Where did they split to? Are they a deviation from the Gaudiya Sampradaya? If so what are the deviations?

Siddhaswarupananda Maharaja (Chris Butler) eventually left ISKCON, went back to Hawaii, formed a new organization called "Science of Identity" -- got married -- and lives a reclusive life in a very posh home in Hawaii. Many of the folks who were originally his followers and disciples from before he joined ISKCON in the early 70's are back with him and they also have expanded with centers mainly in Hawaii, Australia and the Phillipines. His Disciples refer to him as "Jagat Guru" as well as "Prabhupada." Among his loyal followers in Hawaii Siddhaswarup has some influential and controversial disciples such as Mike Gabbard, a local politician.

The above should be enough info for "googling" one's way right up to Siddhaswarup's door -- but don't expect to be invited in. He has body guards and a security system at his enclave.

Once I visited their program in Prague. Two Polish followers, one Czech translator and about six visitors, myself included.
The main thing is they want to avoid being confused with ISKCON. Therefore they didn't wear dhoti but business suits, no sikhas but regular hair, not playing traditional instruments but guitar, no mahamantra but mantra(?) "nitai gaur haribol, haribol nitai gaur". The philosophy itself wasn't deviated. At the end they distributed prasadam oranges. In summary, nothing specifically attractive although chanting Holy Names should be appreciated. Otoh, our acaryas don't like manufactured mantras.

D V A Shun

BTW. I emailed at their site but no one responds to my questions. I wanted to know where their temples are. They must have a Sunday program. Anyone know?

Do they have any actual temples?

Ouch! My gosh. Those are really clear words. How is it so many accept that he is a 'Paramahamsa'?

Are there any online forums I can talk directly to his followers? All the websites I found are the same, quite generic but no forums or real interaction. How does one meet him? Where does he stay? There must be some access to him.

Actually when i jioned the haribols were concerned with following ''some'' of the four regulative principles....we were asked to stay apart because several literally ''blew themselves up'' in a bomb intended for the slaughter house......Freezing works in our town.They were intent on using violence and bombs .......until this sad adventure.Srila Prabhupada was intent on encouraging siddhaswarupa and his large group of followers to chant and preach.However they felt that iskcon's ''heavy handed preaching techniques caused many potential devotees to see the hare krishna movement in a bad light.They were like the flower power people.....very casual and eventually degenigrated.Many times they were openly envious....any sincere ones joined us eventually and then merged into ''hindu sahajaism'' and ''all paths lead to the same gaol.Last i heard they were going to extreme lengths to say we are noy hare krishna's ......used to be big!......now they have merged ....and no longer around.Bloop!.....Bloop!

By the looks of their center in Sacramento it does not appear that they have gone away. It looks a little new agey though. Anyway I don’t want to be too judgemental, as I don’t know much about them. If they are chanting the Holy Names they must be on the right track???

When you write "their theology is just like ours" --- what do you mean by "ours" ???? The pronoun "ours" implies you and others so the "you" part is clear enough -- but who are the others in "ours?"

Well actually having been around them.....myself there'' Jagad guru'' has always been prone to go in the oppersite direction as iskcon.They don't chant the minimum amount of 16 rounds.So just some foolish people can ''bark at the moon''....or elect a ''jagad guru''....even though now we have not heard of them for 15 odd years.Being fulltime devotees is different than these ''kanistha'' groups...who have radically changed Prabhupada's mood and preaching style.The haribols were never advanced enough to preach in Prabhupada's mood of ''demons and devotees''.Hence from hundreds of devotees in the south pacific to ....almost nil!You become an archarya by pleasing your guru by ''surrender.....to please him.''Which siddha swarupa never did!He had a huge desire to keep his small position as a guru....in a small pond ,rather than help his disciples.He stopped them from preaching the maha mantra.....therefore he performed violence ....and was content to cheat his disciples by giving them other less sanctioned mode of approaching Krishna.They never surrendered to srila Prabhupada.He....siddha swarupa das,actually initiated within the prescene of srila Prabhupada......which is offensive When told to follow Madhudwisa swami he refused because he could not even contemplate actually being humble.Such fringe groups are for those like you bhakta Rodney .....''Who want to be cheated''....they are not part of our sampradaya.Otherwise he should wear dhoti and tilaka,carry a danda and ....shave the head....ect.But he always thought he new better......He merely wants the prestige of being a guru connected to Srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami.....However he does not do as his guru has done....just changing.....exploiting ...this is the ''american disease''.

The ''paramahamsa''definition ....in our line was established by srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati takura .Who was ferociously strict about chanting 64 rounds a day! His '' Swan like'' preachers were instructed to carry a tri-danda and begging pot!Go door to door begging .....while austerity was seen as a wonderful asset.Such behaviour was an attempt to develop fearlessness.He siddha swarupa das... must preach the proper gaudiya siddhanta......not change it like Siddha swarupa das has....he is not a ''Paramahamsa'' in our line.Read the brahma-samita...by srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati takura.He is not part of a ''hippy sampradaya''.He was a ''nastika Brahmacari''.......no room for this nonsene comprimising spirit.Sorry but 1 or two regulative principles is just nonsense.

Pranams and excuse me Sri Govinda Das Prabhu, I don’t know so many things. You must at least be to the level of madyama devotee so please be compassionate to a kanista like myself Thank you for informing me of my spiritual status and my desire to be cheated. So far no one has given me such status. Now I know that at least I am some kind of a Vaishnava. Thank you very much. I will do my best to improve from this point.

I asked for some information on how the group or how the leader in particular deviated.

1. Please be kind enough to clarify what part of ISKCON Jagad Guru has gone in the opposite direction. Many have gone in the opposite direction. Please be more specific and detailed on what he chose to do the opposite of.

2. If J.G. is a bonafide guru then it is his perquisite concerning the number of rounds he gives his followers. Some in the Gaudiya Math claim Srila Prabhupada deviated. It is a kanistha mentality to argue over such details. According to Siddhanta the number of rounds given falls into the category of a detail that may change according to time place and circumstance. Therefore if he gives less rounds that could not be considered a deviation from the sampradaya. A bonafide acharya never changes any ABSOLUTE truths. However he MAY change many details. He may change many things according to his own mood. The mood of Srila Prabhupada was quite different than that of his guru. He changed quite a lot of details. The same argument you are using on this one can be used against Srila Prabhupada.


3. Please explain to me what Srila Prabhupadas mood of “devotees and demons” is and how they deviated that way. Maybe you have something here.



4. You say he initiated within the presence of Srila Prabhupada. That would surely be a deviation. But in the letter above Srila Prabhpada says, “Regarding Siddhasvarupananda, these things which you have heard are simply rumor and there is no substance. Siddhasvarupa does not want to take disciples..” If you have more evidence that in fact he did initiate disciples please let us see it. That would constitute a deviation. But Srila Prabhupada says he was not initiating and that was just a rumor. Please give us the proof.

5. How is a shaved head and carrying a danda a must to be a follower of Srila Prabhupada? George Harrison got plenty of people chanting but no shaved head or danda. Gaura Kisora Das Babaji and many leaders prior to him did not carry a danda or waterpot. In fact the practice had disappeared until the advent of Sarasvati Thakur. Again some say the greata Thakur deviated by bringing back sannyasa. I don't think you have anything on this one.

6. What women sits on the Vyasasana? That would be a deviation.

I look forward to some concrete evidence of deviation if it exists and thanks for taking the time to help me.

>What women sits on the Vyasasana? That would be a deviation?

Why that would be a deviation?

Actually modern day ISKCON is much closer to Siddha's group then it was way back when. Certainly not everyone here can say that every ISKCON man shaves the head and lives in the temple. Hey they would even select a GbC man knowing they do not follow some of the regs. That should say something.

Firstly Bhakta Rodney ...please accept my kind regards,i have little time for guru's who allow their disciples to call them ''jagad guru''....who have fallen down from their sannyasi -renounced status of life.Such concocted''paramahamsa''titles are not reflective of the original mentality and genuine intentions of srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati takura. .......in other words,the old fashioned term is ......he...the sanyasis has swallowed his own vomit! .Getting married merely proves the gentleman is not a ''Paramahamsa!......yes it is indeed good to be be honest....but by adjusting ....watering down the unique spiritual emphasis present,which was left by his divine grace srila Prabhupada we are prone to mix and match.....something which his divine grace detested!

For your personal refferences i would suggest you read hauri sauri prabhu's recollections.....of Srila Prabhupada's visits to new zealand.Where srila Prabhupada personally suggests to madhudwisa swami that siddhaswarupa das never truly surrendered.....but he is coming to us....iskcon .We are not going to him!So we should encourage his group.

We firstly are concerned wether siddha swarupa prabhu.....is part of iskcon?The obvious answer is no!Having been around many haribol devotees since the late seventies i am personally conversant with their mood and style of preaching.They attracted many devotees initially when they ''baulked' at the austerity involved in direct book distribution and sober mood of following 4 regulative principles.When i personally went on harinam....up queen street,in Auckland city or george street sydney.....on a friday night,we were shocked to see the large numbers of ''Flower power'' haribol devotees coming the oppersite way.Infact some off us naturally thought we were part of the small faction......and they were the head office!.....However they have significantly changed their ''modes of nature'' interpretations of krishna conciousness to suit the market! Infact i was witness to such devotional adjustments .....regularly.Over time they attempted to attack iskcon devotees......verbally and sometimes physically,thankfully they learnt their lessons with explosives and quietly dissolved over time.Personal opinions aside,they were unable to commit sincerely back then because they were more concerned about ''how they felt''....if it was comfitable to their senses.Hence they were unable to perform much austerity in their attempts to please krishna.At one time .....being repeatedly asked wether they were hare krishna's they decided to stop comgregational chanting of hare krishna!

Actually bhakta Rodney Prabhu.....our disciplic line is not a diksa line in essence.Srila Bhaktisiddanta incorporated certain ''uttama'' devotional sentiments into our paramahamsa ....bhagavat line.In laymans terms ....not all the diksa guru's are present on the recent accepted parampara line,mainly because srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati refused to accept certain guru were infact qualified and genuine in their personal realisations.Hence his commanding presence has indeed left its huge impact on our uniquely iskcon gaudiya heritage.

"""This is a rough appreciation of the actual event however after my christmas marathon service Bhakta Rodney prabhu....i will be able to supply sufficent detail once i am back home with my own library and my own extensive computer devotional histories."""


I would very much appreciate that. These things should be verified for the future.

Actually Bhakta Rodney prabhu.....on this site there are several sincere genuine devotees.My personal favourite siksa guru's are Veda Prabhu....Kula-pavanna prabhu's ,with some inspiring knowledgable banter being displayed by ccd prabhu.Your feelings are natural ....however it is time in iskcon to become a cultured and hopefully ''sastra chaksus''devotee.Thus being able to see through the teachings of bhagavad gita ....and srimad bhagavatam you will become steadfast and staunch.Such great souls are in severe shortage,and in my humble opinion what the world truly is in need of!

If Ninjai passes the temple of Jagannatha and then meets this Maha I think that could not be Krishna he met. Sounds like somebodies fertile brain (imagination). Sounds like they are making it up as they go, using Vedic knowledge to achieve some success in the cartoon world but not wanting to give credit where it should be given.

> if anyone points out that cartoon is specifically Krishna related they will kick you out.

You can point it out on other forums (like imdb), if you want.

Rodney: This type of hidden inspiration is quite common in the movie industry. But kicking someone out sounds off.

Rodney:

and if they kick the Vaishnavas off the forum for being honest I consider that offensive.

Is it because they're a bunch of oddballs who follow 'some guy'? How dare you offend Guru Dave!