relationships with non-devotees

jsmith

Do any of you have any experience or advice for someone who is interested in Krishna Consciousness, but is in a marriage or commited relationship with someone who is not favorable towards Krishna Consciousness? This is my current situation. My fiance is a Christian and doesn't share the same enthusiasm about Krishna Consciousness that I am starting to develop. She has accepted vegetarianism, but apart from that hasn't accepted Krishna Consciousness for fear that it is the same as the Idol worship that is condemned in the Christian Bible. She is a good person, although not very philosophically inclined but has a compassionate and giving nature. Is it possible to maintain a happy and healthy relationship in this way assuming that I continue the path of Krishna consciousness and she continues to practice Christianity? Also does anyone have experience the best way to present this philosophy to Christians? I feel as if I'm torn between two worlds. On one hand not having enough faith to completely renounce my relationship and also facing criticism from devotees about maintaining it. I'm a neophyte, currently only chant two rounds a day, read Bhagavad-Gita As it is daily, work forty hours a week, and attend the sunday program at the temple. Please let me know if any of you have any advice for my situation.

dweller-in-peace

>She has accepted vegetarianism

It means she really loves you. It will be better if you don't put any conditions on your love. I will love her only if she is interested in Krsna consciousness, please don't think in that way. Just love her unconditionally and accept her the way she is.

>Is it possible to maintain a happy and healthy relationship in this way assuming that I continue the path of Krishna consciousness and she continues to practice Christianity?

It is possible only when people are not fanatic followers of their religion.

>Also does anyone have experience the best way to present this philosophy to Christians?

Preaching to fiance will not work. Best strategy imho in this situation will be to preach to yourself. If you really follow nicely and your life becomes blissful by doing that she will be able to notice that change in you. But if by following the path of Krsna Consciousness, if you are not becoming blissful rather getting grumpy, she will notice that too. In this situation when you're trying to preach to a person who is very close like wife or fiance, words will not do, only the end result will decide.

>On one hand not having enough faith to completely renounce my relationship and also facing criticism from devotees about maintaining it.

My guess is you better listen to only those devotees who are experienced in dealing this type of situations.

VEDA

> Idol worship that is condemned in the Christian Bible

It's important to understand the difference between idols and murtis. Open and intelligent Christians should be able to do that. You can give an example of icons in Eastern Orthodox Church.

Book of Deuteronomy (from Douay-Rheims Bible)
12:2 Destroy all the places in which the nations, that you shall possess, worshipped their gods upon high mountains, and hills, and under every shady tree:
12:3 Overthrow their altars, and break down their statues, burn their groves with fire, and break their idols in pieces: destroy their names out of those places.
12:4 You shall not do so to the Lord your God:

The last text is important in this context - confusing fake with genuine images is a problem as they may look similar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murti

deena

> Do any of you have any experience or advice for someone who is interested in Krishna Consciousness, but is in a marriage or committed relationship
> with someone who is not favorable towards Krishna Consciousness?

Hi jsmith, in dealing with a similar situation, my realisation and experience is that be sure you give your wife/partner the space she needs. Playing Mr. Heavy will only turn her into a fanatical Christian and cause her to never consider the validity of Krishna Consciousness. Don't forget that as a committed Christian, she is also a devotee and has a devotional creeper that you can play a big part in making or breaking.

> Also does anyone have experience the best way to present this philosophy to Christians?

My experience is:
Firstly, stick with the common ground. There is so much of it.
Secondly, study Srila Prabhupada's books so you know what the hell you're talking about. Don't speak about thing you don't know. You'll look like an idiot, a cult member or a brain-washed fanatic.
Thirdly, read, study and discuss so that you can intelligently present and defend the points that aren't common, and in this way even though they may still disagree, they will certainly respect you and the philosophy and the door for dialogue will always remain open.
Fourth, always be a gentlemen even in disagreement.

> I feel as if I'm torn between two worlds. On one hand not having enough faith to completely renounce my relationship and also facing criticism from
> devotees about maintaining it.

It really depends on how mature and broad minded both parties are as to if it will work. Without knowing you both personally, it is very difficult to judge on what would be best for you both. But you should really consider if there really is a need to renounce your relationship. Unless you are preparing to shave-up, join a temple and give away all your possessions, then I doubt it is really necessary. Especially since your partner sounds like a reasonable person, faithfully following her tradition according to her understanding, she is vegetarian, worships God and follows Jesus's instructions...I would consider you to be in a fortunate situation. If you care for her with affection and prasadam and take her to the temples on festive occasions with the all-attractive decorations, music, colourful clothes and wonderful feasts, then I would consider you have fulfilled your duties under the circumstances.

In facing criticism from devotees about your relationship, don't be intimidated. I'd very carefully weigh their criticism before acting on it. Is it valid and reasonable or fanatical? Can you post some of the criticisms they make? I think it would be a good exercise to analyse them to see how appropriate they are.

jsmith

deena:
>
Can you post some of the criticisms they make? I think it would be a good exercise to analyse them to see how appropriate they are.

Some of the criticism is that I'm in maya and that I should leave her and find a devotee. Also being told that if we have kids they won't be devotees. Other than that just feeling alienated, like I'm not an insider unless I surrender to their will. The congregation I attend is predominantly Indian bodied devotees and many of them appear to me to be caste conscious although that may just be my imperfect perception. The first time I invited her to the temple she didn't bow down during the appropriate time due to the fear I explained above and she said someone forced her to bow down. I didn't see the situation, she only told me after or I would have stood up for her. This makes her not want to attend again.

Thanks to everyone who has commented so far. This is very refreshing and new take on my situation and has given me some hope.

arkanand

Haribol jsmith prabhu

I dont have anything to add specifically. I have just a general comment.

Your fiance taking to vegetarianism (I am assuming for your sake) is a huge step from her end. Most Christians eat meat and for her to become vegetarian perhaps is a life altering decision (just my hunch). Shower her with love and kindness and eventually in 5 or 10years seeing your dedication towards Krishna...she will at the least appreciate Krishna Con and not have a negative attitude.

I would at least in the beginning not so much engage in hot-button subject matter such as idol worship etc but rather focus on the common grounds such as monotheisim, love and compassion. Eventually seeing the positiveness of KC...she may get interested and probe deeper.

Finally on devotees criticizing...my only advice please do not support or criticize the devotees. In other words...dont try to find camps to take shelter. Just take shelter of Prabhupada and Krishna. Even if devotees behave in neophytic ways such as criticzing that you are in maya or other type of things....just tolerate them and go about your business. Keep in mind...in a common setting such as a temple...you will come across various devotees with different levels of spiritual purity. They all may not exhibit the highest standard of KC in thoughts, words or deeds. There is somehow a false understanding that the minute somone dons a sari and tilak or dhoti and tilak and is within ISKCON...we think he or she should speak, and conduct business on the platform of pure devotees. Like us...everyone is learning the trick of the trade and hence depending on the person...you will get different advice.

My advice is to cultivate a strong faith in Prabhupada and Krishna and sincerely stick to your sadhana like chanting and reading with full faith and try to execute the order of Guru to your best capacity. Surely you will get strength from within and eventually Krishna will give you faith to associate with an advanced soul.

Haribol
anand

ccd

Mahamsa: I'll tell them. Another thing was those, what is, I don't know what is the position of ladies being initiated. They are young girls. They may get married. They may get married to someone outside the society.
Prabhupada: But she can chant and observe the rules and regulations-what is that.
Mahamsa: Even if her husband does not follow?
Prabhupada: That does not matter. It is individual.
Mahamsa: Then there'll be five more.
Prabhupada: My sister, while she was married, her father-in-law's house, they were all eating fish. So a new girl, ten years, eleven years old. So she was given this foodstuff with fish and everything. So she was crying. So her mother-in-law, "Why you are crying?" "No, we do not touch all these things." She immediately arranged special cooking for her. So her husband and other members they were taking fish, but she never touched. She never touched. She does not know what is fish. If one wants to keep oneself pure, he or she can keep herself pure in any circumstances.

Room Conversation
-
August 22, 1976, Hyderabad

mishra

"Prabhupada: That does not matter. It is individual."

All considerations that people make like she has to be a devotee, etc are all bogus, based on caste system as you point out.

You respect and apreciate her and she will respect you. And in the midtime what is most possible to happen is that your Krishna consciousness will "infect" her. And if not, then let be it.

Detached and real Krisna concious means you are hard with yourself and soft with others.

I am talking from experience. Does NOT matter at all.

Haridas

'Some of the criticism is that I'm in maya and that I should leave her and find a devotee. Also being told that if we have kids they won't be devotees. Other than that just feeling alienated, like I'm not an insider unless I surrender to their will. The congregation I attend is predominantly Indian bodied devotees and many of them appear to me to be caste conscious although that may just be my imperfect perception. The first time I invited her to the temple she didn't bow down during the appropriate time due to the fear I explained above and she said someone forced her to bow down. I didn't see the situation, she only told me after or I would have stood up for her. This makes her not want to attend again. '

I wouldn't want to attend again either. It sounds horrible.

She's a vegetarian and a Christian, that's wonderful. Why not talk about philosophical similarities? Sometimes i duscuss with Christian friends and bring up Krishna Conscious perspectives on Christian theology, it's a nice way to get along with people. All you need to do is show her that Krishna Consciousness is also a path to God, in whatever way you choose to do that.

Don't break up with your fiance because of religion, that's no way to go.

mishra

some more thoughts on your situation:
discuss yor similarities and create a friendship based on your differences
problem could arise from her in time strongly wanting you to convert, then I would hesitate the union

Haridas

Are you Indian maah?

Haridas

Did you take birth in the land known as India, or within a family from that land? I judged you were Indian by your grammar, and your stance on this issue.

I hope you're not suggesting I have a problem with India/ns, since being here I obviously don't. The reason for my question was that I felt it very much determined your perspective on this.

To be blunt, I don't feel an Indian devotee from a Hindu family would understand what it is like to be a devotee in an ordinary European or American family.

I also think your comment is naive and fanatical. I seriously doubt you are someone who has faced such an issue.

mishra

>jsmith
Just follow Srila Prabhupada recommendation above and you will live a real live with its ups downs and things to be learned.
It is easy for anyone to advocate pure philosophy and quote shastra situated from their own perspective (usually Lah lah land), another thing is the practical application on someone elses life.

>maah
Those of we who are around 25+ years have seen enough people like you speaking philosophy from the armchair and having no vijnana whatsoever. Jsmith needs some real hands on advice to protect his spiritual life while learning. And that requires a balance that he will not find in your general statements, no matter how deep inside the Bhagavatam you get them.

deena

> It is easy for anyone to advocate pure philosophy and quote shastra situated from their own perspective (usually Lah lah land), another thing is the
> practical application on someone elses life

Yes, maah!'s comments immediately bought to mind the following (From the Srila Prabhupada Memories Series):

"Prabhupada was in his room in Vrindavana discussing various preaching plans with Akshayananda Maharaj when Prabhupada said, 'So, what should we do?' "Akshayananda Maharaj replied, 'Prabhupada, we’ll just have to become Krishna conscious.' "Prabhupada said, 'Another impractical suggestion.'"

Baker

mishra:
problem could arise from her in time strongly wanting you to convert, then I would hesitate the union

I agree.[br]

[br]My own experience is only limited to friendships with Christians, but it may help shed some light on the matter.[br][br]When I first took an interest in reading the Bhagavad.gita, my Christian friends then disapproved. I had one very close Christian friend, and he was critical of me, the BG, Hinduism in ways I have never thought he would be capable of.[br]For the sake of friendship and goodness, we stayed friends, close friends even with plans for the future. But over our relationship, there always hung a dark cloud. There was this silent understanding that I was wrong in my spiritual pursuits and that he, his friends and his family were right. This distrust and doubting of my spiritual goals spread out onto everyday matters - he doubted and belittled almost everything I said or did. Our relationship became a battleground of two different religious philosophies. On an almost daily basis, we fought over doctrinal matters. As I was not fluent in GV philosophy, nor did I have any support from devotees, I was left to myself in those fights, and I always felt like I lost - at least he made sure to present it in such a manner.[br] I hated what I have become through this relationship. Eventually, I broke it off (as well as all others), but I still don't feel I have recovered, even though it has been four years since.[br][br]

As far as I could analyze, it seems that the deciding factors in those bad relationships that I had with Christians were these: 1. the belief that Jesus is the only path to salvation and that all other paths are wrong, 2. the belief that whoever doesn't accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior will burn in hell for all eternity and deserves so, 3. the belief that one has what it takes to qualify for salvation and that nothing could happen that would make one doubt so.[br][br]

Of course, not all Christians have the above beliefs, but many do. Although they may seem very kind and accomodating to non-Christians, it has been my experience that it is impossible to maintain meaningful relationships with them in the long run. Now, I would not start any kind of friendly or close relationship with someone who has the three beliefs mentioned above.[br][br]

I am not saying this to scare or deprecate anyone. But I do think that differences in philosophical/religious outlook matter very much, even if one isn't particularly philosophically inclined, and trying to gloss over them or to say "One's beliefs are one's personal matter" can lead one into not taking one's own beliefs seriously, and thus not acting on them.

BURN THE CHRISTIANS!!

admin

This last commentary by Nrsingha d will be deleted as is inflammatory. Be careful not to become a born again Krishnian yourself :)

ccd

We have a lot of factual similarity in the original teachings of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and Bhaktivinoda Thakura with Christian concepts. We should all wait for Pranava Pr. to finally publish the book Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati to appreciate his research, it is amazing now much the villagers who joined his movement reverted it back to what we know and see it now.

http://news.iskcon.org/node/2555/2010-02-19/swedish_scholar_recognizes_bhaktisiddhantas_unique_contributions

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