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Social: How do we deal with the management machine?iskcon or gaudiya !

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthormanasi_seva
    • CommentTimeFeb 28th 2010 edited
     
    Unfortunately in any institution including Iskcon, its always the institution that is placed before the individual and quite often the local authorities wield the power in such a way that they feel you must totally surrender to them else you are in total Maya. They may have the position to manage because they are the most qualified in a managerial sense, but not always, sometimes they have the position because of their years of service or because of friends in high places and quite often they do not have the qualifications or the personality to lead a group of people.

    Cultural differences are important because it is very deep conditioning, westerners tend to put on their hob nail boots and stomp over everything, its the western way to upset and confront everything because we are mostly concerned only with our own individual cause, we are more impersonal and rarely do we care what others think about ourselves and rarely does it give us cause for concern unless we stand to lose something by it. Westerners are impatient, brutal, intolerant, selfish, self righteous, bigots and full of hypocrisy. However all that said Westerners are great pioneers, imaginative, creative and can be dogmatic in their pursuit of excellence.

    Ancient cultures are more sensitive to other people and care more about what others think, they are alot more humble, willing to serve and help and they understand that to sacrifice ones own needs is far more noble. They are more family and group orientated and more into sharing their happiness and prefer to spend time with others. Even Srila Prabhupada said to his western devotees be-careful how you handle Indians, they are very sensitive and if you offend them they will never forget this and it is often impossible to repair the relationship.

    Unfortunately the management of any institution rarely takes into account the culture from which a devotee has come from, as we all know our early childhood conditioning will continue to affect us for our whole lives, this doesn't mean we cannot change or work around our differences but don't expect any wisdom from management, usually they have a saying "Our way or the highway"

    I saw so many nice devotee's kicked out of Iskcon because of local authorities, either they were deemed as a threat to the local authority or they simply didn't like them. If you wish to stay in their local zone you have no choice but to bow down to that authority, yes you can be creative and suggest a different type of service or appeal to their higher intellect but at the end of the day, its in their power not yours to decide. Few local leaders display the qualities that would make me want to surrender to them and probably explains why I don't see them making many new devotees hardly any, in the last 15-20 years. India seems to be quite a bit different because you have more Indians dealing with Indians.
    Thankful People: sg, Hashama
  2.  
    sri_govinda_das:My wife said to me ,since she is samoan-maori descent that you white people are brutal....''If you can't get your way ,just slice slice slice...just destroy us soft hearted devotees!Why do you think there are very few ''whanau''[maori for people of the local soil...tanga tu whenua],within iskcon after 40 odd years in New Zealand,she commented?She continued to answer in her particular shrill....Because its a white person thing ...a Caucasian ...impersonal thing!We give you our service...we give you our hearts and you shit on us!You have no real love just business.....take,take ,take..... callous eat us alive if we do not agree...is it not...she demanded!
    Your wife is absolutely right. What to do about it? Start your own temple with some good LOCAL people, and NEVER, EVER let outsiders touch it! Don't incorporate with Iskcon, start your own non-profit organization and keep everything above board. The GBC types and their minions will always walk all over you IF YOU LET THEM. I was a manager all my life and Iskcon has the worst management I have ever seen. The structure is antiquated, inefficient, lacking in checks and balances, and with very little accountability. And te people in it are mostly unqualified, both technically and morally to be the leaders.
    Thankful People: sg
    • CommentAuthordeena
    • CommentTimeMar 1st 2010
     
    I've done quite a bit of research in this area, specifically through the GBC resolutions and ISKCON Managment Guidelines etc. My conclusion is that there are many excellent and practical suggestions to address all the problems management generally has and to establish an accountable management system. But unfortunately the GBC's don't ensure they are being implemented, or many devotees don't know about them, or have never bothered to read them, or having read them consider them impractical or threatening because they would make the management accountable.
    • CommentAuthorKula-pavana
    • CommentTimeMar 1st 2010 edited
     
    deena:I've done quite a bit of research in this area, specifically through the GBC resolutions and ISKCON Managment Guidelines etc. My conclusion is that there are many excellent and practical suggestions to address all the problems management generally has and to establish an accountable management system. But unfortunately the GBC's don't ensure they are being implemented, or many devotees don't know about them, or have never bothered to read them, or having read them consider them impractical or threatening because they would make the management accountable.
    If the GBCs don't follow their own guidelines, what do you expect? How many of them present financial accounts for example? From what I know, just a small minority, and these accounts are sketchy at best, and not independently verified. Iskcon is pretty much their private plantation. One of the worst things management wise, was making these guys GBC's for life. That destroyed any hope for accountability from these club members.
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeMar 1st 2010
     
    In Buddhism, they taught us two very important things:

    1. As aging and death are rolling in on us, what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, skillful deeds, meritorious deeds?
    (From the sutta on the simile of the mountains - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn03/sn03.025.than.html. It's worth reading, the language is very descriptive.)

    2. A practitioner should think: "Even if others do not train themselves, I will train myself. Even if others do not work toward the supreme goal, I will work toward the supreme goal." - This can be extended in more detail - e.g. "Even if others do not keep their promises, I will keep my promises" etc.


    I think the same spirit applies here.
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeMar 1st 2010
     
    Yes. 'The only person who can discourage me is myself.' (actually my material conditioning)
  7.  
    True Veda, but who is that advanced to see it that way at all times?
    • CommentAuthormanasi_seva
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2010 edited
     
    VEDA:Yes. 'The only person who can discourage me is myself.' (actually my material conditioning)

    Absolutely agree with this statement, one does not have to be discouraged one only has to get creative and broad minded. This is exactly what is happening and people are generally giving Iskcon a miss and going direct to Srila Prabhupada's books and then steering their own course or seeking association/guidance at other Gaudiya Vaisnava establishments. Its actually quite common these days. While Iskcon waves it finger at all these people that are either no longer in Iskcon or never joined them in the first place they never stop to ask the question why? They never consider the fact that the leaders and GBC members sit in their ivory towers passing down the rules that rarely apply to themselves and quite often don't apply to regional authorities either.

    I left Iskcon behind many many years ago and I have only one regret, I should have done it a lot sooner! One must also be aware that it is not just an Iskcon only issue, it is generally the same in all religious/spiritual organisations and even more so where it is a young institution and the founder has passed on.

    In the end they cater for the Institution and they are more concerned about the Institutions survival than they are about your spiritual life. You are just an expendable asset, to be used up in the process.

    Anyone who is really serious about their spiritual life will not get too entangled with any institution, they are far too limiting. I don't care what they say, Srila Prabhupada lives in his instructions and books not in the concrete or politics of some institution.

    • CommentAuthormanasi_seva
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2010 edited
     
    Yes SGD, I don't disagree with what you say in theory, I know all of the sales pitches *smiles*. But all institutions have their institutional problems, if you can work with them fine, but ultimately even those who are fully willing to submit to the institution will become frustrated by its impersonal dealings with the rank and file, as you yourself have stated in your opening of this question.

    Unfortunately Srila Prabhupada is no longer guiding the institution, we know this by the issues that have taken place, so now its up to his devotees that are left behind. I just hope the leaders of Iskcon find the wisdom to treat the rank and file devotees with love and respect and show a great example that will enthuse others to follow.

    Don't misunderstand me I am not totally Anti-Iskcon, I just feel the leaders have to become more open and transparent in their dealings and they need to fully submit themselves to the rules they create. The GBC also must travel their zones and have contact with the rank and file and listen to what is happening on a grass roots level, they need to venture out of their ivory towers (not just physically but actually listen to others) Then and only then will the obvious hypocrisy subside and true devotion can have its place. However when you think about it the GBC will never resort to listening to the rank and file, because they think they are fully self realized and orders are passed down the chain, they are never passed up the chain, so Iskcon seems to have inbuilt failure mechanisms, but hope springs eternal!

    By the way I am not going to get caught up in statements that you make like below as this is getting off topic:

    >>even understanding the several practical problems with the ISKCON machine itself, why would you choose to take shelter anywhere else!

    Many thousands of devotees do take shelter in other places, they have the right and free will to do it, enough said on that point.
  10.  
    Dear Sri Govinda Prabhu,

    In your post that opens this topic, you complain that the Caucasian devotees have taken the approach, "'If you can't get your way ,just slice slice slice...just destroy us soft hearted devotees." How ironic, then, that some would say your posts about Narayana Maharaja and others are a perfect example of the "slice" approach, antithetical to the soft-hearted approach of a devotee.

    As a result, I humbly suggest that you thoroughly investigate the ritvik philosophy, as well as the philosophy of at least one of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers (probably not Narayana Maharaja, given your earlier comments).

    Why? Because when I look at your harsh and ill-informed posts in some other threads on this forum, I begin to understand why your local temple leaders may be trying to push you out. The time is likely to come, sooner rather than later, when you will be held accountable for the results of your "preaching" and your ISKCON authorities will determine that you are more of a liability than an asset.

    What will you do then, when you are banned from ISKCON association? Will you abandon the entire philosophy and go back to Maori tribal beliefs? Or will you persevere with Krishna consciousness? There are some very nice Vaishnavas outside of ISKCON who hold Srila Prabhupada in the highest esteem -- you might investigate the mission of Sripad Bhaktivaibhava Puri Maharaja, or of Sripad Bhaktisundar Govinda Maharaja. Or if you are determined to "slice" all of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers the way ISKCON slices you, there remain the ritviks. who at least hold up their understanding of Srila Prabhupada as the ideal for all.

    So, that's my advice about how Sri Govinda Prabhu should deal with the management machine. If you will not introspect and see that you are alienating other devotees even more aggressively than your local managers are alienating you, then the best thing you could be doing is looking for the sangha you will need to keep up your good association after ISKCON inevitably bans you.
    Thankful People: Hashama
  11.  
    sri_govinda_das:760618rc.tor Conversations Prabhupada: Daily night. And he was shocked. ONE OF MY GAUDIYA MATHA GODBROTHERS, BIG, HE BECAME THE HEAD OF THIS BHAG BAZAAR GAUDIYA MATHA. So his wife was debauched, and she was bringing new paramour, and the child protested. Pusta Krsna: New? Prabhupada: Paramour. And the boy, he was ten years or twelve years old, he could understand: “Who is this man?” So he protested and said, “I shall tell all these things to my father.” And he was killed. Pusta Krsna: The boy was killed? Prabhupada: By the mother. Hari-sauri: She murdered him? Prabhupada: Yes. Killed means given poison. And the father, that is, my Godbrother, seeing this, he also took poison. This is the end of Gaudiya Matha scandal. He was also one of the trustees. This Tirtha Maharaja was a trustee, and another Godbrother and this man. In the beginning, they were made trustees. In the beginning, Prabhupada was to undergo surgical operation. So he was a little nervous, that “I may die.” So he made a scrap paper, that “In case I die, these three disciples will be trustees of the Gaudiya Matha Institute.” That’s all. So this Kunja Babu kept this. There are many long histories. SO ONE OF THE SO-CALLED TRUSTEES WAS THIS VASUDEVA. So he died, his end was like this. Pusta Krsna: His son was killed, isn’t it? Prabhupada: His wife was a regular prostitute, and she killed her child, and on this shock, he took poison and died. Pusta Krsna: He killed himself, oh. Prabhupada: Naturally, he became shocked, that “This is my family life–the wife is prostitute and son is killed. What is the value of my life?” This was his spiritual realization. Just see. (laughs) AND HE WAS MADE THE CHIEF, AND ONE OF THE SUPPORTER WAS SRIDHARA MAHARAJA. Pusta Krsna: Vasudeva Sridhara? Prabhupada: No, no. He was made chief. Guru Maharaja did not make him chief. But after his passing away, some of our Godbrothers voted him chief. Pusta Krsna: Am I mis…? You had told me once, I’m not certain. Maybe I made a mistake. YOU SAID THAT VASUDEVA, IT WAS KNOWN FACT THAT HE WAS HOMOSEX? Prabhupada: Yes. Pusta Krsna: Vasudeva. Prabhupada: HE WAS HOMOSEX AND SEX, EVERYTHING.
    The only problem is... it never heppened like that. This story is not based on historical facts. Read more here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/18502294/Ananta-Vasudeva
    • CommentAuthormanasi_seva
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2010 edited
     
    Just another example of SGD posting on topics he knows nothing about, his research stops at the point that he gets ammunition to support his blasphemy.

    Thank you Kula Pavana for posting a link to this information. It just goes to show that these issues should be left alone they happened along time ago and the accounts of history vary dramatically. By engaging in debates on these topics one has to speculate and potentially cause great harm to ones spiritual life due to Vaisnava Aparadha. Many of these devotees mentioned are eternal associates of BSST.
    •  
      CommentAuthorHashama
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2010 edited
     
    sgd doesn't just use the "slice slice slice" approach ..... another favorite weapon of his seems to be the "cut cut cut / paste paste paste" strategy.
    •  
      CommentAuthorHashama
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2010 edited
     
    Why do I get the feeling that this yamal_arjuna_das is none other than Mr. sri_govinda_das reincarnated? I would bet anything that we're hearing from either a proxy, alter ego, nom de plume, pseudonym, or perhaps "son of ......" Definitely a sequel ... complete with the underscores in the name, the spellings and what really gives it away --- referring to "teams." Oh yeah -- no doubt about it -- he's baaaaack!!
    Thankful People: manasi_seva
  15.  
    Yes its amazing isn't it yamala_arjuna_das is a new devotee his account was created 2 hours ago and he immediately tunes into the exact same posts that SGD was posting into and takes exception with the same people SGD did...LMHO...and as Hashama says same bad punctuation, bad spelling etc. Very convincing SGD!

    100% yamala_arjuna_das = Sri_Govinda_Das

    Tell your story walking SGD...bye!
  16.  
    yamala_arjuna_das:...i think you offend our ever wellwisher his grace Srila bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada or at least minimise his writings or his veiws with your last correspondence manasi seva prabhu,how is using my siksa guru bir krishna das goswami to falsely try and prove Srila Prabhupadas personal veiws to be mistaken......
    No need to attack Manasi Seva Prabhu, he actually showed great tact and restraint in his comment. The fault is all mine... ------------ I have spent a great deal of time researching the Ananta Vasudeva story Srila Prabhupada told his disciples. Based on all available accounts from inside and outside Gaudiya Matha, the story SP told is - at best - simply based on wild gossip, and at worst (and most likely) - based on a deliberate attempt to smear Ananta Vasudeva by his godbrothers loyal to Gaudiya Matha. These guys fought very fierce battles among themselves back then... ------------------- I have no reason to believe that it was SP who invented this story, but there is no doubt in my mind that this story is completely FALSE. The only true part in it is that AV's son died early... ------------ Some modern Gaudiya devotees think that it is OK to fabricate a lie IF it's purpose is to 'serve Krsna'. Of course they are the ones who determine what 'serves Krsna' at that particular moment. Thus in the name of serving Krsna or serving His mission LIES are invented and spread around on purpose... Have you seen it done in Iskcon? In the last 30 years I have seen it done many times... Still, this was not something unique to Iskcon, because it was done in the past as well.

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