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Philosophy: Does Narayan Maharaja's message differ greatly from that of Srila Prabhupada's?

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  1.  
    Narayana Maharaja took sannyasa 4 years before Srila Prabhupada did. He is 87 years old now and has been a sannyasi for 57 years. None of his disciples became sahajiyas. These are FACTS.
    If anybody is qualified to explain madhurya rasa, it is Narayana Maharaja. He has every right to do what he does.
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeFeb 18th 2010 edited
     
    Kula pavana P., what you state has nothing to do with the topic. NM's approach differs from Srila Prabhupada's regardless of his glory.

    One devotee who is in touch with Paramadvaiti M.'s group and B.G. Narasingha M.'s group told me that there's a wide disagreement with NM among various GMs as well. I also read about this earlier.
  3.  
    VEDA:Kula pavana P., what you state has nothing to do with the topic.
    I was primarily addressing the following question: "does it directly or indirectly foster a tendency towards cheap sentimentality and mundane lust in the name of devotion (sahajiya-ism)..." A guru has a right to present Krsna's message in a way he sees fit for his disciples, and it may not be exactly the same way as another guru.
    • CommentAuthornarot
    • CommentTimeFeb 18th 2010
     
    In Re-Visioning ISKCON: Constructive Theologizing for Reform and Renewal, by Thomas Herzig (Tamal Krishna Goswami) and Kenneth Valpey (Krishna Kshetra Das) edited by Ravindra Svarupa Das (Dr. William H. Deadwyler) the suggestions of finding common ground with mayavadis for example show a dramatic shift from Ideology of Shrila Prabhupada. This is the biggest shift from ideas of Shrila Prabhupada I have seen. In contrast with this Swami Bhakivedanta Narayana is rather a plain fundamentalist and an orthodox follower of one of the branches of Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta.
    • CommentAuthormanasi_seva
    • CommentTimeFeb 18th 2010 edited
     
    1) His message does not differ at all, he is doing nothing that is not found and recommended within Srila Prabhupada's books.

    2) SGD is trying to portray NM as a Sahajiya, firstly lets define what a Sahajiya is by a letter from Srila Prabhupada

    “The transcendental symptoms of ecstasy certainly are auspicious, but they are not for advertising to others. One should not advertise directly or indirectly that one is feeling like this. They should be checked. Otherwise one will gradually become sahajiya or one who takes spiritual advancement as something materially manifest.”
    (Letter to Makhanlal from Los Angeles on June 3, 1970)

    NM to my knowledge has never displayed external symptoms or engages in cheap displays of any kind, he is in the same disciplic line as Srila Prabhupada who had great respect for NM so why should NM be doing or saying anything different to Srila Prabhupada.

    3) Yes he openly states that he is an Acharya Successor in the real Iskcon line, but how does Srila Prabupada define the real Iskcon?
    Taken from the preface of Bhagavad Gita As It Is, Page 10: http://bbtedit.bbt.info/files/72_Gita_showing_revisions_00_preface_and_intro.pdf

    "Some of them said that it is greatly fortunate for the Americans that I have started this Krishna Conscious movement in America. But actually the original father of this movement is Lord Krishna himself"

    NM is not making a claim on the assets of the Incorporated Institution he is rightfully claiming his position in the Krishna Consciousness movement that started with Lord Krishna. NM was instructed by his own Guru (Bhakti Prajana Kesava Maharaja) who also gave Sannyas to Srila Prabhupada to help and serve Srila Prabhupada and NM considers Srila Prabhupada to be his shiksha Guru.

    4) SGD uses a personal example of where he met non-initiated followers of NM (Bhakta Smo's) that were openly preaching ranganuga bhakti on the streets.
    I have memories of many Bhaktas when I joined Iskcon and some were preaching at the Sunday feasts and were often rebuked by other initiated devotees for preaching nonsense because they still did not understand the philosophy. However foolish a bhakta or even a disciple acts that cannot be used as a disqualifier of the Guru, thats like trying to pin the activities of some foolish Iskcon disciples on Srila Prabhupada, who would dare to do this?

    5) Iskconites that protest NM usually bring up the issue that he is freely distributing Rananuga Bhakti and Gopi Lila on the streets of the world, yet I cannot find one example where he has said anything about this and infact it is a false assumption that is usually based on the action of a few foolish bhakta's that have mis-understood NM, just like some of Srila Prabhupada's disciples mis-understood and started a Gopi Bhava club back in the 70's

    What does NM say about the topic and the qualification:
    [Nowadays, especially in European countries and in Russia, devotees think they are very 'rasika'. *[See Endnote 2]. They want rasa (the taste of spiritual mellows). They want to go up to the top of the tree of prema at once. They only want madanakhya-bhava (the highest ecstatic devotional love, situated only in Srimati Radhika). They do not want to follow vaidhi-bhakti. They don't like vaidhi-bhakti.

    This idea is very dangerous, so be very careful about this. Those who have these ideas are nonsense sahajiya-vaisnavas.

    Srila Rupa Gosvami is Sri Rupa Manjari (his form as a gopi), but outwardly he was following all the limbs of vaidhi-bhakti. If, by the mercy of one's qualified Guru, one has actual greed in his heart - if he is internally serving Krsna on the path of raganuga in his siddha-deha (his original, self-realized position) - he must be at the stage of rati. Real greed will manifest at that stage.*[See endnote 5] Before this, a person has no real greed. In the name of greed, males will be attracted to ladies and the ladies will be attracted to men. This is very dangerous, for they will go to hell. They will not go to the transcendental world to be manjaris." ]

    Nowhere is he advertising that we should be distributing Gopi lila on the streets, in-fact quite the opposite he is also saying like Srila Prabupada, first you become qualified then you can look at these subjects.

    Here is another quote from Srila Prabhupada for SGD as he is always fond of saying how many temples and followers Iskcon has vs the others:

    “You cannot judge a movement simply by the number of its followers. If one man is genuine, then the movement is successful. It is not a question of quantity, but quality.”
    (Srila Prabhupada, Science of Self Realization, Ch. 2, "Choosing a Spiritual Master-Saints & Swindlers")
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeFeb 18th 2010
     
    > suggestions of finding common ground with mayavadis

    There's no mayavada in SB 1.2.11. Advaya tattva jnana refers to the qualitative sameness, abheda. But that's not the end of story since there're also bheda vakyas based on rasa, like Taittiriya Up. 2.7.

    > Swami Bhakivedanta Narayana is rather a plain fundamentalist and an orthodox follower of one of the branches of Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta.

    His orthodoxy seems to be contested by the above mentioned disagreement of other GM groups.
  7.  
    Surprise surprise the GM is in disagreement...Iskcon has disagreements about most subjects and whats news about that, they just settle it through their GBC votes.

    Do you have specific quotes VEDA? or just heard something on the grape vine, you know like a throw a little mud it may just stick? I mean you either know something or you don't. Why just offer up innuendos?
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeFeb 18th 2010
     
    Read me carefully: GM groups are in disagreement _with NM_ (his approach). The devotee who mentioned this is trustworthy enough for me. He's neutral regarding NM.
    • CommentAuthormanasi_seva
    • CommentTimeFeb 18th 2010 edited
     
    So some agree and some disagree...was that not the same way they felt about Srila Prabhupada? It is still not very specific as to exactly what they are in disagreement about? Approach to what exactly? His general approach? Vaisnavas are usually a tad more specific than that. Either he is doing something wrong by way of reference to shastra or he isn't. The acid test is, Guru (NM) what the previous Sadhus have said and Shastra.

    As you are fond of telling people to get on topic, the topic is about if NM's message differs to Srila Prabhupada's, we already know many many people disagree with his approach.
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
     
    I understand that the main issue is his public preaching of raganuga topics. This wasn't done by B.P. Kesava M., Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, etc.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
     
    I have also heard that at some point in time Srila Sridhara Maharaja expressed some concern and criticism in regard to Narayana Maharaja's preaching style. There were some other disagreements and one issue in particular that had to do with performing Rathayatra on the streets of Nabadwipa became a point of heated contention between the two camps. To this day the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math and Narayana Maharaja are not on friendly terms.
    • CommentAuthormanasi_seva
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010 edited
     
    VEDA, by public I take it that you mean in a temple with his disciples listening, asking questions, and maybe a few inquisitive Iskcon devotees listening in. Of course NM discusses Raganuga Bhakti, of which he is constantly taking questions on. Srila Prabupada also discussed Raganuga Bhakti and published it in his books which have been distributed across the planet, the most precious gem of the three worlds, sitting right there on countless public shelves, which is the mood of Gauranga Mahaprabhu. The Brahmin's locked this up for thousands of years and very few knew about it, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu came along and broke the locks and Srila Prabhupada distributed it all across the planet.

    >>I understand that the main issue is his public preaching of raganuga topics. This wasn't done by B.P. Kesava M., Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, etc.

    Bhaktisiddanta's father (Bhaktivinoda Thakur) was one of the biggest exponents of Raganuga Bhakti, and you have to remember the times they lived in, it was Bhaktisiddanta's father that lifted the teachings of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu out of the mud of Sahajiyism, to this very day Sahajiyas travel around Bengal village to village, doing bhajan, falling down on the ground and displaying cheap displays of ecstatic symptoms, and in some cases asking for villagers wives to join them in Rasa lila. This has led to the greatest hatred of the Vaisnavas and there are still many villages to this day that hate Vaisnavas and will never let them enter their village, any Vaisnava, Sahajiya or not they are simply not welcome. This is what Bhaktisiddanta wanted to separate himself from.

    Times have changed and the modern era is upon us along with the Internet, people including devotees want to know everything right now, today. NM is gently discussing the topics while giving plenty of warning at the same time. You need to be qualified, and he is stating it in triplicate, if you are not qualified you will achieve the opposite and take yourself to hell. His main discussions are on the Bhakti Rasamrta Sindu the full version of Prabhupada's summary (Nectar of Devotion) which is the lead up to the practice and how one becomes qualified and the various states one goes through before reaching the end goal. He does not openly discuss the techniques or the deepest content. Sure he gives enough to make you want more, to make you want to qualify!

    Portnoy, regarding the Rathayatra issue, yes well these things happen and when you have Maths right next door to each other someone at sometime will do something that will crap the other guys off. Like both Maths arranging a Rathayatra at the same time. Don't forget after the demise of Bhaktisiddanta although they all present as Gaudia Math, many are distincly different groups and have their own Acharyas.

    The Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math has a very distinctly humble mood and I am a big fan of Sri Govinda Maharaja and of BR Sridhar Maharaja I see them all as exalted devotees and eternal associates of Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja, if we are lucky we could only dream of serving these great souls.

    NM frankly is what Iskcon needs, he is the wake up call, the adrenelin shot, not in the arm, but right through the chest cavity into the heart. Someone needs to tell these idiots where they are at. They wont listen to anyone and their first reaction as always is to discredit, set the mis-information channels into operation, create the straw man arguments. However with so many Iskcon devotees doing the simple comparison of NM vs the rubber stamps the exodus is starting to take place and the GBC are now wanting a reconciliation with NM and trying to put relations back on a respectful level.
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010 edited
     
    By public I mean in front of a general audience - both disciples and others. Otoh, raganuga topics are to be discussed with a select few intimate disciples. Mahaprabhu had 'three and half' (CC 3.2.105). For others - kirtan, tattva topics and prasadam. Same with Prabhupada.
  14.  
    CC 3.2.105 only states who were Chaitanya's intimate disciples it makes no reference to what can and cannot be discussed. So thats an irrelevant quote.

    Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 4.15-16
    prema-rasa-niryasa karite asvadana, raga-marga bhakti loke karite pracarana, rasika-sekhara krishna parama-karuna, ei dui hetu haite icchara udgama

    Translation:
    The Lord's desire to appear was born from two reasons: the Lord wanted to taste the sweet essence of the mellows of love of God, and He wanted to propagate devotional service in the world on the platform of spontaneous attraction. Thus He is known as supremely jubilant and as the most merciful of all.

    Srila Prabhupada's Purport:
    During the period of Lord Krishna's appearance, the killing of asuras or nonbelievers such as Kamsa and Jarasandha was done by Vishnu, who was within the person of Sri Krishna. Such apparent killing by Lord Sri Krishna took place as a matter of course and was an incidental activity for Him. But the real purpose of Lord Krishna's appearance was to stage a dramatic performance of His transcendental pastimes at Vrajabhumi, thus exhibiting the highest limit of transcendental mellow in the exchanges of reciprocal love between the living entity and the Supreme Lord. These reciprocal exchanges of mellows are called raga-bhakti, or devotional service to the Lord in transcendental rapture. Lord Sri Krishna wants to make known to all the conditioned souls that He is more attracted by raga-bhakti than vidhi-bhakti, or devotional service under scheduled regulations. It is said in the Vedas (Taittiriya Up. 2.7), raso vai sah: the Absolute Truth is the reservoir for all kinds of reciprocal exchanges of loving sentiments. He is also causelessly merciful, and He wants to bestow upon us this privilege of raga-bhakti. Thus He appeared by His own internal energy. He was not forced to appear by any extraneous force.

    "Lord Sri Krishna wants to make known to all the conditioned souls that He is more attracted by raga-bhakti than vidhi-bhakti, or devotional service under scheduled regulations."

    I actually have no argument that the finer details of Raganuha Bhakti should be reserved for confidential discussion, but there is much that can be discussed that is broad and general.

    Let me make it simpler for you VEDA, when the Gaudia Math published Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhuh, they did so in two volumes. Volume one is for all Sadaks (devotees) and is for general discussion and distribution and is available in their bookshops for all to purchase, read and ask questions about. Volume two is not for public discussion and was even held off from publication because of the nature of its contents and has never been released for public consumption.

    NM never discusses the contents of Volume two, He only discusses what has been published for general distribution in Volume one.

    Devotees who say Raganuga Bhakti should never be discussed in an open audience are showing they know very little on the subject or have never read Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhuh Volume one.
    Thankful People: Kula-pavana
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
     
    > CC 3.2.105 only states who were Chaitanya's intimate disciples it makes no reference to what can and cannot be discussed. So thats an irrelevant quote.

    Not really.

    Due to the immature understanding of such rascals, common men should not discuss Krsna’s pastimes with the gopis. A nondevotee should not even discuss His stealing sweet rice for His devotees. It is warned that one should not even think about these things. Although Krsna is the purest of the pure, mundane people, thinking of Krsna’s pastimes that appear immoral, themselves become polluted. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu therefore never publicly discussed Krsna’s dealings with the gopis. He used to discuss these dealings only with three confidential friends. He never discussed rasa-lila publicly, as the professional reciters do, although they do not understand Krsna or the nature of the audience. However, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu encouraged the public chanting of the holy name on a huge scale for as many hours as possible. (CC 2.4.133 p.)

    If you're attracted to NM, it's your thing. But the fact remains: his approach differs from SP, his own guru and param guru.

    Attached is the GBC position for those who don't know it.
  16.  
    >But the fact remains: his approach differs from SP, his own guru and param guru.

    So what's wrong in being different. He is a different personality. Why should he try to be a carbon copy, a clone of Srila Prabhupada? Why should a lotus start imitating and try to become a rose? He is a different Acarya. There is no need to compare him to Srila Prabhupada and argue who is superior and who is inferior? If some Acarya has different approach then Srila Prabhupada, does it mean that he is a sahajiya or some sort of criminal? Or now in future for the rest of eternity each single acarya has to be a carbon copy of Srila Prabhupada and if someone is different he is sahajiya.
  17.  
    dweller-in-peace:>But the fact remains: his approach differs from SP, his own guru and param guru. So what's wrong in being different. He is a different personality. Why should he try to be a carbon copy, a clone of Srila Prabhupada? Why should a lotus start imitating and try to become a rose? He is a different Acarya.
    Srila Prabhupada was quite a bit different in many ways than his own guru. And Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was very, very, different than his guru or even his own father, BVT. If it was OK for them to be different, why is it not OK for NM to be different?
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010 edited
     
    > Srila Prabhupada was quite a bit different in many ways than his own guru.

    Their mood was in sync.

    The difference simply means that NM can't be a successor of Srila Prabhupada. That's all.
  19.  
    VEDA:> Srila Prabhupada was quite a bit different in many ways than his own guru. Their mood was in sync. The difference simply means that NM can't be a successor of Srila Prabhupada. That's all.
    That would also mean that BSST can't be a successor to GKDB.
    • CommentAuthornarot
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
     
    Whatever. Does not seem to be that great, everything is in Prabhupada's books, but maybe NM gives a bit too much of one thing over the other. He is certainly at odds with Trip Swami and others who say that Prabhupada was mainly in sakya rasa. So what is a worse deviation?
    • CommentAuthormanasi_seva
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010 edited
     
    VEDA wake up and read the posts, we just said he doesn't discuss those topics referred to in (CC 2.4.133 p.) he only discusses Volume one of Rasamrta Sindhuh which is NOT the Krishna's pastimes with the gopis. Your repeated lack of understanding on this topic is showing.

    >>Their mood was in sync

    NM is only discussing what Srila Prabhupada had written about in his Nectar of Devotion and C.C. Volumes and what was openly published, distributed to the public and discussed even by Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja (check the date on the Bhakti Rasamrta Sinduh's Volume one available at Yoga Pith, these were published while Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja was alive) These topics are non-confidential.

    That does not constitute a mood change. Individual? yes he is, Outspoken? absolutely as most acharya's are. But mood change is another attempt by die hard Iskconites to thwart free thinking devotees that refuse a GBC performed lobotomy.

    >>The difference simply means that NM can't be a successor of Srila Prabhupada. That's all.
    What is this garbage? You think you are the one that now rubber stamps successors? LMHO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    It doesn't work like that VEDA he is a successor and he is in the disciplic line, whether one person knows it or all people know it.

    And VEDA STOP passing around text files that 1) Are 14 years old and completely outdated 2) Are simple text files than can be modified by anyone. If you want to live up to your tag name "VEDA" then pass authorized links that are published on authorized GBC websites. Stop being a complete irresponsible nonsense. You need to keep up with current events...14 year old text files and he claims its the current thinking on NM by the GBC ...ROFL!

    A small contingent of the GBC met with NM on the 25th Oct 2009 here is an excerpt of what happened:

    "Narayana Maharaja made several proposals how to improve the relationship between ISKCON and himself and his followers. The ISKCON delegation said it would convey those suggestions to the full GBC Body. Narayana Maharaja and the ISKCON leaders expressed their shared desire that the two Vaishnava organizations would like to see cordial relations between them based on mutual respect and understanding."

    Taken from the authorised News Iskcon website, check it out for yourself.

    http://news.iskcon.com/node/2354
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
     
    Manasi Seva --- true what you say about the two Maths having some disagreement and in my life experience whenever there are two sides to some issue the truth is usually somewhere in the middle -- or at least in between. Besides -- it's not for me to judge and you are right -- exalted souls such as Sridhara Maharaja, Srila Govinda Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja --- they are so beyond me it ain't even funny. Personally I am very satisfied sticking closely to Srila Prabhupada's teachings. My main reason for not reading or studying anything else has nothing to do with agreement or disagreement about the level of bhakti or whatever. For me it's just about loyalty. Srila Prabhupada poured every ounce of his energy (spilled gallons of blood) .. stayed up night after night ... translating, writing, dictating ... and unless and until I have read everything that he has written I just don't feel good about what I consider for myself extracurricular activities. Again -- this is my way and I don't try to push it on anybody else or lay a guilt trip on my godbrothers who are flourishing under the siksa guidance of either NM or Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math.

    One other observation on this topic ---- one of Srila Prabhupada's first endeavors was to publish KRSNA Book -- a summary study of the Tenth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam. On the one hand he was telling us that one is forbidden to jump to the Tenth Canto without first reading and comprehending the previous nine cantos --- and he gave the analogy of beginning at the lotus feet of the Lord. Then he decides to present for the world the transcendental pastimes of the Lord in KRSNA Book -- but in such a way that it's impossible to read it and think that they are ordinary pastimes. That was very revolutionary on the part of Srila Prabhupada as was his taking on female disciples and creating a brahmacarini ashram --- turning us mlecchas into brahmanas, etc. etc. In fact -- there is some Vedic injunction that a sannyasi should never cross an ocean of water. Imagine if Srila Prabhupada took that to heart.

    Hey -- it's all so fascinating and mind boggling. We argue and quarrel because we have to -- we are card carrying members of the kali yuga -- a time when humans are short-lived, lazy, misguided, quarrelsome, unlucky and above all, always disturbed. At the same time everyone here is very special having come in contact with Raja Vidya -- the secret of all secrets -- the ABSOLUTE TRUTH. It's almost like that scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark --- when the ark was opened by those who were impure -- the power, purity and potency of the energy that emanated from it melted the bodies of those in attendance. I feel like that sometimes. I'M MELTING .... HEEEEELLLLLLPPPP
    • CommentAuthormanasi_seva
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010 edited
     
    LMHO....I like you Portnoy you are so much fun, and I perfectly agree you with about Srila Prabhupada, he will always be my #1 Shiksha Guru in him I have absolute faith and by seeing what he achieved gives one faith in the entire disciplic succession.

    I just don't like to see Great Vaisnavas that are contributing so much and giving over of their time and energy to help others on the path get blasphemed and slighted by inaccurate innuendos.

    ======================

    Yes wasn't that seen when the Nazis opened the ark...Wax figurines in front of heat jets...you only melted when you look right?...I will be careful not to look...only to listen.. I am that little monkey with his hands over his eyes "see no evil"

    (O_O)...(X_X)
    •  
      CommentAuthorrasa108
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010 edited
     
    >Portnoy: My main reason for not reading or studying anything else has nothing to do with agreement or disagreement about the level of bhakti or whatever. For me it's just >about loyalty. Srila Prabhupada poured every ounce of his energy (spilled gallons of blood) .. stayed up night after night ... translating, writing, dictating

    This is the mood of those who are loyal to Srila Prabhupada's movement....it's not about judgement of others, it's about repaying the debt we owe to Srila Prabhupada who was the only one who successfully brought Krsna Consciousness to the West - without which we would have nothing.

    In the end Srila Narayana Maharaja will do his activities and ISKCON theirs....we should offer our respects and let it rest, carefully avoiding offences to devotees (including all the great souls on this forum).
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
     
    I agree rasa108. Even if a disciple is convinced that when Srila Prabhupada instructed "I want none of my disciples to have any intimate association with my godbrothers (Gaudiya Math)" it was meant for all of us and for all time under any and all circumstances -- no exceptions -- no rationalizations .... then fine -- keep a (safe) distance but that doesn't mean lash out at any or all of them on a public forum, criticizing and condemning them -- but rather from that distance be respectful and represent Srila Prabhupada with maturity, dignity and class.

    A disciple's goal in life is to please, satisfy, glorify and serve his guru -- to make his guru smile. If we think like that ("what would Srila Prabhupada think of what I said or did or wrote -- would he be pleased ....) then we can't go wrong. That's not true -- we can go wrong but if our intention is sincere then even if we make a mistake and do, say, write something that displeases our guru -- it can be forgiven.

    One time during a darshan one of the godbrothers refused to come join the others because he felt very fallen having slipped and smoked a cigarette that morning. He was standing outside the room by the door but refused to come in. Srila Prabhupada was told about it and he said, "whatever you have done, I forgive you -- now come sit down and join us."
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2010
     
    > That would also mean that BSST can't be a successor to GKDB.

    Imho, the section 'The Blessings of Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji' in the GKDB's biography 'An Era Not To Be Forgotten' throws light on this apparent contradiction.

    It's also nicely described here: http://www.scsmath.com/docs/gaurakisor_babaji.html
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2010 edited
     
    manasi_seva,

    what I repeat is the conclusion of other GM groups about NM. Again: they disagree with him.

    Srila Prabhupada lectured from BRS much less (as per Vedabase: 47 lectures between October 1972-January 1973, 1 in June 1970) in comparison with BG and SB since tattva comes before rasa.

    I don't 'thwart free thinking devotees'. Let them think as freely as they want. (SP used to say it another way though.)

    The mood difference is real. NM is acarya in his own mission. Let his mission and ISKCON be good neighbors with 'cordial relations'. No more succession claims? No more preaching to ISKCON congregations? No more selling NM books in front of Krsna Balaram Mandir? If yes, then it's great news. I'm in favor of ISKCON's cooperation with GM groups on good neighbor terms, without unwelcome intrusions from any side. Plain civility.

    You don't have to read the file but it's informative and quotes from NM's own Prabandhavali.
    There was another, updated document in 1997 'Following in Srila Prabhupada's footsteps'.

    Btw, why are you concerned about 'authorized GBC websites' if you don't follow GBC? Or did you change your mind recently?
  28.  
    There is always infighting between different maths. ISKCON should be different from that, we should not take part in these politics. It is nice to hear that Veda thinks this way, now we just have to stop quoting from the politicized statements of those who are happy to take apart ISKCON and keep trying for unity in diversity. So okay, we do not listen to people from Gaudiya math, but we know they are representing the same thing in a different way (and yes they refer less to Gita for example, all of them).
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2010
     
    > There is always infighting between different maths.

    And therefore their common disagreement with NM is even more significant.
  30.  
    Common to whom? There have been always infighting between the followers of BR Shridhara and those of BP Keshava Svami. That will go on.
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2010
     
    They agree on disagreement with NM. Still not clear? Can't put it simplier.
    • CommentAuthormanasi_seva
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2010 edited
     
    VEDA again you take hear says and try and present them as conclusions your choice of words is interesting as you change your position from "Oh I heard it from a devotee" to the previous post which is now conclusive without supplying not one quote or reference. So leave out what the GM says without providing some written evidence, you are trying to present yourself as an authority on NM and what the GM think about him, yet clearly you don't associate with any of them. To start with the GM that Bhaktisiddanta left behind, fractured and is mostly independent and different Maths and they are in disagreement about many things, that is not news. But lets have quotes can we? not I heard it on the grapevine because that is certainly not conclusive.

    Gaudiya Vaisnava Acharya's are like the different facets on a diamond, each facet has its own unique perspective but they are all a part of the same diamond, B.R. Sridhars Math had a very different mood to Iskcon, they were very studious, simple, humble. It was very different experience spending time in their Navadvip Math to spending time at Iskcon Mayapur, I should know I have spent time in both. Yet they are completely focused on their devotion to Gaura Gadadhar, Nitai, Radha & Krishna, does this mean BR Sridhar was not a successor in the disciplic line?

    NM is a successor in the same disciplic line and because he lives after Srila Prabhupada he therefore comes after Srila Prabhupada.

    One thing everyone has to realise is that a lot of ex-Iskcon devotees have gone over to NM that were very dissatisfied with Iskcon, some of those devotees have done and still do stupid things (they have their own issues to work through) when in the vicinity of Iskcon temples, like selling NM's books in front of them. This was not an instruction from NM, it was the foolish act of a foolish ex Iskcon devotee/s. So citing incidents like this is similar to saying Prabhupada and his disciples collected guns, because Hansadutta was busted by the police and they found them in his own car, but the truth is Srila Prabhupada could not control the independent whim of a nonsense disciple which is the same for NM.

    That file you supplied is a fourteen year old email and its a text based file so no one can be sure of its authenticity (anyone can change it). People, especially Vaisnavas are dynamic not static eg: the relationships change over time, you cannot present a position that is 14 years old, when the current thinking is to reconcile and get the relationship on a level of mutual respect.

    My only concern about GBC authorised websites is when someone like you distributes a file directly and not by reference to a file on a GBC website, that is 14 years old and you claim it to be the current thinking of GBC on NM, when clearly it is not. There are more up to date topics about NM on the GBC Authorised websites which states a different position to the stuff you are passing around.
    • CommentAuthornarot
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2010
     
    Are you answering yourself? You must be very qualified...:( or misinformed...
  34.  
    sri_govinda_das:Please accept my humble obeisances Narayanna maharaja and his enthusiastic followers! ....My friendly devotional opponents kula-pavanna and manasi seva...please help us understand to appreciate his mood.....since he is also meant to be our loving siksa guru!
    He does not have to be your siksa guru. That is the beauty of it. Just 'forgive' him what you consider to be his 'transgressions'. I 'forgave' Prabhupada for using dirty money to build temples in Mayapur and Vrindavana even as I still think it was a wrong thing to do. We can be both critical and respectful at the same time.
  35.  
    Yes SGD, Kula-pavana is right, if you are happy with Iskcon that is fine, no argument, we are not trying to convince you to believe or submit to anything, just ease up on the blaspheming of other vaisnava's that you have never met. Even materialistic people know that no matter what anyone tells you about anyone, wait until you meet them and then make up your own mind, that is not even wisdom its just common sense. Most of what you know about NM SGD is cut and pasted from a website, and usually some website that has issue with anyone thats no Pro Iskcon, meet him yourself then determine your feelings.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2010 edited
     
    Well of course sri-govinda-das knows the heart of Narayana Maharaja. He's the chief and the guru of a maori tribe. He's on the winning team. He's a superior front line dyed in the New Zealand sheep wool ISKCON sankirtana devotee. He is qualified to explain to all of us the inner hidden motives of Narayana Maharaja. He's way more advanced and realized than Narayana Maharaja which gives him carte blanche to analyze him from head to toe.

    And let's not forget what sgd writes above "...that ISKCON gurus forbid their disciples from hear from him! Therefore the disciples should reject the ISKCON gurus."

    If you read the above quote from our crazy pal sgd -- not once but several times -- I guarantee that you will feel a burning desire to swig a pint of Jack Daniels and chase it with a quart of mescal. After doing that it just might make some sense.

    Well folks ... that's entertainment. Good night and may God bless.
    • CommentAuthornarot
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2010
     
    If shrigovinda says one is not qualified, he must be qualified, if shrigovinda says someone is qualified, take it otherwise: we can not trust him, because shrigovinda inapparently is a lier as well.
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2010 edited
     
    It's not a hearsay but a statement from a specific devotee on Feb 3 this year.
    If you mean official positions I'm not aware of any. Such things are usually not out unless necessary. Just as when SP mentioned no names in public lectures.

    If you want quotes and debates about differences then read this: http://www.oldchakra.com/mainpages/people/narayanmhrj/index.htm
    There's a link to quotes compilation 'Understanding NM' by Urmila dd.

    > NM is a successor in the same disciplic line and because he lives after Srila Prabhupada he therefore comes after Srila Prabhupada.

    Did you forget that we speak specifically about 'successor' as 'acarya of ISKCON'?

    > yet clearly you don't associate with any of them.

    Are you watching over me?

    > This was not an instruction from NM, it was the foolish act of a foolish ex Iskcon devotee/s.

    Possible but so far inconclusive. If you have any quotes that NM distances himself from these activities, post them.
    What about preaching to ISKCON's congregations? Is NM not aware of to whom he's preaching? It doesn't seem so.
    Does he do radio, TV and university programs which SP was so fond of? I searched for "narayana maharaja" & university on google an youtube and found only one uni lecture at purebhakti site which is aimed at mainly ISKCON audience (due to starting with "You should know my relationship with your Prabhupada"). He says:

    "Now there are no gosalas (cowsheds) because there are no longer any cows, and almost all the preaching centers are going to be closed because there are no students or devotees. ..." (He's been misinformed.)

    "Srila Swami Maharaja was really a sadhu. He preached throughout the entire world and he also sent me to do the same. He told me, "My devotees are in trouble and many problems are coming. They are becoming weak and lifeless; so you should go and help them. ..." (Did he? It's off record.)

    http://www.purebhakti.com/teachers/bhakti-discourses-mainmenu-61/22-discourses-2003/311-an-introduction-.html

    I also found this lecture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXqhj70t7So

    It's interesting since NM is correct about the error in Hayagriva's 1972 Macmillan BG 9.32 (mung et al, that's for you), disapproves such book changes (iow, supports JAS's return to SP's words), but at the end says that SP was wrong when he wrote about 'less intelligent women'. Although it was a very controversial issue, SP insisted on it. So a follower of SP, what to speak of successor, should ponder _how_ to understand it.

    Please write to GBC to get 'authorized' file, compare them and let us know about any tampering.
    Position 14 years old is simply position 14 years old. I guess readers are able to take it into consideration. Don't underestimate them, please.
  39.  
    sri_govinda_das:Manasi-seva and kula-pavanna ...since you have failed again to impress us with your responses ,And since'' your'' guru...narayanna maharaja is attempting a Hostile Takeover of Iskcon,are his Narayanna Maharaja's actions ''krishna concious'' or not?
    Narayana Maharaja has demonstrated very little affinity for taking over brick and mortar temples. He has counselled and helped thousands of devotees deeply frustrated with Iskcon. That is a good thing. And please use some common sense, he is 89 years old and will not get a chance for any hostile takovers so you can sleep in peace.
    • CommentAuthormanasi_seva
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2010 edited
     
    SGD, Srila Prabhupada personally asked for forgiveness for all of his criticisms of his god brothers on his deathbed which means he took it all back, which means idiots like you are simply blaspheming Srila Prabhupada's god brothers who are eternal associates of Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja, what fate awaits you Krishna only knows.

    You know people like you are doing a great service to Iskcon, stay there please, Iskcon is your place it suits your style. The more I hear your rantings the more I think Iskcon is a lost cause.

    By the way Hostile Takeovers is a term most often used in the corporate world.

    SGD you are the most moronic fool I have ever had the dis-pleasure of meeting in a devotional forum, every day you bury yourself deeper in a dark well of blaspheming so many great Vaisnavas who you have never met, you really take the cake. You are supposed to be a Maori tribe leader, when in fact you couldn't lead your way out of a wet paper bag!

    A Tribe leader should demonstrate, deep thinking, patience and wisdom, well I guess you are like a cast goswami...you were born into it not chosen, so its not your fault. But you should try taking a step back and looking at your approach.
    • CommentAuthorTattva das
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2010
     
    Do some research on ISKCON history. Those sannyasis who have been most keen on attacking Sripad B.P. Kesava Maharaja and Sripad B.R. Sridhar Maharaja have almost without exception suffered very severe and public falldowns from their sannyasa asrama. This is not surprising, because if these two Godbrothers of Prabhupada were bogus, then Prabhupada's sannyasa (awarded by Kesava Maharaja, the sannyasa-disciple of Sridhar Maharaja) was bogus, and the offender-sannyasis are implicating themselves as bogus.
    • CommentAuthornarot
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2010
     
    Are you saying that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvatiji Thakur had ever at length discussed his differences with his father or his brother? Are you suggesting we should write books on reasons why Shrila Prabhupada introduced harmonium, brahmacarinis' and western sannyasin orders. It is foolish of you to discard shiksa guru of your Shrila Gurudeva as sahajiya.
    • CommentAuthorTattva das
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2010
     
    OK, let's for a moment stipulate that the Prabhupada-onlyites are correct, and all other Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada are bogus.

    If that's true, then two conclusions follow:

    1. Very few people are really fit to practice the process. Only the most arrogant person would claim that if the process failed for Prabhupada's godbrothers (who generally had far better sanskars and way more sukriti than Westerners), it could somehow work for them. Why preach to others that they should take up a process that usually fails?

    2. If Srila Bhaktisiddhanta had just one true follower, then it stands to reason that Srila Prabhupada might also have had just one true follower. Of course, the ritviks say that he had ZERO true followers able to carry on his mission in full. But this same "All Prabhupada's godbrothers were bogus" attitude is also at the heart of the various intra-ISKCON rivalries. Among today's generations of ISKCON devotees, there have been quite a few who have believed that their guru alone (whether Gaura Govinda Swami, Kirtanananda Swami, Harikesa Swami, Tamal Krishna Goswami, etc.) is the "real" or "topmost" disciple of Srila Prabhupada, and that all the other godbrothers really ought to have surrendered to the one pure disciple of Srila Prabhupada if they really had any spiritual discrimination.

    If this is how ISKCON presents itself, it's no wonder that the other branches of Gaudiya Math are growing while ISKCON is hemorrhaging members.
    Thankful People: manasi_seva, maah!
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2010
     
    I agree with just about everything you wrote, Tattva das --- but as for "why preach to others that they should take up a process that usually fails?"

    When I read that the Bhagavad-gita verse (2.40) came to mind:

    "In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear."

    Anyway - I just have that one side comment but again -- you present a cogent and sensible argument.and the saying "ISKCON is hemorrhaging members" is certainly very original. I like it. Can I use it?
  45.  
    All those inter-matha conflicts, frictions, and disagreements are a direct result of guru-centrism which has dominated the Sarasvata branch of Lord Caitanya's tree. Thinking that: "only my guru is right" certainly has consequences. Preaching that Sri Guru is one is almost nonexistent. The belief in "my guru's words are better than shastra" has become standard in some circles. Of course there will be all kinds of disagreements and no resolution, especially after the gurus pass on.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2010
     
    From a speech given by Srila Prabhupada to the Bombay branch of Gaudiya Math, 1935, on the appearance day of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur:

    "Gentlemen, the offerings of such a homage as has been arranged this evening to the Acharyadeva is not a sectarian concern, because when we speak of the fundamental principle of Gurudeva or Acharyadeva, we speak of something that is of universal application. There does not arise any question of discriminating my Guru from that of yours or of any one else's. There is only one Guru who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others. The Guru or Acharyadeva, as we learn from the bonafide scriptures, delivers the message of the absolute world, I mean the transcendental abode of the Absolute Personality where everything non-differentially serves the Absolute Truth. We have heard so many times that mahajana yena gatah sa pantha (Traverse the trail which your previous acharya has passed.), but we have hardly tried to understand the real purport of this sloka, and if we scrutinously study this proposition we understand that mahajana is one, and the royal road to the transcendental world is also one."
  47.  
    maah! that is one of the most stupid examples I have ever heard, who are you to start judging who is connected to the supreme Lord and who is not. Your lack of humility and Vaisnava qualities betray you and proves you wouldn't have a clue!
  48.  
    portnoy:From a speech given by Srila Prabhupada to the Bombay branch of Gaudiya Math, 1935, on the appearance day of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur: "Gentlemen, the offerings of such a homage as has been arranged this evening to the Acharyadeva is not a sectarian concern, because when we speak of the fundamental principle of Gurudeva or Acharyadeva, we speak of something that is of universal application. There does not arise any question of discriminating my Guru from that of yours or of any one else's. There is only one Guru who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others. The Guru or Acharyadeva, as we learn from the bonafide scriptures, delivers the message of the absolute world, I mean the transcendental abode of the Absolute Personality where everything non-differentially serves the Absolute Truth. We have heard so many times that mahajana yena gatah sa pantha (Traverse the trail which your previous acharya has passed.), but we have hardly tried to understand the real purport of this sloka, and if we scrutinously study this proposition we understand that mahajana is one, and the royal road to the transcendental world is also one."
    Yes, that is just about the only such quote you can find in the writings of SP... from 1935...
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2010
     
    more:

    The Vedas enjoin us to seek out a guru; actually, they say to seek out the guru, not just a guru. The guru is one because he comes in disciplic succession. What Vyasadeva and Krsna taught five thousand years ago is also being taught now. There is no difference between the two instructions. ...The guru may be this person or that, but the message is the same; therefore it is said that guru is one. (SSR 2a)

    Guru means the representative of God. As God is one, similarly, guru is also one. There cannot be different gurus. Because God is one, how there can be different gurus? The principle of guru is one. (arrival lecture, SF 15 July 1975)
    •  
      CommentAuthormaah!
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2010
     
    All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

    Thank you Veda prabhu for those important quotes from SF 15 July 1975.

    As theologists differ on which form of God they concentrate on: God the Father (personal) or God who is Everywhere (impersonal), so ISKCON establishes the personality of God and the personality of Sri Guru in His blessed form of His Divine Grace A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada; and before that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, up and up to the Adi Guru, the Personality of Sri Krishna Himself (Sri Guru Parampara) whereas the other maths use the quote of Kula-pavana prabhu to claim that we should not discriminate against their guru since: "There is only one Guru who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others." They are in one sense right, as the Lord is within a parent who fulfills the role of the first guru, as a teacher does also, as kanishta gurus do, and we are also right in keeping to Sri Guru Srila Prabhupada. But one is higher than the other and obtains a different result as Sri Krishna explains in Chapter 9 of Srimad Bhagavad Gita As It Is.

    Srimad Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter 9, Verse 4.
    "By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them."
    Sri Guru pervades everything but He is not in everyone. When He choses, He takes a form He choses.

    Chapter 9, Verse 5.
    And yet everything that is created does not rest in Me. Behold My mystic opulence! Although I am the maintainer of all living entities, and although I am everywhere, still My Self is the very source of creation.
    "He maintains His own identity separately."

    Chapter 9, Verse 11.
    "Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be." When His own, separate identity assumes the form of the Sri Guru Acarya, Sri Krishna says fools consider Him to be an ordinary guru, on the same level as theirs.

    Sri Krishna next makes a very decisive statement, referring to what He has just spoken:
    Chapter 9, Verse 12.
    "Those who are thus bewildered are attracted by demonic and atheistic views. In that deluded condition, their hopes for liberation, their fruitive activities, and their culture of knowledge are all defeated."

    Srimad Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter 9, Verse 13.
    "O son of Prtha, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible."
    Chapter 9, Verse 14.
    "Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion."

    Sri Isopanishad Verse 13
    "It is said that one result is obtained by worshiping the supreme cause of all causes and that another result is obtained by worshiping what is not supreme. All this is heard from the undisturbed authorities, who clearly explained it."

    Wanting the result of worshipping what is supreme, they bow down before the authorized Sri Guru Acarya, Srila Prabhupada, serve His mission and worship Him with prayers.
    Chapter 9, Verse 15.
    "Others, who are engaged in the cultivation of knowledge, worship the Supreme Lord as the one without a second, diverse in many, and in the universal form."

    The Sri Guru Acarya is before them in His Sri Murthi form, His Books, His instructions, His society, His sound, His photos, His servants, He is also within their hearts, He hears their prayers to Him and mantras dedicated to Him, but they want to worship the impersonal energy of the Lord spread all over, found in a form they like.
    That is like avoiding worship of Sri Archa Vigraha-Lord's form in the Temples, claiming that due to God's All-omnipresent Greatness He cannot have a form, or worshipping rocks because it is after all, also God's energy, and avoiding worship of the Sri Vigraha because they consider it "limiting" or "equal" or "bogus"; they actually accuse Srila Prabhupada's loyal followers of being sectarian! anti-family, anti-friendly and in the wrong! We should not be fooled.

    Hare Krishna

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