Social: should sunday feast be charged?

Seems like a widely spread practice nowadays.

Where do you guys learn history? :-)

Check out Radha Damodara Vilasa. In there Vyasaki relates the tale of some guys driving across country whose van broke down in front of the temple. Jayananda, who was a mechanic, came out and took a look at it. It would need a part from an auto parts store. It was Sunday, so they would have to wait for Monday. Jayananda, who was expert at engaging people in service, got them to come into the kitchen and cut up during the day, telling them about the amazing festival they were going to have.

The guys spent the day cutting vegetables and relishing the association of Jayananda, eagerly anticipating the feast that was coming.

As the time for the feast neared, they went over to their van to get changed. They came back to find Jayananda on the door. "That'll be $1.25 each," he said. That's the price that they charged at the LA temple at that time. Srila Prabhupada wrote (I believe it was to Tamal Krishna Goswami - it may be in Servant of a Servant, I'll have to check) to say that he was pleased that they were able to get people to appreciate Krishna Consciousness enough to pay to come, and that other temples should follow suit.

The boys were aghast. "But we just spent the whole day helping out!" they protested. Jayananda was unmoved. "$1.25 each". "We don't have any money," they boys countered, "only travellers cheques". Jayananda pointed them to a nearby gas station where they could change them.

Moral: Service is service. If you have money, then you should give it willingly. You should be encouraged to give it if you don't realize that you should give it willingly. There is nothing wrong with asking people for a fair contribution.

In his letters to Hansadutta re the World Sankirtan Party, Srila Prabhupada explained that there would be a sankirtan party and people would pay money, $25, for a ticket to come and listen to the kirtan concert.

There are other programs that Srila Prabhupada wanted, such as free prasadam distribution from the temple to people who come, but not charging for the Sunday Feast is not a Prabhupada instruction, and in fact he approved of Tamal Krishna's introduction of the charge in LA.

Tamal Krishna Maharaj innovation is not necessarily the best thing to do. Srila Prabhupada was very practical and he allowed many things that at the end, we westerners made into disasters, like money focused book distribution (another TKG innovation), etc

Srila Prabhupada himself never charged his Feasts at Matchless gifts, did he?

I have an argument that might interest you. I have practical experience in starting a (successful) temple from scratch. So I am not speaking on others information, but my own.

I NEVER charged Sunday Feast.
Lets see some arguments in favor of charging:

+ the costs of the bhoga should come from somewhere
+ people will appreciate more when they pay
+ you stop bums from coming

my view from experience:

Why we see Sunday Feast as an expense and buying a new car (for the temple) as an asset?

You should see the Sunday Feast as an asset not an expense. Krishna will reciprocate million-fold.

People will appreciate more in the case of a book, but the prasadam is our special purifying preaching secret weapon, and the use of this weapon is better for free

Why?

Apart from the purifying effect we all know, people feels so good and pampered that they automatically (or with time) want to do service and they feel that this free feast is out of the world , and it is!

People were asking how can you feed people like this and with this food quality and this friendship without asking for anything?

"Please let me do something"... I was asked many times.

That has such an effect in people with an unbelievable conversion ratio guest-->friend-->devotee

If people pays that becomes like a restaurant. I have seen people complaining that they wanted more samosas and they were none left (they payed for it, so they were naturally demanding)

Why devotees start charging feast?

I understand why. It is simple Rajo guna, Vaishya mentality, Money is the most important to advance KC.

Do not try to tell a vaishya that Krishna will provide, they just nod their heads and start a business. (for Krishna of course)

But the Sunday Feast seen as a business ruins the "magic" that it's needed to make devotees and uplift people's consciousness.

To stop bums. well a bum is going to come to a cheap nice food feast anyway. Is it a solution charge more? then you start escalating as a restaurant...

And besides, were not the majority of our honorable first disciples of SP bums, quasi bums or just crack-pot hippies?
Have we upgraded Lord Caitanya's standard of mercy?

Its more work to do that. It takes faith. You have to preach personally and be yourself a living example to really inspire people to do devotional service. But is that not the "normal" work of brahmanas?

From my practical experience, Free Sunday Feast is the way to go.

Need a system to sleep soundly in your sleeping bag without being haunted by receipts produced by the bhoga bill?

Here is a solution: Sponsor the Sunday Feast. Make a list of all the Sundays and people can choose to sponsor a given Sunday, maybe for a relative, a birthday or whatever. At the beginning of the Sunday Feast, you say aloud the name and purpose of the donor and jaya! everybody seated.. sarira avidya jal!

And, no, do not charge the sponsored feast, that is again coming from vaishya TP, "get the most of it" and in the mid-time you ruin the thing and left people (specially the sponsors) scratching their heads.

questions, comments and complains, please leave a message here :)

I agree with a number of your points Jagannatha. My point above is that the argument: "Charging for the Sunday Feast is against Srila Prabhupada's instructions" is not correct.

I think that the consciousness of the people doing the program is the important thing. Jayananda charged, as we see in the example I cited above, and Srila Prabhupada had him canonized as ISKCON's first saint! You can have terrible programs which are uncharged, with bums, no attention to guests, and freeloaders galore hanging off a few people who are maintaining the whole thing.

You can have terrible programs that are charged where the goal is simply to collect money (bucks are the basis), and there is no care for the people who come.

And you can have everything in between.

In his book, Super Sunday, Kaunteya das talks about the Sunday feast.

<shameless_plug>I also talked about it in my ebook "Preach on Purpose! The Sunday Feast" available here: http://www.atmayogi.com/files/Preach%20on%20Purpose.pdf </shameless_plug>

One point that Kaunteya made is that it doesn't even have to be on a Sunday. I remember people asking me during questions: "Obviously Sunday is a Holy Day for you..." I replied: "No, every day is Holy for us. It's just that Sunday is a traditional holiday and Holy Day in Christian countries, so we have this program on this day."

One thing that we've done here in Brisbane is to have two programs. We have one on Saturday night at the temple, which uses the sponsorship model that Jagannatha describes, and we also have one on Sunday night, which is our "Sunday feast", at Govindas. We charge for this one.

Prior to charging it would fill up with homeless people. Now that we charge we can get people who wouldn't necessarily be comfortable with homeless people.

As North Point Ministries demonstrate and clearly explain (see today's post on my trip to Buckhead Church in Atlanta: http://www.atmayogi.com/node/377): You can't be all things to all people in the same place at the same time. You have to make intelligent decisions about the people that you are serving, and give them an appropriate environment and appropriate message.

So we have a program for the homeless to take prasadam. We have a program at the temple that is sponsored and is community focused, and we have another program that is focused on reaching out, and we ask for people to give a contribution to attend that one, in order to fund it (yes there are other models, but this is one too), and in order to help filter the audience.

It's not that we are excluding people, we are consciously creating different environments for different audiences.

At the end of the day it comes back to the consciousness of the people doing it. A free feast can be a tamasic mess, lazy and irresponsible, and a charged feast can be rajasic and all about the bucks. Or either one can be a Vaikuntha experience for all participants. And I think there is room for both, and Srila Prabhupada did not mandate that it had to be one or the other.

I've gone full circle on this one. It took hard evidence to convince me that charging for the Sunday Feast was a worthwhile endeavor.

When i lived in Perth we'd have the feast at the Govinda's restaurant which was at a choice location in the city. It was free for years before I joined and for a few years after. Then a new TP comes onboard and wants to charge for the feast. I protested and complained thinking that we'd put people off.

This is what happened. Previously word was out that the Hari's gave away a mega banquet every Sunday evening. What would happen is that lots of drug addicts and derelicts would gather around the entrance of Govinda's smoking cigarettes. Not only would they not come in but they would make it a strange experience for anyone who did want to come in as they'd have to weave their way through a scary scene to get inside.

As a result our attendance was low anyway even when you counted the folks who liked the idea of free food so that they could spend more on drugs. They'd come in just in time for the feast - push their way to the front of the line before our favorable guests even had a chance. It was abrupt and made most people there uncomfortable. Devotees tolerated because we wanted to be 'compassionate' and let everyone take prasadam. I thought this way too - so when the new TP started charging I was miffed.

What happened was great though. The bums and druggies instantly vanished. Then the interested people who came started coming back week after week. Pretty soon a really good program that everyone looked forward to emerged. The classes were quality and the questions and answers were intelligent. Devotees in the community started seeing it as a favorable place to invite guests from work, friends from school, etc ....

I think they only charged $5. Anyone in Australia can afford $5 - we aren't a poverty stricken country. It'd be like $3 in the USA. That's less than a burger isn't it? For a huge 7 or more course prasadam meal served hot. What a bargain.

So now I swear by it. If you preach in the city - charge for the feast. respectable people are happy to pay. If you want to save the druggies and bums then start up another program with sponsored prasadam.

"Charging for the Sunday Feast is against Srila Prabhupada's instructions" I did not say that.

Jayanandana doings cannot be extrapolated to what is right now and common sense. Canonizing someone doesn't mean you mimick them, you follow example.

Listen to this one please,

Many years ago, in Barcelona temple there was an argument between the temple devotees about the Sunday feast.

Some Prabhujis argued that there were some people coming to Sunday Feast for years (certainly they were some coming for 20+ years!
and they came only to eat. The proposal was to give them the ticket, the highway

I was opposed and argued that the responsibility of them not advancing was of the devotees, and started a program as follows

after the regular Sunday feast basic class it was announced that "there is a special program with deeper topics of KC for those further interested."

It was done in a separate room, and alas! the "free loaders" came. It began with a collective japa round, that is, all presents chanting at once 1 round of hare Krishna mantra, followed by that day I remember, a brief explanation of the 10 offenses.

You would be amazed at the questions and interest these "freeloaders" had, if the opportunity was given, and it came out some questions about Upadeshamrta (who could think these people read a book!.

It was just that they were not assisted for 20+ years and then conspired to throw them out.!!!

For the real freeloaders (there are a few) you always have the moral right (because you do not charge, remember?) to tell them to help in some capacity after some time.,all within the boundaries of civil relations, and even those, we should think their service is taking prasadam and one day they will come to the platform of other services.

And that is the only way they can one day be participating in some other proactive service.

Generally prasadam distribution should be considered as an end on itself without ulterior motive, other than sincerely worry about the spiritual advancement of your guests and try to uplift them on e step at at time,

Suppose a city has 3 million people, 30 people come to prasadam, 5 of them hippies and you throw them out. They should be considered special people. The only strict rule I put is cleanliness. If people came unclean I stopped them at the door and politely explained the rule. Gave them a plate of prasadam and they could take outside.

No dramas, and next Sunday you could see the hippieland groomed, neat and clean ready for the inside Sunday Feast .

"You can have this or that" but we are talking about something ideal and very easily done, no need for the "in-betweens".

With all respects to you and you preaching strategies, "Srila Prabhupada did not mandate that it had to be one or the other." argument is baseless. You can say that about so many nonsense things too.

I remember having a separate room for hippie types, sometimes 50 % of the guests, but that can be easily arranged but the principle is that hippies are on a high end of our reaching program, they are the ones usually w/o responsibilities and easier to join out temple.

If you just set a charity form them, they cannot be "reached" with the same quality (and respect) as at the Sunday feast program.

Hippies are not in the category of indigents as we like to think (to ease our responsibility ?). The are a very nice source of clean shaved, nail cut "potwashers-sankirtaners-infuturetemplepresidents" Prabhus.

If the mood is nice, caring, etc and still they charge, why not implementing what I say, to make it even nicer?

If all your problem is bums, drugadicts and derelicts, then is your mismanagement. 2 bads (bum interruption, then charging feast) cannot give a "good".
Have you though of other solutions?

My experience in AU is that even bums can pay $5. So what drove them away (positive in your view, a disaster in mine) wasn't probably the price.

If you give free, then you have the moral right to arrange and command people for a peaceful program for everyone. I explained some tips on my above post. I had this experience too, and I managed to accommodate everybody.

And, what happens if the hippies outnumber the "normal".? are you going to throw away the "normals".

I think trying to get rid of people is anti-mercy. Then talk about maha-vadanya, saviour of the most fallen, etc etc

It becomes meaningless.

I'm not saying to dis the bums and druggies or neglect them. I'm just saying to make a separate program for them. They can come to another program where the prasad is free and they can hang outside and smoke and avoid taking baths all they like. That way they feel comfortable and the people who are interested in our philosophy and practices can feel comfortable. What's wrong with that?

How is making a program where a socially functional person has to sit next to a stinky drug addict the only way to show compassion? Why not show more compassion and accommodate the different groups according to their interests?

And yes - I was happy that the druggies who just rocked up to eat and sneer at the devotees stopped coming to disturb the Sunday Feast. They still came to the evening serve out at the restaurant and got prasad there 5 days a week. I remember one character in particular - he never wore a shirt (even in winter) and he had a mohawk that stood over a foot high on his head. he stank and was a smack addict with tracks from shooting up all over his arms. practically anytime a devotee would speak to him he'd react aggressively - totally forgetful and ungrateful for the meal we gave him. He was just making a disturbance and would insult the prasad if it wasn't to his liking that day. When we charged $5 he stopped coming - but he still came nearly every weeknight to the evening charity serve out. There he could get what he wanted without the hassle of the devotees trying to do Krishna Consiousness and preach to guests -> something he avoided would even go out of his way to disrupt.

I'm not saying that charging for the feast is the only way to go. If you can run a functional program without charging then that is to your credit. There sure isn't anything wrong with charging though - and like i said - personally, i swear by it.


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Just see how different natures of devotees are manifested in different focuses regarding the Sunday feast:

Vaisnava - give mercy to all
Brahmana - educate (quality lectures)
Ksatriya - organize (separate programs, etc.)
Vaisya - get as much money as possible (prominent VIP/sponsor arrangements)
Sudra - do it out of duty (but without real interest and care)

I think it's so rare that someone is giving something for free that we should not charge for the feast.
people understand this as an act of love and that is the easiest way of stealing their hearts :)

ekendra, we can hardly have ONE feast and now we have to have TWO. The rest I already said it all.

If anyone reading this is really determined that the Sunday feast should always be free and that to charge a minimal fee for it is evil then they can prove it here:

http://www.newgovardhana.net/node/158

A sunday feast at our temple costs around $250 in bhoga to put on. So get out your credit cards and make a statement that the feast should be free.

The sunday feast here in NG is free. the previous post was about the Perth temple. the program here tries to be sensitive to new-comers but really serves as a weekly worship service for the 1000+ devotee population in the surrounding area. they get people to sponsor them - usually Hindus but not always.

i hope nobody here has 'asking-for-money-phobia'. its curable though - a bit of book distribution helps. you'd be surprised how many people out there like to give charitably to a good cause. we just have to be honest and transparent with what we do with the laxmi.

also i hear a lot of devotees say "Krishna will bring the money." That's true but it doesn't necessarily follow that we can't provide a way for people to actually donate. there has to be a way for the money to come in. Are we expecting it to magically appear in the temple bank account? I'd like to hear some stories if you've heard of it happening.

Srila Prabhupada was practical he didn't avoid asking for money out of some phobia or sentiment. Preaching costs money. Even a simple 'chanting in the park' program costs money to set up and pay for fuel to get there. That's reality.

There is a really great story about how Srila Prabhupada met with Gargamuni and Brahmananda's mother. Anyone suffering from donate-a-phobia should read it. I can post it here later. I don't have the vedabase installed on this laptop.

"If I had to choose 'asking-for-money-phobia' vs 'money-focused-mania' I would prefer the first. :)"

me too. much better than 'bucks are basis' and dishonest means of obtaining $$. that we agree on!

again, get off the money grabbing consciousness at the Sunday Feast!!! We want them, not their money!!!

Hare Krishna and Hari Bol
Charging $250 for a Sunday feast is really a luxury( ref. Prabhu Ekendra on 17 Aug). This is even higher than the cost of a buffet in a seven star hotel. ISKCON may possess adequate funds and enough as a corpus but we are certainly not so rich to spend this much for an individual's Sunday feast! Sunday congregation is mainly for the bhaktas, who cannot come to the temple everyday because of their other commitments and cannot attend morning and afternoon pravachans. Such bhaktas come on Sundays and leave wiser after the weekly preachings and conventions. I have been attending such Sunday congregations in most of the ISKCON temples( Juhu, Ahmedabad, Kolkata, Bangalore, Delhi, Pune and also at many other places in the country and abroad- Melbourne) but was never charged. Though the prasadams at these places did vary in quantity. Juhu feast possibly the costliest and at some place, it used to be bhog prasadam(khichudi) in a dona. I did not notice any bhakta grumbling on this issue at all. Some bhaktas who used to visit with their families for the pravachans on Sundays used to pay donations also for the seva of Lords or for some other heads.
When we have successfully propagated "Food for Life" and "Akshay Patra" , the question of charging for Sunday feast does not arise at all. Since all the bhaktas have paid for the organization(ISKCON) in some way or the other earlier also, they should be gracefully invited by the organizers. It is purely upto the organizers that what shall be the a-la-carte for the Sunday congregation and it should be suitably budgeted. Some one should certainly be accountable and responsible to assess as to what shall be the quantum of congregation so that the food is not unnecessarily wasted. However,charging the accompaniments of the members or the guests for bhog prasadams on days other than Sundays is logical and no one has ever refuted this.
Neelima Ghosh

Yes, Neelima, it is the cost of the complete feast.
Still the tendency is to overcharge the feast sponsorship. I myself remember the real cost of the Sunday Feast at New Govardhan (being sometimes the cook) and the vaishya tendency of the TP to overcharge to make extra money. :(

How much you paid for writing this comment? (Metaphorically)

Actually in my humble experience within ISKCON since 1979,devotees usually start charging because temple devotees become lazy or sad vegans or both who refuse to serve full time.
The bramacari's get married because they are sitting around listening to women lecturing to them.Having established their female supremacy,such temple presidents while sitting on the vyasasan find new ways on how to ban iskcon devotees from their small yoga centres.Especially those errant persons who don't follow their guru.
Free once again to delve deeper into the mundane they extrapolate srila Prabhupada's ''new improved'' teachings .Sagaciously they hope this will one day be accepted as the norm by those who presently mistakenly believe krishna was a butter theif and srila Prabhupada also ate pure ghee.Further enlightened by new friends like the head of the new Zealand vegan society,who believe cows are destroying the planet by farting and should be done away with they stay aloof from devotee association in case they fall from imagined heights.All at $4.00 a head ....but no ghee.