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Philosophy: Are scriptures proof of God?

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      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2009
     
    > Often, I don't know who to behave so as to not attract attention.

    I refererred to a purposeful attracting attention. Asking proper questions in a proper way doesn't count.

    Simply explain why you sit like that. If one is disturbed by other's sitting, what can I say...?
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      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2009
     
    Vyasa-gita of the Kürma Puräna: ‘One should properly sit facing east on a mat made of kusa grass and with a controlled mind he should practice pranayama three times before engaging in sandhya meditation. This is the injunction of the Vedic literature.’ ;-)
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      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2009
     
    Baker:
    ccd:How do you propose for yourself to 'keep a low profile"? I will be interested to know what you actually prepared to undergo;-)
    Thank you for asking.

    My 'keeping a low profile' is so far based mostly on the reflection that I am someone subject to birth, aging, illness and death, in all their forms; therefore, it is fitting that I don't try to deny that, thinking 'Oh, I can win over birth, aging, illness and death.'
    For example, I don't wear make-up, high heels or fancy clothes, because were I to stumble and fall, get robbed, be told some awful news and cry - it would look really silly to wear make-up etc. then. Few things are as ridiculous as a woman all dolled up who trips, or loses her job.

    For similar reasons, I make an effort to eat simple foods, the main criteria being that they be healthy and nutritious, even if not all that tasty. I use little salt, I don't fry, I eat little sugar. No pizza and no pasta.

    I always try to be in such a state of mind so as to be ready to hear some awful news and not become too disturbed.

    I'm not sure though how to transfer this attitude into my interactions with people. Mostly, it means that I limit my interactions to formal ones, or to situations where participation is highly voluntary (such as forums or open discussions) - as opposed to one to one personal situations where some obligations arise simply out of being physically present in the same space with someone.

    I know for myself it is hard, but should not be something external only. In fact one can theoretically be bright and prominent but internally keep a low profile.
    What do you do to 'keep a low profile', what reflections underlie your 'low profile' behavior?
    One devotee suggested to me that one should show humility by just accepting what others say and not arguing back (all the time). I struggle with it.
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2009
     
    sri_govinda_das:It indeed takes all types......Bhaktine baker.Unfortunately i am prone to being extremely colourful...in my ''conditioned'' humble present existence .However my freind bhaktine baker with application ,surrender and chanting 16 rounds all our lower qualities and fears will be spiritualised and enriched over time .We are not meant for the ''eternally sinful'' dogma one christian preacher shouted at me yesterday.Krishna is simply available to everyone in prasadam.....especially when such food is offered with real bhakti and devotion.This higher taste....or param dristva is simple to appreciate.SABDHA BRAHMAN....he is also present within transcendental sound!
    There seems to be something magical about chanting sixteen rounds. I can't explain, but there is a feeling of accomplishment, that "I have done my duty. Not perfectly, but I have made an effort and at least done the minimum."

    My whole life, I have been focused on doom and gloom, and I had thought it is going to be like that until the day I die. I had thought I would feel this same doom and gloom also if I chanted sixteen rounds.

    But now I cannot help but to feel lighter somehow, not exactly a smile, more a grin on my face. I really don't know how to accomodate this new feeling into my life, and it disturbs me. I feel I am not being serious enough!!
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2009 edited
     
    ccd:One devotee suggested to me that one should show humility by just accepting what others say and not arguing back (all the time). I struggle with it.
    I have been thinking about this too - it is said that a devotee should not be argumentative. I myself tend to be very combative in discussion - this is something that really bothers me about myself. I suppose being combative like that is a kind of self-defence, which points at not having a safe refuge.

    As far as I can see, it seems that a lot of whether one will be alright with just accepting what others say comes down to one's reasons for not being argumentative.
    If the reason is to the effect of "I'm worthelss/stupid/a lowlife, therefore, I should just accept what others say", it is likely going to be very hard to refrain from arguing back.
    Similar if the reason is "It doesn't matter what they or I say or think anyway."

    I am still looking for a good reason for not being argumentative, a reason that wouldn't include self-loathing or loathing others or life. Do you know any such reason?

    I have also noticed that I am less combative if I invest and improve my spiritual practice. And this improvement needn't have anything directly to do with addressing my combative issues. For example, once I simply reorganized my folder for spiritual studies, added some pictures and a nice front page - and I was noticeably less combative for several days.
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      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2009
     
    >Baker: I am still looking for a good reason for not being argumentative, a reason that wouldn't include self-loathing or loathing others or life. Do you know any such reason?

    Well a good reason is that unreasonable people don't respond to reason. Second reason is to ignore is better then argue. And if you agree with someone you have an opportunity to use the favor and suggest something back. If you do take the suggestion from others seriously, it may help you, if taken in proper consciousness, to become purified and more humble. Eventually you will be able to see the hand of God in the words of a stranger and take them as external representative of caitya-guru. And even further you should note that when a senior person chastises you, he takes upon himself/herself your token of karma, thus allowing you to rid yourself of bad karma.

    It has nothing to do with beating yourself into the ground. Smile back if you have something to say but know they can not take it from you.
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2009
     
    ccd:>Baker: I am still looking for a good reason for not being argumentative, a reason that wouldn't include self-loathing or loathing others or life. Do you know any such reason? Well a good reason is that unreasonable people don't respond to reason. Second reason is to ignore is better then argue. And if you agree with someone you have an opportunity to use the favor and suggest something back. If you do take the suggestion from others seriously, it may help you, if taken in proper consciousness, to become purified and more humble. Eventually you will be able to see the hand of God in the words of a stranger and take them as external representative of caitya-guru. And even further you should note that when a senior person chastises you, he takes upon himself/herself your token of karma, thus allowing you to rid yourself of bad karma. It has nothing to do with beating yourself into the ground. Smile back if you have something to say but know they can not take it from you.
    Reading your reply, I thought of something that always lurks in the back of my mind, and which I rather don't think of at all. Namely, that there is some fundamental discord between myself and the devotees, and that no matter how much I try to improve my practice, no matter what I do, this discord will remain there.

    I have first experienced such a discord with the Catholics. My grandmother was the kind of Catholic who believed that if someone was not baptized as a child, they will go to hell, even if later on they do become baptized and go to church and do everything that proper Christians do. I was allowed to go to church with her and pray, but it was clear that I was not "one of them" and had no chance of ever becoming "one of them".

    I have the same feeling with the devotees. That even if I chant 64 rounds daily, impeccably keep the regulative principles, take initation, regularly go to classes, donate large sums of money and material necessities, go on pilgrimage and so on, to the devotees, I will still be a second-class person, not "one of them". That they will never accept me, never actually be friends with me, and that to them, I will always be a mere visitor.
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      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2009
     
    > That they will never accept me, never actually be friends with me, and that to them, I will always be a mere visitor.

    Not so. But to have friends one needs to behave as a friend in the first place. There're six priti laksanas to practice among devotees. NOI 4.
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2009 edited
     
    I have had a really bad start with the devotees. I don't know whose fault it is, I am not saying that I have played no part in it. I have tried to keep a low profile as much as I could. But from the beginning on, they have had a patronizing, "we will tell you what you think, we don't need to ask you anything to know who and what you are" attitude toward me. And then when that devotee slammed down with a chair in front of me, looking fiercely right through me ...

    Surely those negative experiences must have significance beyond themselves? I mean, if those devotees thought it was right to make empty promises to me, to yell at me, to leave me out for prasadam ... - then there probably is something to it, that they judged I did/do not deserve a better treatment. If I would be treated like that in a worldly group, this would mean that the group is telling me they don't want me among themselves. Perhaps it means the same here?
    • CommentAuthormung
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2009
     
    Baker:
    I have the same feeling with the devotees. That even if I chant 64 rounds daily, impeccably keep the regulative principles, take initation, regularly go to classes, donate large sums of money and material necessities, go on pilgrimage and so on, to the devotees, I will still be a second-class person, not "one of them". That they will never accept me, never actually be friends with me, and that to them, I will always be a mere visitor.
    Not So. Well, until your money ran out that is...
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2009
     
    To evaluate the situation we'd need more inputs from both sides. So far it seems to me those devotees are too neophyte to handle beginners of your type. I already suggested a group talk to clarify positions and expectations of all involved. And trying to find some more advanced devotees who can encourage instead of discourage.
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009
     
    Thank you for your support!

    I have been an exception my whole life. I have always wanted to fit in and be like others. But somehow, I never succeeded at that. I am afraid that speaking up will only make things worse for me - it always has so far.

    I have heard of a study about the social integration of people with above-average IQ. The findings were basically that if an person with an above-average or high IQ is introduced to an IQ homogenous group, and the IQ difference between the individual and the group is about 30 points, that individual will likely be socially disadvantaged and the group will negatively judge his other abilities as well.

    I found a wikianswer - What is the connection between people who have high IQs or who are very talented or creative and depression or other mental disorders? - with stories of people just like my own: "extreme sensitivity", "wearing one's heart on the sleeve", "ADD", "OCD", "depression", "social anxiety", "shyness", "finding it hard to relate to other people", "maladjustment", "easily intimidated by bold, loud, extroverted types of people", "people seeing one as standoffish, weird, pedantic, boring", "racing thoughts", "feeling one has to act stupid in order to fit in", "accused of narcissism".

    This is the story of my life. It started with the non-devotees, and it's repeating with the devotees.

    What usually earns me the epithet of being stupid or something to that effect, is that I ask questions or otherwise express thoughts about "how do you know you know" and "why is that valuable".

    In an earnest conversation about spiritual topics, I once asked a Mormon missionary (and he seemed fairly accomplished) how he knows he is not just imagining things, how he knows that Jesus really exists, and pointed out that I don't know how to distinguish between reality and imagination. He earnestly advised me to seek psychiatric help. Several other Christians have advised me to seek psychiatric help for my thoughts about knowing things, depression and identity.

    Most devotees I have met also seem to think that one first needs to be sane and healthy according to some Western standard of normalcy, before one is fit to start on the spiritual path. This has gotten me into a lot of trouble as I would ask devotees things like "How do you know you had free will in your choice of spiritual path?" To me, this is a perfectly normal question, and having a problem with answering it with "I just knew" also seems normal to me.
  13.  
    I have heard of a study about the social integration of people with above-average IQ. The findings were basically that if an person with an above-average or high IQ is introduced to an IQ homogenous group, and the IQ difference between the individual and the group is about 30 points, that individual will likely be socially disadvantaged and the group will negatively judge his other abilities as well.


    You may seriously consider reducing your IQ level. Sometimes the level go dangerously high, especially if you eat certain foods. I have experienced it personally and I found a few over the counter medicines that work perfectly. A nice book for people like that is
    How to Slow Down and Start Living Again by Phil Kalliaway. It will also help to restrict use of internet to about 30 minutes a week and joining a local bhaktin program (if you are male that it).

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