Philosophy: Antinomianism....would any great souls like to give us their thoughts....?

Please don't count me among the great souls, but here is my take on it...

If it is not approved by Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita as a legitimate religious process, it is bogus. Bhagavad gita lays down the law, nowhere does Krsna say "You can do whatever you like, as long as it is pleasing to your guru". It is not Vedic.

And my gut feeling? Run to the hills from anybody who tells you: "There is no need to respect the morals and values of normal society. All you have to do is please me, and I'm your guru who knows exactly what pleases God".

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

From the lowly 'servant' of great souls:

The beautiful young milkmaids of Vraja break the highest societal codes for ladies, giving up the company of their husbands, family and young children to run to Sri Krishna in the dead of night and their love is glorified by Sriman Mahaprabhu as being on the highest level; nothing impedes it. The queens of Lord Krishna were tested by Sri Narada Muni when He asked them for some foot dust to cure Sri Krishna's headache. The queens were unwilling, as putting the dust of one's own feet on the Supreme Lord is certainly a great offense, but the milkmaids said, "Let us go to Hell, just let Krishna be happy." This going against what is generally followed in society is not arificial, it is practical demonstration of the condition of the heart of the greatest souls, and reveals to all what we can aspire to. Less it be cheapened, let's not forget the milkmaids also willingly spent the remainder of their lives in a greatly distressed condition lamenting the loss of their only beloved Object of love.

Misunderstanding one's adikar causes falldown. For neophytes like us, and anyone not on that level of unmotivated, uninterupted devotion, Srila Prabhupada's general instruction is to respect and obey the mundane morals and values of society, which, for the most part is ALREADY ACHIEVED better than the norm, by following his basic instructions. In some cases, neophyte devotees work against the laws to establish Sri Krishna. Ie: book distribution where is it not allowed, fighting for access to Bhaktivedanta Manor, etc. Lord Caitanya gathered a crowd of devotees in civil disobedience to the Chand Kasi's injunction against Harinam Samkirtan. In some rare cases the bona fide Acarya instructs certain disciples according to their karma to engage in the Lord's service in a manner not understood or appreciated by the genreal mass of persons or devotees.

Devotees do not put themselves in positions to compel the Lord to serve them (save them) by breaking laws. Nor do they knowingy set bad examples for a society which operates on an entirely different energy--Maya's. Lord Krishna has given full control over the rebellious souls in this world to her and thinking we are free of her when we are not is inviting trouble. Daivi Varnashram requires good examples and it is our duty to try to fulfill Srila Prabhupada's wish of extablishing it. One who is self-realized, on the liberated platform, and hears Sri Caitya Guru instructing from within, their only duty is to obey that, never mind any other concern, same for those who receive instructions from a bona fide Sri Guru Acarya spiritual master, as They are non-different.

The antinomianism you describe brings to minds attempts by low-class religious groups, who pretend to be devoted to God but mix with other men's wives in secret, are addicted to intoxicants or perform other nefarious activities. If one engages in any form of forbidden sense gratification and claims to be exempt from norms because they belong to a particular religious group, they are cheating. Sriman Mahaprabhu made example of Junior Haridas to instruct us how strict those claiming to be His followers should be.

We should pray to become advanced so we can respect the highly placed spiritual position of devotees like Sri Ramananda Raya who bathed young girls for Lord Jagannath's pleasure or Sri Sabari mataji, who tasted fruit before Lord Rama to make sure it was sweet enough for Him or Srila Pundarika Vidyanidhi, who appeared to be a materialist interested in bodily comfort. Otherwise we will make offense at the lotus feet of Vaisnavas by correcting, critisizing, and foul mouthing, which will not be very good for our spiritual lives and will negate the effect of Harikatha. Committing sin on the stregnth of chanting is one of the ten offenses. Such chanting is dangerous. Harinama Cintamoni, the touchstone effect of the Holy Name to give whatever one wants will give us a sense of pride, superiority, closed mindedness and liking for quarrel. In this way we will go far away from what Srila Prabhupada has so mercifully come to bring us.

Final thought: Due to our neophyte status we are very much ready to assume that we can do anything because we 'are devotees' or chant Hare Krishna.

Your question: "Without necessary appreciation of mundane morals and values of normal society (ie: do unto others as you would have them do unto you: be respectful, honest and polite) how relevant is this amongst our thinking?"

Our society is here on Pariparsnena. How relevant is this amonst our thinking. What do you think?

I think the question really being asked and is the heart of Antinomianism is can we flout the laws of the land and think that the end justifies the means, as the Christians thought they were freed from common law by virtue of grace as set forth in the gospel.

It is interesting to see how when asked the question most say yes and start providing all sorts of religious quotes to say that we can do illegal things as long as we are trying to serve Guru or Krishna. Hansadutta (another ex Iskcon Guru) thought he could when he was engaged in selling hard core drugs and was busted with the drugs and a car boot full of machine guns. I am sure the judge was amused at sentencing when the defendant says "But I was just doing it for God and my Guru Maharaja"

It is true that some Laws are unjust and they must be fought, Mahatma Ghandi believed the English occupation of India was illegal and he was right, he was so right he kicked the mighty British Empire out of India through peaceful, non-violent non-cooperation. However many laws protect us all and to this today protect our freedom to be able to choose a religion and dress the way we want (not in all countries but most)

The extreme side of Antinomianism is also what leads people to start killing each other over religion or beliefs and if not checked it becomes the ugly side of religion. All religions/spiritual sects are guilty of this crime. Yes even Gaudia Vaisnava's.

If you find yourself in a position where you are facing unjust laws then you must fight them, like the Russian devotees who were locked up in the 80's simply for practicing Krishna Consciousness and with the help and protest of devotees around the world, they were set free. But it is not in the interest of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the disciplic succession or Srila Prabhupada's memory to lie, cheat and steal or to break common laws and then to cover that action in your mind with the thought "Ah it doesn't matter its for Prabhupada and Krishna". This sort of thinking has seen many devotees serve time in prison and it presents the worst representation of Gaudia Vaisnavism.

Moral codes are far more temporary than laws, in the west we see moral codes changing very quickly even within a single generation (30 years). But some of our laws have been around for 200+ years and some with no change, laws are also temporary on the grand scale, but not like morals.

You can never start quoting what the Gopi's of Vrindavan did in the pastimes of Radha and Krishna in a discussion like this, they are in Goloka Vrindavan, the deepest spiritual realm. We are in the material world where laws are necessary to control materialistically minded people, we are discussing simple common people breaking or flouting common law and using their beliefs to justify it.

sri_govinda_das:I remeber when i jioned,thirty years ago.....we were being attacked regularly by the Police and sercurity gaurds... We were seen as a cult,who were into free sex and drugs!

I wonder where the police and security guards got that idea? Maybe they had met Srila Bhavananda Goswami Vishnupada?

Lord Shiva could digest an ocean of poison, but you and I are forbidden from trying to imitate him.

Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers saw him digesting CHILD-RAPE, DRUG-SMUGGLING, MURDER, PROSTITUTION, RACKETEERING and other crimes, alongside rampant NAMAPARADHA and APASIDDHANTA.

Can anyone blame Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers for steering their own followers away from ISKCON's filthy activities that would have repulsed any onlooker who was not a thug or a hippie?

Even so, a few of Srila Prabhupada's most perceptive and advanced godbrothers could recognize what was happening. They saw that their junior godbrother "Swami Maharaja" was in fact an exalted and unique shaktyavesh avatar, as predicted by Bhaktivinode Thakur. Remember, it wasn't the ISKCON devotees who first recognized this about their own spiritual master -- they were told about Srila Prabhupada's exalted status by his godbrothers Yajavar Maharaja and Sridhar Maharaja.

Now, 30+ years after Srila Prabhupada's tirobhava, what do we see? We see an entire movement dedicated to the premise that "SRILA PRABHUPADA DIGESTED AN OCEAN OF POISON (but not a drop administered by his own disciples, of course!), SO WE WILL CALL THAT POISON 'NECTAR' AND TRY TO DRINK IT OURSELVES!"

If Srila Prabhupada had not engaged a generation of Jagais and Madhais in Krishna's service, they would have been nothing more than another batch of thugs and druggies and lowlifes. But by the touch of Srila Prabhupada, their filthy lives became glorious. Many recognized that glory, and understood with profoundest gratitude that it came fully from Srila Prabhupada. Sadly, a few later decided that they now had become glorious themselves, and could safely continue the program of CHILD-RAPE, DRUG-SMUGGLING, MURDER, PROSTITUTION, RACKETEERING, NAMAPARADHA and APASIDDHANTA on their own strength. And what do we see? They cannot drink the ocean of poison, and they lose their heads (whether in a car crash or by a sharp knife), or lose control of their senses, or lose their minds and abandon the pure devotional service that Srila Prabhupada had allowed them to perform.

Yes, ISKCON has big temples. The Catholic Church has bigger temples. Yes, the Catholic Church has even more child-rape (on an absolute basis -- though on a per-capita basis, ISKCON remains the child-rape champion). I find it interesting to notice the attributes that Sri Govinda Prabhu associates with the "success" of ISKCON -- if ISKCON continues to measure its success in the same manner as Sri Govinda Prabhu, it will in a few generations be even more remarkably like the Catholic Church, and not at all like the ideal Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur outlined in his essay on organized religion.

> Recently when Narayanna maharaja's temple and land project were sold in a mortgagee sale in Auckland

C'mon Sri Govinda, I am not a Narayana Maharaja follower, but I'm sure you know this goes on in ISKCON too.

> This isn't the mood of a Gaudiya Vaisnava.

Neither do I claim it.

Yes in fact Iskcon Colo River Farm was in NSW it had been maintained by a community of devotees for decades was sold off by Prabha Vishnu swami, its one thing to be sold out by the banking organisations its another to be sold out by your own GBC rep.

One of the biggest farms Iskcon ever had 27,000 acre farm New Gaudadesh was in the river-land area near Broken Hill, went under during Bhavananda's reign in the 80's sold to China scientists for research.

But SGD never responds to this stuff because all he and VEDA are interested in doing is presenting a one sided argument so they can feel justified in Blaspheming a Gaudiya Vaisnava.

The outrageous thing is all they can do is cut and paste, cut paste they have never met Narayan Maharaja (correct me if I am wrong) and they have never presented any of the above questions to him .

VEDA with his ridiculous examples of how highway robbery can work as long as you are careful to use every penny for Krishna and you just send your robbers away at the end just hoping they won't kill you, and tell me does this include killing people VEDA as long as we do it in Krishna's name. That story you are using about Tirumangai Alvar, he was personally visited in the end by Laxmi and Narayan who he tried to rob and he realised who they were, this is a transcendental story, you cannot use it in this example. In fact Laxmi and Narayan came to get him to stop because he was breaking all the religious codes, don't try it SGD and VEDA you will just end up in prison and Laxmi and Narayan won't come to save you.

manasi, please quote me where do I blaspheme anyone. I only point out differences. If you don't like it, it's not my problem.

One sided argument? I gave two cases - Sri Rama and Tirumagai Alvar - as illustrations. You misunderstood that I advocate the latter.

First you asked for quotes about NM, when you got plenty, you complain of 'cut and paste'... that tells a lot about your character.

I met NM twice. Once I stayed in Kesavaji GM for three days.

Rediculous examples? Like what? Before you choose to offend Tirumangai Alvar, think twice.
Itihasas and Puranas also contain transcendental stories of the Lord and His devotees. Does that mean they're irrelevant to us?

VEDA:Naimisaranya das writes in Introduction: "The main source for the life of Ramanuja is a book called the Prapannamrta, written in Sanskrit by Anantacarya, a descendant of Andhrapurna." Do you have a specific confirmation of version with Kumudavali from traditional sources and refutation of Prapannamrta account?

I am not an expert on Alvars but in all Sri Vaishnava theological texts I have read the criminal activities of Tirumangai Alvar are condemned as a life of sin from which he was saved by Lord Narayana himself, proving once and for all that such activities are NOT pleasing to the Lord. This is the undisputed conclusion of the Vaishnava community at large. ---------------------------- Prapannamrita is not considered a shastra by the Vaishnavas - it is more or less a book of stories with a moral, a very popular type of literature in India even today. Some of it's stories do not correspond with other sources on Alvar's history which are considered more authoritative by the Sri Vaishnavas.

Again, I'm not trying to claim that his activities were proper (that's obvious from the end of the story) and I don't advocate them. How many times do I have to mention it for you, manasi? I presented that as an example of antinomianism.
If I quote an account from Hitler's life, you'll call me a Nazi, manasi? That seems to be your logic.

I'm concerned if this specific account from Prapannamrta, considered one of the closest sources on Ramanuja's life, is genuine or not.

My thesis? No thesis, these are just straight quotes.
How much did you bet? You lost.

It was you who mentioned betting, thus my reaction.

Oh, now it's 'grapevine quotes'... (put a smiley of your choice here) Can you present anything refuting them?

Grapevine quotes don't need refuting, they are the same as gramin katha (Village Talk) they have no basis in fact just hear say, usually its old woman that have nothing better to do with their lives so they engage in gramin katha.

manasi, you didn't establish these quotes as grapevine. Proclamations mean nothing.

VEDA take a step back, you never established your statement as quotes remember:

I asked you:"Do you have specific quotes VEDA? or just heard something on the grape vine, you know like a throw a little mud it may just stick? I mean you either know something or you don't. Why just offer up innuendos?"

Your response was: "Read me carefully: GM groups are in disagreement _with NM_ (his approach). The devotee who mentioned this is trustworthy enough for me. He's neutral regarding NM."

Looks very much the grapevine variety to me!