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"Those who speak bluntly are to be trusted." Should we speak bluntly and risk offenses?
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In a sense, "speak bluntly" means to be honest. You can be wrong, but at least you are telling what you really think about the subject.
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niHspR^iho nAdhikArI syAn nAkAmo maNDanapriyaH |
nAvidagdhaH priyaM brUyAtspaSTavaktA na va~nchakaH || 05\-05
spaSTa means clear, open, plain out, etc. - not blunt in the sense of callous, brash.
In my editions of Canakya Nitisastra:
... he who speaks out plainly cannot be a deceiver.
... one who is plain-speaking would not be a crook.
... out spoken man is never a thug. -
There is a convenient play of words related to this:
To be "brutally frank" - and to be "frankly brutal".
Often, when people say they are or want to be "brutally frank", they are actually frankly brutal.
A serial murderer could also "speak bluntly" or be "brutally frank" about their murders, but that doesn't mean such a person should be trusted. -
Frankly.
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>Should we speak bluntly and risk offenses?
Rasa Prabhu, acts are not very important, the real important thing is the underlying feeling, intention, out of which an act is performed. For example, Srila Prabhupada was chastising materialists calling them Mudha and so on but it was out of compassion, the underlying feeling was compassion for the fallen souls, so even if he may feel brutal sometimes still it has a sweetness to it.
Whereas when someone is blunt out of envy or hatred it is a different story. So one needs to be introspective and find out for themselves why they are acting bluntly and that will decide the offense factor. -
" The truth (satya) is propagated in a twofold way viz. positively or by the method of direct support and negatively by the method of opposition. The truth cannot be made sufficiently known by the positive method alone. Propaganda by the method of opposition more than the presentation of the positive aspect brings about more brilliantly in this world the appearance and glorification of the truth. The positve method by itself is not the most effective mode of propaganda in a controversial Age like the present. The negative method which seeks to differentiate the Truth from non Truth in all its forms, is even better calculated to convey the directly inconceivable significance of the Absolute. It is a necessity which cannot be conscientiously avoided by the dedicated preacher of the Truth if he wants to be loyal servant of Godhead. The method is sure to create an atmosphere of controversy in which it is quite easy to lose one's balance of judgement. But the ways of the deluding energy are so intricate that unless their mischevious nature is fully exposed it is not possible for the soul in the conditioned state to avoid the snares spread by the enchantress for encompassing the ruin of her only too willing victims. It is a duty which shall be sacred to all who have been enabled to obtain even a distant glimpse of the Abolute." Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura
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VEDA>>spaSTa means clear, open, plain out, etc. - not blunt in the sense of callous, brash.
I agree with Veda, after all Chankaya was famous for two works Artha Sastra and Niti Shastra both written in Sanskrit, I would also question the translation of the word used above "Blunt" the word and the meaning behind this word we use today in the modern age is probably quite different from what Chanakya meant and if he saw the blunt people and the blunt words they use in this day and age I doubt if he was aiming his meaning at these types.
This kind of example reminds me of most politicians we see that cannot give a straight, clear, open, plain answer it is always embellished with several meanings or no meaning at all, carefully answered so that at no time in the future can they be accused of aligning themselves with any issues that may come about, it has become a world of deceit. This type of evasiveness is spreading to businesses and to people in general.
It is a rare thing in this day and age to get a clear, straight forward, truthful answer and when you get it, it does earn your trust. -
> Should we speak bluntly and risk offense?
Unless one is speaking an untruth, how is it possible to risk offense by speaking bluntly and truthfully? Mahatma Vidura is glorified for his blunt and honest speech to Drtharasthra. Such speech lit the fire of knowldege and renucnciation in him. -
When you repeat sastra you speak the truth. You can not commit offences like that. When you speak about what tradition or perception or someone's faulty sense perceive as a truth, you are not talking the truth and that is when you commit offences if you are blunt. Thus be blunt in repeating the message of Krishna and the words of the Bhagavatam, but we very very careful when speaking on other topics and in your own words. We are often just the other way around.
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When you repeat sastra you speak the truth. You can not commit offences like that. When you speak about what tradition or perception or someone's faulty sense perceive as a truth, you are not talking the truth and that is when you commit offences if you are blunt. Thus be blunt in repeating the message of Krishna and the words of the Bhagavatam, but we very very careful when speaking on other topics and in your own words. We are often just the other way around.ccd:
Can u back that up with Guru,Sadhu,Sastra please? ........................................................................................
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" The truth (satya) is propagated in a twofold way viz. positively or by the method of direct support and negatively by the method of opposition. The truth cannot be made sufficiently known by the positive method alone. Propaganda by the method of opposition more than the presentation of the positive aspect brings about more brilliantly in this world the appearance and glorification of the truth. The positve method by itself is not the most effective mode of propaganda in a controversial Age like the present. The negative method which seeks to differentiate the Truth from non Truth in all its forms, is even better calculated to convey the directly inconceivable significance of the Absolute. It is a necessity which cannot be conscientiously avoided by the dedicated preacher of the Truth if he wants to be loyal servant of Godhead. The method is sure to create an atmosphere of controversy in which it is quite easy to lose one's balance of judgement. But the ways of the deluding energy are so intricate that unless their mischevious nature is fully exposed it is not possible for the soul in the conditioned state to avoid the snares spread by the enchantress for encompassing the ruin of her only too willing victims. It is a duty which shall be sacred to all who have been enabled to obtain even a distant glimpse of the Abolute." Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura -
"Those who speak bluntly are to be trusted." - Chanakya Panditrasa108:
It is possible to deceive others by bluntly lying to them ;) --------
But in that case I think the meaning is as follows: "trust people who speak the truth or say what they mean in a plain fashion, without using criptic and obscure language, like a fine print in a language only a seasoned lawyer could understand".
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As others pointed out earlier, this saying does not refer to the use of some crude and harsh language. -
[quote]Baker:
When you repeat sastra you speak the truth. You can not commit offences like that.ccd:
Unless one is speaking an untruth, how is it possible to risk offense by speaking bluntly and truthfully?deena:
By speaking to an unwilling audience.[/quote]
Preaching to the faithless! :-( -
It is one thing to to come at something from a different approach,quite another to maintain a lie. Even if unbeknown to oneself.
Obvious falsehoods even worse imho. -
[quote]Baker:
When you repeat sastra you speak the truth. You can not commit offences like that.ccd:
Unless one is speaking an untruth, how is it possible to risk offense by speaking bluntly and truthfully?deena:
By speaking to an unwilling audience.[/quote]
That is a good point to discuss. However the effect of speaking plainly and clearly the words of Krishna is that those who are envious will not want to listen. They will get up and go, or will have to undergo the change of heart. [br][br]
Rather opposite is true if you talk something else than direct words of the scriptures. You can be rather blunt with your own disciples, because you are the purpose of their surrender and you can break the mold of pride better than others. But the reality of you repeating those words to a novice audience or for your own advantage could have an opposite effect. [br][br]
apani acari' bhakti sikhaimu sabre - that is the basis for preaching, become perfect yourself, then you will be able to lead others. Unless you get there and unless you repeat the perfect message you should follow satyam bruyat priyam bruyat principle. "Unpalatable truths should be carefully avoided". -
It is a duty which shall be sacred to all who have been enabled to obtain even a distant glimpse of the Absolute" Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura
Defending the Spirtual Master! Crooked wranglers! Wolfs in sheeps clothing,of the worse kind. -
"One should accept a thing as genuine by studying the words of saintly people, the spiritual master and the sästra. The actual center is the sästra, the revealed scripture. if a spiritual master does not speak according to the revealed scripture, he is not to be accepted. Similarly, if a saintly person does not speak according to the sästra, he is not a saintly person. The sästra is the center for all" [Cc.Madhya.20.352 purp.]
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ccd:
That is a good point to discuss. However the effect of speaking plainly and clearly the words of Krishna is that those who are envious will not want to listen. They will get up and go, or will have to undergo the change of heart.
What do you mean by they "will have to undergo the change of heart" - will it happen against their will?
[br][br]apani acari' bhakti sikhaimu sabre - that is the basis for preaching, become perfect yourself, then you will be able to lead others. Unless you get there and unless you repeat the perfect message you should follow satyam bruyat priyam bruyat principle. "Unpalatable truths should be carefully avoided".
I have heard on one occasion that Srila Prabhupada said that neophytes should not preach.[br]
I have also heard from devotees that everyone should preach, even if imperfectly - that imperfect preaching is better than no preaching. -
Mercy of the devotee is greater than the free will given to jivas, it is the mystery of preaching. This is a sign of great devotee, his mercy is greater than the Lord himself. Our will is not very strong, I wish someone would preach to me 'against my will', at least against some of it...
Neophytes should not preach by sharing their realizations, but by repeating shastra, for they will gain realization in this way, being purified. But the fact is that kanisthas are unable to preach, they only respect their guru and the deity and are unable to see or respect other living entities.
Actually advanced devotee would not preach too. He would see everyone besides himself perfectly engaged in the service of Krishna. Of course such devotee may come down on the platform of discrimination, thus best 'gosthianandi is bhajananadi who preaches.' -
I recall reading once that faith can develop also by force, or something to that effect - that once a person starts off on the path of devotional service, they can be carried on by force.
I have been looking for that reference for quite some time now, but I can't find it. Maybe someone here knows? -
One more thing:
[br][br]
When you repeat sastra you speak the truth. You can not commit offences like that. When you speak about what tradition or perception or someone's faulty sense perceive as a truth, you are not talking the truth and that is when you commit offences if you are blunt. Thus be blunt in repeating the message of Krishna and the words of the Bhagavatam, but we very very careful when speaking on other topics and in your own words. We are often just the other way around.ccd:
I have noticed something peculiar about the way the brahmacari here communicates with me:[br][br]
When he holds lectures at the nama-hatta, he seems to speak with utmost authority, as if he had personally realized everything he says. But if I inquire about some possible personal application or something like that or ask him for advice, he seems awkwardly distant and reluctant.[br][br]
This has puzzled me, and also frustrated me, because I assumed that he would always speak with the same authority/certainty he does during the lecture - so no matter what I would ask him, what he would say would be obligatory for me. I had suspected that his distance and reluctance then had to do with him not liking me or worse - and that I must take that as obligatory.[br][br]
But what you say above perfectly explains his behavior![br][br]
On the other hand, I have experienced that some devotees seem to imbue everything they say with the same authority/certainty - whether they repeat sastra or make an assessment of some specific person or situation. -
I can see two possible reasons: he doesn't have much realizations of his own to share and he feels awkward talking with a woman.
> some devotees seem to imbue everything they say with the same authority/certainty - whether they repeat sastra or make an assessment of some specific person or situation.
It remains to be seen if that's artificial (in imitation of Srila Prabhupada) or based on genuine realizations. The difference is not always easy to recognize on our level. -
Humble experience suffered over many years,speak the truth in a ''blatant honest way with no frills'' ,only a very rare person....[even rarer follower] will accept! A manager on the net will ban you ...since others mostly are content ,they will see you as the enemy!Spiritual life .....be prepared for many enemies ,even in spiritual sanga.So many hypocrites unfortunately.....sometimes they out number the genuine.....why is this so ?Because as Srila PRABHUPADA suggest you are in prison house of durga!BY DEFINITION .....only envious exist here....and others getting better!....End result ,truly value the non-envious sadhu.
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Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur; Worldly people possess a double nature. They express one kind of sentiment but internally cherish a different purpose. Moreover, they want to advertise this duplicity as a mark of liberalism or love of harmony. Those who are unwilling to show any duplicity wish to be frank and straight forward or in other words to exercise unambiguously the function of the soul. Such persons are called sectarian and orthodox by those who practice duplicity. We will not keep company with any person who is not so. We must by all means avoid bad company. We are advised to keep at a distance of 100 cubits from animals of the horned species. We should observe the same in regard to all insincere persons." (The Harmonist).
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Chapter 5, Verse 5. He whose hands are clean does not like to hold an office; he who desires nothing cares not for bodily decorations; he who is only partially educated cannot speak agreeably; and he who speaks out plainly cannot be a deceiver.
http://www.philosophy.ru/library/asiatica/indica/authors/kautilya/canakya_niti_sastra.html
It's not clear from the verse what this person who speaks plainly is talking about?
Where did the translation "Those who speak bluntly are to be trusted" come from? -
Sarasvati Thakur would say, "I don't read the book, I read the author. I first
see the author to see if he's authentic or not. I am a proof-reader. I always
see what is right and what is wrong. My father trained me in proof-reading,
but I am not only a proof-reader of the press I am a proof-readder of the
world. I proof-read men: I see their faults and try to correct them. I am a
proof-reader of religion also. I have appeared in karkata-lagna; so whenever
I see anything undevotional I will act like a karkata (a crab). If I see any so
-called devotion which is not actually in the true unalloyed spirit, I shall
pierce it!"
So this is the advanced mood of an archarya, Jaya ho...srimad bhaktisiddanta saraswati takura, -
Prabhupada said: "You don't make friendship with a fool, but if a man is intelligent, you can even make him an enemy. But a fool, he may pose himself as a friend, but anything he does is very harmful."
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'A fool is not known untill he speaks.' Old Bengali proverb.
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I know rather a few fools who speak a lot!!! Especially Bangalis. I think there are a lot of fools who think that have mastered the philosophy of Shree Mahaprabhu, especially disturbing.
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I know rather a few fools who speak a lot!!! Especially Bangalis. I think there are a lot of fools who think that have mastered the philosophy of Shree Mahaprabhu, especially disturbing.borokrsnadasa:
the point is he not known untill he speaks,but as soon as he speaks he is known as foolish. -
Humble experience suffered over many years,speak the truth in a ''blatant honest way with no frills'' ,only a very rare person....[even rarer follower] will accept! A manager on the net will ban you ...since others mostly are content ,they will see you as the enemy!Spiritual life .....be prepared for many enemies ,even in spiritual sanga.So many hypocrites unfortunately.....sometimes they out number the genuine.....why is this so ?Because as Srila PRABHUPADA suggest you are in prison house of durga!BY DEFINITION .....only envious exist here....and others getting better!....End result ,truly value the non-envious sadhu.bhagavan prasada: -
Do you think we can not read it the first time?
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Thanks for nothing you morron
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Not qualified.
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Let's get it out in the open, you two. What's the story here with borokrsnadasa and anandahari? Do you two know each other? Is this an old and ongoing feud or did it start with some disagreements on this forum? Rather than little quips and backbiting why not face off --- bring out in the open wherefrom is coming all the enmity --- and invite some input from others. Are two willing? Best to clear the air because it's very distracting when a discussion is proceeding along and then suddenly the insults between you to begin to fly.
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>Thanks for nothing you morron
Here is an example of speaking bluntly (in modern day terms) but obviously offensive....I think the question is asking us if we should speak plainly at the risk of offending a devotee or should we leave that to someone qualified (e.g., Spiritual Master or higher authority who can deliver the message effectively).
As mentioned by others in this thread, plain speaking based on our own conceptions of someone may be undesirable....also mentioned was the intent behind the words - if we are doing it to help/out of love for the person - this also needs to be done expertly so as not to offend.
Tricky business....I am sure there will be more said but please prabhus and matajis, refrain from insults and offensive comments. -
I am sorry, did not mean no disrespect. Just a statement of fact, he is a mentally defective individual with a mental age between 7 and 12 years. Sorry for being blunt. Why don't you just trust me?
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This was infact the first witful ....not witless comment you have offered prabhu.Congratulations.....slow but steady progress,being blunt is indeed your forte,....i trust that you are definitely ....on the wrong tread infact as usual .But your are in the association of devotees,so hopefully krishna will simply except you....out of his causeless mercy!....jaya ho sun sampradaya.
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Let's get it out in the open, you two. What's the story here with borokrsnadasa and anandahari? Do you two know each other? Is this an old and ongoing feud or did it start with some disagreements on this forum? Rather than little quips and backbiting why not face off --- bring out in the open wherefrom is coming all the enmity --- and invite some input from others. Are two willing? Best to clear the air because it's very distracting when a discussion is proceeding along and then suddenly the insults between you to begin to fly.portnoy:
Borokrishnadas is none other then ccd. :-0 -
[quote]anandahari:
Let's get it out in the open, you two. What's the story here with borokrsnadasa and anandahari? Do you two know each other? Is this an old and ongoing feud or did it start with some disagreements on this forum? Rather than little quips and backbiting why not face off --- bring out in the open wherefrom is coming all the enmity --- and invite some input from others. Are two willing? Best to clear the air because it's very distracting when a discussion is proceeding along and then suddenly the insults between you to begin to fly.portnoy:
Borokrishnadas is none other then ccd. :-0[/quote] In your dreams... dave -
[quote]anandahari:
Let's get it out in the open, you two. What's the story here with borokrsnadasa and anandahari? Do you two know each other? Is this an old and ongoing feud or did it start with some disagreements on this forum? Rather than little quips and backbiting why not face off --- bring out in the open wherefrom is coming all the enmity --- and invite some input from others. Are two willing? Best to clear the air because it's very distracting when a discussion is proceeding along and then suddenly the insults between you to begin to fly.portnoy:
Borokrishnadas is none other then ccd. :-0[/quote]
Believe me,I know these people,one and the same.
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- anandahari June 2010
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