Overall Maharaja seems to be saying the whole issue is not really a problem for most devotees.

But then I wondered, 'If it isn't really problem, then why all the effort to write such a comprehensive paper and present it?' It didn't add up.

Every time I see those words "initiating gurus" I have to wonder how this insanity ever became accepted as "what Srila Prabhupada wanted." The whole set up is a concoction and light years away from Srila Prabhupada's vision and instructions for his ISKCON society in his absence. What a sad state of affairs. No wonder that since 1977 there are thousands who finally figured out something wasn't right (especially when their zonal acarya or subsequent voted-in GBC sanctioned ISKCON diksha guru was caught with his pants down and relegated to the fallen guru retirement home which is next door to the halfway house for fallen sannyasis) and who feel betrayed and disillusioned --- and on the other end of the spectrum there are thousands of blind zealots who would follow their rubber stamped guru to the ends of the Earth. Anyway -- principles before personalities. It's not a matter of this or that personality -- the whole structure -- the entire concept -- the very foundation -- is WRONG and no amount of reforms or high level Mayapur meetings -- or seminars -- or proclamations -- can make it right. Two plus two equals four. It doesn't equal three and it doesn't equal five. If you've been trying to work out a complex problem but you began on the premise that two plus two equals five --- you have to eventually go back to the drawing board -- to square one. Erase everything on the board because there's no way to fix it without correcting the very first step and making sure that first step is in the right direction. Why is it that almost all of Srila Prabhupada's initiated disciples are no longer active in ISKCON? Is it because we're all a bunch of lazy idiots? No! It's because we saw that a handful of our godbrothers consolidated power, usurped control of the institution and became corrupt in their self-serving attempts to maintain the status quo even if that meant kicking out every single one of their godbrothers (senior godbrothers in many cases) if they didn't acquiesce to their lies. It will all become clear someday because the truth will emerge. If the dirt doesn't come out in the wash it will eventually come out in the rinse.

What are you talking about? I'm discussing oranges and then you come and give a dissertation about apples. I focused in on one thing -- the fact that of the approx. 5,000 of us who were initiated by Srila Prabhuapda between 1966 and 1977 --- approx. 85 to 90 percent of us either left or were thrown out in the years following Srila Prabhupada's departure because of the horrific deviations that jaded the entire institution.

To think that I don't know that some people leave due to management problems and some leave "the process of KC" is beyond naive -- it's an insult to my intelligence. You might want to read carefully a person's comment and then think about it for some time before you start typing.

Oh .. and you're telling me that the problems in early ISKCON dwarf the issues in "our movement today" ??? I don't even know how to address that and I think I should save my energy because a person who could make that statement would never understand or accept the truth no matter how clearly I tried to put it into words.

Kula-pavana Das. That's who you are? Kula-pavana Das. No -- the name doesn't ring a bell. Doesn't matter. From this last comment alone I get a pretty good picture of who you are.

Yeah -- I'm naive and you're a rocket scientist in the daytime and a Vedic scholar at night. Hey - maybe you'll get elected to become an initiating ISKCON guru if you're a good boy. Have patience. Your day will come.

My dear Prahladananda maharaja was practicing a ''diplomatic sidestep'' on our Deena.....but she intelligently was able to see the true reality.This is what happens when we try so hard to be ''consumerable'' in our speech......cheating in a light way.Because he is trained to ''double speak''....instead of straight forward brahminical speech.Which fails to allow you to be right in every situation.Always trying to be ''right'' in every situation though is what a corporate culture forces one to do .....But this institutional mentality fails when asked genuine questions by honest simple hearted devotees.

Kula pavanna prabhu speaks with genuine wisdom and simple maturity.........i also fail to understand how you promise to chant 16 rounds and follow srila Prabhupada's servants then you plain fail.......even if your guru falls .....like mine did.How shallow and spineless to just surrender to mayadevi.To just crawl away and give up! How utterly pathetic!.....Just ''cheaters in the guise'' of a devotee.
Better to see the ''genuine'' disciples men and women ,whose personal discipline enables them to keep the spiritual masters mission going forward despite the many problems and differculties. Those Prabhupada disciples i worship and love!....hare krishna.

portnoy:

Oh .. and you're telling me that the problems in early ISKCON dwarf the issues in "our movement today" ??? I don't even know how to address that and I think I should save my energy because a person who could make that statement would never understand or accept the truth no matter how clearly I tried to put it into words.

Look at the current Iskcon. Do you see cases of systemic child abuse and neglect? Do you see devotees collect money from criminal activities to support their temples? Do you see any activities that cause public scandals giving our movement a bad image? No you don't. Sure, there are still problems, but they are nowhere near as bad as those Iskcon had in the 70's.

Rasa-ji, no I do not buy the theory that somehow GBC 'lacks authority' - there is nobody limiting them, and they do not answer to any other authority. The problem is that GBC members often do not follow rules made by the GBC body - case in point are the financial accountability rules for example. But it is strictly their own fault, because as a body they lack the courage to enforce their own rules. It is not a case of GBC body versus initiating gurus - that is a red herring - it is a case of their own weakness. With power comes responsibility.

My dear rasa 108 prabhu....i fail to see how a united preaching front is necessarily the'' best formula'',if it does not allow individual guru's their own space to build their own preaching missions.Two spiritual masters have very different mellows of serving srila Prabhupada.When i was with jayapataka swami he was very very different mood in his unique vision.He many times quickly initiated disciples ......I think he has 5 thousand disciples at least but probably a lot more than that!.........Yet my siksa guru tamala krishna goswami had approximately only 1000 solid disciples and he was generally alot more conservative about taking disciples as he matured.Even though far far less disciples he personally new many intimately.......with a different emphasis completely.Yet they were profficent together in servicing srila Prabhupada's mission..
Iskcon will grow exstensively soon and will have to accomadate tens of thousands of disciples naturally......who like myself will naturally seek more nourishment from the personally ''present guru'' .And yes some might infact become bigger and more powerful than the present iskcon society.Which has huge room to grow to become a ''world super power'' religion.Some individual guru will naturally become quite substantial in their potency and as a result might even out grow the iskcon body management structure ......however such empowered individuals will attempt to work with their god brothers and devotee freinds naturally.Or they might seek a management structure which although is outside iskcon.......is peacefully working to preach srila Prabhupada's mission.Devamrita's team is an example of this.Some godbrothers of mine own , set up a substantial temple ''outside iskcon''......but have decided because of ''new Iskcon management ''change..... these devotees have since decided to move back within the iskcon fold again.They built their temple and rightfully wanted to keep control over their preaching environment and temple....Personally i find it lacks personalism when we hope to restrain the future preachers from expressing themselves .......some will grow exponentially more than others.Some who have grown up within iskcon like my sons have huge advantages ,merely because they have chanted 16 rounds since 6 years of age.They are now 14 years old and have little of the ''bad conditioning'' which was symtomatic of my sad non- devotee background and child hood.They should naturally kick on!.

I'm asked to look at the current ISKCON and how scandal free and crime free it has become. So ... how many of the elected gurus have been caught with their pants down -- or who are on medication or who live like princes? You know -- rather than try to answer that question by comparing present day ISKCON with -- well, I guess the ISKCON that existed when Srila Prabhupada was present (and to even suggest that ISKCON has improved after Srila Prabhupada departed is beyond offensive -- it's absurd) --- let me instead just give you a big picture sweeping response and here it is --- ISKCON ceased to exist after November 14, 1977. It ceased to exist when 11 of my godbrothers headed by Tamal announced that their ritvik status had transformed into full fledged diksha guru status. That was the end of ISKCON as we knew and loved it when Srila Prabhuapda was present. In his absence the usurping -- the great deviation and hoax -- had begun. After some time (after thousands of us could no longer tolerate the poisonous atmosphere created and if anybody spoke up or spoke out they were blacklisted, kicked out, shunned and even beaten -- or even killed) a so-called guru reform took place and suddenly by election gurus were springing up everywhere.

SO DON"T TELL ME THAT TODAY'S ISKCON IS PURER OR BETTER OR BIGGER ... THAN IT ONCE WAS. THERE IS NO ISKCON TODAY, KIDS.

Yes, many of Srila Prabhupada's disciples have matured very nicely and are his worthy successors to preach Krishna consciousness from his teachings and books --- not to be rubber stamped, on-the-job training diksha gurus. It's all wrong. It's SO wrong. It's incredibly horribly terribly wrong and yet most of you here just can't see it because your eyes are wide shut. I'm sorry for this and all I can do is try to tell you the truth. This isn't just me saying this. Those of you who joined ISKCON after 1977 only know the handful of Prabhupada's disciples who continued on in ISKCON but they are a small minority --- a tiny percentage of thsoe of us who left. Why did most of us leave? Ask yourself that? Do you have any idea how many wonderful Prabhupada disciples are existing in the ISKCON diaspora? Your vision is so limited to the propaganda that you so want to believe and so want to accept as being the plan and vision of Srila Prabhupada -- but sadly it IS NOT. It just is not. I'm sorry to be the messenger with the bad news. When the acarys disappears his mission becomes chaotic and a dark cloud descends. It's nothing new and it's actually prophetic. Krishna has an all good plan and everything will come out eventually but for now --- don't be telling me how terrific ISKCON is today based on numbers and dollars and disciples and whatever other data you have. That is not the criteria for success, what to speak of purity. There are some people participating on this website that are so in the dark it's scary. Wake up! Jiv jago!

portnoy:

SO DON"T TELL ME THAT TODAY'S ISKCON IS PURER OR BETTER OR BIGGER ... THAN IT ONCE WAS. THERE IS NO ISKCON TODAY, KIDS.

When was the last time you went to an Iskcon temple, sat with the devotees to take prasadam, talked to the sankirtan party coming back from the field, went out on the street with them on a harinam?

You're missing the point. Srila Prabhupada was, is and always will be a pure devotee of the Lord. You can't compare Srila Prabhupada accepting disciples and the accepting of disciples on the part of those who claim they are gurus by appointment or election. For some strange reason this crucial point -- the main thing -- seems to escape some of you. You want to talk in terms of shaved heads or expansion or think for some reason that whether I have recently gone to an ISKCON temple and sat down to eat has anything to do with anything. I guess I'm just not getting through. It's like a brick wall that just won't give. Forget it. You're right. I don't know jack. All's well in ISKCON today. There is a catalog of gurus that newcomers can choose from and Srila Prabhupada is very pleased with all that is going on in his name. If you feel some need to think like that and argue with me then it's your right as an independent living entity. I can't think and see for you. You need to see through the eyes of the Sastra and take advice from seniors --- but the problem is that the seniors you need to be hearing from are not scheduled to give Bhagavatam class tomorrow morning. We've all been kicked out -- evicted from our father's house by our very misdirected and ill-motivated godbrothers.

Well -- if it don't come out in the wash it'll come out in the rinse and when it all hits the fan maybe you'll remember some nut named Portnoy who told ya so.

Goodbye and Good Luck to all of you. Hare Krishna! All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga!

I am very sorry portnoy prabhu.....i never personally met srila Prabhupada.And yes my world might have been considerably different had i been his initiated disciple.However i am a follower of his disciples and even though my first guru bhavananda fall down....fortunately iskcon has provided me with several other wonderful guru's to take shelter of.Of which i am eternally grateful.As a representative of the next generation of followers i am not in a position to change how things turned out!....My intelligence tells me that many of iskcons current problems like the ''ritvik''controversy is merely a natural reaction from the many ''godbrothers unable to fit within'' the corporate structure of the fast moving iskcon worldwide structure!
This it seems is the unfortunate case to which my dear ''Portnoy prabhu'' finds himself in.My generation are now 25-35 year devotees,many of whom are now in positions of management,which force us to make certain decisions on who should stay within the ''precincts of the temple preaching''.....and who should remain outside!.Unfortunately mant senior devotees are unable to move within the present environment quickly enough or able to preach within the current preaching domain.There ''personal problems'' are indeed unimportant in the total picture,but are repeatedly brought out in the most inopportune moments.Exhibiting there immaturity and inability to comply with the present preaching mood of iskcon and sadly are no longer able to be ''non-envious ''in their veiws.Managers are then faced with the extremely differcult problem of removing older devotees .....because they seem intent on attacking their ''own spiritual masters preaching mission''.This is the exact problem my generation is faced with.....much of this is of ''no creation of our service or our intentions''.We are merely the next generation......But we merely accept what ever is favourable for our devotional service....and reject what ever is unfavourable in our humble attempts to please...Srila Prabhupada ....and his servants....your godbrothers....My dear portnoy prabhu......my many guru's.

You still don't get it. ISKCON was sidelined in 1977 when Tamal led the charge and the zonal guru catastrophe ruined everything. He even admitted it to us in Topanga Canyon 30 years ago right after he was censured by his peers for making a move toward placing himself as the only -- or most important -- successor to Srila Prabhupada. He wanted the whole shebang -- wasn't satisfied with only one eleventh of the pie. Tamal and I were good friends. I was close with all of them. They were and are my brothers -- my alumni. With Tamal having a catharsis of honesty and atonement and after I had long talks with Rameswara who agreed with me that it was best just to admit that it was all a mistake, apologize and undo the damage as much as possible -- I thought there might be some hope. Unfortunately the status quo won the day and it was back to business as usual with stupid arguments about how many inches off the ground the vyasa asanas of the "new gurus" should be. It was all a horrible mistake and the lie just kept being perpetuated. Instead of being honest and inviting all thier godbrothers and sisters back they decided that they were too dug in and it was then that Rabinda Swarup came up with another concoction in an attempt to clean up the mess. Instead of cleaning and correcting, he and his cronies made a bigger mess. Your relative considerations about Bhavananda falling away but then another ISKCON guru came to save you are insane. It's all part of your imagination. By putting forth the nonsense that a diksha guru can be appointed, selected, elected .... automatically disqualifies them from jump street. That's not how it works. Read the manual inside the package. You can have all the siksa gurus you want little kiwi guy but you need to get clear on what and who is a diksha guru -- what and who is an acarya -- how they manifest or emerge .... and stop all your show bottle talk about jettison preaching and more sincere sadhus in ISKCON today yada yada yada. You sound like a nutcase fanatic. Don't be afraid to think. What are you defending? Do you even know what you're talking about? You are the poster boy of the upa-ISKCON -- the shadow organization that goes by the name of ISKCON. The real ISKCON only exists in the hearts and minds of the diaspora comprised of Srila Prabhupada's sons and daughters who were evicted from our home unceremoniously and criminally. Maybe all this is over your head. I'm sure you will just respond with the same rhetoric. You have the nerve to bully people like Baker and Rodney --criticizing and chastising them and telling them that they are insincere and have no faith and blah blah blah while you continue to plaster this website with your egotistical, narrow minded immature garbage. You really are an obnoxious son of a gun.

Tell you what ..... since I know you're going to come right back at me with more of the same --- I'll make this my last communication with you. In that way you can get the last word which you seem to have a need for in just about every single thread. By the way -- are you going for the Guinnses Book of World Records for posting on Pariprashnena?

There is no preaching force like the Acarya-Thakur. U have no idea!
Ysvt.

There are so many Vaisnavas in ISKCON. Hard to imagine and it is all credit to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.

All r Vaisnava in Iskcon accordingly.

Only One Full Moon-The principle that is Sat-Guru.

THE MAJESTIC.

Ysvt.

Sat guru just means a spiritual teacher, unlike teachers (gurus) of logic, music or astronomy. All true disciples of Prabhupada are true gurus by his mercy, just as he is a true guru by the order of Mahaprabhu.

ccd:

Sat guru just means a spiritual teacher, unlike teachers (gurus) of logic, music or astronomy. All true disciples of Prabhupada are true gurus by his mercy, just as he is a true guru by the order of Mahaprabhu.

To a degree that might be true. However Vaisnava-Thakur belongs to a special different category beyond insufficient guides.
Ysvt.

Acarya-Thakur is not only Guru but yes is the foremost." One SHOULD be intelligent enough....Uttama"

Yea,it is only when we can start coming off the Kanistha stage that we can become intelligent enough in this way. But as soon as we r qualified through desire etc immediately that topmost sufficient guidence will manifest. Like that!
Ysvt.

portnoy:

How dare you pretend to know what Srila Prabhupada wanted? You are a brainwashed jackass.

I pretend to know just like you pretend to know. What makes you a better brainwashed jackass? do you have some sort of a patent on the correct interpretation? If so, please prove it. Prabhupada's instructions are being argued over by various groups of his followers, with each one claiming to be right.

ccd:

All true disciples of Prabhupada are true gurus by his mercy, just as he is a true guru by the order of Mahaprabhu.

Erroneous comparison. U have no idea.

Not by order alone is such Acaryas True Guru. UNCOMMON QUALIFICATION.

The actual Spiritual Master means Sakti-avesa-avatars by their very definition,fully enlightened beings awakened to the self etc.

Only a fully perfected sisya might be eligible for such comparison. ONE FULL MOON.

Great soul,very rare.

Confidential.

He whose only teaching is humility greater than that of a blade of grass, said-"By My command being guru save this land!" In this instance Mahaprabhu Himself has given the command. His command being "Perform the duty of the guru, even as I do it Myself. Also convey this command to whom-so-ever you chance to meet." Caitanyadeva says, "Tell them these very words, viz. By My command being Guru save this land. Deliver the people from their foolishness." - that is the qual of BSST

you are mistaken that SP wanted ONLY one moon...

11 November, 1967 to Brahmananda, "I do not want crowd of Kirtananandas but I want a single soul like Brahmananda, Mukunda, Rayarama, and Satsvarupa. The same example is always applicable that one moon is sufficient for the night as not thousands of stars...Without being empowered by Krishna, nobody can preach Krishna Consciousness. It is not academic qualification or financial strength which helps in these matters, but it is sincerity of purpose which helps us always. Therefore, I wish that you will remain in charge of New York, let Satsvarupa be in charge of Boston, Let Mukunda be in charge of San Francisco....



Ekas candras tamo hanti na ca tarah sahasrasah. One moon is complete to drive away the darkness of night, not millions of stars required. What these millions of stars can do? One moon is sufficient. So our propaganda is to create one moon. You see? But fortunately, by Krsna's grace, many moonlike boys and girls have come to me. You see? Many moons. (chuckles) I was thinking of having only one moon, but Krsna... I am hopeful that there are many moons, and in future they'll be doing very nice. This is para-upakara. To spread this Krsna consciousness movement is the best service to the humanity. Please try to understand this.


Please try to understand this.

But though you are inept....do not worry prabhu.Iskcon's guru's are empowered!The sublime nature of srila Prabhupadfa's legacy....His disciplic succession is indeed expanding!Your time is over now.....thank you for your many years of wonderful service.Because of your sacrifice prabhu.....we have literally many ''qualified guru's ''to take the future generations ....back home back to godhead!Forfilling the desire of his divine grace Srila Prabhupada and his wonderful GBC.

>we have literally many ''qualified guru's ''to take the future generations ....back home back to godhead!

Bulls**t Srigovinda, your gurus are dying like a dog in crash, and their hearts and brains are failing, imo they are going to hell because of their offenses to all those devotees who spent the prime of their life in strengthening ISKCON but in the end got kicked out by these bogus gurus. These bogus pieces of crap can not deliver their followers.