On renunciation, family life and philosophy

diyourself

I have a real case that i would like to put before the respected vaishnavas here: There is a girl being very serious about spiritual life but trending on the impersonal way. Her tendencies urge her to marry and have children but the impersonal philosophy tells her that its all or nothing. If she marries she will be lost in maya, but she is not mature to renounce. Its about to create havoc because she is on that age that she has to take a decision. What counseling or preaching you would recommend?

ccd

Since she can not take to formal renunciation in ISKCON, I would suggest to wait, say for a year, and review the situation then (possibly with a help of a good astrologer or a member of her immediate family;-)

deena

> If she marries she will be lost in maya, but she is not mature to renounce

Are the only options you are see for this girl marriage in maya, or a false renunciation? A sense gratifier or a hypocrite? Are there no other options for her?
(btw, this made me laugh. It immediately reminded me of many brahmacaris I've known...including myself...a little impersonal, too immature to renounce and ready to jump into sense gratifying marriage...)

> Her tendencies urge her to marry

Therefore I would encourage her to marry. It's the natural position for 99% of human beings. If she really is very serious about spiritual life as you say and has the character for it, I would encourage her to go to India (Vrindavan or Mayapur) for a few months before she gets married and do some serious sadhana, study, and reflection on the direction she wants her life to take. After all, it's her decision in the end and the best we can do is to assist her make an informed decision. If she wants to spend time in Vrindavan, I can give you the contact of a senior devotee who is great for such type of people to talk to.

Kula-pavana

diyourself:
There is a girl being very serious about spiritual life but trending on the impersonal way. Her tendencies urge her to marry and have children but the impersonal philosophy tells her that its all or nothing. If she marries she will be lost in maya, but she is not mature to renounce. Its about to create havoc because she is on that age that she has to take a decision. What counseling or preaching you would recommend?

Spiritual life is a very long distance race - it is not 100 meters dash. If she is sincere, family life will actually be a tremendous help in her journey. And if it takes a long time... well... it ALWAYS takes a long time...

manasi_seva

Most of the greatest Acharya's came through the married or Grhasta Ashram including Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Srila Prabhupada, Prema or love of God has never been dependant on any Ashram. One can achieve the highest stages of devotion in any and all stages of human life.

Brahmachari or Brahmachirini the student stage is a very important stage because it allows one to be free of most mundane responsibilities and it allows one to focus on study, sadhana, parikram to the holy places, extensive association with sadhus. Once a person gets married much of your free time is taken away and is spent on maintaining married life (children, responsibilities, money, food, housing etc etc). So it is wise to hold off as long as one can so you can maximise the student life and build a solid devotional base.

If one does not have a strong solid devotional base or devotional creeper then they will have trouble in any ashram and maya will have her play with them. When someone says its all or nothing and is saying that marriage is maya means they have still not understood the Gaudiya Vaisnava philosopy. Maya is not just in the Grhasta Ashram! Maya is where you take her. Krishna Consciousness is a position of the heart, it is love and devotion and it is measured in your attachment for Radha and Krishna it is not about changing your cloth or Ashram they are actually two separate things.

From what I can hear this person needs another few years in the student stage to consolidate their learning and to fully realise the goal of Krishna Consciousness, then at that point they can choose the Ashram that will best support their tendencies and nature and for most us 99.999% of us that means married life. If they cannot hold off and must get married then they need to learn that Grhasta or married life is no impediment to spiritual life as long as they remain focused on their Krishna Consciousness.

Hashama

What is mine to renounce? If nothing is mine (nirmama) then where is there question of renouncing? Everything belongs to Krishna -- always did and always will -- including me (.... and when you have thus learned the truth you will know that all beings are My parts and parcels, they are within Me and they are Mine.")

manasi_seva

Very true Hashama but that is a realised position, after life times of attachments to the things that do not belong to us, it takes time to renounce the attachments.

The false ego identifies this is "I" and this is "Mine" and the false ego is one of the hardest nuts to crack.

diyourself

thank you all for your insights. The only thing I told her so far is you can find realized souls with ten sons and I put the example of Bhaktivinoda Thakur, but again she is not so much into our tradition, she actually belongs to Sivananda ashram although appreciating other tendencies. So far I gathered as an argument to help her predicament:

1. that brahmacari is normally a stage of life followed by married and then complete renunciation
2. she should amass as much of that in her life before jumping into married life
3. Maya is not just in the grhasta ashram, you could be in maya being a perfect renounced

VEDA

> you could be in maya being a perfect renounced

When one is perfectly renounced, he renounced Maya as well. You probably mean that one can be in maya in every asram.

Kula-pavana

In my experience, many so called renunciates are actually very attached to the respect they get from others (position) and their false egos are very strong. Family life is good for humility and grinds down our false ego. But Advaitins are often not interested in such values.

diyourself

VEDA:
> you could be in maya being a perfect renounced

When one is perfectly renounced, he renounced Maya as well. You probably mean that one can be in maya in every asram.

I meant perfectly following the rules and regulations externally but internally still trapped by subtle enjoyment like the respect etc that comes from the masses or feeling superior for example.

deena

> I meant perfectly following the rules and regulations externally but internally still trapped by subtle enjoyment

Gita 3.6-7: "One who restrains the senses of action but whose mind dwells on sense objects certainly deludes himself and is called a pretender. On the other hand, if a sincere person tries to control the active senses by the mind and begins karma-yoga [in Kṛṣṇa consciousness] without attachment, he is by far superior."

In this matter the lady in question should marry a spiritually minded person who can assist her in her journey. Do not make the mistake of Joining any Ashrams in India Coming alone as all are exploitation centres. Better to be in one's own position and fight maya as Sri Chaitanya says

Anirudh Das

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