Philosophy: Bhagavad-gita

Sorry don't have an answer - but only more questions..

1) one of the English translation of Tattva Sandarba claims that SB does not have exact 18,000 verses - but more like 14k verses - if you add all the "uvacha" words you will get 18K.
2) I have also wondered who wrote the first verse of SB ? Only in the fourth verse, Saunuka Rishi gets introduced.... "faith" based answer is that - it does not matter. But based on this article http://connect.krishna.com/node/247 which is based on Bhati Vinode Takur's Krishna Samhita, the version of SB we have was completed around 900 AD (several thousand years after the incident took place) !!! I have read that Ramanujacharya did not write much about SB (does not mean that he was not exposed to it) but Madhvacharya who appeared few hundred years after Ramanujacharya wrote about SB.

>The argument that SB is post-Ramanuja fails

the 900 AD date is from Krishna.com article which is supposed to be based on Krishna samhita by Bhakti Vinode Takur.

I guess the 900 AD is the "first print" (rather palm leaf scribed) version and pior to that there were many "audio releases" by 4 kumaras and Narad Muni!!

I think this stuff is beyond my comprehension and will leave to th experts to arugue ...

Kula-pavana:So... what is a doubting bhakta to do? It is rather simple... you study the Gita we have today, apply it's instructions in your life - and OBSERVE THE RESULTS. This is the ultimate proof of validity - effects you can observe.

But how can one know, with any certainty, that the observed effects indeed came from applying those instructions? This is still empiricism, it is still claiming that one's mind and experience/practice are sufficient to adequately understand causation. Which puts us right back into the scientists' camp, with the same old doubts and fears that we might actually be totally wrong.

Kula-pavana:At least in my own experience, when it happens, you know exactly the cause and effect.

I couldn't relate.

And to what else can you attribute such changes? Weather? Normal aging process?

Karma, influence of other beings, accident ...

Nonsense... specific changes take place due to specific practices. And on top of that you have experieces of people who took up this process over the last 5000 years.

Oh well. I suppose in the end it all comes down to why one wants to be right, about anything, or about some specific case of causation. Trying to prove oneself to someone who just doesn't care about one is ... impossible.

Baker: I suppose in the end it all comes down to why one wants to be right, about anything, or about some specific case of causation. Trying to prove oneself to someone who just doesn't care about one is ... impossible.

It is not about trying to prove anything to someone else. It is all about proving something to yourself. I came to Krsna consciousness over 30 years ago from really serious yoga practice. I practiced yoga for several years, gradually experiencing the effects of my practices. It took patience, time, and self discipline, but the effects were very tangible and undeniable. With bhakti-yoga it was no different.

Kyros:

These are the qualities you develop if you put to practice the teachings of the Bhagavad Gita.
/.../

But who is the authority on distinguishing whether someone really is like that or not?

Different people often have different ideas about what "kind friend to all living entities" is, for example. They may witness the same event, the same behavior, and one says it was an act of kindness, another it was cruelty.
So who is right?

Kula-pavana: It is not about trying to prove anything to someone else. It is all about proving something to yourself. I came to Krsna consciousness over 30 years ago from really serious yoga practice. I practiced yoga for several years, gradually experiencing the effects of my practices. It took patience, time, and self discipline, but the effects were very tangible and undeniable. With bhakti-yoga it was no different.

Have you ever encountered any opposition from the devotees, who claimed that what you experienced was wrong, illusiory, who told you you have no clue what you're doing and that what you think is bhakti actually is not bhakti, just your wishful thinking?

For some it's primarily a quest for knowledge, for others just money and prestige. But the point here is to go on, trying for one's best.

Kula-pavana: Not really. But even if I did, why should I trust them more than I trust myself?

Because in order to make progress in Krishna consciousness, one needs to please devotees.

Baker:

Kula-pavana: Not really. But even if I did, why should I trust them more than I trust myself?

Because in order to make progress in Krishna consciousness, one needs to please devotees.

Pleasing the devotees is one thing, doing something you perceive as wrong is another. You may politely nod when they tell you things you do not believe in. That should please most of them.

Baker:

Kula-pavana:Pleasing the devotees is one thing, doing something you perceive as wrong is another. You may politely nod when they tell you things you do not believe in.

But that would be lying, would it not? And every lie sooner or later becomes revealed. Moreover, if I don't believe everything they say, this means I do not fit in - and if I do not fit, then I should not be there, should I?

That nodding simply means: I appreciate your concern. You should not believe automatically in everything people tell you. Whether you belong somewhere simply depends on your desires. Devotees are not perfect, give them a break.

Kyros:The qualified person is right.

But how does one know then, how can one see in oneself whether one has developed any positive qualities (mentioned earlier) - if one is not qualified?
Suppose a person practices in accordance with scriptural instructions (at least she thinks she is), and she thinks she has become friendlier / or she thinks she has become more cruel.
How can she tell whether her acting on the instructions is bearing any fruit or not, given that she is not qualified?

>How can she tell whether her acting on the instructions is bearing any fruit or not, given that she is not qualified?

When a thirsty person finds water, she drinks that water and her thirst is satisfied, she need not to ask others whether her drinking of water is bearing any fruit or not. The question is how intense the thirst is?

>I know I am supposed to feel satisfied by the chanting, the prasadam, the associacion, and so on - but I don't.
>I feel like I am a bottomless abyss of dissatisfaction.

It could be because of your previous practice of Budhism and Sunyavada. It is easy to write on a blank slate as compare to a slate on which different writings are there. Then all the tangles have to be sorted individually.

A spiritual guide/master can help.

> But what is that "one's best"?

Determined effort guided by sincerity and devotion. It's measure varies. When building bridge to Lanka, monkeys were carrying huge boulders, while one spider was carrying a tiny sand grain. Sri Rama noticed him and was pleased.

But one has to qualify to be eligible to get the advice of a spiritual master. I don't know how to qualify for that - I don't know how to manage to regularly chant sixteen rounds etc. without burning out from the stress of gritting my teeth. The devotees keep telling me to "just grit my teeth and bear it", to "just do it", to "just beat my mind into submission" - but I can't do that for long.

Or they tell me it's all about my free will and my desire - but that doesn't really mean anything to me, it just opens up a heap of questions.

Interestingly Pradyumna once explained to me that the diacritic mark under the "n" in Krsna signifies that it is not a "dental" but a "palatal"; i.e. the tongue does not touch the back of the upper teeth when vibrating the "na" but rather the tongue curls somewhat and touches the upper palate.

>I don't know how to qualify for that

Bhakti is unconditional. To be qualified is not a pre-requiremetnt but a consequence. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu has declared:

"O my Lord, Your holy name alone can render all benediction to living beings, and thus You have hundreds and millions of names, like Krsna and Govinda. In these transcendental names You have invested all Your transcendental energies. There are not even hard and fast rules for chanting these names."

This is not strictly logical. In other words if you take apart something using your logic, it will not work as it supposed to do, one needs to understand Gita in the wholeness of cultural and yogic framework, not based on limited logic or limited experience. And that included archeological and numerical consideration.

Hare Krishna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Srimad Bhagavad Gita As It Is, 1972 edition, by His Divine Grace A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada is not just one of many English translations of a recorded historical discussion from 5,000 years ago, it is divine medicine for curing the conditioned soul of false identification with the material body, mind and world and removing his causeless unwillingless to devote himself to the transcendental service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada, Introduction Bhagavad Gita As It: "Just what is the Bhagavad-gita? The purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to deliver mankind from the nescience of material existence. Every man is in difficulty in so many ways, as Arjuna also was in difficulty in having to fight the Battle of Kuruksetra. Arjuna surrendered unto Sri Krsna, and consequently this Bhagavad-gita was spoken. Not only Arjuna, but every one of us is full of anxieties because of this material existence. Our very existence is in the atmosphere of nonexistence. Actually we are not meant to be threatened by nonexistence. Our existence is eternal. But somehow or other we are put into asat. Asat refers to that which does not exist."

Definition of Science:
Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is, in its broadest sense, any systematic knowledge-base or prescriptive practice that is capable of resulting in a prediction or predictable type of outcome. In this sense, science may refer to a highly skilled technique or practice. quoted: Wikipedia

The Science within Srimad Bhagavad Gita As It Is:
Srila Prabhupada: "We are preaching Krishna consciousness. That is on the basis of Bhagavad-gita. So the beginning of Bhagavad-gita is the teaching of transmigration of the soul. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara, tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. So that is our first concern, dehantara-praptih. This body will not exist, and we have to accept another body. Krishna says, dehantara-praptih, "another body." Now, there are 8,400,000 different types of body. Which body I am going to accept, there is no education. So I am kept in darkness. So what is the value of my education?

It is science. Tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]—that is applicable both for Hindu, Muslim, Christian, everyone. Just like a Hindu child and a Muslim child. Does it mean that Hindu child will not grow to become young man? Only the Muslim will grow? The dehantara-praptih—a child becomes a boy—that is equally applicable to the Hindus, to the Muslim, to the Christian, to everyone."

The scientific outcome of Srimad Bhagavad Gita As It Is:
If you look at the result of hundreds of thousands of souls who read Srimad Bhagavad Gita As It Is regularly and with faith, it becomes evident that this supremely holy ancient discourse, presented again by Sri Krishna Himself through His empowered devotee, Yuga Dharma Acarya His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, has indeed proven to do what it intends to do-dispell material bodily identification and inspire surrender unto the lotus feet of Sri Krishna, which is the last instruction of Srimad Bhagavad Gita itself. Chapter 18, Verse 66. "Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear."

Srila Prabhupada, Introduction Bhagavad Gita As It Is:
"Bhagavad-gita is also known as Gitopanisad. It is the essence of Vedic knowledge and one of the most important Upanisads in Vedic literature. Of course there are many commentaries in English on the Bhagavad-gita, and one may question the necessity for another one. This present edition can be explained in the following way. Recently an American lady asked me to recommend an English translation of Bhagavad-gita. Of course in America there are so many editions of Bhagavad-gita available in English, but as far as I have seen, not only in America but also in India, none of them can be strictly said to be authoritative because in almost every one of them the commentator has expressed his own opinions without touching the spirit of Bhagavad-gita as it is.The spirit of Bhagavad-gita is mentioned in Bhagavad-gita itself. It is just like this: If we want to take a particular medicine, then we have to follow the directions written on the label. We cannot take the medicine according to our own whim or the direction of a friend. It must be taken according to the directions on the label or the directions given by a physician. Similarly, Bhagavad-gita should be taken or accepted as it is directed by the speaker Himself. The speaker of Bhagavad-gita is Lord Sri Krsna. He is mentioned on every page of Bhagavad-gita as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Bhagavan."