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How to advise a prospective devotee who thinks KC is too hard?
  • Baker
    Greetings.


    I have been working with B. V. Madhava Swami's study guide for the Bhagavad-gita (from here: http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/library/index.htm#3).

    There is this question:

    "How would you advise a prospective devotee who says, "It's too hard. Krsna is asking too much. It isn't worth that much trouble to me." -?"

    How would you advise such a person?


    Thank you for your replies.
  • VEDAVEDA
    You know by practical experience: simply by chanting Hare Krsna mantra. That's all. It is not difficult. Anyone, even a child can do it. So increase this chanting of Hare Krsna mantra and give them nice prasadam. (SB 6.1.20, Chicago, July 4, 1975)
  • Kula-pavana
    Baker:

    There is this question:

    "How would you advise a prospective devotee who says, "It's too hard. Krsna is asking too much. It isn't worth that much trouble to me." -?"

    How would you advise such a person?


    I ask people: So what is this process worth to you? Something for nothing is a bad mentality... make a fair trade.
    If they expect something for nothing, just give them prasadam and let them join the kirtan.
  • radhav
    Point the devotee to this verse http://vedabase.net/bg/8/14/
    Lord Krishna says it is easy...
  • Hari Bhakta dasaHari Bhakta dasa
    Bhagavad-gita - 18.37
  • deena
    I would ask them to seriously compare material life with spiritual life and make their decision based on the outcome of their analysis. If they are intelligent and have sincerely compared the two, they should understand ( at least intellectually) that the two paths are not so different in the amount of difficulties and hard work one has to face, but one path has a uncomparably better result than the other whereas as material life ends in defeat birth after birth.
  • Kyros
    Do what's easy for you. It's better to be sincere than somebody you're not.
  • Baker
    Kyros:
    Do what's easy for you. It's better to be sincere than somebody you're not.


    Does this advice include giving up interest in Krishna consciousness?
  • borokrsnadasa
    Blatantly true. Everyone should be asked to go home, or just go home. It is your choice. If you really have no interest in bhakti, why keep pretending?
  • Kyros
    Baker:
    [quote]
    Kyros:
    Do what's easy for you. It's better to be sincere than somebody you're not.


    Does this advice include giving up interest in Krishna consciousness?[/quote]
    Apply ideals to my statement.
    [br][br]
    Doing what's easy for you means be sincere and practice what you can. If all you can do is come once a year to change a light bulb in a temple, then do that. Devotional service cannot be checked.
  • Baker
    borokrsnadasa:
    Blatantly true. Everyone should be asked to go home, or just go home. It is your choice. If you really have no interest in bhakti, why keep pretending?


    If it is the true nature of every jiva to be a servant of God, then how could it be that the jiva would be able to _pretend_ to have interest in bhakti?
    [br]Such pretense would be possible only if bhakti would be an imposition on the jiva, something additional to him, not something inherent to him, would it not?
  • VEDAVEDA
    Baddha jiva can pretend devotion while the main interest is sense gratification. This is the idea of sahajiya.
  • Baker
    Does this mean that such a person should leave ISKCON and any and all connections they have with devotees?
  • borokrsnadasa
    If someone is doing it only as a show, a pretense, is set on just getting some money or sex out of it, yes, tell him to go home and don't come back. If he has some sincerity in his heart he will come back or will examine the motives as the result and get purified, anyway; this path is very liberal, but should not be abused. It is a school of selfless yoga, and if you are interested in something else, go somewhere else. Of course we will not push anyone out, but just tell them that they should have pure motivations to get the result, or it is just a show. One needs a bit of a purification and self search to stop the show and get to the ananya bhakti level. So do not be afraid to use sharp words, you are uttering them with love.
  • Baker
    VEDA:
    Baddha jiva can pretend devotion while the main interest is sense gratification. This is the idea of sahajiya.


    Does this mean that in order to avoid the sahajiya mentality, one has to persist in one's attempts to execute devotional service, even though it seems grim and meaningless, with a lot of teeth gritting?
  • VEDAVEDA
    If 'it seems grim and meaningless, with a lot of teeth gritting' there's a problem to be found and dealt with. I said that I can't tell anything conclusive about your case, I can only assume it's a general lack of sukriti. Blessings of devotees and prayers for mercy are its prominent sources.
  • Baker
    How am I supposed to feel about this general lack of sukriti? That I am someone deserving contempt?

    (I even had a bizarre dream last night, in which I asked Srila Prabhupada whether I was deserving contempt, and he smiled and said yes. The dream was bizarre because it was like two diapositives projected simultaneously - the devotees in the dream appeared simultaneously in proper devotional clothes, as well as in Western clothes, simultaneously chanting and also singing some worldly tune. Srila Prabhupada wore jeans and played guitar ... One was a scenario with the hippies, and another was a proper Vaishnava one, but they appeared simultaneously, and it was hard to tell what exactly belongs to which scenario.
    I take it everything that occurs in such a bizarre dream shouldn't be trusted, even if it involves prominent personalities ...)
  • VEDAVEDA
    Contempt and self-pity aren't in devotee vocabulary.

    Feel like this "I need some sukriti support. Dear Hari, gurus and Vaisnavas, please allow me to serve you, even though I'm unqualified. If you wish, it'll be possible for me."
  • You are in need of an experienced devotee Bhaktine Baker,to take shelter of .......it is not a difficult process ,you even have dreams of Srila Prabhupada .Which i do not .So carry on with some intelligence ,determination,sincerity and krishna will infact reciprocate with you soon.The problem is your heart is steel caged,seriously hardened ,which means that you are presently unconcious to his responses to your service.Chant and eat only krishna Prasadam prepared by an advanced devotee and become insulated from maya!
  • Baker
    VEDA:
    Feel like this "I need some sukriti support. Dear Hari, gurus and Vaisnavas, please allow me to serve you, even though I'm unqualified. If you wish, it'll be possible for me."


    I can't get myself to feel this way. I am afraid that taking up such a mood would make me vulnerable and invite abuse, while providing no benefit whatsoever.[br]


    [br]
    sri_govinda_das:
    You are in need of an experienced devotee Bhaktine Baker,to take shelter of .......it is not a difficult process ,you even have dreams of Srila Prabhupada .Which i do not .So carry on with some intelligence ,determination,sincerity and krishna will infact reciprocate with you soon.The problem is your heart is steel caged,seriously hardened ,which means that you are presently unconcious to his responses to your service.Chant and eat only krishna Prasadam prepared by an advanced devotee and become insulated from maya!


    [br]You have advised this before. I don't have such opportunities, though.
  • borokrsnadasa
    If you think it is too difficult just go home. If you think that serving Hari and vaishnavas will make you vulnerable and invite abuse, you better go home. You will be alright, in the next life, when your determination will mature, there is no loss on this path.
  • VEDAVEDA
    Taking up such a mood is necessary for all of us. Without mercy we can't do anything. Vaisnava doesn't stop his service when abused, rather becomes even more determined. Read about the abuse of Russian devotees (in prisons and lunatic asylums) during Soviet era.
  • manasi_seva
    Baker ultimately you are the one that has to make a choice, that is the freedom we all have, but don't scare yourself away by reading some of the austere commentary and don't let anyone freak you out by telling you that you must give up more than you are prepared to, remember its about love not force. In the beginning it is important to have fun with it. I did, when I discovered my local Hare Krishna temple, I just came for the feasts and the parties and the dancing and the singing and the prasadam and the wonderful stories of this amazing blue coloured boy (Krishna). Nothing hard about that, and you can continue on doing that for the rest of your life.

    However if you wish to go deeper at some point that is totally your choice, as your taste for hearing more about the devine couple (Radha & Krishna) increases they will reveal themselves to you, for every single step you take towards Radha and Krishna they will take many more steps towards you. But have fun and make Radha and Krishna your friends, invite them into your heart, ask them for guidance, its all about Bhakti (love & devotion) in the end. You cannot be devoted to someone if you do not love them and you cannot love them if you do not know them. First make them your friends, read about them, hear about them, listen to the songs that are sung about them (and find out the meaning to those songs), eat foodstuffs that have been offered to them, after sometime love will develop then naturally comes the devotion.

    I agree with you Baker if you force it just because you have read it or because someone is trying to make you believe, it all feels so false, because the act of forcing it is false.

    Your dream appears to indicate that the external clothing that someone wears has little relevance, that is a cultural thing, its about changing your heart not your clothing.
  • Baker
    VEDA:
    Taking up such a mood is necessary for all of us. Without mercy we can't do anything. Vaisnava doesn't stop his service when abused, rather becomes even more determined. Read about the abuse of Russian devotees (in prisons and lunatic asylums) during Soviet era.


    It is the devotees that I am more afraid of.[br]

    [br]It has been my experience that people who are into spirituality are capable of a cruelty and manipulation that run-of-the-mill people are not.
  • deena
    > >It has been my experience that people who are into spirituality are capable of a cruelty and manipulation that run-of-the-mill people are not.

    I heard story about this phenomenon from a senior brahmacari Prabhupada disciple. He lived in the brahmacari ashram for 15+ years in Vrindavan and due to some family obligations had to visit his family. He stayed at his sisters house for a short period. He told me he recalled that at while staying there he felt a sense of peacefulness that he hadn't experienced in the brahmacari ashram. Thinking about why this might be, he realised that during all his time in the brahmacari ashrama there was not a single day that he did not have to worry about his few possessions being stolen by other brahmacaris wheras at his sisters house he did not have to even think about his stuff, he knew it was safe. He laughed at the irony that among 'spiritual' people he was full of anxiety whereas among his karmi, meat-eating relatives he had no anxiety; "With friends like these, who needs enemies."
  • Kyros
    Baker:
    [quote]
    VEDA:
    Taking up such a mood is necessary for all of us. Without mercy we can't do anything. Vaisnava doesn't stop his service when abused, rather becomes even more determined. Read about the abuse of Russian devotees (in prisons and lunatic asylums) during Soviet era.


    It is the devotees that I am more afraid of.[br]

    [br]It has been my experience that people who are into spirituality are capable of a cruelty and manipulation that run-of-the-mill people are not.[/quote]
    This is true. I have an easier time trusting a karmi than I do aspiring devotees.
  • narot
    Manipulation is a feature of kaliyuga clericalism.
  • VEDAVEDA
    > It is the devotees that I am more afraid of.

    Aspiring devotees, to be precise. Kanisthas are basically materialistic minded persons who got some sukriti and just started to wash their dirt away. It's misleading to see them as representing devotional service and thus losing trust in it. (I sometimes give an example that first year students at Oxford can hardly represent Oxford Uni.) This is one of the asuric strategies of mass manipulation.

    > I have an easier time trusting a karmi than I do aspiring devotees.

    I guess you trust only those karmis you know as decent. The same criteria should be applied to devotees.
    Common sense. If some devotee comes from a problematic family background, etc., he'll have a harder time to overcome his conditioning than others and will probably struggle with for a considerable time.
  • Personally faced with the problem of no association ....make arrangement to go to other temples! I f you are in Antartica go for a holiday ....to a wonderful temple near by ! We have 257 according to the last ''Back to godhead'' magazine!Otherwise just chant till you become more sincere!either way you have caught the attention of VEDA prabhu,his siksa ...instruction is very genuine and relevant in my opinion!....After many life times of'' inauspiciousness'' you seem to be at least following his instruction.So just time seperates.....
  • Baker
    VEDA:
    > It is the devotees that I am more afraid of.

    [br]Aspiring devotees, to be precise. Kanisthas are basically materialistic minded persons who got some sukriti and just started to wash their dirt away. It's misleading to see them as representing devotional service and thus losing trust in it. (I sometimes give an example that first year students at Oxford can hardly represent Oxford Uni.) This is one of the asuric strategies of mass manipulation.


    I'm not saying kanisthas represent devotional service. But it seems to me they do have the power to make one's nama-hatta or temple visits unbearable, simply by persistently ignoring the newcomer, thereby making him feel unwelcome and redundant. To me, they are like the lower secretaries one has to get past if one wishes to see some high authority. If throughout the hierarchy of those secretaries one doesn't get permission to move up to the next level, one simply will not get to meet the authority one wishes to meet. In this sense, a doorman can prevent a person from seeing the president, for example.[br]

    [br]It's almost like in Kafka's "Vor dem Tor des Gesetzes" or "Gib's auf".
  • VEDAVEDA
    two solutions off the top of my head:
    There're many senior devotees including gurus who're easy to keep in touch with thru email, etc.
    Some devotees move to other places with better sangha if they see it as the only solution to continue their bhaktiyoga.
  • Baker
    borokrsnadasa, mung -

    Why are you thanking me?
  • Baker
    VEDA:
    two solutions off the top of my head:
    There're many senior devotees including gurus who're easy to keep in touch with thru email, etc.


    I have tried that, but it doesn't really work ...[br]


    [br]
    Some devotees move to other places with better sangha if they see it as the only solution to continue their bhaktiyoga.


    In order to go through with such a major change, I would have to be really sure about where the problem is. That is, whether the problem is with me, or with the devotees here where I currently live. And I am not sure about that. Perhaps they are exactly the way devotees are supposed to be, it is just I who is wrong.
  • borokrsnadasa
    You had a nice way with words on that one and I agree.
  • portnoyportnoy
    If you have ever gone to an Alcoholic Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous meeting you'll hear over and over how the newcomer is the most important person at the meeting. Then when the meeting is over and everybody begins to file out of the room it's always the same thing. All the old timers clique together, talking and joking, making plans to go out for a cup of coffee together ... while the shaky, insecure, newcomer stands alone, isolated, looking on and wishing somebody would just come over and say a nice word. I suppose that's why the founders of those 12-step fellowships wrote that above all else one should consider principles before personalities --- because unfortunately it is all too often the nature of people to be selfish, hypocritical and mean.
  • VEDAVEDA
    > I have tried that, but it doesn't really work ...

    Still, most devotees do it since their gurus travel and they can't travel with them.

    > I would have to be really sure about where the problem is.

    So you need to expand your association. Visiting temples, festivals, etc.
  • Baker
    portnoy:
    If you have ever gone to an Alcoholic Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous meeting you'll hear over and over how the newcomer is the most important person at the meeting. Then when the meeting is over and everybody begins to file out of the room it's always the same thing. All the old timers clique together, talking and joking, making plans to go out for a cup of coffee together ... while the shaky, insecure, newcomer stands alone, isolated, looking on and wishing somebody would just come over and say a nice word. I suppose that's why the founders of those 12-step fellowships wrote that above all else one should consider principles before personalities --- because unfortunately it is all too often the nature of people to be selfish, hypocritical and mean.


    I know about old timers cliquing together. At first, I thought that my problems perhaps had to do with just that - it's usually difficult to be a newcomer, anywhere. But in time, I have started to wonder whether there was perhaps more to it. Perhaps the whole thing was rather innocent, simply a matter of tiredness and poor communication skills. Perhaps they themselves are not particularly sure about their Krishna consciousness, so they prefer to keep to themselves, and the last thing they want is to be faced with someone who has a tendency to ask difficult philosophical questions and probe everything for precision. Perhaps they found it confusing how someone (like I) can be relatively good in philosophy, but do poorly in the faith department. Perhaps they were put off by my bringing my own towel (instead of using the paper ones), my own plate, spoon and cup (instead of using the disposable ones), always with a notebook and pen ready, sitting in that rigid back straight position. Perhaps they experience me as stuck up or uptight. But perhaps they just don't like me and don't want me there. Perhaps ...
  • Baker
    VEDA:
    So you need to expand your association. Visiting temples, festivals, etc.


    I don't feel ready for that. I don't feel comfortable going to any establishment run by devotees. If there would be lectures or other events in Krishna consciousness hosted by the university, the library or some other neutral institution, I would gladly go.[br]


    [br]Anyway, I think it is high time that I somehow make an end to these speculations and insecurities about my position. I have written about it to a teacher, but received no reply. I'll have to find some other way.
  • portnoyportnoy
    So Baker --- what's really going on? Do you believe Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead? Do you believe Bhagavad-gita contains the very words of Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead? Do you believe that Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavad-gita As It Is presents the teachings of Lord Krishna purely and perfectly? Do you believe that the Mahamantra is transcendental sound vibration that can purify you and awaken you, cleanse your heart and take you back to the spiritual world?

    Obviously you are attracted to Krishna consciousness. So what is the problem? What is the difficulty? What is the question? What's REALLY going on with you? Come on -- out with it. Enough with the words and the psychobabble. You're all over the place here with the "what about this and what about that and what if this and what if that and should I or shouldn't I, could I or couldn't I, yada yada yada. Good God in heaven --- you're making me dizzy.

    In 25 words or less --- what exactly do you want to know?
  • narot
    When was the last time YOU protnoy went to the sunday feast lecture and where? In 5 words or less?
  • portnoyportnoy
    Was I talking to you narot? Fuck you! Get off my back. Is your name Baker, shit for brains? Who appointed you the Portnoy watcher? I'm addressing somebody by the name of Baker and you chime in you piece of shit.
  • narot
    A simple question. When was the last time you actually went to the temple. And if it was some 20 years back, what gives you the right to question Baker?
  • portnoyportnoy
    I don't think you heard me simple question asker. I said FUCK YOU ASSHOLE. Did you hear that? I don't answer questions asked by an asshole. You are an asshole. You are asking me a question. Assholes don't get their questions answered -- they just get to hear that they are assholes since they may not realize that they are assholes and need to be reminded over and over and over and over again that they are assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes ----- and let's put an adjective in front of assholes defining the type of asshole Narot is. He is a fucking asshole -- that's the kind of asshole Narot it. Any more questions asshole? I'll be glad to answer them in this way so keep on asking. I have one for you -- when was the last time you looked in the mirror and saw something other than an asshole? Was it two years ago? Twenty years ago? It doesn't matter because once an asshole always an asshole -- unless of course the asshole realizes he is an asshole and tries his best to unasshole himself. There's a process for that but you aren't ready for it yet.
  • mung
    Baker:
    borokrsnadasa, mung -

    Why are you thanking me?


    The Kafka reference did it for me.
  • mung
    Portnoy, please tone it down. Don't let them get to you, have a break from posting, gather your thoughts without vulgarity - it makes it a lot easier for people to see your point then.
  • My dear bhaktine baker please accept my kind wishes in your progressive cultivation of Krishna conciousness.Recently i drove several hours to the sunday feast program.However after fifteen minutes my wife came to me and asked to go home!She was unwelcome ....since non of the women were happy to see her!When she greeted them...... they were''rude''. They refused to simply respond to her sweet ''haribol'' and smile.
    Feeling hurt she came to me....'' exploding in tears''!
    I told her that she was infact the senior devotee,even though not initiated because she preaches at every chance she gets!She has made krishna conciousness tangible and sublime for her 5 children,and after serving the devotees and krishna for ten years selflessly,she should understand it is just the modes of maya! Upset by this cruel, insensitive and very unfortune behaviour by these neophyte women devotees...She walked out to the car.Where she sat inside to cry profuse heart felt tears!Since she never fails to be the first to preach in every opportunity,i put it down to my aggressive nature and persona....which she has caught the back lash of amongst the''Four breats'' mentality!
    Unfortunately this was symptomatic of a certain impersonal selfish ''cutural mode'' present within the local european -caucasian devotee in New Zealand .Which even several chinese and indian devotees have unfortunetly adopted also.Which regrettable has created ''clicky groups'' within Srila Prabhupada's spiritual family.Such is the material conciousness which enters when these persons ''no longer go out to selflessly preach''
  • portnoyportnoy
    Mung -- Thank you and you are so right. Really -- thanks a lot. I know -- I'm letting some of these guys get my blood pressure up. I don't mind immaturity and stupidity -- but when some upstart out of nowhere passes harsh judgment on somebody like Hayagriva --- or when another of them constantly uses the words "our Srila Prabhupada" and then goes on to completely misrepresent, misinterpret and make a mockery of Srila Prabhupada's mission and teachings ----- it really pisses me off. I know it's useless to try to reason with certain individuals here and so I'm left with the choice of either remaining silent or trying to shout them down with vulgarity.

    Having said all that --- still you are very right and I needed to hear it -- especially the way you worded it. I appreciate it very much, Mung. Thanks again. Yeah - I'm going to back off and take a break from this website.

    Well -- next week is Gaur Purnima. All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga!
  • future_hope
    @Baker:
    I know what you talking about. Are you from germany? If you are really literate in philosophy and ask difficult questions you are probably going to get into trouble in the temple ;) If you are that kind of interlectual person, then you should associate with this sincere follower of Prabhupada, who presents this movement as a deep science:
    http://transontology.org/
    Maybe you are interested in contact, just drop your e-mail
  • adminadmin
    account created 56 mins ago and a link to your website follows suit. That is called spam and will be deleted. Follow the basic rules, please.
  • deena
    future_hope, funny how the world works.....Are you David Hughes (Gaurahari Dasanudas Babaji)? I wanted to ask some questions about the 'expanded commentary' in Kushakratha's translation of Baladeva Vidybhushana's commentary on Vedanta Sutra which was published by David, but I could not find a contact email address on any of your websites. All I could find was a sign-up for an email newsletter. Please advise if you are David or how I can write a private email to David. Thanks.
  • VEDAVEDA
    Before someone questions who is this person...

    David B. Hughes, later Bhaktisiddhartha Dasanudas, was initiated by Srila Prabhupada as Dasanudasa dasa in 1977. http://www.prabhupada.com/disciple.php?letter=D
    Here is an interview with him from 2003: http://www.adi-vani.org/articles.php?articleId=26&page=&show=all
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