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Philosophy: Does Narayan Maharaja's message differ greatly from that of Srila Prabhupada's?

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    The world goes in swings and roundabouts, when Srila Prabhupada was on the planet he was carrying the Gaudiya Vaisvana flame, no question. Now that hes gone, no one it seems has stepped up to the mark, the high mark. All we have are rubber stamped officials.

    The Spiritual flame of Gaudiya Vaisnavism is not limited to physical institutions, it comes through a living breathing acharya, just as the flame appeared to jump from GM to Iskcon when Srila Prabhupada went to the west, it could also show up again in the GM or the Maths that were born out of the GM, if it wasn't limited to a particular institution before then the same applies now.

    Srila Prabhupada did not condemn the GM and his god brothers for all eternity, he was criticising the way some of them were behaving at the time, and he even asked for forgiveness for saying that. When Srila Prabhupada asked for a number of items to be packaged and sent to America none of his god brothers complied, except one, Narayan Maharaja. He was very close to Narayan Maharaja, the many letters that prove this are available for download for all to see.
  2.  
    sri_govinda_das:After two days Prabhupada said he would not call any of his Godbrothers to come and take care of his disciples. He said, "If this person speaks just one word different from what I am speaking, there will be great confusion among you." Actually, he said, the idea was an insult to the spiritual master....
    Still, right before his passing, SP requested Sridhara Maharaja to become the president of Iskcon. SM declined, perhaps not willing to be burdened with the unruly disciples of SP. For a neophyte devotee the medicine of 'one guru' is recommended. For a mature devotee the medicine of 'guru is one' is recommended.
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    B.R. Sridhar Maharaja was a pure devotee, he was handed the keys to a kingdom (Iskcon Institution) and turned them down, now that's funny I am sure SGD has mentioned on about 50 occasions how all of Srila Prabupada's god brothers simply wanted to be the next acharya and were useless, again we find example after example that proves SGD wrong.
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      CommentAuthorHashama
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2010
     
    It's one thing to express your opinion that Narayana Maharaja's teachings are not in line with what you understand and accept as bona fide and authorized --- but it might not be a good idea to attack his character and motives. When you criticize like that you bring it down to a personal level and that all too often turns a philosophical debate into a mud slinging contest. No good can come of it. It's better to discuss the issue on a higher philosophical level .. wouldn't you agree, sir?
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      CommentAuthorHashama
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010
     
    Well -- from my readings through archives of letters written by Srila Prabhupada to his disciples -- it seems to me that he was not pleased when one of them took it upon themselves to speak or write in an insulting manner about any of his godbrothers -- or anybody from Gaudiya Math. He said, "I can criticize but you cannot." Besides, what is to be gained by saying derogatory things about him personally when it is his interpretation and preaching of Krishna consciousness that you disagree with? I think you are lessening the impact of your message (which I assume is that one should not take up the association nor even hear from nor read the books of Narayana Maharaja) by adding personal attacks. You say that it's alright for you to do because you are engaged in a battle of some sort.

    You began your last post by trying to convince me that Narayana Maharaja is not a qualified preacher and once again --- that is not the issue I am addressing so you can leave out any and all such quotes of that kind in this discussion. My only question to you is why do you feel it necessary to attack his character when Srila Prabhupada, to whom you pledge your allegiance and loyalty, said not to? Just answer that question, please.
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      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010
     
    Hashama, personally I don't agree with attacks on NM. The question 'Does NM's message differ greatly from that of SP's' was answered: -yes-. Now everyone can decide what to do with this conclusion. The issue ends for me here.
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      CommentAuthorHashama
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010 edited
     
    Veda -- I'm new here but I've been reading through several of the threads and topics and have noticed that rarely does a question get answered and the issue ends there. For you perhaps because you seem to be, for the most part, very objective. Your approach is not the norm -- it's the exception. Emotions seem to run high around here, especially when it comes to topics concerning this guru and that guru, this organization or that, this camp or that. Even a question such as "Does NMs message differ greatly from that of SPs" is not all that cut and dry. The word "greatly" has to be taken into consideration and still two people can answer it using quotes galore and still come to diametrically opposed conclusions. As for what someone decides to do with the conclusion --- well that assumes that there is a conclusion and if there existed a consensus that there existed a conclusive conclusion the thread would not be active to where I joined in two hours after the last comment (by sri-govinda-das).

    Yes, sri-govinda-das, I get it. I think you might be approaching the area of overkill on this subject. You don't agree with nor do you like this Narayana Maharaja. I think, however, that at this point if there are some here (or anywhere for that matter) who are not convinced by your arguments that he is not worthy of being accepted as a guru in the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya coming down through Bhaktivinode Thakur, Gauar Kisore Das Babaji, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, and Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada ---- they will never be convinced. Why not just let it go then? It's beginning to appear as if you have some sort of personal vendetta going. Has he personally or any of his disciples or followers done or said anything to hurt you in some way? The reason I ask is that it really does seem as though your dislike and distaste for the Maharaja is very personal and very emotional. This thread is one of several that deal with the topic of Narayana Maharaja and in each one you seem to work yourself into a frenzy. Are you leaving something out or is it just that you feel it is your duty to put up the red flag and warn others not to get involved with him and his organization?
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    Nrsingha d: Nonsense speculation Kula prabhu. Only a rare liberated soul Prema-Bhakta is qualfied in Madhurya-rasa. NM taking sannyasa before SP doesn't mean jack.
    Actually, you can't give what you do not have. Srila Prabhupada gave his disciples primarily dasya rasa. There is no madhurya rasa anywhere in his books. There is mostly dasya, and a little bit of sakhya and vatsalya, but no madhurya. He wrote about it, but the rasa itself is not in his books. That is why most of his disciples attracted to madhurya rasa naturally went to Sridhara Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja. It is a natural flow, it can't be checked, no matter how hard you "Prabhupada-only" people huff and puff...
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    Nrsingha d: How foolish r u Kula?
    There is no limit to my foolishness... Indeed, I am The Fool... (cards anyone?) :)
    • CommentAuthornarot
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010
     
    Another bogus comment. But keep going... All Vaishnava sadhakas are worshipable, provided they became Vaishnava and don't offend others like you do.
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    narot:I do not know if Kylapavana is not is your 'special liberated category'. Maybe for you it is only you and your gurudeva in 'special liberated category' Who is your gurudeva, the person that gave you your name should be in this category, or do you think he is also 'not special'.
    I assure you that I am not liberated, nor do I have qualifications to speak about madhurya rasa in the proper sense of this term. Yet even a fool like myself can appreciate the flow of nectar when I see it. I recognized the greatness of Srila Prabhupada by reading his books for the first time. Later I recognized the greatness of Sridhara Maharaja by reading his books for the first time, and I see the same greatness in the books of Narayana Maharaja. Each greatness is unique and has it's own flavor and purpose. I am happy that I can tap into all these three rivers of nectar... Vanca kalpataru.... they are the desire trees...
    • CommentAuthornarot
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010
     
    That is strange, since books of Narayana Maharaja are written by several people, which H H Sridar swami do you talk about? Is he your 'special liberated category'. Based on your quote Mmd, if you are in 'special category' you do not need to follow the parampara strictly.
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      CommentAuthorHashama
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010
     
    Wow! This website advertises itself as "A question and answer resource for all devotees." It seems like there's more back biting, sniping, and finger pointing going on than anything else. What's up with that? Why all the disharmony? I'm seeing more anger and even borderline hatred here than on some heated political websites.
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    Shri Govinda, she was not one of his first disciples, Tamala Krsna Goswami, Mahanidhi Swami and Deena Bandhu were.
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    An observation: just like Bhakti caru Swami, he would almost word for word quote this Sridhara Swami (because he was trained by him), but never acknowledges the connection publicly. In the similar way Siwarama Swami was trained for a couple of years by Narayana Maharaja, and now is publishing 'extreme rasika' books, but criticizing Gaudia Math. Politics politics politics. The question was asked by Sri_g only because of politics, and for no other good reason.
    • CommentAuthormanasi_seva
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010 edited
     
    VEDA:Hashama, personally I don't agree with attacks on NM. The question 'Does NM's message differ greatly from that of SP's' was answered: -yes-. Now everyone can decide what to do with this conclusion. The issue ends for me here.

    VEDA who and what are you? the chess umpire? You have decided that NM's message differs greatly, was not answered yes by anyone. In your mind you think you have a conclusion well nice for you, I respect that!. By all means play Chess Umpire in your mind but don't seek to be the Chess Umpire for everyone else.

    Differ yes they all differ, go and read BR Sridhar Maharaja's Bhagavadgita his purports are original and quite different from SP.

    All NM is doing is discussing what SP had written about in his Nectar of Devotion, which is a summary of the Gaudia Math's Bhaktirasmrta Sindhuh Volume One. Does NM differ of course he does all Acharya's do, Bhaktivinoda Thakur encourages all Gaudiya Vaisnava's who are qualified to write books on the subject, as each book will be different and will be like the unlimited facets on a transcendental gem, all offering unique purports on the same subject matter.

    Every devotee differs to the degree that they are individual and a have a unique relationship with the Supreme but to ask the question "Does Narayan Maharaja's message differ GREATLY from that of Srila Prabhupada's?" the greatly word is suggesting a complete deviation and is a politically loaded question, not that I personally mind that, but for someone to say the question has been answered is false, for you maybe. For me I see differences, not greatly because that is suggesting he has deviated from the path. Different yes, greatly not at all.

    You say in one breath that you don't agree with personal attacks on NM, yet you have done a lot to fuel the debate against NM that has inspired people like SGD to blaspheme him, your tone is subtle but obvious. I haven't seen any intelligent impartiality coming from you, only one eyed one mindedness.

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      CommentAuthorHashama
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010
     
    sri_govinda_das: If I may share with you some observations:

    I agree with some of the points you make and issues you raise -- not only on this but on other subjects as well. My problem is that you make it very hard for an impartial, objective reader to identify or sympathize with your presentations. I think the reason is that your rhetoric seems to be highly charged with politics and party spirit. You even speak in terms of "this team" and "that team" as if the topic were the World Cup. Also your extensive use of quotes serves more to hide than bring out your points. Why not just speak and write from your heart? If you feel angry at Narayana Maharaja and/or his followers then just say so without trying so hard to convince the rest of us the importance of sharing your anger and dissatisfaction.

    One other point I'd like to make is that your examples concerning the outcomes of various temple building ventures sound more like a symposium on real estate in the religious nonprofit sector than rationalizations proving or disproving the spiritual purity and potency of one party or the other. I forget who -- but someone else here pointed out to you that if you use such facts and figures as a measuring stick for success then the Mormons and the Catholic Church (et al) would have to be considered among the greatest spiritual movements of all time.
    • CommentAuthorTattva das
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010
     
    Sri Govinda Prabhu pronounced Sripad Narayana Maharaja unqualified, on the premise that if you call someone your guru, but you change his instructions, you cannot yourself be a bona-fide guru, and certainly not his successor.

    So, should we begin to examine the many instructions of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur which Srila Prabhupada contradicted, rejected or otherwise changed? Sri Govinda Prabhu's rationale for disqualifying Sripad Narayana Maharaja ALSO disqualifies Srila Prabhupada.

    I am beginning to suspect that Sri Govinda Prabhu is secretly a follower of Sripad Narayana Maharaja, sent to this forum with a mission of smashing the credibility of ISKCON.
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      CommentAuthorHashama
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010 edited
     
    "I am beginning to suspect that Sri Govinda Prabhu is secretly a follower of Sripad Narayana Maharaja, sent to this forum with a mission of smashing the credibility of ISKCON."

    This (above quote) is beginning to take on the mood of MAD Magazine's Spy vs. Spy vs. Spy. Very entertaining.

    Nrsingha d: Thanks for the explanation; however, it wasn't so much the actual content (positive, negative, balanced ...) that I found disconcerting -- but the mood in which some (or most) of the arguments and debates are unfolding. On the one hand the subject matter is very lofty and esoteric. In some instances I'm reminded of Talmudic scholars poring over the ancient texts and engaging in endless hairsplitting debates over a single letter or word. At other times I can't help but notice the contrast between the subject matter being discussed and the level on which it is being discussed. I detect Christian style evangelical fire and brimstone proselytizing, as well as the superimposing onto and the interjecting into of immature tantrum throwing in conjunction with what Krishna describes in the Gita as "the king of knowledge, the secret of all secrets and purest knowledge."
    • CommentAuthorTattva das
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010
     
    sri_govinda_das:i suggest him unqualified because he is not faithful to our guru-paramapara,as a consequence of introducing foreign elements in to our shared culture of Krishna conciousness,namely plagerizing caste brahmana and sahaja-ism moods and realisations
    So, what you are saying is that if a Gaudiya Math guru were to abandon the deity worship system given by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, and instead replaced major elements of it with the moods and rituals of caste goswami temples, this would prove the guru's lack of faithfulness? Am I correct, Sri Govinda Prabhu?
    • CommentAuthorTattva das
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010
     
    sri_govinda_das:We in ISKCON do not accept this sad pagerisation of Caste brahmana and sahaja-ism realisation as acceptable ....sorry!
    Just see, Sri Govinda Prabhu! You admit you are an offender to Srila Prabhupada! Srila Prabhupada chose to bring into ISKCON deity worship many of the caste goswami practices, instead of what his own guru had taught him. Now you are saying that such "sad pagerisation of Caste brahmana" is not acceptable -- so you are admitting that Srila Prabhupada is not acceptable to you! I suggest that you consult with your ISKCON authority before posting any more blasphemous attacks against Srila Prabhupada! Don't take my word for this -- look at the Arcana-paddhati of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, and see how it differs from what Srila Prabhupada instituted! Maybe you can find some senior ISKCON pujari who can explain this to you, so you do not keep going on with such blasphemy of Srila Prabhupada. If you do not accept changing our line by introducing "Caste goswami" elements, then you are saying you reject Srila Prabhupada!
    • CommentAuthormanasi_seva
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010 edited
     
    Nrsingha d, you are creating straw man arguments.

    >>See, I would say that that might be the subtle danger of neo GM. A slight mininilisation of the actual Acaryas. A great minimilisaton even. Am I wrong?

    Yes you are wrong totally wrong, because no one has minimsed anyone, that's your straw man argument. I have never said NM is greater or lesser than any previous Acharya that is not for me or for YOU to judge.

    >>It is offense to consider Acarya ordinary man.

    I have never never referred to any acharya as an ordinary man? where do you get this from? The only reason I have tuned into this debate is to ask people to recognise what Srila Prabupada said, "I can criticise my god bothers but you cannot" I am only defending NM on the grounds that he is a great Vaisnava and he is helping many other devotees who would have otherwise left Iskcon to continue their faith in Radha, Krishna and Srila Prabhupada, and I have been asking people to stop blaspheming him for the sake of their own spiritual lives.

    You must be smoking banana leaves Nrsingha d, because what I am saying and what you are talking about are two completely different things.
    • CommentAuthormanasi_seva
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2010 edited
     
    Where did I say he was equal?, exactly where?, post my quote...
  24.  
    Nrsingha d,

    You really are smoking banana leaves, I talk about apples and you come in and give a dissertation on oranges.

    I asked you in my last post something very simple (Where did I say he was equal?, exactly where?, post my quote... )

    I have never made any statements about what level anyone is on, I have only one interest in this debate and that is for people to mature up and treat other Gaudiya Vaisnavas with respect and if you don't like their books or what they say, then give respect from a distance and some how from that you somehow deduce that I am minimising someone?

    If you want to criticise or disagree with something I have said that is fine by me, but give people the respect of actually copying what they said and pasting it into your post and make at least a half baked attempt at a real discussion, don't dream some garbage up by trying to read something into or between the lines.

    So next time read the posts don't dream up arguments about what was never stated. I don't have time for idiots and morons. If you can't read properly go back to English classes.
    • CommentAuthormanasi_seva
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2010 edited
     
    The question in this thread if you haven't noticed is "Does Narayan Maharaja's message differ greatly from that of Srila Prabhupada's?"

    If you read my entire post you would see what I am saying because I repeat it several times, and it was a response to someone else claiming that the question had been answered conclusively which I stated was false, in my opinion they differ but not greatly. So they is NM and Srila Prabhupada and what is it they differ on its the message (we are not comparing them on elevation or who is a greater personality only on message), again read the post!

    Yes they differ on message because they are unique individuals but the differences are small there is no major deviation by NM on message, he is only discussing what Srila Prabupada wrote about. So the message of NM is that you should constantly think about Radha and Krishna and that is the same message as Srila Prabhupada.

    Now I can see I will need to explain this to you, I am talking about the message from NM vs the message from Srila Prabhupada.

    In no way am I comparing NM to Srila Prabhupada as far as who is more elevated than who, that wasn't even in my thinking! So you have completely misread my post. We are talking about the message not about elevation, or who is more exalted, you need to tune in.

    If this needs explaining then you need help, this little conversation is over.
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