If I was that close relative, it may hurt me a little to realize the person I was building faith in was bogus, but down the track I would thank you for it. Considering they are about to embark on a journey for the truth it would help them a whole lot if you gave it to them, sooner than later.

If on the other hand I was that relative and later on my world came crumbling down because I found out the truth that my guru was bogus, that would hurt. But to also find out that you my close relative held back the truth from me, I would start to think I couldn't trust anyone in this world.

Simply provide them with all the information and let them decide, if they still go ahead at least they do so having been warned.

One is prone to judge the individuals nature first,is he a sincere devotee ?After all radhanatha swami is humbly carrying on his personal service to his own guru.Such wonderful spirit to give shelter and instruct neophytes is simply sublime.Now there are literally dozens of sincere devotees carrying on the Srila Prabhupada legacy as initiating guru's inside iskcon !Which is what all genuine followers are meant for eventually.Portnoys advice seems pertinent,but eventually this is a very personal decision....between temple authorities and the devotee and his choice of guru.Obviously you are from ''left feild'' when you refer to ritvic's as a positive alternative.My siksa guru tamala krishna goswami initiated the letter which several followers have used to deviate a few followers of iskcon .and set up this apa -sampradaya ....anti gaudiya matha society,which they refer to as ritvics.....!However if you want to be cheated....krishna is so willing to arrange to give us any nonsense except pure devotional service so such deviants simply don't bother him ......with their personal failings and spiritual perversions.Hopefully something of what i have said is of some use kes.....hare krishna.

Sri Govinda Das. That does not explain the swami sleeping with little girls.

Nrsingha d. What are you talking about? So you have no objection to what mung had said and his links? Who is accusing who and about what?

I had a friend who has a son, was aspiring a few years ago. So before allowing son to accept this guru there was a talk: "Are you sure, are you absolutely sure? Do you know you can not change after initiation?" I think there should be some talk like that with everyone. And definitely gurus should not be promoted, advertised or pushed in your face, and so no, you should not 'recommend' a guru, regardless of the status. It is disciples' and disciples' alone burden to make the choice.

Read clarification from GBCs:
http://iskcongurus.wordpress.com/links/radhanatha-swami/

Hare Krishna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Please accept my humble obeisances.

There are negative effects on the guru for accepting an unqualified disciple and there are also negative effects on the disciple for taking an unqualified guru. Then, due to those malific effects, when the self-effulgent Acarya manifests again, neither are in a position to take advantage of Him and they lose out. Spend the dark night chanting and waiting for the rising sun, don't accept the glow-fly or lantern as Sun. Guru is to be accepted as good as God. That means we must pray and wait for the One who is as good as God--not accept any unqualified person and make mental adjustments that he is as good as God because we have chosen him. Not that, eventually seeing the low condition of the guru we have chosen, we degrade the position of guru to mean just a teacher. Persons who have done this even consider Srila Prabhupada an ordinary guru who became self-realized by the mercy of His Guru, on the level with other India-born gurus. These attitudes bring about Sri Guru Vaisnava Aparada which is highly counter-productive to our real good.

Even if we accept and later abandon such an unqualified guru, there will still be subtle negative effects. It is something like breaking the tie of marriage with divorce..still there are debts, children, family, possessions, identities (individually, jointly and socially), memories, and other results of karrma accrued jointly.

By following Srila Prabhupada's instructions and reading His unchanged books we will become purified and attract His divine guidance in our lives. By praying and crying for His real representative, we will get the Sri Guru who can give us Sri Krishna. Sriman Mahaprabhu's movement is for those who are begging for Sri Krishna, so if a guru is not in possession of Sri Krishna, we had better not get involved with him.

The Real Nature of the Function of Guru

"Individual souls are under the direction of Nityananda. They receive their service of Shri Gaurasundara, i.e., of Krishna, at His hands. Nityananda is not a jiva. He is Divinity. He is the ultimate source of the jiva. The jiva is a potency of Nityananda. No jiva can be the medium of the service of the Absolute to another jiva. The Absolute alone may communicate His service to the separable constituents of Himself. This is the real nature of the function of the guru.” Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur

Those who have accepted bhogus gurus are infected with apasiddhanta. "If a man once takes the bad association of counterfeit Vaisnavas or non-Vaisnavas, he will never follow any beneficial instructions. He will only learn hypocrisy." Babaji Maharaja, Two Beyond Duality

"As a result of an offense to the Holy Name or an offense in worshipping the Deity one will acheive three results: dharma (mundane piety), artha (material opulence), and kama (sense pleasure). These are actually misfortunes for the living entity. Our guru, Lord Nityananda, cheats pseudo-devotees by supplying their material wants but depriving them of love of God." Babaji Maharaja, Two Beyond Duality

Anyone who was married is not perfect (according to the acaryas)... (now what to speak of one who was not married;0)

actual marriage is only for the Madhyamas.(according to the acaryas). Internalised and immediate.

Hare Krishna! All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Please accept my humble obeisances.

Lord Caitanya's pure movement exists separately from the Kali yuga as the pure soul exists separately from the body. Or as the pure holy dhama exists separately from the world, although appearing in it. By the mercy of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, hope has arrived in the form of "Srila Prabhupada Lilamrta As It Is." His own words describing Himself. This will surely present and glorify Him correctly, expose pretenders by facilitating comparison of their qualities to the qualifications of His Divine Grace, and shed light on the guru issue. It is available at http://www.prabhupada.org.uk.

"This is the sublime mission of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. Many people come and inquire whether they have to give up family life to join the Society, but that is not our mission. One can remain comfortably in his residence. We simply request everyone to chant the maha-mantra: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. If one is a little literate and can read the Bhagavad-gita As It Is and Srimad-Bhagavatam, that is so much the better. These works are now available in an English translation and are done very authoritatively to appeal to all classes of men. Instead of living engrossed in material activities, people throughout the world should take advantage of this movement and chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra at home with their families. One should also refrain from sinful activities--illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication. Out of these four items, illicit sex is very sinful. Every person must get married. Every woman especially must get married. If the women outnumber the men, some men can accept more than one wife. In that way there will be no prostitution in society. If men can marry more than one wife, illicit sex life will be stopped. One can also produce many nice preparations to offer Krsna--grain, fruit, flowers and milk. Why should one indulge in unnecessary meat-eating and maintain horrible slaughterhouses? What is the use of smoking and drinking tea and coffee? People are already intoxicated by material enjoyment, and if they indulge in further intoxication, what chance is there for self-realization? Similarly, one should not partake in gambling and unnecessarily agitate the mind. The real purpose of human life is to attain the spiritual platform and return to Godhead. That is the summum bonum of spiritual realization. The Krsna consciousness movement is trying to elevate human society to the perfection of life by pursuing the method described by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in His advice to the brahmana Kurma. That is, one should stay at home, chant the Hare Krsna mantra and preach the instructions of Krsna as they are given in the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam."-Srila Prabhupada

"This is called parampara system. Suppose I have heard something from my spiritual master, so I speak to you the same thing. So this is parampara system. You cannot imagine what my spiritual master said. Or even if you read some books, you cannot understand unless you understand it from me. This is called parampara system. You cannot jump over to the superior guru, neglecting the next acharya, immediate next acharya."

(Srila Prabhupada lecture December 8th, 1973)

"As already stated, Brahma is the original spiritual master for the universe, and since he was initiated by the Lord Himself, the message of Srimad-Bhaagavatam is coming down by disciplic succession, and in order to receive the real message of Srimad-Bhaagavatam one should approach the CURRENT LINK, or spiritual master, in the chain of disciplic succession. After being initiated by the proper spiritual master in that chain of succession, one should engage himself in the discharge of tapasya in the execution of devotional service." (Bhag. 2.9.7)

The true pparampara succession does not depend on the 'institution' known as ISKCON. ISKCON has its place. The bona fide successor will be the most surrendered disciple of the predecessor Acarya, not an outsider who claims to be. He will be self-effulgent, wonderfully magnanamous, full of knowledge and the possessor of Sri Krishna. He is able to transfer the Lord from His heart to the heart of his disciple when he becomes pleased upon him. The desire of the soul to accept and be accepted by the bona fide succession is managed by the Lord Himself, through the heart.

Hare Krishna

And therefore BVT didn't write Svalikhita jivani... mind-servant uvaca.

Bhaktivinoda begins Svalikhita-jivani by addressing his son, "You have asked me for the details of my life. Whatever I am able to remember I have written down on paper for you. Please see that you do not misuse this story."

Completed on June 21, 1896 at the age of 58, Bhaktivinoda concludes, "O Lalita Prasada, whatever I can recollect up to my retirement I have written in this letter. You will know everything that happens from now on."

How can you compare the Svalikhita-jivani where BVT in his extreme honesty even reveals the fact that he ate meat and fish to Radhanath's book that deliberately leaves out the worst chapters in Iskcon that he had direct involvement with.

Shame on you VEDA for even trying to compare the two.

Svalikhita-jivani was simply a document for his son Lalita Prasad, and it was LP that later published it.

How much more inspiring and glorious it is to read about a human guru who has shown the way by struggling with the negative aspects of material entanglement and succeeded.

Writing a document for your son is a whole lot different to setting out with an objective of publishing your own biography and the huge self promotion of it, over and above your own gurus books, you need to look a little deeper at the motives, its not that hard.

Like I said "writing their own biographies and engaging in self promotion" It is the blatant self promotion aspect that shows up the asiddhantic deviation

VEDA:

I don't compare, I simply react to your "The true parampara succession does not engage in writing their own biographies".

This is only a partial quote. MS said:[br][br]

"The true parampara succession does not engage in writing their own biographies and engaging in self promotion, this practice is not in keeping with Gaudiya Vaisnavism and the mood and teachings of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu."[br][br]

Perhaps both of you should peruse Schopenhauer's The Art of Being Right ("http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Being_Right), as your fights are getting rather tedious to watch.[br]
:p

They are not fights??
They certainly seem like fights to me, given their repetitive nature.

I haven't thought about it that way. To me, it always seemed that for there to be a fight, there need to be logical fallacies; no fight, no logical fallacies; no logical fallacies, no fight.
In its proper application, the analytical mind exhausts itself. 8-)

manasi, you conveniently disregard your previous strawmen and focus on half-sentence. If the first half of the sentence is shown as invalid, the second one is of no consequence.

> Show me anyone in our parampara that has writen their own biography and then self promoted it? Your reference to BVT shows your lack of investigation and a your lack of deeper understanding and the fact that you have not read it or failed to understand the mood and the reasoning behind why it was written.

There're diary type of accounts by Murari Gupta and Svarupa Damodara. Also current disciples of SP are encouraged to write their remembrances of SP which inevitably also include their own biographical info.

From the Vedabase (records 771006 and 1283588) it seems that Tukarama and Bahinabai (both Vaisnavas from other paramparas) wrote autobiographies.

I did read SJ and understood the reason for its writing.

RNS: If you feel appointed as a siksa guru to bring him back to Vaisnava humility, tell it to him directly. I don't think he reads this forum.

VEDA>>manasi, you conveniently disregard your previous strawmen and focus on half-sentence. If the first half of the sentence is shown as invalid, the second one is of no consequence.

Says you VEDA who duplicitously quotes only part of my statement because that is the only way you can debate in this forum. By consistently mis-quoting and mis-representing its what the old Iskcon hacks used to pull on anyone who opposed the party line.

VEDA go look up the meaning of strawman argument, you are not worth the typing to respond to, as Baker pointed you out, you conveniently mis-quoted me in the beginning and you could not even respond to Baker.

VEDA>>From the Vedabase (records 771006 and 1283588) it seems that Tukarama and Bahinabai (both Vaisnavas from other paramparas) wrote autobiographies.

More false arguments, I already said in the Gaudiya Vaisnava parampara and I also said "and engages in blatent self promotion"

VEDA>>There're diary type of accounts by Murari Gupta and Svarupa Damodara. Also current disciples of SP are encouraged to write their remembrances of SP which inevitably also include their own biographical info.

remembrances are not autobiographies VEDA, and in your own words they are being asked to write their remembrances and those remembrances will relate directly to Srila Prabhupada and no doubt they will not launch a blatent self promotion campaign, atleast one would hope not.

You have to accept Radhanath is engaged in self promotion and that is simply not an activity of the Gaudiya Vaisnavas, so Radhanath by his own actions has disconnected himself from Srila Prabhupada and is showing everyone that he is not following his own parampara and he is not following in the mood of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. One only has to open ones eyes.

ccd, you are missing the main point and that is the blatant self promotion aspect, whether it is done with an autobiography or with a website/blog/newsletter/interview, blatant self promotion is not a mood that fits with humility, you cannot be humble and be into blatant self promotion. They are mutually exclusive.

Yes I agree as far as Iskcon is concerned Srila Prabhupada is the beginning and the end. The Alpha and the Omega...

mung: no (several reasons)

ms, it's of no use to repeat what I said. You simply have the need to criticize and I was taught to defend the absent ones. As you sow, you shall reap.

The Alpha and the Omega? And his disciples are good for nothing?

I don't know what I didn't respond to Baker. Can you remind me, Baker?

Baker>>Oh my. Then Krishna Himself is mightily at fault! 8-)

Krishna is absolute, even when he kills which he does often, the result is liberation, only one in complete ignorance would make such comparisons, there is simply no comparison between Krishna doing anything vs any activity of any conditioned soul.

Baker>>If I indeed were in complete ignorance, I could not even say words like "Krishna"

Then you are way in advance of me because I am in complete ignorance.

Has it ever crossed anybodies mind that it's quite possible that Radhanath Swami's book creates devotees?

Maybe it's something a lot of you haters should look into.

manasi_seva:

Kyros>>Has it ever crossed anybodies mind that it's quite possible that Radhanath Swami's book creates devotees?
[br][br]
No, but we do know Srila Prabhupada's books have created thousands of devotees, would it hurt Radhanath to also make his own spiritual masters books available from his own website as a sign of respect?

[br]
The same could be said about Srila Prabhupada. In any case, his book is bringing in people to Prabhupada's books anyway, and more important than that, it's getting people to chant Hare Krsna, which is the duty for this age.
[br][br]

"He eventually finds himself in a holy forest where his long, matted locks and threadbare garments gain him entrance into the company of renowned yogis and saints. This is where he begins to learn that beautiful things happen in life when we “let go of our own ego”.
[br][br]
Wow maybe if we grow matted locks and put on threadbare clothing we can also gain entrance into the company of renowned yogis and saints? who were they exactly?
Beautiful things did happen when he let go of his ego, like his involvement with the blackest chapters of Iskcon. (I guess this is why he left this stuff out of the book, facts always get in the way of a good story)
[br][br]
How much longer must we endure versions of "The Emperor's New Clothes"

[br]
There was a huge investigation at New Vrndavana by two state police departments as well as the FBI, and they found no connection to Radhanath Swami. If that fact alone doesn't convince you, then nothing else will.
[br]
The way I see it, if Krsna hasn't done anything about it by now, then there was nothing wrong with him in the first place. The years have already filtered out those who are genuine and those aren't. It's about time you open your eyes if you want to see him as he is.
[br][br]

Iskcon is becoming some weird nightmare, you keep thinking you are going to wake up and all of this weird stuff you are seeing will evaporate. I guess we are all in the bog of maya we can expect to see alot of weird stuff, somehow I get the feeling we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. Its going to get a whole lot weirder from here on in. Maybe I am seeing whats inside of me but the only response I can give to that is I don't see anything weird about Srila Prabhupada, the vibration I get from Srila Prabhupada rings clear and true.

[br]
So what are you doing about it? Are you making devotees? Are you getting people to chant the Hare Krsna mantra on beads? Are you engaging in the yuga-dharma? Are you getting people to engage in yuga-dharma?