All glories to Srila Prabhupada! Hare Krishna.

Dear Hashama,

Hare Krishna. ISKCON is a wonderful, unique, transcendental institution designed to help all souls in all stages of interest, in various degrees of desire to gradually reach the supreme destination. You will be expected to conform to idelogy and behaviors currently operating below your level of sukriti, which will give you pain and confusion.

It appears from what you have written, that your eternal Divine Guru is very much with you and present in your understanding and your life due to your pastlives involvement in devotional service under a bona fide Sri Guru Acarya. If you really only want Him and Sri Krishna, just cry and pray and He will reveal Himself to you. He will surely manifest Himself externally, He will come to you. This is what He does, it is what He wants to do. He hears our prayers and He responds. Hare Krishna.

All the best

Apparently paradoxical but no contradiction.
Ysvt.

Manasi- and yes its a complete contradiction.

Not true!

Ysvt.

HK!

I'm not sure but u maybe should think long and hard before u jump in with the neo-GM.

http://krishna.org/srila-prabhupada-on-his-godbrothers/

Also ISKCON has much better facility etc which could be helpful in the beginning IMHO.

http://www.krishna.com/

my advice would be wait for next self-effugent Sri Guru Acarya.(I am pretty sure he will appear within ISKCON,in some lifetime at least) Untill then take shelter of the person bhagavam SP and the book bhagavatam.

SP himself waited 11 or 12 years before taking formal diksa.

All the best.

Ysvt.

Gauranga!

Ps- The commander-in-chief will send his man. An officer in Lord Chaitanya's army. Hopefully one of many!

The Officer Ki Jaya!
:o)

Also;

In this verse Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī advises the devotee to be 'INTELLIGENT enough to distinguish between the kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī and uttama-adhikārī. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform......A neophyte Vaiṣṇava or a Vaiṣṇava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and IT SHOULD BE UNDERSTOOD that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his INSUFFICIENT GUIDANCE.... Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.

{NOI verse 5 (purport)}

Thanks for all the input. After reading all the above comments carefully I've made my decision. I'm becoming a Jehovah's Witness. (just kidding).
I think my best course of action at this point is to continue studying Srila Prabhupada's books and chanting Hare Krishna. I ordered japa beads in the mail a few months ago and have been chanting six rounds every morning. It takes me about an hour. Does that sound about right? It almost seems like the first round or two is needed to "warm up" because my mind is all over the place -- and then by the third round I usually get into a flow -- a sort of meditation -- the mental static begins to fade and I start to hear the vibrations more clearly. It's an amazing process. As for the principles -- I became a strict vegetarian in my early teens, I don't get high (but I do drink coffee) and I've been celibate for the past five years. It would be nice to get a taste of what it's like to take part in a Sankirtana party or to be living with a group of devotees in a temple with deity worship and daily classes, kirtans and artiks (sp?). So all in all I think it's best that I wait for some time until I really feel I'm ready to move into some temple. Maybe I'll save up and go to India first -- to Vrindaban, Mayapura and Jagannatha Puri. Yeah -- I'll wait until I'm ready for ISKCON or ISKCON is ready for me .. and depend on my inner guide (intuition, gut, Supersoul) to know when that time will come.

> but you should still look to Bhagavad-gita for clues: out of some 700 verses only a handful relate to the need for a guru.

It's true only a handful of Gita verses relate to guru, but I think it is very significant that the question of identifying a liberated soul is one of the questions that Arjuna asks twice in the Gita - How do I tell who is a person who has reached liberation? (i.e. "What are the symptoms of one whose consciousness is thus merged in transcendence? How does he speak, and what is his language? How does he sit, and how does he walk?" 2.54 and, "By which symptoms is one known who is transcendental to these three modes? What is his behavior?," 14.21.) Remember when your mother used to say, "Do I have to tell you twice?' then you knew she meant for you to listen real good? Here Krishna has told us twice how to tell a person who has reached the highest platform. Whether we are fortunate enough to meet such a person is another story but at least we know what to be on the lookout for.

One does not need to recognise themselves becoming liberated. The dawning of liberated consciousness is a self-evident answer in itself. I can't follow where u going with that one Kula prabhu. Could u clarify please. I would like to understand more this essential topic.

Also;

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-10/editorials5793.htm

When Prabhupada was asked if Gurvastakam verses apply to him, he said it was a personal prayer of Visvanatha Cakravarti to his own guru. Don't be impersonal, as if all prayers to a guru apply to all the gurus.

Kula-pavana:

[quote]

Nrsingha d:

One does not need to recognise themselves becoming liberated. The dawning of liberated consciousness is a self-evident answer in itself. I can't follow where u going with that one Kula prabhu. Could u clarify please. I would like to understand more this essential topic.

If you read just the verses preceding BG 2.54 and 14.21 it is very clear that Arjuna is asking about being able to recognize his own progress on the path towards liberation. These verses have nothing to do with him looking for a realized guru. Such interpretation is patently absurd, especially since his guru is Lord Krishna standing in front of him.[/quote]

Arjuna was asking on behalf of us the conditioned souls,was he not?
Ysvt.

Nrsingha d:

Arjuna was asking on behalf of us the conditioned souls,was he not?
Ysvt.

Yes he was. But the question still is about our own progress on the path of liberation. Remember all those people in Iskcon who thought themselves liberated? They missed both the question and the answer.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada! Hare Krishna. Please accept my humble obeisances.

It is so much nicer when someone who doesn't understand an instruction or a point either simply ignores it and involves himself in things he can understand, or admits he doesn't understand and asks for clarification.

To assume that one's inability to understand a thing automatically means the other is mistaken, is not going to benefit anyone. (Example: Think of a first-grader, whose sukriti is that he knows 2 plus 2 equals 4. If that first grader publicly insults a tenth-grader (who already knows 2 plus 2 equals 4) but now has sukriti to claim that A plus B equals C, the first-grader is perpetuating ignorance for himself and annoying the upper-grade group.) Accusing others of misbehavior, even though done in a joking mood, is not much appreciated by those who take pariprashnena seriously.

Nrsingha d is right on the point when he says, "In this verse Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī advises the devotee to be 'INTELLIGENT enough to distinguish between the kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī and uttama-adhikārī. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform." Srila Prabhupada said that 'every man thinks others think like he does', so this is not easy, but in our society it should be attempted, if we are to advance.

Sri Krishna explains in Srimad Bhagavad Gita As It Is, that "As they surrender, I reward accordingly." Thus it is understood that there are different levels and He deals with each of us on our own level. In ISKCON it is assumed that the older devotees are the most advanced. But many of the newer devotees are more advanced--they are older devotees reborn in new bodies, in more favorable circumstances. What sukriti they earned in the past life is still with them. Srila Prabhupada said the third generation will be the real devotees. That means the children of the children of the first generation and some of those coming from outside the society in the third generation. Our "wonderful, unique, transcendental institution" accomidates all levels of advancement, like a school has from kindergarten up to University level students. Educational Instutution is one, all levels are important, all are valuable, so many levels exist within it and Sri Krishna gives each person what they need and deserves within that institution. The society is currently being run by first generation new men whose ideology and behaviors are below deenas, Nrsimgha d and Hasama's level, so they should respect it for what it is, while crying and praying for the post-graduate Teacher to come to them.

Many years ago one sadhu arrived at Sri Sri Krishna Balaram Mandir in Sri Vrindaban Dhama. He was penniless, he wore only one cloth. He asked the devotees if he could meet Srila Prabhupada but was denied. Later he managed to meet Srila Prabhupada in his room, who immediately recognized him as a liberated soul and pure devotee, and the sadhu recognized and honored Srila Prabhupada as his Sri Guru, eternal spiritual master. Srila Prabhupada quoted the following verse at the time of giving sannyasa to that devotee, “The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: One who is unattached to the fruits of his work and who works as he is obligated, is in the renounced order of life, and he is the true mystic, not he who lights no fire and performs no duty.” He uttered this verse and said, “He is a real sannyasi” and then gave him the sannyasa mantra and danda. Shortly thereafter, many sannyasis and GBC members started complaining, “How has he taken sannyasa? He is a new man!” Then Srila Prabhupada told them, “He is a devotee from his birth - you are new men!”

Though Srila Prabhupada himself gave his transcendentally perfect verdict about the qualification of this sadhu, ISKCON did not accept or understand the difference between his sukriti and their own--they did not allow him to advise them and caused him trouble in his service. Later, they attempted to kick him out of ISKCON, at which time he entered into a divine trance of devotional samadhi and departed back to the Spiritual World.

PS This material world is blazing fire and our head is on fire. There should be urgency to come into contact with Sri Guru.

> These verses have nothing to do with him looking for a realized guru.

I think these verses have immense value in the search for a self-realised guru. How can one apply, "Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master." (NOI verse 5 purport) without knowing the symptoms described in BG 2.54 and 14.21? To ignore or discount these verses in one's search for a self-realised guru would simply be folly.

maah! you are so way off subject look at the question in this thread and stop smoking banana leaves, it was a simple question, no need to give him an ecstasy crew answer.

I like your sense of humor Hashama, a few others around here could do with a dose of that...LMHO!

maah - at which time he entered into a divine trance of devotional samadhi and departed back to the Spiritual World.

Its His Divine Grace Om Vishnupada Sri Srimad Gaura Govinda Swami Maharaj, isn't it .
Now your story is complete.

manasi_seva:

Yes good point Kula-pavana it is not so much the institution you belong to, but what depth of bhakti you reach, the goal is not to become institution conscious but Krishna Conscious.

yes but it does matter whu u r accepting as Acarya. Stick with the Founder-Acarya and his most sincere sisyas untill he sends another of his Officers.

This Is The Ascendency!

I think I'm understanding more about the difference between a siksha and diksha guru. I assume that by reading Srila Prabhupada's books and learning about Krishna from His writings (and I even ordered some tapes of his classes and with him leading kirtans and singing bhajans) that I am already, in some way, a siksha disciple of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada???!!!?? As far as diksha goes -- the formal acceptance of and the getting initiated by someone -- well, what's really the rush? I mean --- I am eternal, aren't I? I read that Srila Prabhupada didn't get initiated until years after he first met his spiritual master and he (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur) was right there present and alive in the traditional sense. I hope I'm on the right track. It feels like I am because I feel very strongly the presence of Srila Prabhupada when I'm reading his books and also his letters to disciples and best of all -- the transcribed tapes of all his classes and lectures. I like those especially because they are in their raw form without any editing. Even better than that is listening to a tape of Srila Prabhupada speaking and finding the transcript of that talk and following along reading while hearing. I guess that's the closest I'll ever get to actually sitting in some temple room and hearing him.

It sure would be nice though to be part of a community of like-minded people, go out chanting on the streets and turning other people on to Krishna consciousness. Someday ..... someday ......

All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Hare Krishna. Please accept my humble obeisances.

"It feels like I am because I feel very strongly the presence of Srila Prabhupada when I'm reading his books and also his letters to disciples and best of all -- the transcribed tapes of all his classes and lectures. I like those especially because they are in their raw form without any editing. Even better than that is listening to a tape of Srila Prabhupada speaking and finding the transcript of that talk and following along reading while hearing. I guess that's the closest I'll ever get to actually sitting in some temple room and hearing him."

This devotional attitude and practice will attract Him to reveal Himself to you more and more from within your heart and also to appear before you externally in His new, Divine form. See "Association takes place in the mind." in the post "What constitutes being a member of ISKCON?"

"I guess that's the closest I'll ever get to actually sitting in some temple room and hearing him."

You will be able to sit in front of Sri Guru Acarya and hear from him, but the concept is impossible for those who think he is dead and gone and who have filled His role as eternal spiritual master (who is expert at assisting the gopies) with unqualified persons. A crude, contrmporary example of succession with same function, but different features, is that of the Phantom. "When he died, his son took over the role of the Phantom, and such the mantle would be passed down to new generations, leaving people to give the mysterious figure nick-names such as "The Man Who Cannot Die",.. and "The Ghost Who Walks", believing him to be immortal."

Prabhu, many devotees work in the world, live at home and concentrate on their hearing and bhajan, maintain a home altar, visit the Temple, support the Temple finantially or otherwise, attend the festivals and Harinam programs, respect and make friendships with devotees. How to associate is described here. "The devotee on the intermediate level can distinguish between the different types of devotees.
Thus, as stated in the above Bhagavatam verse, he relates to them in the proper way so as to advance in sadhana-bhakti. Toward less advanced devotees he should show compassion; toward his equals he should show friendship; and to superior devotees he should offer all respect and services and hear their instructions submissively. He avoids the nondevotees."

Hare Krishna

All, at this forum we're into a practice that goes beyond liberation in monistic nirvisesa Brahman. On that level guru and disciple interact in a qualitatively different way than sitting next to each other, experiencing their Brahmanness. If you're interested, chek it out here. Hari Hari

Another very important consideration is :Are you ready to follow 4 regulative principles for the rest of life?Most that were thinking it to be easy failed miserably.Here is an idea.Test yourself for at least 10 years to see if you are ready to follow 4 regs sincerely,chant at least 16 rounds daily and ready all of the Srila Prabhupada's books at least 3 times.

After you have done that you will never be cheated like most of us were.You will be given the eyes to see who is who.You will not become cheap disciple of some cheap guru and end up broken and dejected.

After all,this is the example that Srila Prabhupada set himself.He waited for 11 years.So can you.What's the rush anyway?

and how may someone go beyond brahman? :)

thankyou for your response veda :) i will read upadesamrta. Thankyou very much :) peace and love xo

Yes. The author is Rupa Gosvami.

Krsna bhakti life after life - the ideal of pure Vaishnavas - was prominently taught by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in His Siksastaka. Less known fact is that the same desire, beyond impersonal moksa, was proclaimed by Adi Sankaracarya in his Sri Krsnastaka (9):

yadA tadA yathA tathA tathaiva kRSNasatkathA |
mayA sadaiva gIyatAM tathA kRpA vidhIyatAM |
pramANikASTakadvayaM japatyadhItya yaH pumAna |
bhavetsa nandanandane bhave bhave subhaktimAna ||

O Lord Krishna! Please bless me so that I may sing your glories and pastimes, regardless of the position I am in. Anyone who studies or recites these two authoritative ashtakas will be blessed with devotion to Krishna in every rebirth. (Adi Sankaracarya: Sri Krsnastaka 9)

the whole text: http://www.hindunet.org/stotras/itx/krishna8.txt

Janmastami katha file:

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/library/KrsnaJanmastami.zip

Happy Janmastami to everyone!

You're welcome. These three books by Srila Prabhupada are the right ones to continue with after reading his translation of Upadesamrta. He also translated Isa Upanisad, one of the major Upanisads. There're also 14 Upanisads sometimes cetegorized as Vaisnava: Gopalatapani, Krsna, Narayana, Mahanarayana, Vasudeva, Nrsimhatapani, Kalisantarana (explanation of Hare Krsna mantra), etc. They're found online at celextel.org etc. Happy reading.

Jay Sri Krsna Janmastami!

Myself i have faith in iskcon and gaudiya matha since we are part of a siksa line where diksa is important ,though not the essential all consuming facet of spiritual life many suggest!
Bhaktivinoda takura suggests ''diksa-guru-krpa kori mantra-upadesa,koriyadekham krishna tattva nirdesa,siksa-guru-brnda krpa koriya apar.sadhaka sikhan sadaher anga-sar...'', The initiating spiritual mastere(diksa-guru) shows his causeless mercy by giving the disciples instructions in chanting the mantra.By so doing,he pionts his disciples in the direction of the truths pertaining to the supreme lord.... ,Sri Krishna.
I consider the numerous instructing spiritual masters(siksa-guru) to be more important,for they show more mercy by training the sadakhas in all the essential aspects of sadahana bhakti........Kalyana--kalpataru....bhaktivinoda takura...