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Philosophy: Are there still ISKCON leaders that only co-operate as long as they can retain their own autonomy?

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      CommentAuthorrasa108
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2009
     
    I was reading an interesting paper by Prahladananda Swami written in 2006 where he talks about simultaneous membership and autonomy in ISKCON:

    "Presently the GBC Body lacks authority. Some of its leading members are initiating gurus who do not want to surrender their high degree of autonomy in the Society. Some leaders in ISKCON cooperate with the Society only as long as they can retain their own autonomy. Many second-generation disciples whose gurus have fallen down have lost faith in ISKCON authorities. On the other hand, some disciples think that it is only their guru who will save them."

    From http://www.dandavats.com/wp-content/uploads/Duties_of_Guru_and_GBC.doc
    • CommentAuthordeena
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2009
     
    I asked Prahladananda Swami the same quesion. Here is his response:

    ---------- Forwarded Message ----------

    Letter PAMHO:12952535 (89 lines)
    From: Prahladananda Swami
    Date: 25-Jan-07 22:46 (06:46 +0800)
    Subject: Interview questions

    > 7. You recently presented a thought-provoking and comprehensive article at
    > the Iskcon European Leaders convention clarifying the role of Guru in
    > relation to the GBC and the management of Iskcon. In that article you
    > claim that some of the GBC's leading members are initiating gurus who do
    > not want to surrender their high degree of autonomy in the Society. By
    > what symptoms do we recognise such a person and what should we do if we
    > recognise such a person?

    For most of the devotees within the society it is not a problem, but
    the leaders they should see that the gurus are cooperating with the
    authority structure set up by Srila Prabhupada.

    > 8. You stated that historically Iskcon gurus have not followed
    > Prabhupada's management plan and therefore have a tendency to divert
    > resources from Prabhupada's mission. Does this apply today, to the Perth
    > yatra? (OR, Should the Perth yatra be concerned about this issue?)

    I don't think so.

    > 9. You claimed that after Prabhupada's disappearance, some of the
    > initiating spiritual masters falsely claimed that they had become perfect
    > uttama-adhikari Vaisnavas. Do we need to be aware of the same tendency
    > nowadays or has the danger passed? By what symptoms do we recognise a
    > person posing as an advanced devotee?

    I don't think so.

    > > Did you answer 'I don't think so' to 'Do we need to be aware of the same
    > > tendency nowadays?," or to "Has the danger passed?"

    As long as we are conditioned souls, that tendency will be there.
    It can only be checked by sincere cooperation to spread the sankirtan
    movement.

    Hope all is well.
    Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada!
    Prahladananda Swami
    Thankful People: rasa108
    • CommentAuthordeena
    • CommentTimeDec 1st 2009
     
    Overall Maharaja seems to be saying the whole issue is not really a problem for most devotees.

    But then I wondered, 'If it isn't really problem, then why all the effort to write such a comprehensive paper and present it?' It didn't add up.
    •  
      CommentAuthorrasa108
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2009
     
    >For most of the devotees within the society it is not a problem, but
    >the leaders they should see that the gurus are cooperating with the
    >authority structure set up by Srila Prabhupada.

    I can see that Prahladananda Maharaja is expressing that there is indeed a problem and that should be corrected by the leaders to make sure initiating gurus are co-operating together under the GBC authority structure....is it possible?
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2009 edited
     
    Every time I see those words "initiating gurus" I have to wonder how this insanity ever became accepted as "what Srila Prabhupada wanted." The whole set up is a concoction and light years away from Srila Prabhupada's vision and instructions for his ISKCON society in his absence. What a sad state of affairs. No wonder that since 1977 there are thousands who finally figured out something wasn't right (especially when their zonal acarya or subsequent voted-in GBC sanctioned ISKCON diksha guru was caught with his pants down and relegated to the fallen guru retirement home which is next door to the halfway house for fallen sannyasis) and who feel betrayed and disillusioned --- and on the other end of the spectrum there are thousands of blind zealots who would follow their rubber stamped guru to the ends of the Earth. Anyway -- principles before personalities. It's not a matter of this or that personality -- the whole structure -- the entire concept -- the very foundation -- is WRONG and no amount of reforms or high level Mayapur meetings -- or seminars -- or proclamations -- can make it right. Two plus two equals four. It doesn't equal three and it doesn't equal five. If you've been trying to work out a complex problem but you began on the premise that two plus two equals five --- you have to eventually go back to the drawing board -- to square one. Erase everything on the board because there's no way to fix it without correcting the very first step and making sure that first step is in the right direction. Why is it that almost all of Srila Prabhupada's initiated disciples are no longer active in ISKCON? Is it because we're all a bunch of lazy idiots? No! It's because we saw that a handful of our godbrothers consolidated power, usurped control of the institution and became corrupt in their self-serving attempts to maintain the status quo even if that meant kicking out every single one of their godbrothers (senior godbrothers in many cases) if they didn't acquiesce to their lies. It will all become clear someday because the truth will emerge. If the dirt doesn't come out in the wash it will eventually come out in the rinse.
    Thankful People: manasi_seva
    • CommentAuthorKula-pavana
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2009 edited
     
    portnoy: No wonder that since 1977 there are thousands who finally figured out something wasn't right...
    I would say that the 'dropout rate' in Iskcon now is not any greater than it was pre-1977. Devotees leave for a wide variety of reasons. Being disappointed in the leadership is one thing, leaving the process of KC is something else. There were plenty of management problems in early Iskcon as well - huge problems, completely dwarfing the issues our movement faces today. Blaming GBC for not being perfect today is extremely naive. It never was perfect...
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2009 edited
     
    What are you talking about? I'm discussing oranges and then you come and give a dissertation about apples. I focused in on one thing -- the fact that of the approx. 5,000 of us who were initiated by Srila Prabhuapda between 1966 and 1977 --- approx. 85 to 90 percent of us either left or were thrown out in the years following Srila Prabhupada's departure because of the horrific deviations that jaded the entire institution.

    To think that I don't know that some people leave due to management problems and some leave "the process of KC" is beyond naive -- it's an insult to my intelligence. You might want to read carefully a person's comment and then think about it for some time before you start typing.

    Oh .. and you're telling me that the problems in early ISKCON dwarf the issues in "our movement today" ??? I don't even know how to address that and I think I should save my energy because a person who could make that statement would never understand or accept the truth no matter how clearly I tried to put it into words.

    Kula-pavana Das. That's who you are? Kula-pavana Das. No -- the name doesn't ring a bell. Doesn't matter. From this last comment alone I get a pretty good picture of who you are.

    Yeah -- I'm naive and you're a rocket scientist in the daytime and a Vedic scholar at night. Hey - maybe you'll get elected to become an initiating ISKCON guru if you're a good boy. Have patience. Your day will come.
    Thankful People: ccd
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2009 edited
     
    portnoy:What are you talking about? I'm discussing oranges and then you come and give a dissertation about apples. I focused in on one thing -- the fact that of the approx. 5,000 of us who were initiated by Srila Prabhuapda between 1966 and 1977 --- approx. 85 to 90 percent of us either left or were thrown out in the years following Srila Prabhupada's departure because of the horrific deviations that jaded the entire institution.
    Lies, damned lies, and statistics all in one...I think this argument, being a lie is so obvious, that it is hard to imagine how naíve one must be put it forward. If your name rings a bell please tell us pornoy... it will be fun to hear the bells and whistles of early disciple who was kicked out... You get my thanks for being so obvious(ly) deceitful.
    • CommentAuthorKula-pavana
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2009 edited
     
    portnoy:I focused in on one thing -- the fact that of the approx. 5,000 of us who were initiated by Srila Prabhuapda between 1966 and 1977 --- approx. 85 to 90 percent of us either left or were thrown out in the years following Srila Prabhupada's departure because of the horrific deviations that jaded the entire institution.
    I call this statement both inaccurate and naive. I joined in 1979 in England and over the years I saw the activities of Prabhupada's disciples up close and personal. They were the ones doing the deceiving - the new crop of devotees had very little power in the authoritarian Iskcon and was not spoiled by the crooked ways their 'authorities' learned in the 70's. I am sure that some of Prabhupada's disciples indeed left the movement shocked at the deviations of their high ranking godbrothers or were kicked out by the crooks in charge, but these cases were a SMAL MINORITY in my observation. For example: WHO EXACTLY left New Vridavan out of such noble shock during Kirtanananda's reign? I went there in late '80s and the entire show was run by... surprise, surprise... very numerous Prabhupada's disciples. ----------------- Let's face it... Iskcon was always burning through new converts at a very high rate - even during Srila Prabhupada's presence - mismanagement and deviations were just as bad in the 70's as they were in the 80's. Folks like you suffer from an acute case of selective memory. I much prefer Iskcon of today from Iskcon of 1979. ------ Over the years I also met a lot of good disciples of SP - both inside and outside Iskcon - many are still very actively preaching and I support them all.
  10.  
    portnoy: Oh .. and you're telling me that the problems in early ISKCON dwarf the issues in "our movement today" ??? I don't even know how to address that and I think I should save my energy because a person who could make that statement would never understand or accept the truth no matter how clearly I tried to put it into words.
    Look at the current Iskcon. Do you see cases of systemic child abuse and neglect? Do you see devotees collect money from criminal activities to support their temples? Do you see any activities that cause public scandals giving our movement a bad image? No you don't. Sure, there are still problems, but they are nowhere near as bad as those Iskcon had in the 70's.
    Thankful People: rasa108
    •  
      CommentAuthorrasa108
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2009 edited
     
    >Look at the current Iskcon. Do you see cases of systemic child abuse and neglect? Do you see devotees collect money from criminal activities to support their temples? >Do you see any activities that cause public scandals giving our movement a bad image?

    Many aspects have certainly improved and there are preventative systems in place to ward off future abuse etc....getting back to the original question - is it within the power and capability of the leaders of the GBC to bring into line certain spiritual masters who are operating within ISKCON but maintaining autonomy a) Without committing offenses - b) To effectively form a united preaching front that dissolves the autonomy issue
  12.  
    Rasa-ji, no I do not buy the theory that somehow GBC 'lacks authority' - there is nobody limiting them, and they do not answer to any other authority. The problem is that GBC members often do not follow rules made by the GBC body - case in point are the financial accountability rules for example. But it is strictly their own fault, because as a body they lack the courage to enforce their own rules. It is not a case of GBC body versus initiating gurus - that is a red herring - it is a case of their own weakness. With power comes responsibility.
  13.  
    sri_govinda_das: Iskcon will grow exstensively soon and will have to accomadate tens of thousands of disciples naturally......who like myself will naturally seek more nourishment from the personally ''present guru'' .And yes some might infact become bigger and more powerful than the present iskcon society.Which has huge room to grow to become a ''world super power'' religion.Some individual guru will naturally become quite substantial in their potency and as a result might even out grow the iskcon body management structure ......however such empowered individuals will attempt to work with their god brothers and devotee freinds naturally.Or they might seek a management structure which although is outside iskcon.......is peacefully working to preach srila Prabhupada's mission.
    I see it very much along the same lines. There is much good happening in Iskcon... and outside Iskcon as well. Many of SP disciples have matured very nicely and are his worthy successors.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2009 edited
     
    I'm asked to look at the current ISKCON and how scandal free and crime free it has become. So ... how many of the elected gurus have been caught with their pants down -- or who are on medication or who live like princes? You know -- rather than try to answer that question by comparing present day ISKCON with -- well, I guess the ISKCON that existed when Srila Prabhupada was present (and to even suggest that ISKCON has improved after Srila Prabhupada departed is beyond offensive -- it's absurd) --- let me instead just give you a big picture sweeping response and here it is --- ISKCON ceased to exist after November 14, 1977. It ceased to exist when 11 of my godbrothers headed by Tamal announced that their ritvik status had transformed into full fledged diksha guru status. That was the end of ISKCON as we knew and loved it when Srila Prabhuapda was present. In his absence the usurping -- the great deviation and hoax -- had begun. After some time (after thousands of us could no longer tolerate the poisonous atmosphere created and if anybody spoke up or spoke out they were blacklisted, kicked out, shunned and even beaten -- or even killed) a so-called guru reform took place and suddenly by election gurus were springing up everywhere.

    SO DON"T TELL ME THAT TODAY'S ISKCON IS PURER OR BETTER OR BIGGER ... THAN IT ONCE WAS. THERE IS NO ISKCON TODAY, KIDS.

    Yes, many of Srila Prabhupada's disciples have matured very nicely and are his worthy successors to preach Krishna consciousness from his teachings and books --- not to be rubber stamped, on-the-job training diksha gurus. It's all wrong. It's SO wrong. It's incredibly horribly terribly wrong and yet most of you here just can't see it because your eyes are wide shut. I'm sorry for this and all I can do is try to tell you the truth. This isn't just me saying this. Those of you who joined ISKCON after 1977 only know the handful of Prabhupada's disciples who continued on in ISKCON but they are a small minority --- a tiny percentage of thsoe of us who left. Why did most of us leave? Ask yourself that? Do you have any idea how many wonderful Prabhupada disciples are existing in the ISKCON diaspora? Your vision is so limited to the propaganda that you so want to believe and so want to accept as being the plan and vision of Srila Prabhupada -- but sadly it IS NOT. It just is not. I'm sorry to be the messenger with the bad news. When the acarys disappears his mission becomes chaotic and a dark cloud descends. It's nothing new and it's actually prophetic. Krishna has an all good plan and everything will come out eventually but for now --- don't be telling me how terrific ISKCON is today based on numbers and dollars and disciples and whatever other data you have. That is not the criteria for success, what to speak of purity. There are some people participating on this website that are so in the dark it's scary. Wake up! Jiv jago!
    Thankful People: manasi_seva
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2009 edited
     
    Okay -- who will be the first to unmask me and reveal the envious demon within? Come on --- load the ammunition. Hit me with your best shot -- fire away. Oh -- and by the way -- NO, I am not a ritvik person who believes the eleven should have continued initiating disciples on behalf of and for Srila Prabhupada. After his departure Srila Prabhupada remained available as siksa guru for everyone and for all time but he was no longer available to give diksha. But then -- what about initiating the newcomers. Well what about it? This is an eternal process. What was the big rush? Were we running an assembly line churning out Sanskrit names and three strands of neck beads to all who walked through the door of our centers? Srila Prabhupada didn't take formal initiation until many many years after he first met his guru maharaja. Meeting one's eternal diksha guru is a matter of the heart. By the mercy of the Lord one eventually comes into contact with his spiritual master and by the mercy of the guru the seed of bhakti is planted in his heart. Prabhupada wanted all of us to become leaders and even gurus but none of us were anywhere near ready nor qualified. Just by saying "I want you all to become clean" doesn't automatically make us clean. We have to first bathe properly.

    Due to major deviations and the unrepentant and dishonest continuation of these deviations and disobedience of Srila Prabhupada --- your present day ISKCON is disqualified. That doesn't mean sincere souls aren't finding Prabhupada through the centers and the literature but that is the incredible potency and magic of the pure devotee. People have found Krishna consciousness by picking a copy of Srimad-Bhagavatam out of the trash can at some airport. The credit wasn't with the trash can -- it was with the pure devotee and his sincere followers that the book found its way into the hands of a desiring and deserving soul. Please people -- open your eyes. I urge you for your own good and the good of all. If I have to rattle some cages it's worth it if I can get one person to see what's going on and rather than be part of the problem -- become part of the cure. The Internet is a public place and this website is just one of so many that appear when a curious person -- or a seeker of the truth -- types a few words into his search engine. That's why I am concerned with what is said here and I wlil go after the most vocal of you who are speaking what is not the truth of what went on and what is going on. To be wrong is one thing. To be loud and wrong is another.
    Thankful People: manasi_seva
    • CommentAuthorKula-pavana
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2009 edited
     
    portnoy: SO DON"T TELL ME THAT TODAY'S ISKCON IS PURER OR BETTER OR BIGGER ... THAN IT ONCE WAS. THERE IS NO ISKCON TODAY, KIDS.
    When was the last time you went to an Iskcon temple, sat with the devotees to take prasadam, talked to the sankirtan party coming back from the field, went out on the street with them on a harinam?
  17.  
    portnoy: Due to major deviations and the unrepentant and dishonest continuation of these deviations and disobedience of Srila Prabhupada --- your present day ISKCON is disqualified.
    There were plenty of deviations and disobedience to Srila Prabhupada in pre 1977 Iskcon as well... still, it was Iskcon then, and it is Iskcon now - warts and all, good and bad. Srila Prabhupada hand picked all the leaders of Iskcon you now accuse of treason. Do you think he was wrong in every single case? ------------------ And tell me please, who started 'an assembly line churning out Sanskrit names and three strands of neck beads' to people others (their godbrothers) thought less than qualified? Do you see any similarities? You should. ----------- I joined with my eyes open and I never closed them. I am not a current GBC cheerleader, but I try to see both good and bad in what people do.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2009 edited
     
    You're missing the point. Srila Prabhupada was, is and always will be a pure devotee of the Lord. You can't compare Srila Prabhupada accepting disciples and the accepting of disciples on the part of those who claim they are gurus by appointment or election. For some strange reason this crucial point -- the main thing -- seems to escape some of you. You want to talk in terms of shaved heads or expansion or think for some reason that whether I have recently gone to an ISKCON temple and sat down to eat has anything to do with anything. I guess I'm just not getting through. It's like a brick wall that just won't give. Forget it. You're right. I don't know jack. All's well in ISKCON today. There is a catalog of gurus that newcomers can choose from and Srila Prabhupada is very pleased with all that is going on in his name. If you feel some need to think like that and argue with me then it's your right as an independent living entity. I can't think and see for you. You need to see through the eyes of the Sastra and take advice from seniors --- but the problem is that the seniors you need to be hearing from are not scheduled to give Bhagavatam class tomorrow morning. We've all been kicked out -- evicted from our father's house by our very misdirected and ill-motivated godbrothers.

    Well -- if it don't come out in the wash it'll come out in the rinse and when it all hits the fan maybe you'll remember some nut named Portnoy who told ya so.

    Goodbye and Good Luck to all of you. Hare Krishna! All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga!
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2009
     
    Hare Krsna. Sri Sri Guru Gauranga jayatah.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
     
    You still don't get it. ISKCON was sidelined in 1977 when Tamal led the charge and the zonal guru catastrophe ruined everything. He even admitted it to us in Topanga Canyon 30 years ago right after he was censured by his peers for making a move toward placing himself as the only -- or most important -- successor to Srila Prabhupada. He wanted the whole shebang -- wasn't satisfied with only one eleventh of the pie. Tamal and I were good friends. I was close with all of them. They were and are my brothers -- my alumni. With Tamal having a catharsis of honesty and atonement and after I had long talks with Rameswara who agreed with me that it was best just to admit that it was all a mistake, apologize and undo the damage as much as possible -- I thought there might be some hope. Unfortunately the status quo won the day and it was back to business as usual with stupid arguments about how many inches off the ground the vyasa asanas of the "new gurus" should be. It was all a horrible mistake and the lie just kept being perpetuated. Instead of being honest and inviting all thier godbrothers and sisters back they decided that they were too dug in and it was then that Rabinda Swarup came up with another concoction in an attempt to clean up the mess. Instead of cleaning and correcting, he and his cronies made a bigger mess. Your relative considerations about Bhavananda falling away but then another ISKCON guru came to save you are insane. It's all part of your imagination. By putting forth the nonsense that a diksha guru can be appointed, selected, elected .... automatically disqualifies them from jump street. That's not how it works. Read the manual inside the package. You can have all the siksa gurus you want little kiwi guy but you need to get clear on what and who is a diksha guru -- what and who is an acarya -- how they manifest or emerge .... and stop all your show bottle talk about jettison preaching and more sincere sadhus in ISKCON today yada yada yada. You sound like a nutcase fanatic. Don't be afraid to think. What are you defending? Do you even know what you're talking about? You are the poster boy of the upa-ISKCON -- the shadow organization that goes by the name of ISKCON. The real ISKCON only exists in the hearts and minds of the diaspora comprised of Srila Prabhupada's sons and daughters who were evicted from our home unceremoniously and criminally. Maybe all this is over your head. I'm sure you will just respond with the same rhetoric. You have the nerve to bully people like Baker and Rodney --criticizing and chastising them and telling them that they are insincere and have no faith and blah blah blah while you continue to plaster this website with your egotistical, narrow minded immature garbage. You really are an obnoxious son of a gun.

    Tell you what ..... since I know you're going to come right back at me with more of the same --- I'll make this my last communication with you. In that way you can get the last word which you seem to have a need for in just about every single thread. By the way -- are you going for the Guinnses Book of World Records for posting on Pariprashnena?
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
     
    There are so many Vaisnavas in ISKCON. Hard to imagine and it is all credit to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.
    • CommentAuthorKula-pavana
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009 edited
     
    portnoy:You're missing the point. Srila Prabhupada was, is and always will be a pure devotee of the Lord. You can't compare Srila Prabhupada accepting disciples and the accepting of disciples on the part of those who claim they are gurus by appointment or election.
    What was so special about Prabupada accepting disciples he never knew, never met, never talked to, never chose a name for them, never chanted on their beads, never spoke Gayatri to them? It was Prabhupada who told the devotees to pick more initiating gurus as needed. The current voting system is based on his instruction. And many of the current gurus take a very good care of their disciples who are by and large happy with them. Fossils like you can complain all you want, but the sampradaya and Iskcon continue with or without you. All glories to the devotees of the Lord...
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2009
     
    Sat guru just means a spiritual teacher, unlike teachers (gurus) of logic, music or astronomy. All true disciples of Prabhupada are true gurus by his mercy, just as he is a true guru by the order of Mahaprabhu.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2009
     
    Vaisnava-Thakur means literary - worshipable devotee of Krishna. Of course some people think that their guru (because he is worshipable, or because he was very expert in one way or another) is the foremost and only guru. Now that is a dangerous, but understandable condition, usually a characteristic of a kanistha adhikari.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2009 edited
     
    Kula Pavana writes:
    What was so special about Prabupada accepting disciples he never knew, never met, never talked to, never chose a name for them, never chanted on their beads, never spoke Gayatri to them? It was Prabhupada who told the devotees to pick more initiating gurus as needed. The current voting system is based on his instruction. And many of the current gurus take a very good care of their disciples who are by and large happy with them. Fossils like you can complain all you want, but the sampradaya and Iskcon continue with or without you. All glories to the devotees of the Lord

    Kula Pavana -- are you insane or just stupid? You really believe all that crap? You are hopeless. HOPELESS. How dare you pretend to know what Srila Prabhupada wanted? You are a brainwashed jackass. Jackass is the only word I can think of to describe a jackass like you. I didn't realize just how dumb some of you are. This website is crawling with idiots like yourself. It's unreal. Please shut this thing down. You are doing a GREAT disservice to the most confidential representative of the Supreme Being. Please -- I beg you -- whoever is in charge of this waste of cyberspace -- shut the thing down. Of the small handful of regulars (there are really only around a half dozen of you who actually hang out on this playground regularly -- day after day, week after week, year after year --- of the small group here the majority of you are absolute IDIOTS. I signed up to post when I noticed on Google a discussion you began here about whether Sampradaya Sun was a vehicle for aparadhas. Then I come here and get to know who's who and what's what and I see that this site is responsible for the most heinous aparadhas against Srila Prabhupada I have ever seen on the Internet. Shut it down. Do yourselves a favor and find a new hobby. CCD, Kula Pavana, sri-govinda-das -- these are the worst of the lot. Three year olds pretending to be college graduates. You three need to pull the plug on your computers immediately. You're digging a hole so deep for yourselves that you'll never be able to climb out of it if you persist in this way.

    Please stop it. You are an embarrassment to the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya. If you need to engage in this mental masturbation then talk about politics or sports -- find something you might have some knowledge about.
  26.  
    portnoy: How dare you pretend to know what Srila Prabhupada wanted? You are a brainwashed jackass.
    I pretend to know just like you pretend to know. What makes you a better brainwashed jackass? do you have some sort of a patent on the correct interpretation? If so, please prove it. Prabhupada's instructions are being argued over by various groups of his followers, with each one claiming to be right.
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      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2009
     
    I would say that anyone who say that he knows exactly what SP wanted is off. But there is no harm in saying "in my view, this is what Prabhupada wanted.'' So there is no need to argue, but suggesting that just because one was initiated by Prabhupada one knows somehow more then others is a lie.
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      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2009
     
    Nrsingha:
    ccd: All true disciples of Prabhupada are true gurus by his mercy, just as he is a true guru by the order of Mahaprabhu.
    Erroneous comparison. U have no idea.
    So are you saying that order of Mahaprabhu is something minor? Or being a true disciple is less of a mercy? I wonder what is your idea.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2009
     
    He whose only teaching is humility greater than that of a blade of grass, said-"By My command being guru save this land!" In this instance Mahaprabhu Himself has given the command. His command being "Perform the duty of the guru, even as I do it Myself. Also convey this command to whom-so-ever you chance to meet." Caitanyadeva says, "Tell them these very words, viz. By My command being Guru save this land. Deliver the people from their foolishness." - that is the qual of BSST

    you are mistaken that SP wanted ONLY one moon...

    11 November, 1967 to Brahmananda, "I do not want crowd of Kirtananandas but I want a single soul like Brahmananda, Mukunda, Rayarama, and Satsvarupa. The same example is always applicable that one moon is sufficient for the night as not thousands of stars...Without being empowered by Krishna, nobody can preach Krishna Consciousness. It is not academic qualification or financial strength which helps in these matters, but it is sincerity of purpose which helps us always. Therefore, I wish that you will remain in charge of New York, let Satsvarupa be in charge of Boston, Let Mukunda be in charge of San Francisco....



    Ekas candras tamo hanti na ca tarah sahasrasah. One moon is complete to drive away the darkness of night, not millions of stars required. What these millions of stars can do? One moon is sufficient. So our propaganda is to create one moon. You see? But fortunately, by Krsna's grace, many moonlike boys and girls have come to me. You see? Many moons. (chuckles) I was thinking of having only one moon, but Krsna... I am hopeful that there are many moons, and in future they'll be doing very nice. This is para-upakara. To spread this Krsna consciousness movement is the best service to the humanity. Please try to understand this.


    Please try to understand this.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2009
     
    Vikranta Prabhu ..... I can empathize with your righteous indignation. When I read inane comments from brainwashed cheerleaders like the above person who describes the deviations going on in ISKCON today as "the sublime nature of Srila Prabhupada's legacy" my blood curdles. My usurping hijacking misrepresenting deceitful godbrothers would be powerless if not for supplicating sycophants like him who take the name of my guru maharaja in vain.

    One genius here referred to Srila Prabhupada's disciples as "fossils." He thinks he's on a grand march back to the spiritual world while slapping in the face the pure devotee of the Lord. I can just imagine somebody saying that to Srila Prabhupada -- that your disciples are fossils.

    It never ceases to amaze me the power of the mind to delude a person. Of all the various websites I have come across concerning Krishna consciousness, ISKCON, Gaudiya Math, etc.... I find this particular place to be the worst when it comes to upstart neophyte neo-ISKCON fools. Not everybody here fits that description -- but the most vocal and prolific of the lot certainly do. These fellows are dangerous in that they have an audience (albeit quite small) that seems to inspire them to continue the farce of pretending they represent the teachings of and are carrying on the legacy of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada when nothing could be further from the truth.

    I come here and try to expose the lies and protect and preserve the legacy .. and I'm criticized for not being positive and encouraging. I've pretty much given up. I'm wasting my time here. Well -- maybe not. I think one or maybe even two of them have an open enough mind and heart to at least hear what I'm saying without the programmed knee-jerk reaction that's expected among the "new disciples of the new gurus."

    Know what's really ironic? There are a few here who came on board "as far back as 1980 or 1982" and they consider themselves the wise elder statesmen. It's all so sad. For thirty plus years Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON has been crippled. It's prophesized in the Bhagavatam that when the Acarya leaves the mission falls into chaos and the disciples are severely tested. It's all part of the divine plan of the Supreme Lord and His representatives. I see it as growing pains and I have faith that eventually everything will be resolved; however, for now I can't in good conscience recommend anyone to join an ISKCON temple. I recommend that they study Srila Prabhupada's writings, chant Hare Krishna and if possible find some folks either on the Internet or preferably in their area who are like-minded sincere and serious aspiring devotees. As I say -- it's a very sad state of affairs, especially when people like the some of those found here pretend to be spokesmen for the founder acarya His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2009 edited
     
    "The Spirtual Master is acting in the position of Krsna because he is the most confidential servant of Krishna. Saktiavesa Avatara means he acts in the position of Krsna. He is very dear to Krsna. " Prabhupada letters 1977


    There is no such a letter in Prabhupada's letters in 1977 or even anywhere in Vedabase and even if the typist said A spiritual master and it was not a word for word translation of Gurvastakam verse, still it does not prove that direct recorded words of SBBST are false. But back to false claims:: "Sincerity is unstoppable force" -- where does he say it? Let me know the place and circumstance. (if he actually said it and it is not something Sundarananda Vidyavinoda wrote).


    Maybe it is better for you to stop cut and pasting fake quotes from ritivik sites and ACTUALLY study what acharyas said about it?
  32.  
    portnoy: I come here and try to expose the lies and protect and preserve the legacy...
    You come here to have an audience, because in real life nobody cares to listen to anything you say.. That is my guess. You are yet another 'unemployed Pope', angry at the world for not recognizing your greatness.... ----------- It is not that all Prabhupada disciples are fossils... you are a fossil, because you do not learn, grow and develop, being stuck in your own highly edited and whitewashed past. The way you twist and misconstrue things on this forum is a proof of how your mind works. --------- The legacy of Prabhupada is in his disciples and in his books. If you want to preserve his legacy, get your own act together and INSPIRE people to be more Krsna conscious. This is what the good disciples of Prabhupada do, and this is why I respect them. I personally know hundreds of people who became devotees of Krsna thanks to the inspiration coming from disciples of Srila Prabhupada, and their devotional lives are still nurtured by these disciples. When you become such an inspiration to others, I will show you all respect you want and more. ---------- Any fool can criticize, but it takes a really good person to inspire others in devotional service.
  33.  
    Vikranta:>Iskcon's guru's are empowered ISKCON guru is a dirty word, the four letter word, which means s**t.
    You know all of them? You have met them all, talked to them, studied their actions, and this is now your conclusion? Or you are just repeating something a great sadhu told you after performing such an investigation? ---------- Our Acharyas say: “Anyone who just once his life speaks the word ‘Nityananda’ becomes purified. He becomes My pure devotee” (Chaitanya Mangala, Madhya Khanda, Deliverance of Jagai and Madhai), and your conclusion is that one I quoted above? Shame on you... Yes, there are some Iskcon gurus I do not consider to be even remotely qualified for their job, but that is not a reason to think that they are ALL unqualified. I know some who are VERY qualified.
    • CommentAuthorKula-pavana
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2009 edited
     
    ccd:"The Spirtual Master is acting in the position of Krsna because he is the most confidential servant of Krishna. Saktiavesa Avatara means he acts in the position of Krsna. He is very dear to Krsna. " Prabhupada letters 1977 There is no such a letter in Prabhupada's letters in 1977 or even anywhere in Vedabase
    It is a 'composite' quote from a 14 December, 1972 letter to Tusta Krishna: http://www.prabhupada1972.com/2007_12_09_archive.html#5953143351398115973
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2009
     
    Kula-pavana:
    ccd:"The Spirtual Master is acting in the position of Krsna because he is the most confidential servant of Krishna. Saktiavesa Avatara means he acts in the position of Krsna. He is very dear to Krsna. " Prabhupada letters 1977 There is no such a letter in Prabhupada's letters in 1977 or even anywhere in Vedabase
    It is a 'composite' quote from a 14 December, 1972 letter to Tusta Krishna: http://www.prabhupada1972.com/2007_12_09_archive.html#5953143351398115973
    Fake quote -- real quote states just the opposite:

    Regarding your questions in the letter of November 18, 1972, you have asked me if the spiritual master is ultimately Krishna, so the answer must be that if you think that way then everyone is Krishna. So why we should think like this? Saktyavesa Avatara means a living entity, but he is specially empowered. Not that he is Krishna.

    But on account of his exalted position he is honoured as much as Krishna. Not that he is Krishna. That is Mayavadi. He acts in the position of Krishna, but he is not Krishna, he is very dear to Krishna. That is explained: (here the verse was quoted: yasya prasadat bhagavata prasadat . . .) The spiritual master is acting in the position of Krishna because he is the most confidential servant of Krishna.

    Your next question, after leaving this material realm does the devotee remain forever with his spiritual master? The answer is yes.

    But I think you have got the mistaken idea in this connection. You speak of pure devotee, that he is saktyavesa avatara, that we should obey him only--these things are the wrong idea. If anyone thinks like that, that a pure devotee should be obeyed and no one else, that means he is a nonsense. We advise everyone to address one another as Prabhu. Prabhu means master, so how the master should be disobeyed?

    Others, they are also pure devotees. All of my disciples are pure devotees. Anyone sincerely serving the spiritual master is a pure devotee, it may be Siddhasvarupa or others, a-Siddhasvarupa. This must be very clearly stated. It is not only that your Siddhasvarupa is a pure devotee and not others. Do not try to make a faction.
  36.  
    ccd: Fake quote -- real quote states just the opposite...
    The quote is not exactly fake. I called it a 'composite quote' because it is composed from sentences actually spoken by Prabhupada, but not in that order, and where the context has been edited out and arguably altered. ------------ The people who make such composite quotes are the same ones who throw a tantrum whenever any editing is done to Prabhupada's books. They obviously believe that "the end justifies the means", at least when it comes to them.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2009
     
    Nrsingha:Yes,neither minimise nor maximize. No factions! "Fanaticism,merely over-compensated doubt." -Carl Jung.
    Another incomplete quote. This particular quote is: "As a defence against doubt, the conscious attitude grows fanatical. For fanaticism, after all, is merely overcompensated doubt." -- any other quotes from analytical physiology? When will we grow dave?
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2009
     
    Nrsingha:Yes,fanaticism, overcompensated doubt. Quite insightful observation of the conditioned nature. Isn't it! Ysvt.
    I don't know -- I quite like Prabhupadas "Religion without philosophy is sentiment, or sometimes fanaticism" -- it is interesting that in Adi.7.68 Prabhupada translates bhAvuka as a fanatic (actually it also means a crazy man or sentimentalist).
  39.  
    sri_govinda_das:So now i am presently taking my sons on sankirtan ...to hopefully train them personally how to associate with krishna while doing a ''christmas marathon''!Having just finished for the day.....i am tired and thrilled that my son and i have been three weeks on the road together!
    This is very inspiring, prabhu! My heart grows listening to stories like that. All glories to the sankirtan devotees of the Lord! :)
    Thankful People: ccd
  40.  
    sri_govinda_das:Actually if you are sincere and continue your service krishna reciprocates with you personally.As he has done on many ,many wonderfully sweet moments,when i truly looked for his mercy and personal guidance.Actually even when your diksa guru falls.....you have hundreds of siksa guru within iskcon! As in my case i learned the actual sastra in a more detailed explicit manner pertinent to my personal situation.....and carried on!Now personally i am practically fearless!
    I see practical service as the essence of love - the love for Krsna, the love for our guru and other Vaishnavas, the love for our family and people in general. It is something that can't be faked. Over the years I have met many devotees like your good self, who thanks to their sincere service for many years have developed amazing insight, purity, and devotional maturity. This is what works - service. I know devotees who over the years had 3 gurus that fell down - yet, amazingly, they never gave up Krsna consciousness and continued their service. Thank you for sharing with us your realizations!
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2009
     
    > bhAvuka as a fanatic (actually it also means a crazy man or sentimentalist).
    N-dave: Yea,someone immature in his sadhana.

    Nope, just the opposite, Krishnadasa Kaviraja is playing with words see: muhur aho rasikA bhuvi bhAvukA
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2009
     
    > It is not even possible to know all of them, they are too many,

    Okay you were caught. At least say how many please and we will let you off the hook and leave you finish your guesswork in private.
  43.  
    Vikranta: There is no need to know all of them. It is not even possible to know all of them, they are too many, hundreds. If you know a dozen, that is enough to draw the conclusion, they are more or less same.
    I know some good ones, and I know some bad ones. My conclusion is that it is not all one... I judge each one of them separately by their activities and results. ------------------- A guru is judged by his disciples. If all Prabhupada's senior disciples are a failure as you say, what does that say about him and his mission? Was he a coach that put together the worst possible team? -------------- Too bad he apparently did not recognize his 'true disciples' who are now the ritvikvada leaders (all two or three of them). If he only made THEM the leaders, Iskcon would have taken over the world by now... You guys are such a joke...
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2009
     
    Vikranta, you're talking nonsense. Guru doesn't 'throw seeds' while accepting disciples. That'd disqualify him as a genuine guru. There is a prescribed mutual one-year testing period as per HBV 1.73-75.
    This parable refers to a preacher.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeDec 21st 2009
     
    Vikranta -- you're dealing with not just blockheads here -- they are cinderblockheads. I tried and I gave up. Stubborn like mules -- totally bought into the lies like good little brainwashed cheerleaders and they throw the "aparadha" weapon at anyone who tries to wake them up. Better yet -- you get blamed for not being a nice pleasant encouraging fellow. I saw my spiritual master Srila Prabhupada become angry like a lion on so many occasions at imposters, cheaters, his students who failed to protect the integrity of his teachings when some godbrother(s) twisted the philosohy into a pretzel. Oh -- but getting angry and ranting about bogus gurus means we're yucky people and believe me they will wear you down -- these morons, especially the two chief jackasses named kulapavana and srigovindadas. I mean - where did these two come from? In all my days (and I'm talking forty years plus as a student and disciple of my guru maharaja) I have never come across two like these guys. It would be comical if not for the fact that they continue to invoke the name of the purest of the pure -- His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. That's what really gets to me -- that they dare to use his name to support their foolishness. The greatest irony of all is that they sit in their chairs at their computers and point away, declaring that this one and that one is a blasphemer while they are the greatest offenders at the holy lotus feet of His Divine Grace.

    I wish you the best Vikranta. Maybe you can get through to one or two of the more passive observers here. That would make it all worthwhile. I found it too frustrating and infuriating.
    • CommentAuthorKula-pavana
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009 edited
     
    portnoy: I tried and I gave up. Stubborn like mules -- totally bought into the lies like good little brainwashed cheerleaders and they throw the "aparadha" weapon at anyone who tries to wake them up.
    It does not look like you gave up yet... and you yourself use the 'aparadha weapon' all the time. Every time you think someone is not respectful enough towards your guru, Srila Prabhupada, you scream 'aparadha!' like a little girl, all the time insulting other Vaishnavas, even (or especially) when they happen to be gurus of anybody participating in this discussion. ---------- while you may not have run into anybody like me, I have met plenty of people like you - every two bit ritvik I ever met sounds exactly like you.
  47.  
    In any debate the first question should be -- are you an ISKCON leader? If the answer is yes -- there is nothing to talk about -- the guy is off. If the answer no, why would you debate with someone who is not even a leader, he must agree with you. I have met one Prabhuji who refused to answer this question... I will never talk to him again.

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