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Where do you trace the line in sex life for advancement?
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are speaking in terms of illicit sex life or licit sex life?
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Renouncing any form of selfishness is good for you;-) even if you can not keep it up, try and try again, eventually you will succeed. Prabhupada admired his disciples for never questioning his instruction of "no illicit sex", he also admired his householders for following his "strict standard". Eventually you will have to renounce it completely if you are a householder and take up some austerity and travel.
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Sex life and the physical and subtle attraction to the opposite sex is no easy hurdle to get over, it defeats most spiritual aspirants. That's why all of us from the west (and most from the east) should get married otherwise we are simply delaying the inevitable and opening the door for scandals and more ill repute to be brought on the ashram where we reside. It would be a very rare soul indeed that could go from student life to Sannyas without any negative consequences.
Artificial renunciation of sex life can cause a huge disturbance in society, we have already seen this where the so called celibate priests turn into sexual predators and attack the most innocent, this is still happening in temples and churches throughout the world due to false renunciation.
If you are renouncing sex because you have a higher taste and you are genuinely and truthfully more attracted to worshipping Krishna and serving his devotees then you have achieved what most people in this world cannot. For the rest of us honesty and truthfulness about where we are at is needed, if we cannot be honest and truthful to ourselves about our attachments and desires then spiritual advancement will be very difficult.
For most people the path should be marriage it is a sanctified ashram and it has no impediments to advancement in spiritual life. However as a devotee being married we are all aware that marriage is not an open ended ticket to sense enjoyment, it allows one to experience sex with a view to having children and slowly freeing oneself from not just sex desire but all mundane activities. It is a great ashram to honestly and truthfully work through these areas in life and to gain many realizations. Even Srila Prabhupada went through the grhasta ashram, not that he needed to but if thats not the best example to his devotees on this subject I don't know what is. -
Sometimes you think to renounce even though you are not free from it, sometimes you think to engage in it, suffer and then realize...How do you know if one or the other is the right course for you?mishra:
Just look at all the fallen sannyasis or the sour and bitter ones, pedofile priests, fire and brimstone preachers who secretly engage in all kinds of sex. Have we learned nothing from it???
Get a nice wife and lead a normal life while practicing Krsna consciousness. With time the sex desire will not be a problem - this the typical Vedic path. Sannyasa in particular, and artificial renunciation in general, is perhaps the biggest curse on our movement. -
> Sannyasa in particular, and artificial renunciation in general, is perhaps the biggest curse on our movement.
The problem was in the twisted concept of sannyas as the license for enjoyment of all those 'best facilities'. Otherwise the sannyas itself is no problem as seen in other sampradayas like Madhva or Ramanuja. They've hardly any fallen sannyasis. One significant reason is probably the use of jyotish to check candidates. When this was suggested to GBC to be applied in ISKCON it didn't get thru (as told by astrologer Shyamasundara P. ACBSP). -
In GV, is there something similar like the "cemetery meditation" in Buddhism?[br]
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In kammattana, it is permissible to use certain devices, such as the earth or color kasina, as focal points for the attention. A candle flame, a hole in the wall, or some metal object can also be used, and the method of using them is found in the Pali texts and the Visuddhi-magga. In the texts themselves it is to be noted that the Buddha gave objects of meditation to disciples in accordance with their individual characteristics, and his unerring knowledge of the right technique for each came from his insight into their previous births. Similarly with recursive meditation,a subject would be given which was easily comprehensible to the pupil, or which served to counteract some strong, unwholesome tendency in his nature. Thus, to one attracted by sensual indulgence, the Buddha would recommend meditation on the impurity of the body, or the "cemetery meditation." Here the object is to counterbalance attraction by repulsion, but it is only a "skillful means" to reach the final state, in which attraction and repulsion both cease to exist. In the arahant there is neither liking nor disliking: he regards all things with perfect equanimity, as did Thera Maha Moggallana when he accepted a handful of rice from a leper.[br]
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http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/story/bl015.html
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Warning! Graphic images: http://silentmindopenheart.org/docs/cemetery/Death.html -
> Sannyasa in particular, and artificial renunciation in general, is perhaps the biggest curse on our movement.VEDA:
The problem was in the twisted concept of sannyas as the license for enjoyment of all those 'best facilities'. Otherwise the sannyas itself is no problem as seen in other sampradayas like Madhva or Ramanuja. They've hardly any fallen sannyasis.
In Iskcon sannyasa was always given with very little regard for actual qualification for this ashrama. And it was a clear social promotion with a license for all sorts of powers and priviledges. On top of that it was given to young guys coming from a very hedonistic culture (western) and subculture (hippies). And there is very little surprise that it failed miserably, creating a very serious disturbance in our movement. This disturbance continues today. Sannyasis are the kings in Iskcon - that is a total perversion of varnashrama.
But in general one should follow one's nature - what will repression accomplish? Gita anyone? -
I do not think that verse from the 3rd chapter is about it. Let's be honest, sannyasa always was a 'preaching tool' not really a requirement for being a true tyagi. It is true that most of them who had a difficulty had had it because of the background they were from. It is also true that sannyasis were kind of 'kings' of Iskcon. But sadrsam cestate svasyah is about something else. "Even wise people act according to the nature they have acquired in this world." So what to speak of those who are sa-kama bhaktas or regular formal religionists, they will not be benefited by the strict rules. This is the reason for different stokes for different folk rules of the Vedas. However it is natural for a devotee to want to renounce, and it is natural to respect renunciation, even if it is 'an attempt'. I am full of respect to all the devotees who tried to do best in the service of Prabhupada and specifically brahmacaris and sannyasis. Not that I will draw a line between the two;-)
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Baker: "When a devotee is in great danger, he sees that danger to be the great mercy of the Lord because it is an opportunity to think of the Lord very sincerely and with undiverted attention. Tat te 'nukampam susamiksamano bhunjana evatma-krtam vipakam (SB 10.14.8). He does not accuse the Supreme Personality of Godhead for having let His devotee fall into such a dangerous condition. Rather, he considers that dangerous condition to be due to his past misdeeds and takes it as an opportunity to pray to the Lord and offer thanks for having been given such an opportunity. When a devotee lives in this way, his salvation-his going back home, back to Godhead-is guaranteed. We can see this to be true from the example of Gajendra, who anxiously prayed to the Lord and thus received an immediate chance to return home, back to Godhead." (SB 8.3.32 Purp)
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For precision's sake - At Access To Insight, there is a version of this sutta translated by Soma Thera, with extensive notes from the commentary.
But for some reason, this one is not linked to in the general index of suttas, but is filed under the authors:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel021.html .
In the commentary to this sutta, I think there are some useful suggestions on how to go about each of the five steps. With some knowledge, one can find suitable Vaishnava contents for these steps.
I suspect that this method of successive steps is not something specifically Buddhist, this is why I am mentioning it here. It could be that it is something that goes without saying among many "Easterners", or at least it used to, that it is part of their culture, and as such not specifically mentioned each time it would be necessary to use it.
I am sure Srila Prabhupada and other teachers know a lot of such procedures and methods, but that "Westerners" are not always able to take full advantage of that because we aren't aware such procedures and methods can exist. -
Interesting Bakerji. Shrila Prabhupada may not have been aware of all Buddhist's tricks. We are not big fans of austerity and self humiliation.
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In this Discussion
- Baker May 2010
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