To my understanding there would be no freedom if we cannot make the mistaken decission to allure ourselves in the material world, once we learn the lesson there is no come back as Bhagavad gita says.
That is possible because we have perfect knowledge in the spiritual world but not complete, it is like a big vessel and a small one, both full. Because we are tiny we can fall. Of course it is nothing like being a full fledged demon, just wanting to explore what is like being separated from the Lord.

Vaikuntha of prapanca (sense perception ????

what is that?

Comes to my mind the example of someone hit by an arrow, wouldn?t waste time in trying to ascertain why it happen and all details, but concentrate mostly in cure efforts.

If we came from a marginal place then we have never been with Krishna before?
So how did we become envious of Him and all that?

I agree with Sitapati. We can say we were with Krishna because our relationship with Krishna is eternal and we are eternal. If we eternally have a relationship, I guess we are looking for a turning point where something happens and our situation changes.

We came from a different type of potency than the nitya-siddhas who are always with Krishna. We have things in common with them but things that are not in common. It is all quite mysterious, related to the eternal rasa of the living entity. I always wonder about the nature of people in this world and how much of their personality is an eternal aspect and how much is temporary. I suppose it only makes sense for devotees as they display their eternal characteristics in Krishna's service.

I am sorry, I do not have the books compiled from the lectures/conversations of HH GGS from Gopal Jiu publications. I would often see them in India, but haven't seen them in the local temple (gift shop is small!). I can't even remember which book it is in. HH GGS mentions it is in the 9th canto and mentions a portion of it, but I could not find what Maharaj was referring to.

However in Jaiva Dharma it is quite clear (from the translation I read) that the nitya siddhas come from Krishna's personal potency and the nitya baddha's come from Maha-Vishnu's potency. The personification of Krishna's marginal potency can never be in maya, they do lila's.... Maybe we can say we are personifications of Maha-Vishnu's marginal potency covered in matter.

that sounds like mayavada...
please explain.

"personifications of a potency" or "person with potencies" ?
We conditioned souls are of a different energy than nitya mukta?
Sounds like the Lord creates souls that fall and others that do not.
If it is like that, pretty good joke but I do not like it (being in the losers camp).

In regards to creation, what about that famous statement "the Lord was one and then became many", how do you put that affirmation in context with your explanation?

I am just repeating what I have heard, I don't have references though. Ask some senior devotees.

If the soul is eternal then how was it created?

Do you think that statement of the Lord being one and expanding into many is limiting by time which anyway doesn't exist in the spiritual realm?

If someone is going to judge whether this is my understanding or the way it is then he would have to know reality so then I could ask him myself.

"eko bahu shyama" --> " the One became many" , that is the exact quote

I think it is important to know that Krishna expanded Himself in many to expand His enjoyment. Exactly how and when, we can speculate until we think we are God or everything is One but not many.

Statements that usually do not fit square can be reconciliated with our philosophy.

Acintya bheda abheda tattva can be applied to this and to all others statements that seem not to fit in place. Like we are one with Krishna and at the same time different.

Sitapati Prabhu: Since you have prefaced the topic nicely, if you have the Jaiva dharma can you quote the section where the description of the Jiva's origins is stated please? As you said we simply need to chant Hare Krishna, but still we can hear from the later chapters what was written.

Since I have reached the limits of my adhikara here are some writings from senior devotees.

First from Drutakarma prabhu:
http://bhagavata.net/avadhuta/files/Philosophy/Soul/Drutakarma%20soul%20file/Drutakarma%20soul%20file%20compl.htm

And here is from another source, disciples of BR Shridhar Swami
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva_points.html
most of the pertinent shastric quotes are in part 4:
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva_4.html

So if one can go through those and then make up their mind as to where the jiva came from and what he was doing before he decided to become a worm in stool. But the statements quoted above from Shrila Prabhupada are quite straightforward:

Shrila Prabhupada:
"The all-pervading feature of the Lord which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls-is known as Brahman." (Isopanisad, Text 16, purport)

"As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses." (Isopanisad, Text 17, purport)

I must admit previously I had never gotten into such depth about this controversy. However getting into this has been quite fascinating and has made these spiritual topics more interesting for me.

This book is referenced above and is VERY fascinating. If there is a devotee wiki for spiritual/philosophical/scientific topics we can really discuss parts of this book and some devotees will really appreciate it: "Subjective Evolution of Consciousness"
http://bhagavata.net/avadhuta/files/Devotion%20-%20shastras/Bhakti%20Raksak%20Sridhar%20Dev-Goswami/About%20Bhakti%20Raksak%20Sridhar%20Dev-Goswami%20Maharaj.htm

I think this book can be used to preach to intellectual people. There are really some sections in it which I would like to get explained to me. There are some crazy indian intellectual phd people where i work, i wonder if they are beyond help or I should try preaching to them. He was already telling me how the Sumerian civilization is older than the Indian civilization. And what shastric quote can I whip out for him?

Bhaktivinoda Thakura (Kalyana Kalpataru) - About WE FALL FROM GOLOKA

(12)
krsna se parama-tattva prakrtir par
brajete bilasa krsna kore' nirantar
Krsna is that Supreme Absolute Truth existing beyond the material energy. He eternally performs His daily pastimes within the realm known as Vraja.
(13)
cid-dhama-bhaskara krsna, tanra jyotirgata
ananta citkana jiba tisthe avirata
Krsna is the shining sun of this all-cognizant spiritual abode, and within His effulgence dwell innumerable fine particles of pure cognizance called jiva.
(14)
sei jiba prema-dharmi, krsna-gata-prana
sada krsnakrstha, bhakti-sudha kore' pana
These jiva souls are by very nature full of pure ecstatic love and are all the dearly beloved of Lord Krsna. Always being attracted by Krsna, they continuously drink the ambrosial nectar of devotion.
(15)
nana-bhava-misrita piya dasya-rasa
krsner ananta-gune sada thake basa
Enjoying a mixture of various moods in the mellow of servitude, the jivas eternally remain subjugated and controlled by Krsna;s unlimited virtuous qualities.
(16)
krsna mata, krsna pita, krsna sahka, pati
ei sab bhinna-bhava krsna kore rati
They also love Krsna in all the different moods of being related to Him as a mother, father, friend, or husband.
(17)
krsna se purusa ek nitya brndabane
jiba-gana nari-brnda, rame krsna sane
Eternally in Vrndavana Krsna is the only male (purusa), and all the jivas there enjoy pastimes in His company in the role of females (prakrti).
(18)
sei to' ananda-lila ja'r nai anta
ataeva krsna-lila akhanda ananta
There is no end to all of these blissful pastimes; therefore Krsna's pastimes are known for being undisputedly supreme and unlimited.
(19)
je-sab jiber 'bhoga-banca upajilo
purusa bhavete ta'ra jade paravesilo
All the souls, in whom the desire to enjoy separately awakens, have to enter into the material world under the false conception of being a male (a purusa).
(20)
maya-karya jada maya--nitya-sakti-chaya
krsna-dasi sei satya, kara-kartri maya
Illusory material activities as well as maya herself are both the shadow reflections of the eternal potency. In reality, maya is the eternal maidservant of Krsna, but her job is to be in charge of operating the prison-house of the material world.
(21)
sei maya adarser samasta bisesa
loiya gathilo bisva jahe purna klesa
This illusory energy maya, has created the material universe exactly like an imitation model of the real spiritual variegatedness, but with the added feature of being full of various miseries.
(22)
jiba jadi hoilena krsna-bahimukha
mayadevi tabe ta'r jachilena sukha
If by chance a living entity becomes averse to the Supreme Lord Krsna, then Mayadevi's duty is to voluntarily offer her temptations of material happiness.
(23)
maya-sukhe matta jiba sri-krsna bhulilo
sei se avidya-base asmita janmilo
Intoxicated by maya's illusory happiness, the living entity then forgets Krsna. Under the influence of such ignorance, false egoistic selfishness arises.
(24)
asmita hoite hoilo maya-bhinivesa
taha hoite jadagata raga ar dvesa
From such selfishness she becomes raptly absorbed in illusion, and then she develops angry grudges and envious hatred towards other living entities.
(25)
eirupe jiba karma-cakre pravesiya
uccavaca-gatikrame phirena bhramiya
In this fashion, the living entities are entering the wheel of fruitive activities, oscillating thereupon, and gradually wandering up and down.

BSST the another idea also plainly:

“The individual souls serve Shri Krsna as constituents of Shri Radhika. When they forget that they are constituents of Shri Radhika, they forget the nature of their own selves and engage in the abnormal activities of the mundane plane.” [Shri Chaitanya’s Teachings, p. 615]

So what is the solution?

Prabhupada gave the solution:

Srila Prabhupada said on April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan - “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” Srila Prabhupada says that we were originally with Krsna and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen’.

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”.

Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there”.


...
So both idea is right. The quotes from scripures not contradict.

Dear Veda!

So do you have the same conclusion as Prabhupada? (- That both idea is right.)

to Acyutananda: They are just two angles of vision, imho.
But the whole issue started since Srila Prabhupada gave at least three views of jiva's origin - 1. from Vaikuntha/Goloka (above quotes), 2. from brahmajyoti (in Iso), 3. still liberated but having a material dream (above quotes).
If we take brahmajyoti origin as secondary (jivas already on the way out since brahmajyoti is external to Vaikuntha/Goloka), it may be harmonized. This is my understanding.

to Hari Bhakta dasa: Agreed. But there are many inquisitive persons and we say our teachings explain everything. ;)

If you read the purport (Iso17) further, you will find this: "Becoming one with the brahmajyoti does not represent mature knowledge... "
So Srila Prabhupada gives the origin of the jivas in brahmajyoti. But we talk about the FIRST "falldown" from spiritual world. So this isn't relevant. Srila Prabhupada never said that our primary origin is the brahmajyoti. He explained that our nature is tatastha, that is a main characteristic, not a place of origin.
We can find just one so called "contradiction": Many times He said that we fall from Goloka/Vaikuntha, and many times He said we never falls from Goloka/Vaikuntha. If we examine the above-mentioned Tokio lecture, we will see that both approach is true:
"we were originally with Krsna and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen’."
So we have not fallen, the falldown is just like a dream. A dream of the material life - that we are in...

The nice Prabhupada quote says it all.
Sitapatis explanations impress me, and make the matter very clear.

We are spiritual beings, living in a spiritual reality. There is no other reality. So thus we are still in the spiritual reality, or spiritual world. The only way to leave that spiritual place is to imagine us being somewhere else, in the material world. That imagining is aided by Maya, that creates the illusion of a non-spiritual virtual reality.

So we did not fall down, since we are still in the spiritual world, but we are trapped in the virtual reality of the material world. That entrapment in illusion, is what we call "falling down".

Now, the spiritual reality is a huge place, actually unlimited. We can occupy all kinds of positions, relationships and rasas. Prabhupada said that we should not worry about that too much, but just take the invitation to enter Krishna-lila.

The reason for our falldown, or that we entered the illusion of the material world, is that we desired something that is available here, and nowhere else. Something that is impossible to do, due to the nature of things, without being put into illusion of how things really are.

I would say that one of the most prominent things of the material world is our desire to be something that we are not, i.e. to be someone else, and to make others do our will against theirs. Both things are impossible in the pure non-illusory state, so both desires require the illusion of the material world to be fulfilled. Krishna can do both things, so we can call that to be envious of Krishna, to want to do what he can do and we can't. Now, even though Krishna can make us do things against our will, he does not. But we still want to do it, and find ourselves in the material illusion, where we can believe that we do.

Therefore, to get out of illusion, the most important things is to stop to desire to be something else then we are, and thus to become self-relalized of who we really are, and to stop desiring others to do what we want, and thus to become humble. To tolerate what others do to us, without desiring to do it to them, and to be humble and accept what we are and never want to force others to do are will, are two very important tools, since it directly attacks the very reason we came here in the first place.

I heard a lecture by Suhotra M. were he mentioned a quote from Prabhupada were he said that BRAHMAN is already a FALLEN position.

So you dont fall down from there. You fall from Vaikuntha, then from the impersonal brahman you degrade more and more to the point where you are here posting in this forum.
hehe

Sorry I only know that he mentioned it in a seminar called Philosophy of transcendence

but they drive us crazy!

Perhaps a more pertinent question might be: "Did Srila Prabhupada teach us that we fell from Vaikuntha, or Krishnaloka"?

Because in one sense it's a belief, a mental orientation. You can chant Hare Krishna and do sadhana thinking either that *you* fell from Krishnaloka (ala Prabhupada's instruction) or that you originated in the tatastha-sakti, ala Srila Sridhara Maharaja, following SBBST, or without thinking about that at all.

The important thing is to follow the mood of a ragatmika-bhakta, and the mood of Srila Prabhupada is one of "Krishnaloka is my home, I must return back to home, back to Godhead". As a nitya-siddha parsada that would be the reality of his situation and his internal realization, and we would do well to take shelter of that bhava.

Otherwise different Gaudiya Vaisnavas and different groups of Gaudiya Vaisnavas are doing their bhajan with various doctrinal understandings of the origin of "the jiva" (isn't there more than one?). All respect to them and to their understandings, and we also have our take, coming from our Srila Prabhupada.

Krsna says in BG that one who REACHES His abode never returns. Thus it is obvious to me that nobody falls from Vaikuntha. Some souls in the Viraja river of Brahmajyoti chose the bright bank (spiritual sky), some chose the dark bank (material world).

The nature of the soul is the basis of sambhandha jnana. When it is explained from the samkya or devotional analytical point of view, it should be clear that soul does not fall from vaikuntha. If the same sambandha jnana is explained in the perspective of abhideya in terms of practice of developing of the rasas, it is said that originally the soul is of neutral rasa and develops the rasa in the process of practice of bhakti. On the other hand from the point of view of prayodjana, all souls are originally Krishna conscious servants of Krishna, and a devotee of Radha Krishna sees all souls as originally servants of Radha. Thus the development of the basic sambandha presentation according to the context will change the nature of the answer, however it is clearly wrong to suggest that one is right and another is wrong. One needs to be able to accommodate all the above views, as all are ultimately right, as all lead to the same goal of life of the jiva. Without understanding the context of the presentation and the very same ultimate nature of the jiva, 'cut out quotes' are actually WRONG and confusing.