We have upgraded Pariprashnena! Login is done with email OR username + usual password now.
Any problem or doubt please email pariprashnena@gmail.com
Should there be GBC law in relation to Vaisnava etiquette?
-
From an interesting article by Vaiyasaki dasa:[br]
[br]I think we need to submit a resolution to the coming year's GBC meeting in Mayapur. Therefore, I would like to propose that the GBC adopt a resolution akin to the following and make it ISKCON law. Does anyone else agree with this?[br]
[br]
Resolved that:[br]
[br]
* Every devotee is precious and must be glorified and treated as such (suhridam sarva bhutanam),[br]
* The amount of service that devotees do is like a mountain compared to the grain of sand of their shortcomings,[br]
* Any leader that finds fault with another Vaishnava (kuti nati) without due process (phalena pariciyate), regardless of whether true or false, should be censured,[br]
* Any leader who listens to gossip or rumors (gramya katha) and acts on it, should be censured,[br]
* Any sannyasi who preaches that female devotees are maya should be censured,[br]
* The grhastha ashram should be glorified as the most noble of all ashrams, as stated in the Ramayana. This is the only ashram where people sacrifice their own lives and take responsibility to care for women and children who are generally helpless and innocent. Sannyasis never take these responsiblities.[br]
* Every grhastha should be encouraged to have many children, so the society can grow from within.[br]
* Every leader should see himself/herself as dasa anudasa, and every other Vaishnava he/she comes in contact with should be treated as prabhu.[br]
[br]
http://www.chakra.org/discussions2/RenewalDec25_09.html -
What would be the consequences for transgressing if those above were to become laws?
How is "seeing every devotee as precious and glorifying them and treating them as such" to be legislated? Where is the line between seeing someone as precious and not seeing someone as precious, and who is to have the say in which is which? -
Why do sannyasis go around preaching women or women devotees as maya.
Do our vaishnava sannyasis no longer accept women / women devotees as our mother
or address them as matajis. -
No.
-
Kryos - no
So, How do the sannyasis address women devotees when approached. Further , how do the devotees
in general address women devotees when approached. -
As mother.
-
VEDA- As mother
I suppose there must be some misguided sannyasis doing this. I wonder how they got
to the stage of becoming a sannyasi. Shameful isn't it going around calling / preaching their mothers
as maya. To request this to be made as one of iskcon's law i guess it must be pretty serious.
Yes i am all for it if this is what it takes to correct this misguided shameful sannaysis. -
Are there any real Sannyasi's left in Iskcon, which one has a water pot and which one has a begging bowl, which one has no contact with money and which one
eats austerely, which one does not have a servant/secretary that washed their copens? Which one never eats alone? and which one eats austere foodstuffs and follows all of the chaturmas fasts? Will the real Iskcon Sannyasi's please stand up? -
no contact with money: difficult in this age outside India's countryside, impractical for preaching
Many eat austerely due to stomach problems. Does that count?
Having a servant is not forbidden. See the story of Laksmipati Tirtha taking Sri Nityananda Prabhu as his brahmacari servant.
Now you can list your own qualifications. -
My qualifications? Or qualifications of manasi?
* I see all devotees as precious except for sannyasis. A reward for public humiliation of ISKCON sannyasis should be covered by insurance to be taken up by GBCs, it should be paid on per-click basis and the names of winners should be published on Dandavats.
* A resolution should be passed that everyone is doing valuable service except those who are gurus and sannyasis, they by definition, are in maya and should not be allowed defend themselves. Anyone criticizing a woman in ISKCON should be castrated.
* One should be allowed to see faults in leaders and sannyasis only. All others are fine, especially those who marry south american teenagers.
* Only gossip or rumors about leadership is allowed. It should be forbidden to talk about Vaiyasaki's age gap with his wife.
* Only grihasthas should preach that female devotees are maya. Sannyasis should keep quiet about it, sannyasis are maya, it is obvious.
* Only if one is divorced and married again should he or she be allowed to become a GBC, unless one had previously contracted HIV/AIDS or was in a service of a gay GBC, They should become GBC automatically.
* Local temples should create a bursary for each child born in ISKCON, and anyone who becomes vanaprastha or sannyasi should pay for it.
* Only leaders should think they are servants, all others should have t-shirts saying Prabhu. -
borokrsnadasa - Only grihasthas should preach that female devotees are maya.
Prabhu, whether one is a sannyasi, vanaprastha, grihastha or brahmacari, why should anyone refer or call or
brand the female devotees as maya. Do they not undergo the same birth, old age and death like everyone else.
Are they not also devotees, surrendered spirit souls to and servants of Krsna. So how did they become an illusion /
maya in iskcon society. -
I personally have never heard an ISKCON sanyassi say that women are maya
-
Kryos - nosg:
So, How do the sannyasis address women devotees when approached. Further , how do the devotees
in general address women devotees when approached.
[br]
My answer was for the topic in general. There should be no law in relation to vaisnava etiquette, because everything has to be voluntary, not forced. If a law was in place in current ISKCON, it would just be enforced, in my opinion. -
borokrsnadasa - Only grihasthas should preach that female devotees are maya.sg:
[br]
This is an oxymoron. -
> If a law was in place in current ISKCON, it would just be enforced
Etiquette is usually called an unwritten law.
A general rule is that a law needs to be enforced otherwise it's just a cluster of words on a paper.
He who neither rouses fear by his anger, nor confers a favour when he is pleased can neither control nor protect. What can he do? (Niti sastra 9.9) -
/n/n
no contact with money: difficult in this age outside India's countryside, impractical for preachingVEDA:
Many eat austerely due to stomach problems. Does that count?
Having a servant is not forbidden. See the story of Laksmipati Tirtha taking Sri Nityananda Prabhu as his brahmacari servant.
Now you can list your own qualifications.
Contact with money difficult? Oh really when I was a Bramhachari in Iskcon I had not one cent to my name, I collected thousands some days and handed over every cent. Yes maybe contact is difficult but they could be far more transparent about it than they are and be far more accountable/n/n
You say "Many eat austerely due to stomach problems. Does that count?"/n
Yes thats probably due to too many fizzy drinks and fancy food./n/n
You say "Having a servant is not forbidden. See the story of Laksmipati Tirtha taking Sri Nityananda Prabhu as his brahmachari servant."
Always amazes me how someone can only quote transcendental personalities and what they do ... therefore we can imitate...get real!/n/n
Qualifications: Temple floor scrubber, Temple Pot washer, Generally Fallen, born into the age of Kali, collected thousands upon thousands of dollars for Srila Prabupada only to see it wasted on things like dried fruit for a Sansyasi that he ate without offering any of it, wasted on a temple presidents new car, oh and I also see massive new buildings in Mayapur one of the poorest areas in the world, buildings that will do nothing for no one, and no I did not join Iskcon because I saw a massive impressive building, I joined because I saw devotees living a very austere life yet somehow they had something more deeper and were more happier than anyone else I knew./n/n
There should be a basic list of rules for a Sannyasi (which do exist by the way and its fair to say not one Iskcon Sannyasi follows them) Srila Prabhupada stopped giving Sannyas because so many of them were show bottles, still associating with women, as he said better to be a humble devotee than a show bottle leader! -
to add further on sannyasi, this is a quote from The Nectar of Instruction.
In his book prema - vivaria, Capter Seven, Sri Jagadananda Pandita says:
"My dear brother, you are in the renounced order of life and should
not listen to talk about ordinary worldly things, nor should you talk
about worldly things when you meet with others. Do not think of women
even in dreams. You have accepted the renounced order of life with a vow
that forbids you to associate with women. If you wish to associate with
Caitanya Mahaprabhu, you must always remember the incident of Chota
Haridasa and how he was rejected by the Lord. Do not eat luxurious
dishes or dress in fine garments, but always remain humble and serve
Their Lordships Sri Sri Radha-Krsna in your heart of hearts."
The conclusion is that one who can control these six items--speech,
mind, anger, tongue, belly and genitals--is to be called a svami or
gosvami. Svami means master, and gosvami means master of the go, or
senses. When one accepts the renounced order of life, he automatically
assumes the title of svami. This does not mean that he is the master of
his family, community or society; he must be master of his senses.
Unless one is master of his senses, he should not be called gosvami, but
go-dasa, servant of the senses. Following in the footsteps of the six
Gosvamis of Vrndavana, all svamis and gosvamis should fully engage in
the transcendental loving service of the Lord. As opposed to this, the
go-dasas engage in the service of the senses or in the service of the
material world. They have no other engagement. Prahlada Maharaja has
further described the go-dasa as adanta-go, which refers to one whose
senses are not controlled. An adanta-go cannot become a servant of
Krsna. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (7.5.30), Prahlada Maharaja has said:
matir na krsne paratah svato va
mitho 'bhipadyeta grhavratanam
adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram
punah punas carvita-carvana-nam
"For those who have decided to continue their existence in this
material world for the gratification of their senses, there is no chance
of becoming Krsna conscious, not by personal endeavor, by instruction
from others or by joint conferences. They are dragged by the unbridled
senses into the darkest region of ignorance, and thus they madly engage
in what is called `chewing the chewed.' " -
I meant that esp. outside India a sannyasi or brahmacari may not get free bhoga, free transport, needs medical insurance, etc. Old times when monks were honored by both kings and people are gone.
> they could be far more transparent about it than they are and be far more accountable
Agreed. Sannyasi should be above suspicion.
> Yes thats probably due to too many fizzy drinks and fancy food.
Maybe. Sounds like envy. Or?
> Always amazes me how someone can only quote transcendental personalities and what they do ... therefore we can imitate...get real!
I gave one example but there are many more. Sannyasis like Madhvacarya or Ramanujacarya travelled with many disciples/servants.
Btw, Caitanya lila provides examples to follow.
> collected thousands upon thousands of dollars for Srila Prabupada only to see it wasted on things like dried fruit for a Sansyasi that he ate without offering any of it, wasted on a temple presidents new car, oh and I also see massive new buildings in Mayapur one of the poorest areas in the world, buildings that will do nothing for no one
When I hear such bad experiences I can feel with those devotees but theirs is a material, not philosophical vision. Friend of mine also had such a experience but his conclusion was different. He said: "I gave my money to ISKCON and that's appreciated by Krsna. If the money is misused, it's the problem of those who misused them. They'll get their karma for that."
It happened. In his case the money was misused by Bhagavan Swami and his karmic reactions are known.
Our envy an enmity won't help to change anything. We're not appointed as judges so we shouldn't judge if we don't want to be judged ourselves. Very simple but very hard to follow for some.
> There should be a basic list of rules for a Sannyasi (which do exist by the way and its fair to say not one Iskcon Sannyasi follows them
How do you keep track of all their doings? -
How do you keep track of all their doings ?
I believe that is one of the reason why His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada set up the GBC.
One of its purpose is to ensure that the devotees are taught and regularly follow the rules and guidelines
given. In this case if a sannyasi has side tracked for whatever reason from following these rules then
he is to be advised or reminded or politely asked to step down from being a sannyasi. There is no two
ways about it. A devotee who has decided to take up the sannyasi order should sincerely know whether
he is ready to renounce all worldly things and follow the renounce order of life. If he is not then he should not
do it. If he is requested to take up the sannyasi order he should give his reasons and politely decline it.
A vaisnava is someone who is truthful and sincere besides having other virtues.
Is this not so , Prabhu Veda. -
> When I hear such bad experiences I can feel with those devotees but theirs is a material, not philosophical vision. Friend of mine also had such a experience but his
> conclusion was different. He said: "I gave my money to ISKCON and that's appreciated by Krsna. If the money is misused, it's the problem of those who misused them. > They'll get their karma for that."
> It happened. In his case the money was misused by Bhagavan Swami and his karmic reactions are known.
> Our envy an enmity won't help to change anything. We're not appointed as judges so we shouldn't judge if we don't want to be judged ourselves. Very simple but very
> hard to follow for some.
For your information the above parpagraph contains the following assumptions I beleive are fallicious:
1. It is material vision to be disappointed that money was wasted.
2. If I give money to the wrong person, there is no fault of mine.
3. Judging people means we are envious.
4. We shouldn't judge people.
Apologies for digressing from the question at hand. -
>> How do you keep track of all their doings ?
> I believe that is one of the reason why His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada set up the GBC.
GBC can't be with the sannyasis all the time. So 'keeping track of all their doings' is not possible.
Agree with the rest.
ad 1. I speak about a specific case when the money was given in a good faith to the spiritual organization. The giver benefits and isn't at fault if the money is later misused.
ad 2. This wasn't the case. He gave it to ISKCON, not to Bhagavan S. personally. Even in that case, as a newcomer, he couldn't ascertain who Bhagavan S. is and what will he do with the money.
ad 3. Yes, if 'judging' is taken in its common, material meaning. Viveka, discrimination with detachment, is something else. It's encouraged to discriminate about our association, etc. but in a detached way (asakti).
ad 4. Definitely not in the material way. -
I did not say GBC should be with the sannyasis all the time neither did i say they should keep track of
all their doing. I said one of its duty is to ensure that the devotees are properly taught and are reguarly
following the rules and guidelines.- meaning in the course of preforming their duty they should be able
to know.
Anyway , as mentioned above { it is fair to say not one iskcon sannyasi is following the basic rules of sannyasa.}
Then what we have is a whole lot of bogus sannyasis running around in iskcon claiming to be sannysis. No wonder
there are complains on them and we have the so called sannyasis going around preaching women devotees as
maya when they should not have any association with women both mentally or physically. So, should they
be allowed to continue as sannyasis ? -
Could someone please provide some examples of what "preaching that women are maya" actually looks like?
Are thereby meant the purports to SB 4.25.41, 4.25.42, and 4.26.26? -
> I did not say GBC should be with the sannyasis all the time neither did i say they should keep track of
all their doing.
You didn't said that but neither you answered "How do you keep track of all their doings?" My view is that it's not possible.
> not one iskcon sannyasi is following the basic rules of sannyasa.
Which basic rules? How do you know?
Baker: Simply put, maya is whatever comes in between jiva and devotional service. If that's a woman, a man, a thing, etc. they're agents of maya. Grhamedhi sukham in 4.26.26 p. -
Interesting reading these comments concerning the sanyasis servants of srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati Prabhupada and our own Srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada made by borokrishna and sg in particular who seem to completely miss the skope and purpose of their services which these devotees perform regularly in iskcon circles....and temples.I have recently been at several preaching festivals where Praladannada swami was merciful enough to bless us with his sweet association.My wonderful local sanyasis Ramai swami came to our rathyatra festivals in both Auckland and wellington cities.Which were hugely successful in both cases.Both gentleman led kiratan and gave inspiring classes.Ramai has been a brahmacari and then a sanyasis for over thirty odd years.He has always been an extremely non-envious ,generous humble servant of srila Prabhupada loyally and dedicatedly continuing his personal mood of sweet surrender for all the years i have known him.It makes me wonder wether borokrishna and sg are infact active iskcon servants ,,,,or are just neophyte fault finders .Who are seperated from serving such great souls by their own insincerity....which is what it appears to my humble self!
-
Actually a sanyasis is meant to travel and use all of maya's gifts....her cars,planes and travel vehicles in the service of krishna to preach and thereby eliviate the sufferings of the conditioned souls.This understanding of using everything in krishna's service was enounciated by Srila Rupa goswami Prabhupada as ''yukta viragya''.This means that because everything belongs to krishna it should be used in his service .....hence money women and material facilities should be for his personal pleasure.
-
Such devotees whom risk everything to follow this ''particular mood'' invariably either perish or advance very swiftly.By such service they become empowered to fully satisfy the previous archarya's and become the beneficaries of their unique blessings and wonderful realizations as i have once or twice over the last thirty years!However being crows,rather than swans many on this site are merely looking to find fault......where none exists.Merely by attempting to serve and risk everything they will eventually become competent and uttama adhikari vaisnava's very rapidly within others non-envious perceptions.....naturally maturing within guru's sweet mercy and empowering personal instructions .
-
Yes a vaisnava is truthful..everything belongs to krishna and the demons have stolen it!He wants to reunite laksmi with narayanna again..however the demoniac are not interested in serving krishna.Hence he has to be ''expert in how to cheat the envious into giving their hard earned money back to narayanna.He is intently honest....on how to make the hard hearted demons favourable ,sympathetic and earnestly interested in pleasing ''guru''.To take the unfavourable preaching environment and turn it into a positive and acceptable platform for the ''ignorant and envious'' to be favourably engaged in krishna's service.He has to learn how to renounce his own enjoying spirit.....while forfilling his natural duty.To give pleasure to krishna's senses.Yes he has to renounce ,but he has to engage everything material and spiritual in the previous archarya's vision of what is favourable.....while rejecting everything which is unfavourable in his veiw....or which he is unable presently to successfully encorporate adequately engage positively in krishna's dynamic service.He must now his own devotional strengths and weaknesses.He must be bold,fearless and extremely determined to succeed in his service to guru and krishna.
-
Since my freinds borokrishna and sg .....you seem ill informed about the sanyasis mood on how to please radharani's intimate servants successfully ,please refrain from criticizing until you are better informed and hopefully more non-envious and more inclined to see their service in a more generous spirit,with hopefully a natural preaching '' empathy''hopefully being present.
-
Veda Prabhu = You didn't said that but neither you answered "How do you keep track of all their doings?"
I have answered. In the course of their duty. Just that i do not want to elobrate on it.
= My view is that it's not possible.
And i wish to leave it at that.
= Which basic rules? How do you know?
- There should be a basic list of rules for a Sannyasi (which do exist by the way and its fair to say not one Iskcon Sannyasi follows them) Srila Prabhupada stopped giving Sannyas because so many of them were show bottles, still associating with women, as he said better to be a humble devotee than a show bottle leader! - manasi seva.
Pls read my quote above from the the nectar of instruction. This is basically my understanding on how a
sannyasi should be. -
Sri Govinda Das Prabhu - nice long write up but the topic on hand is " Should there be a GBC law
in relation to Vaisnava etiquette." and of the eight issues listed the one i am talking on is " any sannyasi who
preaches that female devotees are maya should be censured. Its not about borokrishna or sg or who they are
or what they are. If you some input on the topic on hand we would like to hear. -
> In the course of their duty. Just that i do not want to elobrate on it.
Too vague, imho. So you indirectly admit you have no arguments but can't say so straightforwardly...
> - There should be a basic list of rules for a Sannyasi (which do exist by the way and its fair to say not one Iskcon Sannyasi follows them)
Where is that list and how one can claim that 'not one Iskcon Sannyasi follows them'? Quite a bold statement, imho.
> Pls read my quote above from the the nectar of instruction. This is basically my understanding on how a
sannyasi should be.
Ok. Which sannyasis don't follow that? -
Your perception of laws to make senior devotees submit seems very immature....Recently i approached devamrita maharaja and enquired about his unique possibly ''bogus'' vegan mood....he was unwilling to comment at that particular moment.However he expressed his opinion and intention to talk it through at a later date with me.However he was genuinely cultured .....so i also became ''well mannered'' to allow this to happen later on.Personally when dealing with senior godbrothers the GBC should also be accomodating because iskcon should be a house in which the whole world can live in!While personal devotional relationships amongst senior leaders would infact be the proper forum to make initial attempts to influence possible errent sanyasis.Such ''laws '' and heavy handed attempts are inclined to ostricise and alienate such individuals rather than create a positive atmosphere to change their mood and activities for the societys benefit.Veda prabhu is right ....specific examples of sanyasis behaviour which ''seems at odds'' might be necessary!
-
Actually personally i see that there is a certain american inspired ''liberated woman mentality'',which is appearing within iskcon recently .....which is alien to vedic culture and is quite aggressive in nature.Women sitting on vyasasana's preaching to men is bogus......at least it is unless you are ''Jahnavi devi takurani''.Wether a sanyasis is preaching women are maya should be taken ''case by case'',.....after all women in iskcon fail to usually ''even cover their heads''.They many times are not married at a suitably young age and then are definitely responsible for creating disturbances when aggressively looking for devotee future husbands....all because we have not freely married our young teenage girls to older men according to vedic custom.Until this is properly instituted they are ''maya'' in my humble opinion.
-
Two branches of Ramanuja sampradaya - their view of sinners: http://saranagathi.org/blogs/gopala-desikan/
The Tenkalai school states that the sins of a devotee are pleasing to the Lord; just like the dirt in the wife’s body is pleasing to the husband; or the dirt in the calfs body is pleasing to the mother cow.
The Vadakalais say: The Lord ignores or does not see the sins of the devotee.
In the examples given, the husband or the mother cow does not hate the wife or the calf, respectively, because of the dirt. The dirt however is in due course cleaned. Similarly, the sins of a devotee are not seen by the Lord.
Compare with BG 9.30-31. -
Veda prabhu = Too vague, imho. So you indirectly admit you have no arguments but can't say so straightforwardly.
There is nothing to admit or don't admit here. To me the subject on GBC and the preformance
their duty ends here.
= Ok. Which sannyasis don't follow that?
On this i admit that i cannot name any sannyasis as i have no association with any of them.
Neither do i have any association with any devotees. I am a person who is living outside the
realm of krsna conciousness.
So , prabhu do you still wish to continue your arguement with me on whether a sannyasi
should be censured for preaching women devotees as maya. -
Sorry, meant to say i am living outside iskcon.
-
To call or preach about women devotees as maya ( an illusion) by sannyasis or for that
matter any other male devotees in general, in my opinion are considered to be
uncultured vaisnavas. This has more to do with their attitude and improper upbringing.
in Krsna Consciousness.
I am signing off from further discussion on this topic.
In prostrate position, my humble apology to whoever i have offended . -
Hare Krsna
-
Only grihasthas (women) can preach that women are maya !!
-
>sri_govinda_das: Women sitting on vyasasana's preaching to men is bogus.....
What proof do you have that you are a man? You don't even have a mustache. -
sorry dweller in peace....i am unable to provide you with a mustache....however some gaura yoga centre females seem intent on providing their ''unique bearded women in charge''look .I would suggest you continue your'' intelligent'' search in that direction!
-
What is gaura yoga? I have heard Bhakti yoga, astanga yoga, jnana yoga, dhyana yoga etc. but not gaura yoga. Is it from Caitanya Caritamrita?
-
Devamrita's preaching centres,are infact called gaura yoga centre or the loft! within new zealand
-
>however some gaura yoga centre females seem intent on providing their ''unique bearded women in charge''look .I would suggest you continue your'' intelligent'' search in >that direction!
A man without mustache is like a woman with mustache. So thanks to Srila Prabhupada, he has cut the mustache of everyone in ISKCON. It has very deep meaning. It means give up your false ego. You are just a woman with mustache :-) -
> VEDA:
> ad 1. I speak about a specific case when the money was given in a good faith to the spiritual organization. The giver benefits and isn't at fault if the money is later misused.
> ad 2. This wasn't the case. He gave it to ISKCON, not to Bhagavan S. personally. Even in that case, as a newcomer, he couldn't ascertain who Bhagavan S. is and what will he do with the money.
Some food for thought VEDAji:
Acyutänanda: If a man says, "I am giving you this donation because it is a spiritual organization," but if the money is misused, does that man benefit?
Prabhupäda: If money is misused, then both of them become implicated. If it is not used for Kåñëa, then both of them becomes under the laws of karma.
(March 14, 1976, Mäyäpur)
Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Discussions1,259
- Health59
- Other127
- Philosophy728
- Sadhana73
- Social217
- Tech55
In this Discussion
- Baker January 2010
- borokrsnadasa January 2010
- deena January 2010
- dweller-in-peace January 2010
- Kyros January 2010
- manasi_seva January 2010
- NityanandaChandra December 2009
- sg January 2010
- VEDA January 2010