Philosophy: [Closed] Narayana Maharaja speaks about ISKCON leaders

Interesting video showing what NM thinks:

N.M. "I don't require money, I want to help you"

The history of this Sampradaya is not a history of organisations it is a history of exemplary individuals, that is how the spirit or flame passes, to enlightended exemplary individuals. It is our responsibility as humans to seek out these individuals and to inquire from them submissively. Thats what the Bhagavad Gita implores us to do. Enlightened exemplary individuals cannot be rubber stamped by a committee it simply doesn't work like that, common sense tells you that a management committee cannot decide who is on the level of Paramahamsa. The only thing a management committee can decide on is the physical needs of the organisation.

Why not a new thread? N.M.'s comments raises interesting questions and like the admins say "Please use this forum as a humble question and answer facility (pariprashnena). No censorship on (related) themes or comments."

rasa108 is correct "Interesting video showing what NM thinks" and is worthy of discussion, of course if you don't like the thread then don't comment on it...quite simple.

Iskcon has nothing to do with Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati and its empowerment came and left with the advent and demise of Srila Prabhupada. An organisation can never really truly represent living bhakti only a living paramahamsa can do this. That is why even after all the efforts of Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati Maharaja he advised Srila Prabhupada to leave the Gaudia Math organisation (that he put so much effort into) and start a fresh, why? because the organisation is never important only the message is important and that it is delivered by a pure representative of Krishna. Most organisations in the end become self serving and lose the meaning of their original directive.

A committee is for managing the physical requirements of an organization it is not for deciding who will be a guru or acharya, how can a bunch of non guru/acharyas sit around and decide who will be guru/acharya the whole idea is absurd.

Our Sampradaya is a history of empowered living Acharyas, look on the altar and you will see pictures of the Acharyas from Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, The Six Goswami's, Gaur Kishor das Babaji (Yes we do have babaji's in our disciplic succession), Srila Bhaktivinoda Takur, Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami. You will not see any organisations such as Gaudia Math Inc. or Iskcon Inc. why? because we are Acharya/Paramahamsa based, we are not (or shouldn't be) institutional based like the Vatican.

It would be a grave mistake for anyone to say that N.M. is calling Srila Prabhpada's Iskcon a mundane organisation, The Iskcon that he knew and many of us knew was the Iskcon that included Srila Prabhupada's vision, unfortunately that vision was sidelined in 1977 when Srila Prabhupada passed away. So the Iskcon that he is referring to is a vastly different one and indeed is mostly focused on making money.

If I was to believe that devotees could be stolen I would think of them as mindless sheep, most devotees I know are well thought out and seek to no longer be used up by the system or maya and have made a very decisive conscious decision to turn their material lives upside down and to reject a materialistic way of life in favour of spiritual life that dedicates their thoughts, words and actions to their Guru Maharaja and to Krishna. So some devotees have made a conscious individual decision to continue their path of Bhakti with N.M. who they have faith in, that is there right to do so and the truth is the ex-Iskcon devotees that are with him approached him, he did not approach them.

If Iskcon is so empowered by a GBC then why did they go through their darkest hours of child abuse, fall down of most the so called chosen eleven and many of the Sannyasis that the GBC selected and promoted..all this happened under the full view of the GBC...and you call that empowerment?

As Srila Prabhupada once said "I can criticise my god brothers but you cannot" Although N.M does not share the same guru as Srila Prabhupada, they are of a similar era and it would be a grave spiritual mistake indeed to start throwing mud in that direction.

At the very least it would be far more mature to see N.M. in a different mood to the society that is now called Iskcon. N.M's mood is not focused on making money he is focused on bhakti.

> That is why even after all the efforts of Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati Maharaja he advised Srila Prabhupada to leave the Gaudia Math organisation (that he put so much effort into) and start a fresh, why?

Where and when did he advise that? I don't remember reading about it.

> focused on making money.

It depends how the money is used - either for Krsna or for maya.

sri govinda is out of touch with his own TKG on this one. funny

Maybe he is posting from the inside and this is his therapy session, the problem is I am sure he we will drive us full goose bozo bananas jelly rolls nutso long before he makes any progress in the sanity department. At least we know what to get him for his birthday that stylish new wall paper with the extra thick padding! LMHO

manasi_seva: It was so off the wall, the general idea was pushed that if you couldn't make money for Iskcon you were of little use to Iskcon. Devotees were being ranked on their surrender/sincerity/advancement by how much Laxmi they collected, talk about a deviation.

Things have changed dramatically since that time, there maybe some collecting still going on to support important preaching programs (I know that is the case with IM's very powerful preaching in Poland etc.)....generally ISKCON temples have de-focused away from straight out money collecting and re-focused on book distribution.

Yes well rasa108 it had to change they were burning devotees out fast and furiously and others they were kicking out, I have seen a shift away from money making only because people are no longer prepared to dress up in karmi clothes and tell blatant lies. I have seen no shift back to book distribution. What I have seen is a focus on buildings and assets. To be honest I lost faith in Iskcon a looooooooong time ago and its no longer a place I would look for spiritual guidance,

rasa108:

manasi_seva: I have seen no shift back to book distribution.[/cite]

I think the numbers speak for themselves....total of 3,884,922 book distributed by ISKCON centres in 2009.[/cite]

Exactly! The numbers do speak for themselves. Most of today's devotees think 4 million is a big number, forgetting that it is well less than HALF of the number that was being distributed 30 years ago!

Who's on first?

Greetings Forum Participants,
Nityananda-Gauranga! Radhe-Krishna! All glories to Shri Guru and Gauranga!

I have just read a number of statements by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Shrila Prabhupada wherein he praised his God brothers for their preaching work. He dismissed their apparent differences as "spiritual disagreement", that is something not to be taken seriously by his disciples, such that they develop a negative and condescending attitude toward them and run the risk becoming offenders. If "they" are all such rascals, why did Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati think they were worthy of being initiated and engaged so successfully in preaching all of India? Who are we to pass a negative judgment on the judgment of our Grandfather and Father?

There is also the concept of Parivara, which is the group of disciples carefully following their Spiritual Master's instructions. The instructions of Shrila Prabhupad [Bhaktivedanta Swami] are very explicit that preaching by his disciples is to be undertaken through cooperation with a GBC. His own spiritual master, Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, instructed this to his disciples also. Due to "spiritual differences" the GBC was not established among his disciples after his departure. Shrila Prabhupada's instructions are also very clear that his disciples are to live in Urban Monasteries, and Rural Villages. The principle is that all of his disciples abandon fruitive work as wage slaves among non-devotees so they can live among Vaishnavas for the performance of pure devotional service.

We see in the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya, in the line from Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta, that GBC and Daivi Varnashram development are severely limited. ISKCON is the only place a GBC is present, and, as far as Daivi Varnashram Village development is concerned, it is practically absent everywhere. The Village program has been abandoned in favor of building Urban Temples supported by a congregation of fruitive workers as wage slaves in the surrounding mundane society.

Some devotees may spent hundreds of lifetimes observing and criticizing the activities and opinions of the devotees in other Parivara, but, to what avail, when their own house is nearly in ruins or incompletely built? We need to understand that the disciples of a particular Guru evolve a firm faith in that Guru and do not like to see him, or their Parivara under attack by others. When one Parivara is attacked, the natural response is to become defensive and retaliate. In this way, a kind of civil war breaks out between Parivara and, in many cases, the common goals of each are neglected. What is needed is a common enemy to bring all Parivara to the front in cooperation. That common enemy is the erosion of the Sampradaya due to neglect of certain very important instructions from the predecessor Acharyas.

The common goal of all Gurus and disciples in all Parivara in the line of Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta are [1] Cooperative preaching via GBC and [2] Daivi Varnashram Village development. These are not the personal inventions of Shrila Prabhupad but the over arching vision and instructions of Shrila Bhaktivinode Thakur and Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, to whom we all owe allegiance and obedience. How is anyone, claiming to be their disciple, qualified to reject these as unworthy or impractical? It is unfortunate that these are not being undertaken everywhere at this time, but that is not sufficient reason to neglect them.

Until these two very important items are taken care of, the various inter-Guru and Parivara issues of who is following, who is fallen, who is authorized, and who is qualified to give instruction to whom, etc., are moot points, just like the kettle calling the pot black. Let each Parivara gets it's house in order before pointing out dirt or faults in some other house.

As soon as these instructions of the Preceptor Acharya's are followed, inter-Parivara contention will be greatly reduced, and there can begin to evolve a true sense of non-sectarian fellowship and good will among Parivara.

With respect and appreciation
Prabhupad Das Karapurnam

I am not in any way a follower of Narayana Maharaja. I feel quite satisfied and safe taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada's vani presence in his books, tapes, transcripts of his conversations, classes and morning walks, letters, etc. etc. That being said, however, I don't dare pass judgment on a personality such as Narayana Maharaja. I do not know his heart nor the heart of my godbrothers and sisters who have taken shelter of him and have found in him a siksa guru who can give them instructions and guidance.

In the late 70's and early 80's there was a mass exodus from ISKCON of Prabhupada's disciples because of the terrible deviations that were going on in Prabhupada's name. ISKCON was hijacked, usurped, polluted and destroyed by eleven of my godbrothers who misconstrued the instructions given to them and moreover, forced out anyone and everyone who did not go along with their nonsense. Those were very very dark days and since ISKCON was no longer a viable alternative people went elsewhere looking for shelter. They went to Sridhara Maharaja. They went to Narayana Maharaja. In the beginning even Tamal Krishna, Giriraja and others were intimately associating with one or both of them.

I do know that we are dealing with complex issues. I know many of my godbrothers and sisters who continue to take shelter of Narayana Maharaja as siksa guru or who are affiliated with Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math under the auspices of Srila Govinda Maharaja and they are very intelligent and sincere individuals. Even the ritviks who I adamantly disagree with --- there are very scholarly and serious godbrothers in that camp as well. We may have our opinions and we make our personal choices but we should be careful what we write --- especially on a public forum. In the Kali Yuga we are so fallen that we are for the most part not responsible for what we think -- but writing is another thing altogether.

It's best to offer respects from a safe distance if that is how you feel but be careful about dismissing in writing someone like Narayana Maharaja. That's dangerous territory.

manasi_seva:I also know that disciples of Lalita Prasad Thakur are active and even authoring books.

Prabhu, I would love to hear more about it and buy those books if possible.

Hey - I don't want to get embroiled in any sort of controversy here but I'll say one thing -- if you are a diksa or siksa disciple of Srila Prabhupada -- or a follower of his teachings and consider him in any way your mentor and guru --- then know it for a fact that Srila Prabhupada told us matter-of-factly to stay away from Lailit Prasad. What you do with this information or how you perceive it --- that's individual. I'm not even going to get into the history of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and Lalit Prasad ... the Gaudiya Math ... ISKCON ... I'm just letting you know that was Srila Prabhupada's stand on the issue and his instructions to us. He had his reasons and maybe it was told to us at a particular time for particular reasons that may not be as applicable to today -- and, as I say, it's open to not just one's interpretation and individual subjective approach to Krishna consciousness -- but also whether or not you strictly adhere to Prabhupada's instructions and teachings exclusively.

For myself -- I am an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada and so what he instructed or advised or even suggested ---- is to be taken as my life and soul. That doesn't mean I hammer others over the head with what it. That would be childish and naive. Neither is it a question of denouncing this or that personality. Prabhupada said that the guru knows the pulse of his students and what is good for them and what isn't. He thought it best that we stick to reading his books and not go elsewhere and in some cases (mostly letters and conversations but even in some purports and writings) Prabhupada even named some of those who he specifically did not want his disciples to intimately associate with.

As in most cases ....... if it don't apply -- let it fly. If the shoe fits -- by a few pair while they're on sale.

N.M. is definitely in the proper disciplic succession and last time I checked he was still living...few could argue he is not an acharya but many do.

I don't say he is the only living acharya, but I do consider him to be a living connected acharya and he is a Bhaktivedanta (title awarded to proven scholars)

Srila Prabhupada took Sannyas from N.M's diksha Guru (Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami)

If I wanted some personal direct instruction on my professional baseball and only one of the greats was still living, I guess the living one would be the one I could talk about my specific and personal baseball issues. In the baseball world due to ego that would be very rare! A pro giving time to a novice, would have to be an exceptional person. Yet amongst the Gaudia Vaisnava's we have the opposite, I just hope I have the intelligence to take up the offer.

> A pro giving time to a novice, would have to be an exceptional person.

http://www.oldchakra.com/articles/2001/05/02/diary11/index.htm

SGD your level of english and grammar is so bad you are like a pre-kindy student minus the level of humor and wit that most kindy students posses.

Again! please use the "Check Spelling" link at the bottom of the edit box, yes it was put there for people just like you! Srila Pabhupada was a Bhaktivedanta "Great Scholar" long before computers and the advent of spelling checkers, so please do this forum and its topics some justice and use it and check your spelling , spacing and your grammar! Also please look up the meaning of sentences and paragraphs, these go a long way to making your text readable. Infact go back to school and learn english! If you cannot do that then cut and paste your submission into MS word and use the grammar and spelling checks there, that way you will avoid people thinking you are Bozo the Clown!

You just pasted that same Trash into the other thread titled "Is Srila Prabhupada's formula for preaching enough? Do we have to change it?" that is spamming the forum and you really think your same silly arguments apply to the same threads...OMG you are nuts, are you sure you don't work in a circus?

>>>Hence his...[Narayanna maharaja] futile attempts to win votes by politicing against our humble guru's

Humble gurus in Iskcon? Where? how? when? did something change and I mean radically?...can you name these humble Iskcon guru's?

Tell me what votes does N.M need to win? Watch the video in the topic "Narayana Maharaja speaks about ISKCON leaders" he thinks they are all totally in-sincere simply filling their pockets with money! and how can the Iskcon devotees be sincere if their leaders are in-sin-cere? You get what you deserve! in-sin-cerity begets
in-sin-cerity! You think he wants votes? LMHO!

He doesn't want votes he doesn't subscribe to the rubber stamp/voting process....One thing I love about Narayan Maharaja he is not afraid of calling a spade a spade!

>>>Due to their rather sad inability to appreciate his unique devotional mood of demons and devottes

Can you once, just once give us a reference where this is ever mentioned by Srila Prabhupada because I find this statement borderline insanity!

Great story by Indradyumna Swami. I just wish the proofreader would have looked up the correct spelling of the name because he was Y.A. Tittle .. not Title. Tittle did win many Titles though.

Not only did the story emphasize the importance of giving loving and compassionate attention and guidance to children, but also the importance of being personal. Suppose you were to write a letter to some religious organization and in return you get a form letter response. Wouldn't you be disappointed? Wouldn't you feel offended? On the other hand, if you were to receive a personal letter from somebody who took the time and effort to answer your questions and encourage you to continue writing to them ... wouldn't you feel grateful?

Acharya is in the eyes of beholder

Manasi Seva -- don't waste your breath on an idiot. He still has his head in some DAIRY. This guy is incorrigible. Being a lousy speller and writer is the least of his problems. He misconstrues everything he reads, takes everything out of context, he misquotes, misunderstands and what really irks me is when he uses terms like "our Srila Prabhupada" while dismissing thousands of Prabhupada's beloved sons and daughters as offenders.

The only thing of value that this sri-govinda-das provides is that he is a perfect example of the kind of dull-headed, narrow-minded, programmed, cheerleader, apologist for the post 1977 upa-ISKCON. He is an embarrassment to all serious and mature followers of the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya. I suppose he has convinced himself that he speaks for the entire ISKCON institution and its founder Acarya His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and that is the real travesty, mockery and sham that we are witnessing. Yes, it is very distasteful and difficult to ignore because he spends a lot of time scribbling all over these pages of Pariprashnena. He has done a lot to discourage good people from participating here and he certainly can't take a hint (that he should give it and us a break and back off for awhile, if not permanently. Hopefully he'll discover Dandavats and he can go there and stink up their website.

Oops -- have I launched a personal attack upon sri-govinda-das? I guess I did. Oh well ... sorry about that. I just couldn't resist.

> I would not be consulting his books for my spiritual direction.

He's recording his time spent with Srila Prabhupada. If you can prove he's making things up, please do so.

I'm surprised at you, Veda. Usually you're not that far off the mark. What does the validity of Hari Sauri's DAIRY have to do with the inane dribble coming from sri-govinda-das? If I have to explain it to you then it would be an exercise in futility.

An excerpt from a letter..the letter is from A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada to Sripada Narayan Maharaja dated: Sept 28th, 1966

These letters are scanned originals, showing Srila Prabhupada's Bengali hand writing (they are priceless!) along with the English translations, download them and they will bring tears to your eyes! If they don't then you are simply stone hearted :)

"I received your letter dated 20.9.66 on time. Our relationship is certainly based on spontaneous love. That is why there is no chance of us forgetting each other. With the mercy of Guru and Gauranga may everything be auspicious for you. This is my constant prayer. From the first time I saw you I have been your constant well-wisher. At his first sight of me Srila Prabhupada (Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja) also saw me with such love. It was in my very first Darsana with Srila Prabhupada (Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja) that I learned how to love. It is his boundless mercy that he has engaged an unworthy person like me, in fulfilling some of his desires. It is his causeless mercy to engage me in preaching the message of Sri Rupa and Sri Raghunatha."

How humble Srila Prabhupada was, all I can say is that I know so little!

Srila Prabhupada gets very dis-heartened by the lack of attention of his god-brothers to fulfill a simple task of sending him:
1) One pair of Radha Krishna Dieties
2) Very beautiful dresses, ornaments, crowns. Three changes.
3) Ten pairs of good quality Karatalas from Navadvipa.
4) Three good mrdanga's
5) One Tambura
6) One good quality harmonium
7) Fifty harinama malas, neckbeads, and bead bags.
8) One book of Sat Kriya Saratdipika (by Gopal Bhatta Goswami and Sanatana Goswami)

Anyway Sripada Narayan Maharaja his most intimate friend comes through and all is delivered to Srila Prabhupada.

I missed Srila Prabupada by about twelve months, for all you Srila Prabhupada devotees out there I am so envious of you! that I was not born just twelve months earlier to meet him. I envy you like you could not know. Please bless me that in some simple way I can also serve Srila Prabhupada.

Reading these letters will immediately open a window into Srila Prabhupada's character and give you many realisations. He was no general sort of a man he was very specific and down to the last rupee and very upstanding in character to make sure that if anyone came from India (a mrdanga player) that he cannot be on a tourist visa and earn money on the side. Srila Prabhupada would not stand for it! Breaking the rules and laws of the USA, and some people here claim he allowed illegal activities to take place, they simply don't know Srila Prabhupada, he was REGAL! when you read these letters your jaw will drop!

Enough said read these letters I beg you!

http://www.purebhakti.com/resources/ebooks-a-magazines-mainmenu-63/doc_download/22-letters-from-america.html

manasi_seva:We'll Kula-Pavana the only one here praising Bhavananda is SGD and he is not a Prabhupada disciple. Mostly it is Bhavanandas ex disciples that are still enamed by his Chelsea Girls Aura! But you are exactly right Kula-pavana some of these Iskconites they worship the homo-pedophiles and blaspheme the spotless devotees. All one can say is that you really know we are living in Kali-Yuga!

Bhavananda is basking in the limelight in holy dham's Iskcon world headquarter temple. Same with Guru-kripa. Lots of their godbrothers still heap praises on them while badmouthing NM and other life long Gaudia Matha devotees. One look at Sampradaya sun will prove my point. SGD is a byproduct of that brainwashed bunch. On his deathbed Srila Prabhupada finally decided to bury the war hatchet, apologize and reconcile with his godbrothers. Too bad so many of his disciples don't want to follow his instruction.