I am quite sure that there is some philosophical aspect that I am not understanding properly and which I need to figure out before I can move on.[br]

    [br]I refuse to settle for the opinion that some people have of me - namely that I just lack some mystical something and that this is why I have so many troubles and questions.[br]

    [br]I spoke to a senior devotee once, about sixty years old, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada himself. And this devotee uttered this sentence: "Even if the path of bhakti isn't true, it is still a good way to live."[br]

    [br]That made me think. I don't want to be sixty years old, with over two decades of presumed devotional service, yet still say such things as "Even if the path of bhakti isn't true, it is still a good way to live."[br]

    [br]No, I do no want that on my deathbed, in the last moments of consciousness, after the heart had stopped beating, I would start to wonder whether I have wasted my life, or whether it has all been a sham and I should have taken to an altogether different religion.[br]

    [br]I am sorry if some people don't like my inquiries. In my opinion, it is better that I try to figure these things out, while my brain is still reasonably functional, as opposed to putting them off to an uncertain future and giving in to peer pressure.[br]
  • dweller-in-peace
    >Can there be "true" and "fake" religions, are there such?

    Different religions are different rungs of the same ladder.

    >What exactly do the trueness and fakeness pertain to? many Christians think that Hinduism, Buddhism and many others are "fake religions".

    Trueness and fakeness pertain to the ego of the followers of a religion. When a Christian says that christanity is great or a hindu says hinduism is great, he really doesn't mean that christianity is great or hinduism is great. In reality he wants to say that he is great. But it will not look nice if he says that he is great so his mind takes a different route and says that christianity is great or if he is a hindu he will say hinduism is great. And he is a follower of christianity so he is also great. So to prove himself great he makes christianity great. Because if christianity is not great and he is a follower of that religion, how can he be great? And christianity can be great only if other religions are fake. And the same applies to the followers of other religion, it doesn't really matter which religion one is following. The ego of the follower makes him to declare that the one which he is following is the greatest and others are fake.

    The christian has not even chosen christianity, it was just an accident that he was born to two people who were following christianity. But if christianity is not great how can he be great? Same with Hindus, moslems and all other followers. This is their mind and ego tricking them.

    The followers of different religions are fighting and killing each other, calling each other fake for last 2000 years and they will keep doing the same for next 2000 years as well. Religions hate each other, their followers hate each other, because they are fooled by their egos.

    >I refuse to settle for the opinion that some people have of me - namely that I just lack some mystical something and that this is why I have so many troubles and questions.

    Asking questions is the sign of intelligence, there is no problem with that. Buffaloes don't ask questions but humans they do. Srila Prabhupada was answering the questions of his followers continuously for 11 years.
  • portnoyportnoy
    Well great, Baker -- I hope you prove me wrong and that you are ready to become fully enlightened -- to jump into the ocean of the nectar of devotion. Maybe you just need some encouragement which is why you continue to ask relevant questions and interact with aspiring devotees on this website. All that's needed is a sincere desire and if we don't have a desire then we can have the desire to have a desire to aspire to aspire to have the desire to want to hope against hope to awaken our dormant love of God. Maybe you're very ready -- ready, willing and eager. That's wonderful. That's fabulous. It's not that devotees are into converting people -- it's that we want to share with everyone we meet the wonderful treasure we have found. Krishna consciousness is the secret of all secrets .. the king of all knowledge ... the purest and highest path of perfection ... and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization it is everlasting and joyfully performed. (Bhagavad-gita 9.2)
  • deena
    [quote] Baker: I just seem to be unable to see if there is another way to make valid choices, besides having obejctive jusitification for them.[/quote]

    There is a recommended way to make valid choices. The system is described by Shri Krishna in the Bhagavad-gita, which besides establishing pure devotional service as the highest benefit and duty, is a discourse on how to make choices on every issue/situation you confront. More than half of the Gita slokas Shri Krishna speaks are an explaination of one subject or another in terms of the four categories of ignorance, passion, goodness and pure goodness. This is a scientific system that, if you study it, assimilate it and see the world through it, empowers you to accurately assess anyone and everything in the world. You do not need to have any particular religious affiliation to use this system.

    This system is so successful that it was previoulsy used by great sages in determining who is the supreme God among Gods: "The plan decided upon by the sages was for Bhrgu to test which of the predominating deities possesses the quality of goodness in full." (Ch 89: Krishna Book). Even God was assessed using this system.

    So the answer to the question at hand lies in you assessing a religion against the criteria recommended by Shri Krishna in the Gita. Can you try it and get back to us with your conclusion?
  • VEDAVEDA
    > "Even if the path of bhakti isn't true, it is still a good way to live."

    This is what SP once answered to a reporter who asked "What would you do if it's proven Krsna doesn't exist?" SP chose to go along and stated the above. It means that bhaktiyoga is a honest and blissful way of life, better than any other path (karma, jnana, yoga). At the deathbed one won't be feeling his life was wasted.

    > whether I have wasted my life, or whether it has all been a sham and I should have taken to an altogether different religion.

    This fear comes from the 'one life' paradigm when one is afraid of the afterlife, having very vague idea about it. "If I choose a wrong religion, I'll be eternally condemned."
    You must have missed the link to our reincarnation article which deals with Biblical objection against r.:
    http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/reincarnation.htm
  • ccd
    baker:
    Thank you for your well wishes. But I have to disagree with you. I am quite sure that there is some philosophical aspect that I am not understanding properly and which I need to figure out before I can move on.[br][br][br]

    Philosophy is practical. At least eastern philosophy.[br]

    [br]
    baker:
    I refuse to settle for the opinion that some people have of me - namely that I just lack some mystical something and that this is why I have so many troubles and questions.[br][br][br]


    [br] Good that you want to get answers. That is practical![br][br]

    baker:
    I spoke to a senior devotee once, about sixty years old, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada himself. And this devotee uttered this sentence: "Even if the path of bhakti isn't true, it is still a good way to live."[br][br] Ha. The path of bhakti is true! It is the path of every true religion as well.


    [br]

    [br]
    baker:
    I am sorry if some people don't like my inquiries. In my opinion, it is better that I try to figure these things out, while my brain is still reasonably functional, as opposed to putting them off to an uncertain future and giving in to peer pressure.[br] [br][br]That IS devotional service - to ask questions. It is devotional service to answer them.
  • Baker
    VEDA:
    > "Even if the path of bhakti isn't true, it is still a good way to live."[br]

    This is what SP once answered to a reporter who asked "What would you do if it's proven Krsna doesn't exist?" SP chose to go along and stated the above. It means that bhaktiyoga is a honest and blissful way of life, better than any other path (karma, jnana, yoga). At the deathbed one won't be feeling his life was wasted.


    You will have to tell me more about this, please![br]

    [br]Surely Srila Prabhupada knew first-hand that Krishna exists and that the scriptures are correct?[br]

    [br]Are scriptures to be understood as merely provisional / instructional, a path to a goal, but not the final account of the truth?[br]

    [br]When it is stated "Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead" (or any other scriptural statement of is-ness) - what does that "is" mean, how is it to be understood?[br]

    [br]How can one possibly practice bhakti yoga with the outlook "Even if the path of bhakti isn't true, it is still a good way to live"?[br]

    [br]How can one, for example, chant, while having the outlook "Even if this isn't the ultimate right thing, it is still a good way to spend my time"?[br]

    [br]Is it not so that it is necessary to believe, to accept that the path of bhakti yoga as set out by Vedic scriptures and the disciplic succession, is true, as opposed to being merely a useful fabrication?[br]

    [br]Did Srila Prabhupada answer to that reporter primarily in a way he saw fit that the reporter would understand best, or does that answer represent his true position on the matter?[br]


    [br]
    > whether I have wasted my life, or whether it has all been a sham and I should have taken to an altogether different religion.

    [br]This fear comes from the 'one life' paradigm when one is afraid of the afterlife, having very vague idea about it. "If I choose a wrong religion, I'll be eternally condemned."
    You must have missed the link to our reincarnation article which deals with Biblical objection against r.:
    http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/reincarnation.htm


    My Christian conditioning is not to be underestimated ... I can read and explain about reincarnation until I am breathless, and a second later say "But I am still afraid this isn't so and I will burn in hell for all eternity."
    [br]
  • Baker
    dweller-in-peace:

    Trueness and fakeness pertain to the ego of the followers of a religion.


    Yes, I have been suspecting that the way a person speaks about their religion and the religions of other people has a lot to do with that person's ideas of how they want and should present themselves, in order to fulfill some particular agenda. This occured to me as I have noticed that the instructions various religionists have given me and other people for how to practice a religion and how to know the truth about it, seemed very different from the instructions they said they have followed in order to arrive at their present considerably advanced (" "?) religious status.
  • Baker
    deena:
    So the answer to the question at hand lies in you assessing a religion against the criteria recommended by Shri Krishna in the Gita. Can you try it and get back to us with your conclusion?


    Being somewhat familiar with the Bhagavad-gita, I can tell you right away that I think it probably delivers what it promises - provided that the person follows the instructions fully.[br]
    [br]I can also tell you right away that I don't think I am able to execute those instructions fully, nor do I know whether I will be able to do so in a foreseeable time. I see this as my failing.[br]
    [br]I am not complaining nor am I saying that the Bhagavad-gita is wrong or fake.[br]

    [br]My quandary is that of a person who is convinced that it is important to follow a true religion, but who is also aware of her shortcomings and that because of those shortcomings she therefore does not have the means to execute the process as prescribed by scriptures.[br]
    [br]What is such a person supposed to do, what attitudes should she have?[br]
    [br]She can't speak and act with certainty, but uncertainty is paralyzing.[br]
  • Baker
    ccd:

    Philosophy is practical. At least eastern philosophy.


    I agree. I have always thought philosophy is practical, perhaps the most practical kind of knowledge there is. Because when life gets hard, one has to be able to think clearly in order to act wisely.[br]


    [br]
    Ha. The path of bhakti is true! It is the path of every true religion as well.


    "True" in what sense?[br]


    [br]
    That IS devotional service - to ask questions. It is devotional service to answer them.


    As per BG 18.68?
  • ccd
    > "True" in what sense?

    In the sense of dharmah-religiosity; projjhita-completely rejected; kaitavah-covered by fruitive intention; atra-therein; -- as per the second verse of Srimad Bhagavatam or any 'other' true religion

    > As per BG 18.68?

    As per the first verse of the second chapter of the same Srimad Bhagavatam (and other places e.g. SB 1.2.5).
  • You seem unable to properly assimulate this spiritual culture ....bhaktine baker.Which in my humble experience is because you are not chanting 16 rounds of hare krishna.Or you are unable to serve eight hours A DAY, under a senior devotees guidance.After going to mangal arti and srimad bhagavatam class...naturally krishna gives his mercy....if you are steady and genuine.
    You certainly lack the aguarta-sukriti.....or pious merit that naturally comes by ''just.....doing it''.You fail to take the simple humble position .....to serve and allow krishna to take control of your future.Have you given up eating meat i wonder ......either way i can tell that......by yourself you are not a worthy recipient for lord chaitanya's mercy......because you think his devotees must perform to your criterion of what you expect spiritual life is!.......and it must be understandable in ''your minds'' demands!
    Sorry but you have contiunued to show you are merely ''cut from a pattern''.Just surrender!......it is very very simple!''Cut to a pattern'' means you fail to adjust even though sorrounded by well meaning genuine devotees......You are stubborn ,when surrender is very ....very simple.You bow down on the floor in front of sri krishna and cry out for him! You beg from deep within the core of your heart to please allow you to serve him!I have done this many times myself!But throw yourself down on the marble floor in front of all the devotees and just surrender !
    Cry some more and beg for sri chaitanya mahaprabhu's mercy.Become krishna's begger.......because bhaktine baker you are just not very smart!This is not about your interllectual mental reasoning .....it is wither krishna is moved by your sincerity........which obviously after i year of ''Shadow'' attempts you have failed to achieve his mercy!
  • This is the real thing....sanatana dharma.But first step is you must surrender!....otherwise stay locked up in maya's prison house!Such lack of sincerity is better suited for meat eater's religions ....like islam and christianity.Where they sin and repent every sunday!Use there guru as a door mat!Here you learn the philosophy and then surrender!......which you have failed to do so?This means you do not posses brahminical qualities or krishna's mercy.So just surrender....bow down and beg....for it! Simple !But crooked intelligence will fail to appreciate this sublime understanding.
  • portnoyportnoy
    What the hell is aguarta sukriti?

    In my 41 years as a disciple of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada I have never heard him preach like that. The fact that you exist, Sri Govinda Das -- and that you pretend that you speak for my spiritual master and the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya is a scary and disheartening thought. You are dangerous in your misrepresentation and that is why I continue to take a hard and harsh line with you and ask you repeatedly to please stay quiet. Don't write anything here anymore and don't preach on public forums. You have a lot of growing up to do and a lot of introspective soul searching before you hopefully mature out of this show bottle fanatical over zealous self righteous holier than thou personality you display shamelessly. Please ... please please please keep quiet. Hush. No more. You're embarrassing yourself and what's worse you are embarrassing any and all genuine followers and students of Srila Prabhupada in your horrific misrepresentation of his mood and teachings. Next time you bow down on the marble floor -- stay down. Don't get up. Maybe if you remain in that position for a few days or weeks or years you'll have a catharsis -- a breakthrough. That's wishful thinking but hope springs eternal where there is "aguarta sukriti."
  • Kula-pavana
    portnoy:

    In my 41 years as a disciple of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada I have never heard him preach like that. The fact that you exist, Sri Govinda Das -- and that you pretend that you speak for my spiritual master and the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya is a scary and disheartening thought. You are dangerous in your misrepresentation and that is why I continue to take a hard and harsh line with you and ask you repeatedly to please stay quiet. Don't write anything here anymore and don't preach on public forums. You have a lot of growing up to do and a lot of introspective soul searching before you hopefully mature out of this show bottle fanatical over zealous self righteous holier than thou personality you display shamelessly. Please ... please please please keep quiet. Hush. No more. You're embarrassing yourself and what's worse you are embarrassing any and all genuine followers and students of Srila Prabhupada in your horrific misrepresentation of his mood and teachings. Next time you bow down on the marble floor -- stay down. Don't get up. Maybe if you remain in that position for a few days or weeks or years you'll have a catharsis -- a breakthrough. That's wishful thinking but hope springs eternal where there is "aguarta sukriti."


    Seems to me that in your 41 years of discipleship you have learned very little of compassion your guru had for his disciples. I am embarassed just reading the above post. While Sri Govinda das sometimes writes controversial pieces, you are in no position to tell him to be quiet. You are not his guru and you do not have a patent on being a 'genuine follower and student of Srila Prabhupada'. ---------- Young devotees who read such exchanges have the right to wonder: "Is that what I'm going to sound like after practicing Krsna consciousness for 40 years?" ----------- Yikes! scary thought...
  • Baker
    portnoy:
    What the hell is aguarta sukriti?

    In my 41 years as a disciple of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada I have never heard him preach like that. The fact that you exist, Sri Govinda Das -- and that you pretend that you speak for my spiritual master and the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya is a scary and disheartening thought. You are dangerous in your misrepresentation and that is why I continue to take a hard and harsh line with you and ask you repeatedly to please stay quiet. Don't write anything here anymore and don't preach on public forums. You have a lot of growing up to do and a lot of introspective soul searching before you hopefully mature out of this show bottle fanatical over zealous self righteous holier than thou personality you display shamelessly. Please ... please please please keep quiet. Hush. No more. You're embarrassing yourself and what's worse you are embarrassing any and all genuine followers and students of Srila Prabhupada in your horrific misrepresentation of his mood and teachings. Next time you bow down on the marble floor -- stay down. Don't get up. Maybe if you remain in that position for a few days or weeks or years you'll have a catharsis -- a breakthrough. That's wishful thinking but hope springs eternal where there is "aguarta sukriti."


    Well, this is a free, open online forum, and everyone can have their say, at least to some extent.[br]

    [br]I am actually not sure whether sheltering or at least trying to shelter people from such preaching as Sri Govinda Das' is a good idea.[br]

    [br]I am actively making an effort and trying to see his preaching style in some positive way. I think it is a good exercise to control my mind and my tongue (or fingers) when I am preached to like that. I also try to see it as a challenge meant for myself to develop some basic independence in my spiritual practice, as opposed to seeking (too much) approval from others.[br]

    [br]As for whether it was Srila Prabhupada's mood to preach like that or not, and whether such preaching is a misrepresentation of his mood: I think this is for the more advanced to decide and act accordingly.[br]
    [br]I am actually glad to see such a mixture of ways of preaching, because it gives me a better idea of what to expect in ISKCON and what to get ready for.[br]
  • Baker
    Kula-pavana:
    Young devotees who read such exchanges have the right to wonder: "Is that what I'm going to sound like after practicing Krsna consciousness for 40 years?" ----------- Yikes! scary thought...


    This is true, though, such exchanges do make me fear whether even after decades of supposed devotional service, I am going to sound feisty like that. This fear makes me slow down and look into issues pertaining to the practice in more detail. Which, of course, in the eyes of some just makes me appear like an idle skeptic, unsurrendered and so on, earning me more of such criticism.
  • deena
    [quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] deena:[/cite]So the answer to the question at hand lies in you assessing a religion against the criteria recommended by Shri Krishna in the Gita. Can you try it and get back to us with your conclusion?[/quote]

    [br]My quandary is that of a person who is convinced that it is important to follow a true religion, but who is also aware of her shortcomings and that because of those shortcomings she therefore does not have the means to execute the process as prescribed by scriptures.[br]
    [br]What is such a person supposed to do, what attitudes should she have?[br]
    [br]She can't speak and act with certainty, but uncertainty is paralyzing.[br][/quote]

    That person is about to make a definte choice about their future: Remain forever paralysed with uncertainty, or try a recommended path. There is no escape: the responsibility is squarely on their shoulders. They are feeling the weight of responsibilty and are taking shelter of the easiest and path most travelled - do nothing and hope it all goes away. But that is not Shri Krishna's way. His way is "kṣudraḿ hṛdaya-daurbalyaḿ tyaktvottiṣṭha - Give up such petty weakness of heart and arise," (2.3) "uttiṣṭha kaunteya yuddhāya kṛta-niścayaḥ - Get up with determination and fight!" (2.37) But we balk at this, try to avoid it. It is too much pressure for us, we become "śoka-saḿvigna-mānasaḥ - mind overwhelmed with grief" (1.46), "sammūḍha-cetāḥ - bewildered at heart." We want to run away and not face the battle for our soul.

    Ultimately we most adopt the attitude of Arjuna and break free from our uncertainty: "He [Arjuna] could understand that his so-called knowledge was useless in driving away his problems, which were drying up his whole existence; and it was impossible for him to solve such perplexities without the help of a spiritual master like Lord Kṛṣṇa." (2.8 purport)
  • Baker
    VEDA:
    > "Even if the path of bhakti isn't true, it is still a good way to live."

    This is what SP once answered to a reporter who asked "What would you do if it's proven Krsna doesn't exist?" SP chose to go along and stated the above. It means that bhaktiyoga is a honest and blissful way of life, better than any other path (karma, jnana, yoga). At the deathbed one won't be feeling his life was wasted.


    Could you please provide the reference for where Srila Prabhupada said that?
  • Kula-pavana
    Baker:
    [quote]
    Kula-pavana:
    Young devotees who read such exchanges have the right to wonder: "Is that what I'm going to sound like after practicing Krsna consciousness for 40 years?" ----------- Yikes! scary thought...


    This is true, though, such exchanges do make me fear whether even after decades of supposed devotional service, I am going to sound feisty like that. This fear makes me slow down and look into issues pertaining to the practice in more detail. Which, of course, in the eyes of some just makes me appear like an idle skeptic, unsurrendered and so on, earning me more of such criticism.[/quote]

    There is nothing wrong with being a sceptic. Usually that is a sign of intelligence. Real truth is illuminating and does not have to be brainwashed or drilled into people. ------------------ As to the progress on the path.... It is up to you how well you will use your time spent on the practice of bhakti-yoga. I know quite a few very advanced disciples of Srila Prabhupada who are a great pleasure to associate with. They are my inspiration. I can also see how this process transformed me personally. I have become a much better person over the years (as hard as it may be to believe).
  • VEDAVEDA
    > Surely Srila Prabhupada knew first-hand that Krishna exists and that the scriptures are correct?

    Definitely

    > Are scriptures to be understood as merely provisional / instructional, a path to a goal, but not the final account of the truth?

    Sastras on earth are a small sample of sastras on higher planets...

    > When it is stated "Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead" (or any other scriptural statement of is-ness) - what does that "is" mean, how is it to be understood?

    That He fits the description of Bhagavan (six bhagas in full). See Wiki.

    > How can one possibly practice bhakti yoga with the outlook "Even if the path of bhakti isn't true, it is still a good way to live"?

    > How can one, for example, chant, while having the outlook "Even if this isn't the ultimate right thing, it is still a good way to spend my time"?

    Like a child, untouched by jnana. 8)

    > Is it not so that it is necessary to believe, to accept that the path of bhakti yoga as set out by Vedic scriptures and the disciplic succession, is true, as opposed to being merely a useful fabrication?

    No, even animals and plants get the benefit from Harinama, prasadam, etc. For a higher level of practice, yes.

    > Did Srila Prabhupada answer to that reporter primarily in a way he saw fit that the reporter would understand best, or does that answer represent his true position on the matter?

    The earlier. It was simply going along with the question.

    > Could you please provide the reference for where Srila Prabhupada said that?

    Can't find it. Probably it was told in the Prabhupada Memories series.
  • My dear Bhaktine baker please accept my kind regards for your wonderful future in krishna conciousness.When i was a young devotee i was set upon regularly by my nemesis devotee vrisha das adhikari prabhu.My temple commander who was like our hare krishna ''staff Sergent''.He was always attacking me that i was not up to it!He was a vastly learned devotee in my humble opinion whose caustic attitude made our temple run like a swiss watch.....it never missed a beat.He was always pushing and prodding the neophytes like myself to progress.....because his mood was we are in a war zone .Your spiritual life is always under attack from mayadevi once you attempt to become sincere.Once i truly hated him because i was so afraid of being unsuitable or just plain unqualified.He was the torrid side of my future ''guru''.....in the good cop ....bad cop scenario he was definitely the bad cop!Some thirty odd years later .....because of his training today i am doing my ''umpteeth''.....Christmas marathon to try and please my guru 's Srila tamala krishna goswami.....atma tattva prabhu.....bhavanada prabhu and his divne grace srila Prabhupada.I am blissfully engaged in sankirtan though i am surrounded by a large city atmosphere.I have full faith that by continually chanting my rounds i will always continue to serve them within this life and the next.My unusual mood is due to my sankirtan training and my ferocious desire to combat mayadevis.....the material energy's attempts to stop the preaching!For i am a product of the iskcon book distributer solider ....sankirtan mood to engage everyone in krishna's service.
  • Recently i heard vrish das ....had passed away! Gone on to the spiritual world .......i truly now miss him and feel a real loss.Though i never appreciated him then,i certainly do now!.........his mood was that ''we need to stop treating young devotees like wimps......limp fragile ''inept fools who will dissolve when they are tested''.Create some back bone.....some fire of sankirtan......accept what ever is favourable for my devotional service....and conversely reject what ever is unfavourable to serve krishna...But if the standards are low you will create ......couch potatoes......not book distributors or sankirtan devotees!Wimps who will be unable to give shelter to their wifes ...or husbands and their dependents.Hare krishna ....thank you for the genuine attempt to be a sincere devotee.
  • Actually Portnoy prabhu you are indeed worshipable......like my guru's who have succeeded in expanding the hare krishna movement all over the world.But don't worry prabhu.The foremost disciple of his divine grace .......Tamala krishna goswami maharaja was able to successfully engender his uniquely successful attitude and sankirtan spirit to all of us.As a consequence after you have passed on......we will continue your true legacy the ''disciplic succession''.Actually one of my godbrothers is personally accepting disciples now!We are indeed the senior devotees now.....because the few elderly Prabhupada disciples left..... now are no longer participating in the preaching....sadly.We are gradually dealing with the increased responsibilities since the Prabhupada disciples who were managers are replaced by younger fresher devotees.Actually there is only one Prabhupada disciple left in our country as a manager.Please accept my humble obeisances Portnoy prabhu.......Also when you yourself have passed on to the spiritual realm ,my attitude is that we will indeed bring back worshipping all our guru's on large golden vyasasan's ....with unlimited opulence.....of course on smaller vyasasan's than srila Prabhupada's.However can you imagine ten guru's being worshipped simualtaniously after srila Prabhupada....in our temples....Don't worry prabhu ...your surrender has indeed made us grateful!We will recreate this wonderful vision after your generation has gone home back to godhead!.....All glories to the Brahma madva sampradaya!
  • As my devotee son has just told me .....Prabhu you have made a mistake !It is the Brahma-madva gaudiya sampradaya.....so Portnoy prabhu please accept my humble obeisances and please bless me to attempt to share srila Prabhupada's true vision.Thank you prabhu.....''.vancha kalpa ....vaisnava namo namaha!.
  • portnoyportnoy
    Your visions for the future are not glorious and wonderful -- they are scary and dangerous.
    Rubber-stamped, voted in gurus by an illegitimate governing body with cheerleaders and crusaders like yourself pushing them on and zealously defending them to the last breath is not the way it's supposed to be and I have faith that it will all sort out by the grace of Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga.
    A disciple of a bona fide guru is one thing -- an obsequious sycophant of a pretender is another. There's a world of difference betewen the two.
  • portnoy:
    Your visions for the future are not glorious and wonderful -- they are scary and dangerous.
    Rubber-stamped, voted in gurus by an illegitimate governing body with cheerleaders and crusaders like yourself pushing them on and zealously defending them to the last breath is not the way it's supposed to be and I have faith that it will all sort out by the grace of Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga.
    A disciple of a bona fide guru is one thing -- an obsequious sycophant of a pretender is another. There's a world of difference betewen the two.


    How r they pretenders? SP said disciples can act as Acarya and Guru even if not qualified as Uttama or liberated soul.
    Ysvt.
  • portnoyportnoy
    Srila Prabhupada told us that it's okay to act as Acarya and guru even if we're not qualified? Where's your evidence that he said any such thing? Srila Prabhupada never appointed anybody to be Acarya. He told us to continue the mission as he taught and showed us ... and who will emerge succesful and self effulgent --- that will become apparent. He never appointed eleven zonal gurus and never instructed that the GBC should have some ecclesiastic authority to vote on who can and cannot be a guru. The whole thing is concoction starting with the lies and deviations that emerged immediately after the departure of His Divine Grace in 1977. I served in ISKCON from 1968 to 1978 and after pleading with my godbrothers to cease and desist the destructive path they were taking I had to leave. It was the most difficult decision I ever had to make but there was no other way. I continued to do what I could to spread Srila Prabhupada's teachings and distribute his books but I could no longer in good conscience advise people to join an ISKCON temple and accept some zonal appointed (pretender) guru. Some years later, after so many scandals and after thousands of us left the society an attempt at something called guru reform was tried but it only made matters worse. Rather than admit the mistakes and go back to square one -- instead of admitting that two plus two does not equal five they announced that from then on two plus two would equal six. Pretenders? Yes -- pretenders who have done a great disservice to their godbrothers and godsisters who flocked to Srila Prabhupada with love and devotion and helped him build ISKCON up into a great international spiritual movement meant to save the world from godlessness. Pretenders? That's putting it mildly.
  • Sorry to rain on your humble vision prabhu.....but we are no longer the small iskcon society which was present .....thirty odd years or so ago when your beloved spiritual master .....my param guru left.We are now a huge worldwide organisation which is moving on ....and on....and on!Even without us it is going on ....because it is the will of sri chaitanya mahaprabhu.!
  • portnoyportnoy
    Well goody for you. Maybe someday you'll catch up to the Catholic Church. While they hold their ecumenical councils to vote in the new pope -- ISKCON can hold its yearly elections to vote in new gurus to accommodate and facilitate all that wonderful growth --- IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.

    Sonny boy --- do I need a sledge hammer to make you understand that Srila Prabhupada's main conern was purity (is the force)? He said he would rather have one moonlike student than a thousand stars. During his final days with us he stressed over and over the idea of boiling the milk -- not expanding -- not being so concerned with quantity or recruiting so many new people -- but for his disciples (us) to mature and become pure. Do you know what that means -- boil the milk? Why don't you explain it to me so I know you actually get the meaning. English is your mother tongue -- isn't it? If so why am I having such a hard time communicating with you. Is it that you simply don't give a damn what Prabhupada's vision, mood, instructions and desires were for HIS ISKCON? Now it's not his anymore -- it belongs to a handful of my godbrothers who illegitimately usurped the reins of power and leadership (and finances) -- along with their cheerleading sycophanat followers (like yourself who seems to be waving the biggest and most colorful pom poms). You really do need to learn how to listen (or in this case read) before responding. It's painfully obvious that before you even digest and comprehend the information you are excitedly jumping onto your keyboard for yet another paid for political announcement.
  • Baker
    A fitting title for a thread ...
  • ccd
    Pornoy is 'the' moonlike student ?
  • portnoyportnoy
    Who the hell is Pornoy? If you wanna get clever and sarcastic at least watch your spelling ccd. It takes the wind right out of your sails. Okay -- now get the spelling right and make another smug comment to impress your audience.
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