Please don't count me among the great souls, but here is my take on it...

If it is not approved by Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita as a legitimate religious process, it is bogus. Bhagavad gita lays down the law, nowhere does Krsna say "You can do whatever you like, as long as it is pleasing to your guru". It is not Vedic.

And my gut feeling? Run to the hills from anybody who tells you: "There is no need to respect the morals and values of normal society. All you have to do is please me, and I'm your guru who knows exactly what pleases God".

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

From the lowly 'servant' of great souls:

The beautiful young milkmaids of Vraja break the highest societal codes for ladies, giving up the company of their husbands, family and young children to run to Sri Krishna in the dead of night and their love is glorified by Sriman Mahaprabhu as being on the highest level; nothing impedes it. The queens of Lord Krishna were tested by Sri Narada Muni when He asked them for some foot dust to cure Sri Krishna's headache. The queens were unwilling, as putting the dust of one's own feet on the Supreme Lord is certainly a great offense, but the milkmaids said, "Let us go to Hell, just let Krishna be happy." This going against what is generally followed in society is not arificial, it is practical demonstration of the condition of the heart of the greatest souls, and reveals to all what we can aspire to. Less it be cheapened, let's not forget the milkmaids also willingly spent the remainder of their lives in a greatly distressed condition lamenting the loss of their only beloved Object of love.

Misunderstanding one's adikar causes falldown. For neophytes like us, and anyone not on that level of unmotivated, uninterupted devotion, Srila Prabhupada's general instruction is to respect and obey the mundane morals and values of society, which, for the most part is ALREADY ACHIEVED better than the norm, by following his basic instructions. In some cases, neophyte devotees work against the laws to establish Sri Krishna. Ie: book distribution where is it not allowed, fighting for access to Bhaktivedanta Manor, etc. Lord Caitanya gathered a crowd of devotees in civil disobedience to the Chand Kasi's injunction against Harinam Samkirtan. In some rare cases the bona fide Acarya instructs certain disciples according to their karma to engage in the Lord's service in a manner not understood or appreciated by the genreal mass of persons or devotees.

Devotees do not put themselves in positions to compel the Lord to serve them (save them) by breaking laws. Nor do they knowingy set bad examples for a society which operates on an entirely different energy--Maya's. Lord Krishna has given full control over the rebellious souls in this world to her and thinking we are free of her when we are not is inviting trouble. Daivi Varnashram requires good examples and it is our duty to try to fulfill Srila Prabhupada's wish of extablishing it. One who is self-realized, on the liberated platform, and hears Sri Caitya Guru instructing from within, their only duty is to obey that, never mind any other concern, same for those who receive instructions from a bona fide Sri Guru Acarya spiritual master, as They are non-different.

The antinomianism you describe brings to minds attempts by low-class religious groups, who pretend to be devoted to God but mix with other men's wives in secret, are addicted to intoxicants or perform other nefarious activities. If one engages in any form of forbidden sense gratification and claims to be exempt from norms because they belong to a particular religious group, they are cheating. Sriman Mahaprabhu made example of Junior Haridas to instruct us how strict those claiming to be His followers should be.

We should pray to become advanced so we can respect the highly placed spiritual position of devotees like Sri Ramananda Raya who bathed young girls for Lord Jagannath's pleasure or Sri Sabari mataji, who tasted fruit before Lord Rama to make sure it was sweet enough for Him or Srila Pundarika Vidyanidhi, who appeared to be a materialist interested in bodily comfort. Otherwise we will make offense at the lotus feet of Vaisnavas by correcting, critisizing, and foul mouthing, which will not be very good for our spiritual lives and will negate the effect of Harikatha. Committing sin on the stregnth of chanting is one of the ten offenses. Such chanting is dangerous. Harinama Cintamoni, the touchstone effect of the Holy Name to give whatever one wants will give us a sense of pride, superiority, closed mindedness and liking for quarrel. In this way we will go far away from what Srila Prabhupada has so mercifully come to bring us.

Final thought: Due to our neophyte status we are very much ready to assume that we can do anything because we 'are devotees' or chant Hare Krishna.

Your question: "Without necessary appreciation of mundane morals and values of normal society (ie: do unto others as you would have them do unto you: be respectful, honest and polite) how relevant is this amongst our thinking?"

Our society is here on Pariparsnena. How relevant is this amonst our thinking. What do you think?

I think the question really being asked and is the heart of Antinomianism is can we flout the laws of the land and think that the end justifies the means, as the Christians thought they were freed from common law by virtue of grace as set forth in the gospel.

It is interesting to see how when asked the question most say yes and start providing all sorts of religious quotes to say that we can do illegal things as long as we are trying to serve Guru or Krishna. Hansadutta (another ex Iskcon Guru) thought he could when he was engaged in selling hard core drugs and was busted with the drugs and a car boot full of machine guns. I am sure the judge was amused at sentencing when the defendant says "But I was just doing it for God and my Guru Maharaja"

It is true that some Laws are unjust and they must be fought, Mahatma Ghandi believed the English occupation of India was illegal and he was right, he was so right he kicked the mighty British Empire out of India through peaceful, non-violent non-cooperation. However many laws protect us all and to this today protect our freedom to be able to choose a religion and dress the way we want (not in all countries but most)

The extreme side of Antinomianism is also what leads people to start killing each other over religion or beliefs and if not checked it becomes the ugly side of religion. All religions/spiritual sects are guilty of this crime. Yes even Gaudia Vaisnava's.

If you find yourself in a position where you are facing unjust laws then you must fight them, like the Russian devotees who were locked up in the 80's simply for practicing Krishna Consciousness and with the help and protest of devotees around the world, they were set free. But it is not in the interest of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the disciplic succession or Srila Prabhupada's memory to lie, cheat and steal or to break common laws and then to cover that action in your mind with the thought "Ah it doesn't matter its for Prabhupada and Krishna". This sort of thinking has seen many devotees serve time in prison and it presents the worst representation of Gaudia Vaisnavism.

Moral codes are far more temporary than laws, in the west we see moral codes changing very quickly even within a single generation (30 years). But some of our laws have been around for 200+ years and some with no change, laws are also temporary on the grand scale, but not like morals.

You can never start quoting what the Gopi's of Vrindavan did in the pastimes of Radha and Krishna in a discussion like this, they are in Goloka Vrindavan, the deepest spiritual realm. We are in the material world where laws are necessary to control materialistically minded people, we are discussing simple common people breaking or flouting common law and using their beliefs to justify it.

SGD, I think you are confusing the issues, its one thing to be fired up and willing to serve Guru and Krishna its a different issue when you are breaking the laws and people are being imprisoned.

I remember the period of not being able to distribute books, that was an unjust law, they should have fought that one right up to the supreme court, but instead they chose the easy path, telling lies while dressed up falsely as Karmi's, selling all sorts of garbage like Hong Kong oil paintings for 300-500 bucks that were worth 5-20 bucks. Yes they made alot of money, did they break any laws, not really, but they had to constantly lie about who they were and the true value of their products.

You think it should all be like that again? No it never will because people (devotees) are no longer that stupid and no longer willing to maintain a facade of lies and deceit, in fact in someways things have improved, some devotees are less gullible. To be honest I had trouble with that one straight away, here I was shaved up and supposed to be studying shastra but instead I was given Karmi clothes and a wig and told to sell paintings and rip as much money as I could off of people. It lasted a few weeks then at that point I couldn't reconcile the lies and deceit. What you experienced here was the sub-culture of Iskcon it had nothing to do with Gaudia Vaisnavism just some concocted fraudulent way of making money that was sold to you as Sankirtan, you were so gullible then and you are so gullible now.

The word got changed from Paraphernalia sales to Sankirtan, it had nothing to with Sankirtan (another deviation), more like Scamkirtan. The leaders were telling young devotees if you can simply sell these paintings all your life you will automatically go back to godhead, which is a load of nonsense. Bhakti Yoga is a science if you don't practice it you don't go anywhere! There are so many Christianised views entering into Iskcon, like just do some simple thing and automatically go back to godhead, its like saying just say you believe and Christ will save you. That is not the teachings, its a science, there are steps to be followed and cheating, lies and being a fraudster will not get you back to godhead, there is no instruction anywhere from anyone in our disciplic succession that asks us to be a cheat a liar and a fraudster, quite the opposite Srila Prabhupada wanted everyone to become a first class man or woman, to speak the truth, the highest truth and become an example to all human beings.

sri_govinda_das:

I remeber when i jioned,thirty years ago.....we were being attacked regularly by the Police and sercurity gaurds... We were seen as a cult,who were into free sex and drugs!

I wonder where the police and security guards got that idea? Maybe they had met Srila Bhavananda Goswami Vishnupada?

Unfortunately Prabhu at that time the guru was to be Tamala krishna goswami ....till he decided he was not merciful enough to initiate in Aotearoa.....New Zealand.This was early 1979....however maybe they wanted to stop the'' future ''sankirtan movement of Sri Chaitanya mahaprabhu.....and his servants which included bhavannada das,hauri sari das and Balarama das from becoming world champion.....and ISKCONS SUPREME ZONAL '' book distributors'' for at least THREE YEARS consecutively .
One week i remember we distributed literally thousands of Srila PRABHUPADA'S BOOKS personally!Each day for 8 hours a day we just took boxes and literally gave them away!Because our wharehouse had several containers of new books outside....stopping traffic!Which created literally an avalanche of interest in Krishna Conciousness!Yes there might have been many problems but our successes were also immense!Which far out-weighs wether someone is a qualified diksa guru or not!
Personally we were creating the foundations then.... for the incredible iskcon society to grow substantially worldwide!We built temples in SYDNEY,MURWILLAMBAH,COLO RIVER.....personally with my godbrothers!Then also had sankirtan marathons for Auckland and Christchurch TEMPLES!...
Which is the reason why having read this philosophical term ''Antinomianism''it struck a cord with me!.Which was illustrated by this example ........From the Transcendental diary...hari sauri das's personal account!
Srila Prabhupada was traveling through New Zealand,Within the car was hari sauri das ,gurukripa swami and himself! ....Guru kripa goswami had given Srila Prabhupada a huge and substantial sankirtan contribution,which paid for krishna -balarama temple's construction!.....,sitting in the car together, traveling together ,Srila Prabhupada was simply ecstatic!........
He said,Krishna and i have built you a house in the spiritual realm,addressing guru-kripa swami. .....obviously he felt extremely indebted to his wonderful disciples!.Which would indeed lead to the ''perfection of his spiritual life''!.....Which he still remebers today obviously!.
However there was also a certain bad reaction amongst the non-devotees as a result of their[GURUKRIPA'S ] preaching teams methods within JAPAN!......So ultimately it would be wonderful if there had not been some disturbance .....however i keep thinking that Srila Prabhupada said to guru-kripa swami ....''Krishna and i have built you a house in the spiritual realm,''

Recently when Narayanna maharaja's temple and land project were sold in a mortgagee sale in Auckland ......very ,very quietly tattva das,would you suggest that it was an empowered preaching stategey of Radharani's or lalita's closest servant Narayanna maharaja!
When our former Iskcon life members come and ask us what happened to the ''hare krishna temple''...?And we are forced to explain their......[Narayanna maharaja's local teams ] immature and lacking behaviour is in no way connected to us ISKCON!....what would you suggest is better?My attitude or their hopeless inept abject failure to last.....for simply a few months in their great project!.....you chose which one Tattva das?

> Recently when Narayanna maharaja's temple and land project were sold in a mortgagee sale in Auckland

C'mon Sri Govinda, I am not a Narayana Maharaja follower, but I'm sure you know this goes on in ISKCON too.

> This isn't the mood of a Gaudiya Vaisnava.

Neither do I claim it.

Yes in fact Iskcon Colo River Farm was in NSW it had been maintained by a community of devotees for decades was sold off by Prabha Vishnu swami, its one thing to be sold out by the banking organisations its another to be sold out by your own GBC rep.

One of the biggest farms Iskcon ever had 27,000 acre farm New Gaudadesh was in the river-land area near Broken Hill, went under during Bhavananda's reign in the 80's sold to China scientists for research.

But SGD never responds to this stuff because all he and VEDA are interested in doing is presenting a one sided argument so they can feel justified in Blaspheming a Gaudiya Vaisnava.

The outrageous thing is all they can do is cut and paste, cut paste they have never met Narayan Maharaja (correct me if I am wrong) and they have never presented any of the above questions to him .

VEDA with his ridiculous examples of how highway robbery can work as long as you are careful to use every penny for Krishna and you just send your robbers away at the end just hoping they won't kill you, and tell me does this include killing people VEDA as long as we do it in Krishna's name. That story you are using about Tirumangai Alvar, he was personally visited in the end by Laxmi and Narayan who he tried to rob and he realised who they were, this is a transcendental story, you cannot use it in this example. In fact Laxmi and Narayan came to get him to stop because he was breaking all the religious codes, don't try it SGD and VEDA you will just end up in prison and Laxmi and Narayan won't come to save you.

manasi, please quote me where do I blaspheme anyone. I only point out differences. If you don't like it, it's not my problem.

One sided argument? I gave two cases - Sri Rama and Tirumagai Alvar - as illustrations. You misunderstood that I advocate the latter.

First you asked for quotes about NM, when you got plenty, you complain of 'cut and paste'... that tells a lot about your character.

I met NM twice. Once I stayed in Kesavaji GM for three days.

Rediculous examples? Like what? Before you choose to offend Tirumangai Alvar, think twice.
Itihasas and Puranas also contain transcendental stories of the Lord and His devotees. Does that mean they're irrelevant to us?

VEDA:

Naimisaranya das writes in Introduction: "The main source for the life of Ramanuja is a book called the Prapannamrta, written in Sanskrit by Anantacarya, a descendant of Andhrapurna."
Do you have a specific confirmation of version with Kumudavali from traditional sources and refutation of Prapannamrta account?

I am not an expert on Alvars but in all Sri Vaishnava theological texts I have read the criminal activities of Tirumangai Alvar are condemned as a life of sin from which he was saved by Lord Narayana himself, proving once and for all that such activities are NOT pleasing to the Lord. This is the undisputed conclusion of the Vaishnava community at large. ---------------------------- Prapannamrita is not considered a shastra by the Vaishnavas - it is more or less a book of stories with a moral, a very popular type of literature in India even today. Some of it's stories do not correspond with other sources on Alvar's history which are considered more authoritative by the Sri Vaishnavas.

[Yes in fact Iskcon Colo River Farm was in NSW it had been maintained by a community of devotees for decades was sold off by Prabha Vishnu swami, its one thing to be sold out by the banking organisations its another to be sold out by your own GBC rep.]

[One of the biggest farms Iskcon ever had 27,000 acre farm New Gaudadesh was in the river-land area near Broken Hill, went under during Bhavananda's reign in the 80's sold to China scientists for research.]

[But SGD never responds to this stuff because all he and VEDA are interested in doing is presenting a one sided argument so they can feel justified in Blaspheming a Gaudiya Vaisnava..........]
In reply to you ....you are right manasi seva ,about Colo river TEMPLE Prabhu! It was a huge waste of a wonderful temple which my freinds and i helped to maintain and paid for!
However in his defense when i recently talked to Prabhuvishnu swami ,i realised he was simply ''beyound his depth''at the time when Bhavannada fell down!He was unable to adjust things....because he was a book distributor not a Sankirtan devotee like us!He failed to really connect with us.....he seemed to be made from a ''different fabric''than our guru ....so he failed in getting our support.
Faced with the immense obstacle of continuing on paying huge temple maintaince payments and weekly prasadam bills of over $10,000 to $20,000 per week for each temple probably scared the hell out of him!So something had to give!Which was also was the result of ''New Gaudadesh''.
But none of these were a huge financial loss's ....like what has happened to the local Narayanna maharaja temple project.Prabhu-vishnu swami merely brought new farm project and north sydney temple....fitting into his particular budget and mood!
Yes i do not agree with his actions back then ...since i helped build a beautiful marble temple with many Prabhupada's disciples.However he is our Prabhu...i am not in full vision,like he was!
But i ask you personally how can you be a Vaisnava when you steal ''other guru's'' neophyte devotees?Why not make them yourself? Because Narayanna maharaja and his humble team,which mostly consist of our ex-godbrothers are not empowered by our Srila PRABHUPADA!
He will not be able to do what we did in our yatra....even his own people are burnt from losing their laxmi invested in their temple!You need ten-fifteen years of huge endeavour to create these wonderful temples!Which they have proved they do not have the stomach for!
We were indeed empowered....yes we made huge mistakes,but we flew....we created huge and powerful temples like sydney,melbourne,Auckland New Govardhana and colo-river from scratch!
Raising and liberating huge amonts of Laxmi from the demons,for immense book distribution.We literally changed how iskcon is perceived in our yatra ....by even the demons!We are now the good guys prabhu!Finally in my own opinion,having studied the facts presented over the last ten odd years ....i am afraid to suggest i do not agree with your veiw that Narayanna maharaja is a Vaisnava!....in simple terms i offer a quote from our Iskcon Founder-Archarya...SrilaPrabhupada A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, March 1968, letter to Hrsikesha:
"I am greatly surprised for Bon Maharaja's initiating you in spite of his knowing that you are already initiated by me. So it is deliberate transgression of Vaisnava etiquette and otherwise a deliberate insult to me. I do not know why he has done like this but no Vaisnava will approve of this offensive action. ......So why is NARAYANNA maharaja performing this Non-vaisnava behaviour ?Infact it seems he has made it his ''regular preaching strategy''!I would humbly suggest it is because he is simply not a VAISHNAVA....!

I don't bet or gamble VEDA its against the four regulative principles, remember? Like I said in NM's presence you would not be bold enough to present one of your grapevine quotes.

Sri Govinda Prabhu may want to consider being more careful with his arguments.

He has told us that the giving of a new name constitutes initiation (as per Jadurani/Syamarani).

And he has given us Prabhupada's quote from the letter to Hrsikesha, stating that it is a violation of Vaishnava etiquette to reinitiate someone else's disciple.

Well, let's not forget that when Bon Maharaja's student Ratin Krishna das approached Srila Prabhupada, Prabhupada reinitiated him as Radhanath das.

Sri Govinda Prabhu can't have it both ways. Either Srila Prabhupada is by his own words an offender who chose to play "tit for tat" with Bon Maharaja, or else -- if Srila Prabhupada is not an offender -- names alone don't constitute initiation and Jadurani/Syamarani remains the initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

My new friend.. tattva das
Her spiritual master is His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the founder-acarya of ISKCON, and world-famous preacher of Krsna Consciousness and Vedic culture, and the saintly spiritual master of millions of spiritual seekers. Soon after meeting him, she was initiated and given the name Jadurani dasi. (Later on, in 1992, he inspired his spiritual successor, Srila Narayana Maharaja, to give her the additional spiritual name of Syamarani dasi, and she became one of his first few disciples.)...
THIS WONDERFUL QUOTE EXISTS PLAINLY TO ILLUSTRATE TO THESE WHO ARE WILLING TO SEE THE DEMONIAC LENGTHS THESE SAD DEVOTEES WILL GO TO CHEAT US ALL!....
NOTICE HOW THE WORDS ...SRILA PRABHUPADA'S.... .HIS SPIRITUAL SUCCESSOR,srila Narayanna maharaja......SHE BECAME ONE OF HIS FIRST FEW DISCIPLES!......This can be found in its entire form at the site Hare Krishna..Bhakti art,windows to the spiritual realm......if you follow the following website ...you will see



http://www.bhaktiart.net/?page=index&action=read&news_id=5&from=page=indexhttp:

MY new friend tattva das,please explain the actual context of Srila Prabhupada'sinvolvement in this possible dispute with BON maharaja....if possible please provide the ''full context'' of the pastime!Possibly you could disprove our guru ......!However my intent with the quote was that Narayanna maharaja was systematically reinitiating everyone...even wives while their husbands are not present!Even willing to possibly break the family apart ,as long as he steals these neophyte devotees from ISKCON!.....Infact this mood seemed to be an Antinomianism sort of mood....within a vaisnava context to me.He seems intent [ narayanna maharaja ]....where by he was willing to destroy all devotion culture to accomplish his own ends!
Especially since he attacked BR SHRIDHAR SWAM in the last years of his existence in this realm.This unfortunate event ,seemingly brought about by NARAYANNA MAHARAJA'S taking shelter of a certain '' caste brahmana's and sahaja-ism'' mentality.Where by he encouraged neophyte devotees to meditate on the sublime pastimes of radha and krishna!

manasi, you didn't establish these quotes as grapevine. Proclamations mean nothing.

VEDA take a step back, you never established your statement as quotes remember:

I asked you:"Do you have specific quotes VEDA? or just heard something on the grape vine, you know like a throw a little mud it may just stick? I mean you either know something or you don't. Why just offer up innuendos?"

Your response was: "Read me carefully: GM groups are in disagreement _with NM_ (his approach). The devotee who mentioned this is trustworthy enough for me. He's neutral regarding NM."

Looks very much the grapevine variety to me!