Philosophy: [Closed] Narayana Maharaja speaks about ISKCON leaders

did not watch it - tell me is he talking about all the leaders or only the leaders that blast him?

Unfortunately narayanna maharaja is very elderly and is showing sadly his inability to actually appreciate what srila Prabhupada accomplished.By calling Srila Prabhupada...... swami maharaja he is intentionally belittling our founder archarya's unique position. .He is calling ISKCON a mundane organisation,though his team is expert at stealing our devotees....they are very envious of our temples and creation of devotees. We have the srimad bhagavatam and the bhaktivedanta purports which are the immense difference between the gaudiya math and iskcon generally.Sadly he is intent on stealing srila Prabhupada's legacy for his own purposes.

Iskcon is empowered by srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati maharaja because we established a GBC ....which narayanna maharaja and the previous gaudiya archarya's failed to do.Especially ''Ananta vasudeva''...who eventually became the foremost archarya in their line was attracted by the ''archarya '' position ,rather than forfilling their guru's instructions to form a governing board commission!
As a consequence of their personal desire and benefit being the dominant principle within their hearts their united society dissolved as was seen in their history whereby everything broke up!Hence without a united preaching movement they have failed their guru immensely,by thinking they know better individually than their own param guru.Srila bhaktisiddanta saraswati Prabhupada. !
Much should be learnt from there ''selfish desires'' to be the ''archarya''........ at the expense of following the order of their own spiritual master and his divine instructions to set up a GBC.!

Finally a voice of reason here at Pariprashnena. Manasi seva Prabhu --- your comments are like a fresh aromatic breeze in an atmosphere stale with smoke and hot air.

A note for sri-govinda-das .... why do you so often write "in my humble opinion" when you make your inane comments? 'First of all -- why are you giving us your opinions when you should be giving us authorized statements from Guru, Sastra and Sadhu. Secondly -- there is absolutely nothing humble about you nor your opinions so why do you cheapen that word constantly? One last thing -- if I were to make a large contribution to your local ISKCON center on the contingency that you not speak or write for one year -- would you go for it?

Well some say he was never active in the Gaudia Math but that is not correct, as a Grhasta he was very active in collecting funds, helping with preaching events etc. This can be read from the conversation Srila Prabupada had with BR. Sridhara Swami in 1973. Here is one excerpt that shows how active he was, he helped establish the Bombay Gaudia Math.

"In my householder life I had opened an office in Bombay for our business. The Bombay Gaudiya Math was established by Sridhara Maharaj and myself. We made two parties for begging, collecting alms, Sridhara Maharaja, myself, and Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaja. So, I took them to my chemist friends and we collected about five hundred rupees. Sridhara Maharaja would speak, I would introduce, and Goswami Maharaja would canvass." [Lilamrta, Vol. 1, p. 81]

Here is the full online transcript: http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/affection_unabridged/oag_a_1.html

There are transcripts of Srila Prabhpada discussing the factional infighting that was taking place in the Gaudia Math while Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja was still on the planet, under advice from his Guru he did not stay in the Gaudia Math.

> It depends how the money is used - either for Krsna or for maya.

Even if the money is used for Krishna? if too much emphasis is placed on collecting money it interferes with devotional life. How many devotees I saw being totally burnt out by money collection, some travelled on the road for months at a time, and quite often did not attend temple programs for weeks. Some of them blooped on the road. It was so off the wall, the general idea was pushed that if you couldn't make money for Iskcon you were of little use to Iskcon. Devotees were being ranked on their surrender/sincerity/advancement by how much Laxmi they collected, talk about a deviation.

N.M. is a breath of fresh air finally a guru who says "I don't require money, I want to help you"

There is even a video of Srila Prabhupada saying if we make extra funds print and distribute books that should be the first priority.

Of course some funds are required for book printing, temples, programs etc. no argument, but when it becomes the main activity and collectors are considered advanced by how slick in sales they can be then its wrong.

Sri govinda das is out of touch with reality. In the interest of sanity and defending the good name of my spritiual master and the Holy Name of God -- just about every single thing he writes is completely off the wall. He has zero .. and I mean ZERO .. understanding of Srila Prabhupada's mood, mission, priorities, teachings, instructions. He takes the name of Srila Prabhupada in vain and that's a dangerous thing for an upstart neophyte person like him. He should be doing 90% listening and learning and 10% teaching and preaching and yet he has it in reverse. To attempt to enlighten him or debate with him is like jumping into a pile of quicksand. He springs right back with a hundred consecutive posts repeating the same nonsense about how he is a front line Sankirtan devotee -- part of some elite in crowd because his ISKCON superiors told him so. When he's done listing all his personal credentials he then goes on and on about how wonderful ISKCON has been doing since the departure of Srila Prabhupada and the ousting of just about all his beloved sons and daughters. The guy is almost comical in his immature cheerleading mentality but yet he is dangerous because he has found herein a public forum which he has apparently embraced with every ounce of his ego (in the name of preaching, of course).

There are a few other chronic posters here who also would do everyone a favor if they'd give it a rest --- but none of them compare to this one guy from New Zealand. I mean we're talking coocoo for coco puffs -- full goose bozo bananas jelly rolls nutso.

Sorry, I can't find any specific instruction from BSST about SP's leaving GM on that page.

Srila Prabhupada's commenting concerning ''the law of disciplic succession '' really does not fit well with your concocted ideas manasi seva and portnoy!Or that he is giving him ''power of attorney'' to continue the law of disciplic succession after his personal absence!

manasi_seva: It was so off the wall, the general idea was pushed that if you couldn't make money for Iskcon you were of little use to Iskcon. Devotees were being ranked on their surrender/sincerity/advancement by how much Laxmi they collected, talk about a deviation.

Things have changed dramatically since that time, there maybe some collecting still going on to support important preaching programs (I know that is the case with IM's very powerful preaching in Poland etc.)....generally ISKCON temples have de-focused away from straight out money collecting and re-focused on book distribution.

Yes well rasa108 it had to change they were burning devotees out fast and furiously and others they were kicking out, I have seen a shift away from money making only because people are no longer prepared to dress up in karmi clothes and tell blatant lies. I have seen no shift back to book distribution. What I have seen is a focus on buildings and assets. To be honest I lost faith in Iskcon a looooooooong time ago and its no longer a place I would look for spiritual guidance,

rasa108:

manasi_seva: I have seen no shift back to book distribution.[/cite]

I think the numbers speak for themselves....total of 3,884,922 book distributed by ISKCON centres in 2009.[/cite]

Exactly! The numbers do speak for themselves. Most of today's devotees think 4 million is a big number, forgetting that it is well less than HALF of the number that was being distributed 30 years ago!

Who's on first?

Lastly he replied to a letter from Tutsa Krsna Swami in New Zealand. Tutsa Krsna Maharaja belongs to a group of devotees who split away from ISKCON seeveral years ago. They disagreed with certain methods of book distribution and the managerial structure within ISKCON. The leader of this group have their own ideas about spreading Krsna consciousness, Tutsa Krsna Maharaja writes to Srila Prabhuapda regularly. Tutsa Krsna had previously recommended various people for initiation, but before accepting them wanted to know if Tutsa krsna Maharaja himself was following. Tutsa Krsna"s letter letter contained positive confirmation, and Prabhupada wrote back, "every student is expected to become acarya. Acarya means one who knows the scriptural injuctions and follows them practically in life and teaches them to his disciples. I have given you sannyasa with the great hope that in my absence you will preach the cult throughout the world and thus become recognized by Krsna as the most sincere servant of the Lord. So I am pleased you have not deviated from the principles I have taught, and thus, with power of attorney go on preaching Krsna consciousness. THat will make me very happy as it is confirmed in the Guru_astaka: 'yasya prasadat bhagavat-prassadah'. Just by satisfying your spiritual master, who is accepted as the bpna fide representative of the Lord, you satisfy Krsna immediately without any doubt. Prabhupada also alluded to Tutsa Krsna's independent mentality, carefully encouraging him to keep him close. "Keep trained very rigidly, and then you are bona fide guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your spitirual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disapperance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic successsion. I want to see my disciples become bona fide spirtual master and spread Krsna consciousness very widely; that will make me and Krsna happy......

Greetings Forum Participants,
Nityananda-Gauranga! Radhe-Krishna! All glories to Shri Guru and Gauranga!

I have just read a number of statements by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Shrila Prabhupada wherein he praised his God brothers for their preaching work. He dismissed their apparent differences as "spiritual disagreement", that is something not to be taken seriously by his disciples, such that they develop a negative and condescending attitude toward them and run the risk becoming offenders. If "they" are all such rascals, why did Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati think they were worthy of being initiated and engaged so successfully in preaching all of India? Who are we to pass a negative judgment on the judgment of our Grandfather and Father?

There is also the concept of Parivara, which is the group of disciples carefully following their Spiritual Master's instructions. The instructions of Shrila Prabhupad [Bhaktivedanta Swami] are very explicit that preaching by his disciples is to be undertaken through cooperation with a GBC. His own spiritual master, Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, instructed this to his disciples also. Due to "spiritual differences" the GBC was not established among his disciples after his departure. Shrila Prabhupada's instructions are also very clear that his disciples are to live in Urban Monasteries, and Rural Villages. The principle is that all of his disciples abandon fruitive work as wage slaves among non-devotees so they can live among Vaishnavas for the performance of pure devotional service.

We see in the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya, in the line from Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta, that GBC and Daivi Varnashram development are severely limited. ISKCON is the only place a GBC is present, and, as far as Daivi Varnashram Village development is concerned, it is practically absent everywhere. The Village program has been abandoned in favor of building Urban Temples supported by a congregation of fruitive workers as wage slaves in the surrounding mundane society.

Some devotees may spent hundreds of lifetimes observing and criticizing the activities and opinions of the devotees in other Parivara, but, to what avail, when their own house is nearly in ruins or incompletely built? We need to understand that the disciples of a particular Guru evolve a firm faith in that Guru and do not like to see him, or their Parivara under attack by others. When one Parivara is attacked, the natural response is to become defensive and retaliate. In this way, a kind of civil war breaks out between Parivara and, in many cases, the common goals of each are neglected. What is needed is a common enemy to bring all Parivara to the front in cooperation. That common enemy is the erosion of the Sampradaya due to neglect of certain very important instructions from the predecessor Acharyas.

The common goal of all Gurus and disciples in all Parivara in the line of Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta are [1] Cooperative preaching via GBC and [2] Daivi Varnashram Village development. These are not the personal inventions of Shrila Prabhupad but the over arching vision and instructions of Shrila Bhaktivinode Thakur and Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, to whom we all owe allegiance and obedience. How is anyone, claiming to be their disciple, qualified to reject these as unworthy or impractical? It is unfortunate that these are not being undertaken everywhere at this time, but that is not sufficient reason to neglect them.

Until these two very important items are taken care of, the various inter-Guru and Parivara issues of who is following, who is fallen, who is authorized, and who is qualified to give instruction to whom, etc., are moot points, just like the kettle calling the pot black. Let each Parivara gets it's house in order before pointing out dirt or faults in some other house.

As soon as these instructions of the Preceptor Acharya's are followed, inter-Parivara contention will be greatly reduced, and there can begin to evolve a true sense of non-sectarian fellowship and good will among Parivara.

With respect and appreciation
Prabhupad Das Karapurnam

Why should ISKCON devotees take such narayanna maharaja comments seriously since his line has failed to please srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati maharaja by forming a GBC?SRILA PRABHUPADA comments they became ''useless and offensive ''.....ect.

Sorry prabhu's portnoy is indeed correct it should have been ''transcendental diary'',however it is also valide to note srila prabhupada's veiw that we are meant to follow the Governing body commission or gbc.,otherwise we will also become useless!Seems like the same desire to be the next ''Archarya '' is also present now having just watched the video.

The family tree (disciplic succession) descending from Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is a complex one and is full of so many wonderful devotees. There has never been a time when access to the inner most transcendental pastimes of Srimati Radharani and Sri Krishna have been more accessible on a world wide basis.

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur had two sons that were great Vaisnavas including Bimal Prasad (later Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur), and Lalita Prasad Thakur. The two brothers had different views on how their father's spiritual heritage was to carry on, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura was more inclined for preaching and the establishment of Varnashrama-dharma, Lalita Prasad more inclined for the esoteric mode of raganuga-worship.

Both of these great Vaisnavas had many disciples and their disciplic lines continue to this day, all very valid and bonfide although quite different in their moods and application of Bhakti yoga.

Along with Srila Prabupada, Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math (headed by Srila B.S. Govinda Maharaj disciple of Srila B.R. Sridhar Maharaj) has a network of temples across the world, the exact number is not important, but what is important is that Sri Chaitanya's mission continues to spread across the globe and of course Narayan Maharaja also has followers and temples around the globe. I also know that disciples of Lalita Prasad Thakur are active and even authoring books. All making up the wonderful family tree of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

The wonderful thing is now we are no longer stuck with a single choice of one institution the various branches in Mahaprabhu's family tree are also spreading worldwide, such is the mercy of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu he is catering for all his devotees.

If we have any respect or understanding of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu we should know that what he is offering cannot be bottled up and sold by a single organisation, love of god head is dynamic it is not static, it is a practice not a theory while at the same time it is profoundly deep and philosophical. This is an unstoppable force and the caravan of Mahaprabhu continues on at every moment spreading Krishna consciousness not Institutional consciousness.

Jai Sree Radhey!

Although Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati Thakur was more inclined for preaching and the establishment of Varnashrama-dharma, it would be a big mistake to think he had no knowledge of the Raganuga side of worship because after all he had the same Guru as Lalita Prasad Thakur and the mistake I also find very prevalent today is that most devotees think that Srila Prabhupada never taught Raganuga Bhakti...that simply isnt true...and these mistakes come about by people not reading his books.

Vaidhi-bhakti is devotion arising out of a sense of obligation to the rules and regulations (vidhi) of the Vedic scriptures. The fullest expression of vaidhi-bhakti is found in Vaikuntha, the spiritual domain where awe and reverence pervade one's relationship with divinity.

Raganuga-sadhana, on the other hand, directs us to the devotees of Vrndavana, the spiritual realm where one's devotional inclinations are non-calculative, spontaneous, and overflowing with affection.

Srila Prabhupada taught the path of Raga Marga (spontaneous love) and why would he do otherwise? he is following in the footsteps of Rupa Goswami. The path of Raga Marga assures one of success, why? because it contains both Vaidhi-Bhakti and Raganuga Bhakti. Raganuga Sadhana Bhakti is explained in the Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu, which Srila Prabhupada gave us in a summary study, the Nectar of Devotion.

So Srila Prabhupada gave us the complete picture. Firstly clean yourself up by following the Vidhi (rules and regulations) lets face it from the west we are so fallen we must all submit to this and as one advances through study and association of a first class devotee then later the Raganuga Bhakti must also be applied while still following the rules and regulations.

Regulation forms the basis of vaidhi-bhakti and it is not contrary to raga (spontaneity). So these two go hand in hand and as juniors we must start with the vidhi not jump into raganuga otherwise we will make great offense (fools rush in where angels fear to tread), but at some stage we must begin the raganuga aspect otherwise we will stay in awe and reverence.

Some devotees are in confusion over this and they think Srila Prabhupada never taught this, but it is in his books. His Nectar of Devotion is a wonderful summary and the real gold is in his Chaitanya Charitamrta's (this shows the execution). So my advice is to start there, the next step is you need to perform submissive enquiry and perform service to a first class devotee who is connected to the realm. Very few of those around and why do think Srila Prabhupada asked some of his god brothers to help? This is why I do not subscribe to the ritvik concept because you need a living acharya to take you through the final stages.

As far as Lalita Prasad's disciples books are concerned they are very hard to get outside of Navadvip, practically impossible you would need to go there.

Jai Sree Radhey!

I agree with you Portnoy, my real reason or mistake for mentioning Lalita Prasad Thakur was to emphasise Sri Chaitanya's family tree and the differences across the tree, but they are still a part of Sri Chaitanya's tree and some of those branches in the tree emphasise different moods. Srila Prabhupada emphasised world wide preaching and Vidhi as per his Guru Maharaja's request.

I also wanted to emphasise that Srila Prabhupada did make a considerable contribution to Raganuga Bhakti and this is contained in his summary study of the Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu and his Chaitanya Charitamrta's and that his books should be read and considered first before looking at other books on this subject. Although he also warned not to study those books at first, one must prove they are deserving of such study by following all the vidhis and reading the other necessary devotional literature.

However if we are to be seekers after the truth we must know the history and the differences and we cannot always sit at grade one, we must eventually progress through the grades. Please don't read from this that I am saying Srila Prabhpada only gave grade one, or that you are at grade one. As I said above he gave the complete picture the whole course. All that is left to do for people like myself is to surrender and complete the course.

Herein lies the problem for myself, when the sun sets, darkness follows and after the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada maya again overcame many of his disciples. In the presence of the spiritual master, we find our way in Krsna consciousness more easily due to his illuminating presence. But after his departure from this world we are put to the test. For me to complete the course it is necessary to take siksha from a living connected acharya, but that is a personal thing.

N.M. is definitely in the proper disciplic succession and last time I checked he was still living...few could argue he is not an acharya but many do.

I don't say he is the only living acharya, but I do consider him to be a living connected acharya and he is a Bhaktivedanta (title awarded to proven scholars)

Srila Prabhupada took Sannyas from N.M's diksha Guru (Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami)

If I wanted some personal direct instruction on my professional baseball and only one of the greats was still living, I guess the living one would be the one I could talk about my specific and personal baseball issues. In the baseball world due to ego that would be very rare! A pro giving time to a novice, would have to be an exceptional person. Yet amongst the Gaudia Vaisnava's we have the opposite, I just hope I have the intelligence to take up the offer.

sorry my emotionally hopeful manasi-seva...luckily we are not trying out for anything so mundane as a'' baseball team'',however i would suggest than Narayanna maharaja and his small team are essentially disqualified from being part of the iskcon-supernova!Since maharaja on numerious occassions was unable to understand basic ''ISKCON'' preaching terms.....and even straight forward bhaktivedanta purports because he has an inferior preaching flavour compared to srila Prabhupada's ''demons and devotees''.,,,,, would further suggest that this is due to their inability to understand such passages as the following!
But Srila Prabhupada quoted an old saying,If somebody offers you very nicely washed cloth,you should use it!And some property,you must use it''.He said that people are rotting outside of Krishna conciousness and we should help them to develop their spiritual lives.''This is combination of rich man poor man,for krishna.The same,anda pangu-nyaya.Both of them are useless seperately,and when they combine together in krishna -conciousness,they are all useful....So our propaganda is,''They are seperately planning useless.Let them combine together in krishna- conciousness.All this planning shall be successful.''
Jayapataka smiled appreciately.We were all useless in the west,but you came and then engaged us!
Srila Prabhupada took his praise humbly.''It is krishna's desire.Nobody is useless.I was also useless.I could not do in India alone .......anything.''He chuckled.Two uselesses makes useful;intelligence alone cannot work,money is required.A man may have very good brain power,organisation,but if he has no money-useless.So four things required;land,labour,capital and organisation.''....from page 185,hyderabad....a transcendental diary august 1976...
So this is the quintessential difference between Srila Prabhupada's'' iskcon followers'' and narayanna maharaja he does not follow our guru's yukta-vairagya understandings....neither they have the capital or the organisation ...iskcon !Hence they will to a large degree remain inept until they understand srila Prabhupada's sublime utilisation of capital....laxsmi,land,labour and our worldwide organisation! Hence his...[Narayanna maharaja] futile attempts to win votes by politicing against our humble guru's and their wonderful service in contining our unique Bhaktivedanta iskcon legacy.....which he....Narayanna maharaja is not part of. The gaudiya line is generally totally unable to understand the full extent of srila Prabhupada's legacy!Due to their rather sad inability to appreciate his unique devotional mood of demons and devottes and just how to transform the unfavourable preaching environment ...especially within the west,to a favourable preaching feild using wealth,labour,organisation and land.They generally they see it as a material ability....almost like a mundane business!....When we see it as a sublime talent which krishna empowered our param-guru with!

I don't believe what I just read (above). Can you believe this guy? The amazing thing is that he is convinced that he speaks for Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, Gaur Kisore Das Babaji, Bhaktivinode Thakur, the Six Goswamis of Vrindaban, Krishnadas Kaviraja Goswami, Narottama das Thakur, the Panca Tattva .... Lord Siva, Lord Brahma and all the demigods, the Pandavas, and ultimately the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krishna!

Unbelievable!!!!!

VEDA, as I said "he would have to be an exceptional person" Evidenced by the way the coach reacted :) and exceptional because it makes this story unique. Unique meaning un-common..doesn't happen very often...as opposed to common.

But you really don't get it it do you VEDA? I said the Gaudia Vaisnava's are the opposite; meaning: They not only give 10 minutes to the juniors (people like you and me) they give their lives to people like you and me!

Suppose it depends how you define Acarya.


Letter to Janardana -- New York 26 April, 1968: "The statements of
Thakura Bhaktivinode are as good as scriptures because he is liberated
person. Generally the spiritual master comes from the group of such
eternal associates of the Lord; **** but anyone who follows the
principles of such ever liberated persons is as good as one in the above
mentioned group **** [emphasis mine - Mmd]. The gurus from nature's
study are accepted as such on the principle that an elevated person in
Krishna Consciousness does not accept anyone as disciple, but he accepts
everyone as expansion of his guru.
That is very high position, called Maha-bhagavata. Just like
Radharani,
sometimes thinks a subordinate of hers as her teacher, to understand
devotion of Krishna. A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot
commit any mistake, **** but there are persons who are less qualified or
not liberated, but still can act as guru and acharya by strictly
following the disciplic succession **** [emphasis mine - Mmd].