Kula pavana P., what you state has nothing to do with the topic. NM's approach differs from Srila Prabhupada's regardless of his glory.

One devotee who is in touch with Paramadvaiti M.'s group and B.G. Narasingha M.'s group told me that there's a wide disagreement with NM among various GMs as well. I also read about this earlier.

"One should very carefully avoid associating with both the sahajiyas, who are sometimes known as Vaisnavas, and the non-Vaisnavas, or avaisnavas. Their association changes the transcendental devotional service of Lord Krishna into sense gratification, and when sense gratification enters the mind of a devotee, he is contaminated."
(Caitanya-caritamrta, Antya 6.278)
What he is clearly saying here[Srila Prabhupada] is that the devotional service of the Supreme can itself be changed —mid-stream, so to speak—into sense gratification. Put in another way, the commentary forcefully indicates that Yogamaya can be converted into Mahamaya. This principle is not well known, although Prabhupada had previously given a hint about it in his Bhagavad-gita:......
"They also have partial independence, but by misuse of their independence, when the service attitude is transformed into the propensity for sense enjoyment, they come under the sway of lust."......
(Bg, 3.39, purport)
So when a guru like Narayana maharaja becomes concerned with the ''ambitious ''mode ....wanting to be the'' iskcon successor'' of Srila Prabhupada ,Is this spiritual or mundane?Is his service attitude being transformed into the propensity for sense enjoyment?.....And there by ''under the sway of lust?

1) His message does not differ at all, he is doing nothing that is not found and recommended within Srila Prabhupada's books.

2) SGD is trying to portray NM as a Sahajiya, firstly lets define what a Sahajiya is by a letter from Srila Prabhupada

“The transcendental symptoms of ecstasy certainly are auspicious, but they are not for advertising to others. One should not advertise directly or indirectly that one is feeling like this. They should be checked. Otherwise one will gradually become sahajiya or one who takes spiritual advancement as something materially manifest.”
(Letter to Makhanlal from Los Angeles on June 3, 1970)

NM to my knowledge has never displayed external symptoms or engages in cheap displays of any kind, he is in the same disciplic line as Srila Prabhupada who had great respect for NM so why should NM be doing or saying anything different to Srila Prabhupada.

3) Yes he openly states that he is an Acharya Successor in the real Iskcon line, but how does Srila Prabupada define the real Iskcon?
Taken from the preface of Bhagavad Gita As It Is, Page 10: http://bbtedit.bbt.info/files/72_Gita_showing_revisions_00_preface_and_intro.pdf

"Some of them said that it is greatly fortunate for the Americans that I have started this Krishna Conscious movement in America. But actually the original father of this movement is Lord Krishna himself"

NM is not making a claim on the assets of the Incorporated Institution he is rightfully claiming his position in the Krishna Consciousness movement that started with Lord Krishna. NM was instructed by his own Guru (Bhakti Prajana Kesava Maharaja) who also gave Sannyas to Srila Prabhupada to help and serve Srila Prabhupada and NM considers Srila Prabhupada to be his shiksha Guru.

4) SGD uses a personal example of where he met non-initiated followers of NM (Bhakta Smo's) that were openly preaching ranganuga bhakti on the streets.
I have memories of many Bhaktas when I joined Iskcon and some were preaching at the Sunday feasts and were often rebuked by other initiated devotees for preaching nonsense because they still did not understand the philosophy. However foolish a bhakta or even a disciple acts that cannot be used as a disqualifier of the Guru, thats like trying to pin the activities of some foolish Iskcon disciples on Srila Prabhupada, who would dare to do this?

5) Iskconites that protest NM usually bring up the issue that he is freely distributing Rananuga Bhakti and Gopi Lila on the streets of the world, yet I cannot find one example where he has said anything about this and infact it is a false assumption that is usually based on the action of a few foolish bhakta's that have mis-understood NM, just like some of Srila Prabhupada's disciples mis-understood and started a Gopi Bhava club back in the 70's

What does NM say about the topic and the qualification:
[Nowadays, especially in European countries and in Russia, devotees think they are very 'rasika'. *[See Endnote 2]. They want rasa (the taste of spiritual mellows). They want to go up to the top of the tree of prema at once. They only want madanakhya-bhava (the highest ecstatic devotional love, situated only in Srimati Radhika). They do not want to follow vaidhi-bhakti. They don't like vaidhi-bhakti.

This idea is very dangerous, so be very careful about this. Those who have these ideas are nonsense sahajiya-vaisnavas.

Srila Rupa Gosvami is Sri Rupa Manjari (his form as a gopi), but outwardly he was following all the limbs of vaidhi-bhakti. If, by the mercy of one's qualified Guru, one has actual greed in his heart - if he is internally serving Krsna on the path of raganuga in his siddha-deha (his original, self-realized position) - he must be at the stage of rati. Real greed will manifest at that stage.*[See endnote 5] Before this, a person has no real greed. In the name of greed, males will be attracted to ladies and the ladies will be attracted to men. This is very dangerous, for they will go to hell. They will not go to the transcendental world to be manjaris." ]

Nowhere is he advertising that we should be distributing Gopi lila on the streets, in-fact quite the opposite he is also saying like Srila Prabupada, first you become qualified then you can look at these subjects.

Here is another quote from Srila Prabhupada for SGD as he is always fond of saying how many temples and followers Iskcon has vs the others:

“You cannot judge a movement simply by the number of its followers. If one man is genuine, then the movement is successful. It is not a question of quantity, but quality.”
(Srila Prabhupada, Science of Self Realization, Ch. 2, "Choosing a Spiritual Master-Saints & Swindlers")

Surprise surprise the GM is in disagreement...Iskcon has disagreements about most subjects and whats news about that, they just settle it through their GBC votes.

Do you have specific quotes VEDA? or just heard something on the grape vine, you know like a throw a little mud it may just stick? I mean you either know something or you don't. Why just offer up innuendos?

So some agree and some disagree...was that not the same way they felt about Srila Prabhupada? It is still not very specific as to exactly what they are in disagreement about? Approach to what exactly? His general approach? Vaisnavas are usually a tad more specific than that. Either he is doing something wrong by way of reference to shastra or he isn't. The acid test is, Guru (NM) what the previous Sadhus have said and Shastra.

As you are fond of telling people to get on topic, the topic is about if NM's message differs to Srila Prabhupada's, we already know many many people disagree with his approach.

I have also heard that at some point in time Srila Sridhara Maharaja expressed some concern and criticism in regard to Narayana Maharaja's preaching style. There were some other disagreements and one issue in particular that had to do with performing Rathayatra on the streets of Nabadwipa became a point of heated contention between the two camps. To this day the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math and Narayana Maharaja are not on friendly terms.

By public I mean in front of a general audience - both disciples and others. Otoh, raganuga topics are to be discussed with a select few intimate disciples. Mahaprabhu had 'three and half' (CC 3.2.105). For others - kirtan, tattva topics and prasadam. Same with Prabhupada.

> CC 3.2.105 only states who were Chaitanya's intimate disciples it makes no reference to what can and cannot be discussed. So thats an irrelevant quote.

Not really.

Due to the immature understanding of such rascals, common men should not discuss Krsna’s pastimes with the gopis. A nondevotee should not even discuss His stealing sweet rice for His devotees. It is warned that one should not even think about these things. Although Krsna is the purest of the pure, mundane people, thinking of Krsna’s pastimes that appear immoral, themselves become polluted. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu therefore never publicly discussed Krsna’s dealings with the gopis. He used to discuss these dealings only with three confidential friends. He never discussed rasa-lila publicly, as the professional reciters do, although they do not understand Krsna or the nature of the audience. However, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu encouraged the public chanting of the holy name on a huge scale for as many hours as possible. (CC 2.4.133 p.)

If you're attracted to NM, it's your thing. But the fact remains: his approach differs from SP, his own guru and param guru.

Attached is the GBC position for those who don't know it.

dweller-in-peace:

>But the fact remains: his approach differs from SP, his own guru and param guru.

So what's wrong in being different. He is a different personality. Why should he try to be a carbon copy, a clone of Srila Prabhupada? Why should a lotus start imitating and try to become a rose? He is a different Acarya.

Srila Prabhupada was quite a bit different in many ways than his own guru. And Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was very, very, different than his guru or even his own father, BVT. If it was OK for them to be different, why is it not OK for NM to be different?

VEDA:

> Srila Prabhupada was quite a bit different in many ways than his own guru.

Their mood was in sync.

The difference simply means that NM can't be a successor of Srila Prabhupada. That's all.

That would also mean that BSST can't be a successor to GKDB.

VEDA wake up and read the posts, we just said he doesn't discuss those topics referred to in (CC 2.4.133 p.) he only discusses Volume one of Rasamrta Sindhuh which is NOT the Krishna's pastimes with the gopis. Your repeated lack of understanding on this topic is showing.

>>Their mood was in sync

NM is only discussing what Srila Prabhupada had written about in his Nectar of Devotion and C.C. Volumes and what was openly published, distributed to the public and discussed even by Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja (check the date on the Bhakti Rasamrta Sinduh's Volume one available at Yoga Pith, these were published while Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja was alive) These topics are non-confidential.

That does not constitute a mood change. Individual? yes he is, Outspoken? absolutely as most acharya's are. But mood change is another attempt by die hard Iskconites to thwart free thinking devotees that refuse a GBC performed lobotomy.

>>The difference simply means that NM can't be a successor of Srila Prabhupada. That's all.
What is this garbage? You think you are the one that now rubber stamps successors? LMHO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It doesn't work like that VEDA he is a successor and he is in the disciplic line, whether one person knows it or all people know it.

And VEDA STOP passing around text files that 1) Are 14 years old and completely outdated 2) Are simple text files than can be modified by anyone. If you want to live up to your tag name "VEDA" then pass authorized links that are published on authorized GBC websites. Stop being a complete irresponsible nonsense. You need to keep up with current events...14 year old text files and he claims its the current thinking on NM by the GBC ...ROFL!

A small contingent of the GBC met with NM on the 25th Oct 2009 here is an excerpt of what happened:

"Narayana Maharaja made several proposals how to improve the relationship between ISKCON and himself and his followers. The ISKCON delegation said it would convey those suggestions to the full GBC Body. Narayana Maharaja and the ISKCON leaders expressed their shared desire that the two Vaishnava organizations would like to see cordial relations between them based on mutual respect and understanding."

Taken from the authorised News Iskcon website, check it out for yourself.

http://news.iskcon.com/node/2354

LMHO....I like you Portnoy you are so much fun, and I perfectly agree you with about Srila Prabhupada, he will always be my #1 Shiksha Guru in him I have absolute faith and by seeing what he achieved gives one faith in the entire disciplic succession.

I just don't like to see Great Vaisnavas that are contributing so much and giving over of their time and energy to help others on the path get blasphemed and slighted by inaccurate innuendos.

======================

Yes wasn't that seen when the Nazis opened the ark...Wax figurines in front of heat jets...you only melted when you look right?...I will be careful not to look...only to listen.. I am that little monkey with his hands over his eyes "see no evil"

(O_O)...(X_X)

I agree rasa108. Even if a disciple is convinced that when Srila Prabhupada instructed "I want none of my disciples to have any intimate association with my godbrothers (Gaudiya Math)" it was meant for all of us and for all time under any and all circumstances -- no exceptions -- no rationalizations .... then fine -- keep a (safe) distance but that doesn't mean lash out at any or all of them on a public forum, criticizing and condemning them -- but rather from that distance be respectful and represent Srila Prabhupada with maturity, dignity and class.

A disciple's goal in life is to please, satisfy, glorify and serve his guru -- to make his guru smile. If we think like that ("what would Srila Prabhupada think of what I said or did or wrote -- would he be pleased ....) then we can't go wrong. That's not true -- we can go wrong but if our intention is sincere then even if we make a mistake and do, say, write something that displeases our guru -- it can be forgiven.

One time during a darshan one of the godbrothers refused to come join the others because he felt very fallen having slipped and smoked a cigarette that morning. He was standing outside the room by the door but refused to come in. Srila Prabhupada was told about it and he said, "whatever you have done, I forgive you -- now come sit down and join us."

manasi_seva,

what I repeat is the conclusion of other GM groups about NM. Again: they disagree with him.

Srila Prabhupada lectured from BRS much less (as per Vedabase: 47 lectures between October 1972-January 1973, 1 in June 1970) in comparison with BG and SB since tattva comes before rasa.

I don't 'thwart free thinking devotees'. Let them think as freely as they want. (SP used to say it another way though.)

The mood difference is real. NM is acarya in his own mission. Let his mission and ISKCON be good neighbors with 'cordial relations'. No more succession claims? No more preaching to ISKCON congregations? No more selling NM books in front of Krsna Balaram Mandir? If yes, then it's great news. I'm in favor of ISKCON's cooperation with GM groups on good neighbor terms, without unwelcome intrusions from any side. Plain civility.

You don't have to read the file but it's informative and quotes from NM's own Prabandhavali.
There was another, updated document in 1997 'Following in Srila Prabhupada's footsteps'.

Btw, why are you concerned about 'authorized GBC websites' if you don't follow GBC? Or did you change your mind recently?

> There is always infighting between different maths.

And therefore their common disagreement with NM is even more significant.

They agree on disagreement with NM. Still not clear? Can't put it simplier.

Please accept my humble obeisances Narayanna maharaja and his enthusiastic followers! ....My friendly devotional opponents kula-pavanna and manasi seva...please help us understand to appreciate his mood.....since he is also meant to be our loving siksa guru!
Would anyone think ''our Srila Prabhupada '' would approach his ISKCON Society with the following attitude?
That it is a lowlevel''kanistha organization and a karma yoga institution.
That Srila Prabhupada would give a lecture, then in extremely ''bad form '',start to dwell on......... the Evils of the GBC and other ISKCON leaders?Hence in essence he would openly.......'' start to attack his senior devotees in front of the newest Bhakta's''.....who have just arrived in the door
Would he openly attack the new devotees faith in ISKCON itself?Hence possibly destroying their brittle faith in their immediate leaders and fellow devotee association.......I think not!.
Would our Srila Prabhupada do this in a Gaudiya matha temple if asked to preach to their devotees?Start to harass and denigrate that gaudiya matha 's management and its guru?......I think not!
Would our Srila Prabhupada then attach himself to several ex-iskcon members.....reinitiate them ,even though their guru is in good standing and then target the congregational members of that gaudiya matha!...I think not!
Then plan his whole six month schedule to visit their members and congregations exclusively.....while vomiting sad ennuendo and vicious personal attacks on the local guru and management team!Would he possibly do this?Manasi seva and kula-pavanna ,what is your opinion?.....I know our Srila Prabhupada never ever did this to his Gaudiya matha godbrothers or their disciples!
So why is Narayanna maharaja doing this to iskcon?............if he is the Spiritual successor of Iskcon's Founder-Archarya.......would he not be compassionate,loving,charming,concerned and most of all''forgiving ''to us neophytes?So why is he acting like Iskcon's enemy!...Please explain in simple terms prabhu's....what is your answers?

sri_govinda_das:

Please accept my humble obeisances Narayanna maharaja and his enthusiastic followers! ....My friendly devotional opponents kula-pavanna and manasi seva...please help us understand to appreciate his mood.....since he is also meant to be our loving siksa guru!

He does not have to be your siksa guru. That is the beauty of it. Just 'forgive' him what you consider to be his 'transgressions'. I 'forgave' Prabhupada for using dirty money to build temples in Mayapur and Vrindavana even as I still think it was a wrong thing to do. We can be both critical and respectful at the same time.

Manasi-seva and kula-pavanna ...since you have failed again to impress us with your responses ,And since'' your'' guru...narayanna maharaja is attempting a Hostile Takeover of Iskcon,are his Narayanna Maharaja's actions ''krishna concious'' or not?
These'' Hostile takeover'' dealings have understandably given rise to serious doubts about Narayanna maharaja's motive and positive mood of devotional service concerning iskcon.
Of course Narayanna maharaja is a pure devotee,but the presumption is the Question here! His hostile activities exhibit that certain
driven, obsessive character which is usually the indicator of hidden motivation...hence my personal veiw, that it is the focus on the ''ISKCON archarya'' position which has set this certain ''offensive mood' and iskcon reaction ' in motion .The habitual problem for all previous gaudiya matha guru since the passing of Srila Bhaktisiddanta.

A senior mature Prabhupada disciple who had spent several years with Narayana Maharaja and his followers but became disillusioned. Furnished us with some interesting information.

This devotee reports having directly heard -- this was at Gaura Purnima .... years ago -- Narayana Maharaja vowed to reinitiate the disciples of '' ISKCON gurus''.

According to this witness, Narayana Maharaja voiced the judgment that because Tamal Krishna Goswami and Giriraja Swami, stopped visitng him, and since literally he has been ''banned........ we tell all our people not to visit him'', it is the proof that we are "not bonafide Vaisnavas." ................So this is where this inimical mood to reinitiate their disciples has sprang from!!" His attitude was obviously......, "I'll show them! I'll reinitiate all their disciples!" And that is what he has been doing!.Interesting the Iskcon grapevine!this was also backed up by Narayanna maharaja's representatives...posting this similiar argument on VNN WEBSITE ........ Didn't Prabhupada emphasize the importance of his books for us?

Didn't srila Prabhupada, tell us that association with him via his books was better than his personal association? Now, how is a person who has never ''even bothered to read Prabhupada's books''......how can he be considered his siksa disciple? How is he to represent Prabhupada to us?
1. If a guru forbids his disciples from taking instruction from an advanced Vaisnava, the guru, being envious of an advanced Vaisnava, should be rejected by the disciple.

[From Narahari Sakara]



2. Narayana Maharaja is an advanced Vaisnava..........which i have serious doubts with!And since my guru Tamala Krishna goswami started the ball rolling.....that ISKCON gurus forbid their disciples from hear from him! Therefore, the disciples should reject the ISKCON gurus.



Logically, the argument is valid. However Narayanna maharaja is not Qualified in my humble opinion....having listened to him!

If shrigovinda says one is not qualified, he must be qualified, if shrigovinda says someone is qualified, take it otherwise: we can not trust him, because shrigovinda inapparently is a lier as well.

http://radha.tribe.net/thread/17f87341-4f96-492c-be77-9dc76f968e59...this is an article written by Narayanna maharaja....its source is from the Ujjvalla-nilamani.
Which SRILA Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati thakura instructed his direct disciples not to read these three literatures...or become familiar with them!The other texts were the ''Gita-GOVINDA'' and the ''Govinda-lilamrita''.Since he was aware of the subtle tendency's to veiw mundane sex-life in a perverted manner....even within his own followers,he instructed all his followers to steer clear of such literatures!
This ''over intelligence'' to think Narayanna maharaja knows better,and ineffect disobey the order of the spiritual master, and comment on and introduce such knowledge is extremely displeasing to our PARAM GURU.....Such activities are offensive behaviour by Narayanna maharaja!When you read the posts on the following page ,your are struck by the ''sahajaism being created'',as fresh people off the street ....ask ''did these things really happen''?This is an example of the obvious immense difference between our srila Prabhupada and Narayanna maharaja!Where does AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada say it is alright to introduce these literatures to neophytes,and have them discussing RASA-LILA, after thirty seconds!!....Manasi-seva....kula-pavanna...NO ''uttama-adhikare'' would introduce such bizarre teachings direct to the mundane public!Read these pathetic postings and see what sort of sahajaism is being created by NARAYANNA Maharaja's preaching.

parvati
parvati
offline 4
Re: The Glories of Srimati Lalita Sakhi
Tue, January 2, 2007 - 4:37 PM
I have a question. All of the stories on this tribe...are they real or did you make them up? I'm sorry if the question is rude, I don't know how else to ask.
SECOND POSTING..confessions of one person at sight The next time I read a book about Sri Lalita Devi or hear about her I will definately appreciate the story much more now that I know who she is. The problem is, I am such a sahajiya I should not even hear about her or else I will think I can become her follower very cheaply. Why did I read books not by Srila Prabhupada?! Books that turned me into a sahajiya! Someday I will run out of other books to read and then I will be able to read Srila Prabhupada's books again and that will save me. In the meantime I am stuck in the darkest mode of ignorance.
join to post ...the real preaching of Narayanna maharaja!........sahajaism abounds!

Narayana Maharaja writes:


“Guru-parampara is included in bhagavata-parampara. Those disciples who are fully following Gurudeva's mood and teachings are in the bhagavata-parampara.”

Narayana Maharaja is prone to place his guru , Bhakti-kesava maharaja a long with Srila Prabhupada .... as both being in the bhagavata parampara,with all of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s disciples who didn’t fall down ...are also members of the bhagavata parampara. However ''our Srila Prabhupada'' went so far as to call many of his Godbrothers ''useless'', and certainly indicated that he did not accept them as being in the bhagavata-parampara.
However this is definitely a major point of difference,which illustrates how different and dis-similar they are! Our Prabhupada made statements,that his godbrothers became useless because they disobeyed the order of their guru to form a GBC – not only in letters and conversations, but right in the purports of his Srimad bhagavatam and chaitanya caritamrita .Such MAJOR distinguishing points of difference. make Narayanna maharaja's many claims of being Srila Prabhupada's spiritual successor....his siksa guru, simply incompatable..and erroneous!.

This means that Srila Prabhupada did not place these Godbrothers in the same category as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and all the others who Srila Prabhupada listed in the bhagavata parampara. Narayana Maharaja, on the other hand, is not clear about which one of his Spiritual Master’s Godbrothers should and should not be included in the bhagavata parampara.Are such doubts sublime and transcendental?Are these these thoughts in line with our Srila Prabhupada's mood?I would suggest not!

Narayana Maharaja being the consumate sweet speaker profusely avoids discussing the signifigant differences between himself and Srila Prabhupada. In fact.... no difference is apparent from his vision, that he and Srila Prabhupada were in ''sync'' on all major points.
However despite such sweet words,Our Srila PRABHUPADA was adament and intense in his criticism of his Godbrothers for not following the mood of the bhagavata parampara,Which was the special legacy of Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati Thakura. Narayana Maharaja offers his vision , the “siddhanta, behaviour and moods”,as an interesting diplomatic offering concerning ,''such goings on''!
This seemingly widespread intention to dis-obey their guru's instructions was the reason Srila Prabhupada refused to accept they were legitimately included in our illustrious and unique'' bhagavata parampara''.
Hence because Narayanna maharaja failed to appreciate or infuse Our param guru's particular flavour of preaching personally within his heart.
It is my submission that ''he is outside our single pointed Bhaktivedanta-iskcon line'',because he has not surrendered his personal ideas and mood to his supposed siksa guru ...Srila PRABHUPADA.
Which would also explain his singular inability to understand that preaching from the Ujjvalla-nilamani,gita govinda and the Govinda-lillamrita ,is definitely a ''vaisnava taboo ''and disobeying the clear instruction and mission of Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Thakura.His view was these sacred texts allow a certain immature appreciation of Rasa lila to possibly appear!Which might be mistaken and allow sahaja-ism to infiltrate his preaching mission as a result....
On a personal note Manasi seva ....Narayanna maharaja has attacked our sacred guru's teachings ,and his Iskcon society....which i find very offensive!
It is infact the'' duty of every disciple is to protect the guru''.Srila Bhaktivinoda thakura describes this in a letter to his diksa guru Viphina bihari goswami.Which includes his[our Srila Prabhupada's ] reputation which Narayanna maharaja foolishly is unable to properly appreciate ,since he has brutally attacked his ''preaching legacy on many occasions'' and by casting baseless innuendo's at inexperienced iskcon devotees publically, has in effect attacked their faith in our Founder-Archarya himself.

Are you saying that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvatiji Thakur had ever at length discussed his differences with his father or his brother? Are you suggesting we should write books on reasons why Shrila Prabhupada introduced harmonium, brahmacarinis' and western sannyasin orders. It is foolish of you to discard shiksa guru of your Shrila Gurudeva as sahajiya.