Certainly being disciple does not imply qualifications. It appears it is stratifying the ISKCON society into ranked groups defined by diksa from Prabhupada, do you think stratifying the ISKCON based on this exists?
What about sannyasins who are not Prabhupada disciples? If they get less respect than ex-sannyasins, because those were diksas of Prabhupada, what you say may not work.
The ''empowered army of hippies" does have a system of making one hippie superior to another. It only works if you only expect to have those who respect this system to become part of it. I have no respect for hippies, thus they are not my siksa gurus. You do, it seems. But the problem is that the cast system of some old hippies being siksa gurus is not supported by sastra, sadhus and Prabhupada. And that is something you have to agree, because there is no place in sastra suggesting that an old hippie is a siksa guru, because he is old.
It is true that as with any cast system -- it only works because there are those who support it. The assumption that I am bereft of the mercy of devotees, because I do not support a cast system one way or another is a false statement.
Forgive him, for he believes that the customs of his tribe are the laws of nature. - George Bernard Shaw
Thanks portnoy. I was talking about CAST (as in something you cast over a dead body). So do you think that just because one is initiated by Srila Prabhupada, one is superior and that is cast in stone?
Most definitely! I don't mean to cast aspersions but yes, when Srila Prabhupada cast his net a few thousand fortunate fish were caught and as for all the rest of the fish in the sea --- good luck. You'll just have to wait for the next bona fide fisherman to come along. In the meantime be good and don't get cast down to the lower species of life. At least hang around the human form while you're waiting for the next messiah. In the meantime, however, you'll just have to wander the material worlds like castaways with no shelter and no home. Thus ends my ridiculous broadcast to all the castes out there from brahmana to sudra and even those who are lower than sudra (kalau sudra sambhavat).
Now can we get someone from central casting to perform this skit?
Q: Being a direct Prabhupada disciple - caste system?
A: Every disciple and follower of Srila Prabhupada has the right and duty to serve and realise the eternal continuous presence of Sri Guru Jagat Guru His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada and encourage others to do the same. Unfortuntely most take everything externally and miss the connection. This misleads others into thinking they have missed out.
Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter 18, Verse 57. In all activities just depend upon Me and work always under My protection. In such devotional service, be fully conscious of Me.
Chapter 18, Verse 58. If you become conscious of Me, you will pass over all the obstacles of conditional life by My grace. If, however, you do not work in such consciousness but act through false ego, not hearing Me, you will be lost.
Gaurahari. All glory to Guru and Gauranga. With all the uncertainty going on regarding the rtvik/Iskcon debates etc i put a question out there for all to think about. If a devotee is wanting initiation then shouldn't the inspiring devotee be able to choose for him/herself whether one wants initiation under the current Iskcon guru system or whether him/her wants Diksa initiation under the Rtvik guru acarya system that Srila Prabhupada indeed instructed for when he was no longer physically present. For an Iskcon guru to deny would only show how much he is contaminated by the false ego. ie: I want disciples, they are my disciples, etc. It is obvious that everyone agrees that there was indeed a rtvik system the debate is whether it should be continued when Prabhupada was no longer physically present. If we reference SP's final will and instructions there should be no clarity needed. My personal opinion is we should have a choice since it is obvious that the Iskcon leaders/gurus/gbc are not going to be making any changes soon. As we are all striving to go back to godhead then we should be able to choose either copper silver or gold. Who would want copper when gold is available. This may be a way where we can all show our appreciation and gratitude and love to Srila prabhupada by cooperating. This was His simple request. Thank-you Pancali
Just today, the question in Sankarshan Das Adhikari's newsletter was on how to choose a guru. This was his answer:
"Guru means that person sent to you by Krishna who is saving you from the cycle of birth and death. So there is no question of choosing a guru. You simply have to see who is that person who is saving you and fully surrender to him accepting his order as your very life and soul." Sankarshan Das Adhikari
er .. um ... ahem ... excuse me..... Moderator People ... Anybody Listening?
The maniac on board just made a terrorist threat (above). "Death to the sampradaya proponents ....." just doesn't fly on any internet forum -- what to speak of one that is spiritually oriented. Even the Muslim extremists know better than to throw slogans around like that.
Please do something about it and do it quickly. Thank you.
You didn't say the parampara dies due to yada yada yada ...... you exclaimed DEATH TO THE SAMPRADAYA PROPONENTS LIKE THE RITVIK BABAJIS .....
I'm giving the moderators of this forum 24 hours to do something and if nothing is done I'm reporting your post to the proper authorities. You are encouraging homicide. You are a madman. You're sick! Why is it that religious organizations always attract nuts like you? You get to channel your hatred in the name of spirituality. So much horror goes on in the Name of God because of people like you.
SGD >>Death to the sampradaya proponents like the ritvik babaji's are just certain envious rascals helping to purify the line who are looking for ''fame and position''.
Lets ignore the fact that this sentence is so poorly formed, and is borderline illiterate, but let us try and examine what SGD is on about:
SGD says "Death to the sampradaya proponents like the ritvik babjis" sampradaya propents means notable devotee or acharya in our sampradaya, God realized devotees do not wish death on anybody, and Gaudiya Vaisnavas are always full of compassion for the fallen conditioned soul, So I guess we can deduce by this that SDG is neither God Realized (surprise surprise) and he is certainly not a Gaudiya Vaisnava.
The term "ritvik babajis" is also incorrect, The Ritvik group are a breakaway group, some are outside of Iskcon and some are still inside of Iskcon and they want to put Srila Prabupada back in the centre, however they also want to make every new devotee that joins Iskcon a direct dikshya disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Babaji's of which we have many in our Sampradaya including all of the six Goswamis were all white vesh wearing babaji's and they were some of the main disciples of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu who gave us so much of the Gaudiya Vaisnava writings that we have today. So a Ritvik is completely different to a Babji. There are no Ritvik Babaji's that I know about and even if there were why would anyone be wishing death to them?
Now lets look at the rest of the statement ["are just certain envious rascals helping to purify the line who are looking for ''fame and position''] So how does an envious rascal help to purify the line?
Quote me if I am wrong in my interpretation of what this means but let me have a go:
Death to the sampradaya proponents (actual proponents..devotees/acharyas in our disciplic line) Ritvik Babaji's (that don't exist) are just envious rascals helping to purify the line (how does an envious rascal help to purify anything?) who are looking for "Fame and Position" (One who takes on the white vesh babaji cloth has given up fame and position? oh hang on I am confused are we talking about Babaji's or Ritviks? LMHO)
Anyone here should post part of this thread to the Iskcon Authorities in New Zealand, I am sure they would be very interested to learn that one of their illiterate members is asking for the death of other Vaisnava's. The email address for Iskcon New Zealand is: info@harekrishna.org.nz
The admin of this forum should also ban someone who speaks like this, how far does one have to go before they are making a complete mockery of everything that Srila Prabhupada worked so hard to establish, the comments made by SDG are deplorable and he should be banned and a report should be sent to his Iskcon zone management.
Hare Krishna, All glory to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.
It still amazes me that when you put forward a simple question how many devotees can automatically go into a defensive mode and begin to blasheme devotees who are only only trying to search for the ultimate truth. In response to Sri Govinda das we should not let such a person disturb our minds. Reading his previous responses and many other things that he writes about only shows us how much Maya-devi has him in her grasp. We should simply pray to Srila Prabhupada that Sri Govinda das stops committing such offenses for the well being of his spiritual advancement and fully takes shelter of Srila Prabhupads books. For a devotee to say such a thing also shows us that his intelligence is lacking and he really hasn't understood what Srila Prabhupada has tried to teach us. In regards to him saying no more sampradaya no more parampara simply bewilders me. If we are all given diksa initiation on the behalf of Srila Prabhupada then how can there be no parampara. Nonsense speculative bogus philosophy. I certainly will be posting his response to the new zealand authorities here and it is simply refreshing to see so many devotees chastising this man. He is obviously very disturbed and hopefully this will give him a wake up call. Anyway, it is my personal opinion that not alot of people actually have their facts right when it comes to the Rtvik devotees. It has nothing to do with position/post etc we are only simply trying to put Srila Prabhupada back in the center. I have been having darsan with Sankarshan Das Adhikari via email and have put alot of questions to Him in regards to the Rtvik/iskcon debates and have found Him to be very open minded and humble regarding all my genuine enquries. If anyone would like to see the questions and answers just contact my email address pancali5@hotmail.com and i am happy to forward onto you. I also have many references and quotes recorded and documented in regards to how Srila Prabhupada wanted the initiation process to be conducted after He was no longer physically present. Due to all the politics etc i have simply pulled away from Iskcon here in Christchurch and even the Rtvik devotees here in Christchurch act in ways that are not acceptable. Focusing to much on who is right and wrong rather than focusing on the spiritual well-being of inspiring devotees new or old. My service is simply to bring my children up to become Krsna conscious serve my husband read Prabhupadas books daily chant my rounds and worship my murtis while following the four regulative principles. I only wish to keep everyone informed regarding Srila Prabhupadas final instructions. I speculate here but i do think that every devotee should educate themselves in regards to the Rtvik initiations and then be able to make an informative decision. This is what Srila Prabhupada had taught me. I should be the well-wishing friend to all and not cheat anyone. I would never do this if i was not 100% satisfied that Srila Prabhupada indeed wanted all devotees new and old to be His initiated disciple. Why one would say that it is all about position is beyond me. We only wish that all glory go to His Divine Grace and that every disciple take shelter of the one and only diksa guru Srila Prabhupada. For more information or any enquries i am happy to respond to all genuine questions to the best of my ability. All the knowledge that i have obtained regarding the above is referenced and documented. Not my own speculation.
All glories to all the devotees of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
This is a reply for Portnoy regarding the comment he made on 20th febuary. You have basically stated that any other devotee that has not been initiated by His Divine Grace has no home or no shelter. Where is this referenced. When did Srila Prabhupada ever say this. NONSENCE PHILOSOPHY. One must be very careful in making such a strong statement without backing it up according to Guru, Sadhu and Sastra. Your comment is simply mis-guiding and offensive.
I joined in this particular thread relatively late and shortly thereafter the whole topic got derailed but out of curiosity I went back over all the posts including the Portnoy comment that you are referring to. I suppose if you just isolate what he said it would appear that he was being serious; but if you read what was being said in the preceding comments you might take it in a different context and see that he was just being sarcastic. The way I read it was that he was actually spoofing such a narrow minded viewpoint -- (that unless one received initiation from Srila Prabhupada they were hopeless, etc). Think in terms of ..... "satire" ... "parody" ... "lampoon" .... "sarcasm" ...... Anyway -- I haven't seen any posts from Portnoy in awhile so it seems he has dropped out of the scene. I doubt, therefore, that he'll be answering your question but for what it's worth that's my take on what he wrote.
It is always very interesting to hear how one may interpret what was said by another and thank-you for your opinion. I do see your point in regards to what Portnoy said however, i can't seem to see the sarcasm myself. However in light of what he said i have faith in your words as it is the only way i can make sense of his statement as surely no-one could be that naive to think such a thing. Anyway thank-you for your imput in regards to Sri Govinda das. someone needed to check him. In regards to my queries regarding rtvik ect what is your personal opinion.
Direct disciples of Mahaprabhu were a separate class on it's own. It is however true that someone can be in illusion for like twenty years or more. completely covered, and because he got some association with Prabhupada (or not) if he is a direct disciple, he is very much respected by everyone. Now I guess that is how we show respect to Shreela Prabhupada himself. But the history teaches us that they do not deserve this respect.
Greetings Pancali! I'm sorry it took so long to get back to you on your question concerning ritviks. I have done a lot of reading on the issue -- especially the Final Order by Krishna Kant and rebuttals by Jayadvaita Swami. The amazing thing is that both "sides" quote scripture as well as letters and instructions from Srila Prabhupada. My personal opinion is that Srila Prabhupada is available as Siksa guru for everyone and for always and in all ways; however not for diksa initiations after his departure from this world. As for the question of who is authorized and qualified to give diksha -- that's a whole other controversy and separate issue.
I can understand why the ritvik philosophy is so compelling and popular among those who became disillusioned in ISKCON. For many it seems the practical solution to all of the problems that have arisen from gurus who fell away or fell down from their positions.
Dear Hashama. No worries regarding the late reply. Thankyou for your opinion i very much appreciate it. unfortunatly i am unable to trust anything anyone says anymore. So much politics. Iskcon have valid points as do rtvik, NM follwers even Sridhar Svami Maharaja. My only shelter is now Srila Prabhupada. At least then i know i won't be cheated. The Hare Krishna society has become one big dissapointment since Srila Prabhupada left His body. Everyone wants to be controller. Prabhupada says to many gurus only leads to a failed result. Now i find myself after having darsan with many gurus via the iternet that if i chant my rounds follow the four regs and try hard not to cause any offenses towards any devotees with faith and a submissive attitude that when the real test comes at the end of this life that (Krsna willing) i can only hope to get a better birth. I know that we don't want the repeated birth/death etc however i have to be realistic and there is no way i'm going back home when i leave this wretched body. Maybe next birth. Anyway i appreciate the feedback and i hope this finds you in good health.
Thank you for your contributions. But how will you resolve this situation, where being a Prabhupada's disciple is based on initiation and not on qualifications?
But isn't one a siksa disciple of Srila Prabhupada as long as he/she accepts him as guide, teacher, guru, instructor, bona fide representative of Vishnu .. Krishna, sampradaya acarya ... via his vani (sound vibration / teachings / books / letters .......) ??? Is that not also "disciple of Srila Prabhupada?" Of course diksa is another thing and those who appeared before His Divine Grace from 1966 to 1977 during his physical presence were fortunate enough to become diksa disciples ..... but isn't Srila Prabhupada available to one and all --- for always and in all ways ... forever and ever ... as siksa guru?
I was born after Srila Prabhupada departed from this world but through his books ... his teachings ... his instructions ... I feel myself to be his siksa disciple. Is that not bona fide? So diksa or siksa ..... the main thing is to obey the orders of the spiritual master, to learn and repeat his teachings and message. I hope I'm not mistaken in my thinking and perception in these matters. If I am I would be happy for somebody to inform me and enlighten me.
How is that resolved. "Prabhupada Disciple" is a title reserved only to those who received initiation from Prabhupada. even if the have shiksa from someone else. On the other hand those who strictly take shiksa from Shrila Prabhupada, are not called Prabhupada Disciple. There are so many so called "Prabhupada Disciples" who are in the name only, merely vegetarians (at best) and why should they be called Prabhupada Disciples? Double standard!
borokrsnadasa: When I wrote "now it is resolved" I was being sarcastic. Just because the GBC makes a resolution doesn't mean a thing as far as I'm concerned. Sorry if my tongue in cheek didn't translate on paper. I'm not THAT naive to think their resolution carries any weight nor has any real meaning.
I get it. But they can make a punitive resolution where discrimination on the basis of who one received formal diksa from should not be used against or for that person in his or her's relationships with Srila Prabhupada and any favoritism based on diksa is prohibited. That will help. No more special treatment just because one was initiated during manifested pastimes of His Divine Grace.
