but you are already predispositioned to reject whatever we say so what is the use of trying to convince you?

mishra:

Are you prepared to experiment on yourself what we are going to tell you?

That sounds a bit scary. Experimentation with myself?

Still, I want to be sure that you know that I'm seriously challenging you to a debate here.

I'm not planning to dispose of your points with dismissive rhetoric.

If you make a good point - I'll acknowledge it.

I'd just expect the same in return. Don't brush over my points with dogmatic religious speech and this could be interesting.

You have to accept Krishna's process by which he can be known. That's all. It is completely possible to directly experience the existence of God, just as you can directly experience your hunger and its satiation when you eat. You follow the process that Krishna gives, and you get direct perception of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

What is the difficulty?

You want science - do the experiment. :-)

First, allow me a question, for your name I venture that you have been a "devotee" some time ago, meaning you already practiced?

Or you just picked the name from one of our flamed preachers?

I'm a devotee of me. Always have been. I picked the name from what I hear Hare Krishna's refer to anyone but themselves as.

How does that relate to the question at hand 'Does God exist?'

(1) Atheists are evolutionists who worship Darwin.
(2) See, everyone needs to worship a god, even Atheists.
(3) Therefore, God exists.
more
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

sure. I can visit back over several days. As long as the discussion doesn't go the way of 'You gotta just believe!!!'

that kind of 'turn or burn' stuff is what makes religion so problematic in the world today.

Stinking Karmi Demon:

sure. I can visit back over several days. As long as the discussion doesn't go the way of 'You gotta just believe!!!'

that kind of 'turn or burn' stuff is what makes religion so problematic in the world today.

I agree. See you later.

I accept verifiable as a criteria for us to use

however

if we accept "that I can experience" we might have some trouble because you won't believe our experience so how is it that we should believe yours? We obviously need some better criteria to gain agreement on.

I could accept that you need to understand it but I cannot accept that your experience is a criteria for my belief system.

Is there another criteria we can use. At the moment we are limited. It is difficult to make a point without accepted criteria for making it. What other kinds of evidence might you accept. Let us know.

The devotees here can surely give you sound arguments.

The question will then be evident: "Can you accept those sound arguments?"

At the moment they are just trying to determine where to put the arguments - in other words 'what level of consciousness have you 'evolved' to" - then they will discuss with you on that level. (This is just out of courtesy so as to not waste yours or their time.)

Thanks for visiting. I look forward to hearing the points discussed.

Dear demon, this is what your science has to say:

"Do you know that Darwin's theory of evolution is derived from the Newtonian worldview? Do you know that from the standpoint of the quantum physical worldview, Darwinian evolution stands upon no scientific foundation whatsoever?"

"Orthodox Darwinian position is that the events of nature give rise to consciousness. Hence consciousness depends upon nature, not vice versa. But quantum mechanics, when understood free of the deception tagged by Hoyle, may point to the opposite conclusion: the events of nature are completely dependent upon consciousness. Indeed, this is the Vedic conclusion."

http://www.suhotraprabhu.com/in2-mec/index.php?p=J031222

[youtube]zaKryi3605g[/youtube]

your hero defeated

..follow the four regulative princples,chant 16 good rounds,see for yourself.

Gour Govinda Maharaja has said, "If you are chanting the pure name or remembering the pure name, you will immediately see the beautiful form of Syamasundara. It will be manifest before you. That is the test that you are chanting the pure name; you will see Syamasundara immediately..."
So, Stinking Karmi Demon, are you chanting purely?

i think he became a devotee and is rendering service at his local temple or he just ran away from us.

Just as you can't prove God doesn't exist, one cannot prove He does. Jr. high school debate tactic.

I wanted to know about the picture of Satan next to his name. I was wondering if he believes in Satan and if so, why not god. I ran into a so-called atheist once who believed in Satan and I asked him this same question. He could not answer and the conversation ended.

Dear Demon,

Waiting for you, when you so wish...

On: time, death, digestion, love, heat, rain, forgetting, knowledge, authority, etc.

*Have you noticed that no matter what, time marches on? We can neither stop it nor get it back.

The Blessed Lord said: Time I am, destroyer of the worlds, and I have come to engage all people.
Srimad Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter 11, Verse 32.

*Are you aware that every living thing will have to die?

I am immortality, and I am also death personified.
Srimad Bhagavad Gita Chapter 9, Verse 19.

*If it is too hot, you cover your body or turn on the heat, but you cannot change the weather; if there is too much rain you must get to safety, if there is no rain, you must wait for it.

O Arjuna, I control heat, the rain and the drought.
Srimad Bhagavad Gita Chapter 9, Verse 19.

*Where does love come from?
Of procreators I am Kandarpa, the god of love.
Chapter 10, Verse 28.

*How does your body digest the food you eat?

I am the fire of digestion in every living body, and I am the air of life, outgoing and incoming, by which I digest the four kinds of foodstuff.
Chapter 15, Verse 14.

*Why do you forget or remember anything?

I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness.
Chapter 15, Verse 15.

*Why is mother compared to knowledge about God?
Child, who is a by-product of parent's coupling, does not know who impregnated his mother, he has not choice but to accept her authority as to who his father is.

Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin, for, in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages.
Chapter 10, Verse 2.

*Actually, we control very little. We didn't chose to be born, we don't want to get diseases, we do not want to get old, weak and dependent and we will try to avoid dying if possible. These are unwanted problems in life. Evidence of a Supreme Controller who controls everything is all around us. It is up to us to chose what kind of relationship we want with Him--loving, protected or angry, fearful.

Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter 8. Attaining the Supreme
TEXT 22

purusah sa parah partha
bhaktya labhyas tv ananyaya
yasyantah-sthani bhutani
yena sarvam idam tatam

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is greater than all, is attainable by unalloyed devotion. Although He is present in His abode, He is all-pervading, and everything is situated within Him.

PURPORT by His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada

It is here clearly stated that the supreme destination from which there is no return is the abode of Krsna, the Supreme Person. The Brahma-samhita describes this supreme abode as ananda-cinmaya-rasa, a place where everything is full of spiritual bliss. Whatever variegatedness is manifest there is all of the quality of spiritual bliss--there is nothing material. All variegatedness is expanded as the spiritual expansion of the Supreme Godhead Himself, for the manifestation there is totally of the spiritual energy, as explained in Chapter Seven. As far as this material world is concerned, although the Lord is always in His supreme abode, He is nonetheless all-pervading by His material energy. So by His spiritual and material energies He is present everywhere--both in the material and in the spiritual universes. Yasyantah-sthani means that everything is sustained by Him, whether it be spiritual or material energy.
It is clearly stated here that only by bhakti, or devotional service, can one enter into the Vaikuntha (spiritual) planetary system. In all the Vaikunthas there is only one Supreme Godhead, Krsna, who has expanded Himself into millions and millions of plenary expansions. These plenary expansions are four-armed, and They preside over the innumerable spiritual planets. They are known by a variety of names--Purusottama, Trivikrama, Kesava, Madhava, Aniruddha, Hrsikesa, Sankarsana, Pradyumna, Sridhara, Vasudeva, Damodara, Janardana, Narayana, Vamana, Padmanabha, etc. These plenary expansions are likened unto the leaves of a tree, and the main tree is likened to Krsna. Krsna, dwelling in Goloka Vrndavana, His supreme abode, systematically conducts all affairs of both universes (material and spiritual) without a flaw by power of His all-pervasiveness.

Hello again!

Can't perceive something with our senses? Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Take our minds, for example. No one has seen a mind but we know it exists due to evidence of the result of its working. Similarly, radio waves have never been seen by us, but we understand they do exist by listening to the radio. Ever see electricity? But you use it? Effect is the only evidence we have that they exist, but it is valid and conclusive. Read on

na ca mat-sthani bhutani
pasya me yogam aisvaram
bhuta-bhrn na ca bhuta-stho
mamatma bhuta-bhavanah

“And yet everything that is created does not rest in Me. Behold My mystic opulence. Although I am the maintainer of all living entities and although I am everywhere, still My Self is the very source of creation.” (Bg. 9.5)

Although all beings in the universe are resting in Krsna’s energy, still they are not in Him. Krsna is maintaining all living entities, and His energy is all-pervading, yet He is elsewhere. This is Krsna’s inconceivable mystic power. He is everywhere, yet He is aloof from everything. We can perceive his energy, but we cannot see Him because He cannot be seen with material eyes. However, when we develop our spiritual qualities, we sanctify our senses so that even within this energy we can see Him. ELECTRICITY, for instance, is everywhere, and an electrician is capable of utilizing it. Similarly, the energy of the Supreme Lord is everywhere, and when we become transcendentally situated, we can see God eye to eye everywhere. That spiritualization of the senses is possible through devotional service and love of God. The Lord is all-pervading all over the universe and is within the soul, the heart, water, air,everywhere. Thus if we make an image of God in anything,clay, stone, wood or whatever,it should not be considered to be just a doll. That also is God. If we have sufficient devotion, the image will also speak to us.

by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada from Raja Vidya, The King of Knowledge

I have to say. The responses given here are far more thought provoking than what I've received from other religious forums.

In response to maah! (nice pic by the way) - true there are many things in this world that I have taken on faith - as a child I learned almost everything from my mother and father. I had no personal means of accepting that, for instance, the sun wasn't actually following us when we went on car trips (i could have sworn it did when i was 5). I just had to take Dad's word for it.

The weak part of this argument is that at some point I evolved into a mature (well, kinda) adult and could perceive and verify information myself or ascertain the credibility of my sources for information. Religious groups, and I don't think you are an exception, always get stuck here by dismissing what can be verified by reason or direct perception in preference to a doctrine or, even more frighteningly, a 'divine revelation'.

The passage you quoted by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada is suggesting that I could make an image of God out of 'whatever' and it becomes God. This is difficult for me to understand. Can I stack beer cans after a party and fall prostrated before my altar and expect them to speak to me? Tell you what - I'll try and get back to you with the results. ("I once was blind but now I see.")

From my perspective this confirms the flimsy ground on which faith mongers stand. There are real problems in the world. How can they be solved by making an 'image of God in anything,clay, stone, wood or whatever' and hoping that 'If we have sufficient devotion, the image will also speak to us.'

It reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw once "I do everything my rice crispies tell me."

> Don't you bar people other than Hare Krishnas to your temples?

Nope. We only bar Hare Krishnas, all others are welcome...:-)

It is very nice that you are inquiring about the Supreme Lord. It is the most important duty in human life. Everyone experiences God in some form. For the determined Atheist, He is experienced as ultimate death.
Wanting to see God is something like wanting to meet with any very important person, except that God is the most important person. What would happen if any of us ordinary persons wanted to meet the president of the US. or even a big corporate executive or a Mafia Don? Immediately, those surrounding these important persons are trained to question our intentions. In most cases, sincere as we might be, meeting with these types would never occur. So the Supreme Lord also has His screening process. One must be absolutely sincere, otherwise such experience will never occur. This is a gradual process , like peeling off the layers of an onion. Thank you for beginning the process. Wishing you profound success.

> Don't you bar people other than Hare Krishnas to your temples?


I'm REALLY shocked that anyone would think this. How abominable would that be?

Hello again,

Hare Krishna.

"The weak part of this argument is that at some point I evolved into a mature (well, kinda) adult and could perceive and verify information myself or ascertain the credibility of my sources for information. "

The problem with this consideration is that even a mature adult is not perfect. Sri Isopanisad states: "A living being who lives in the mundane world has four defects: (1) he is certain to commit mistakes; (2) he is subject to illusion; (3) he has a propensity to cheat others; and (4) his senses are imperfect. No one with these four imperfections can deliver perfect knowledge."

"Religious groups, and I don't think you are an exception, always get stuck here by dismissing what can be verified by reason or direct perception in preference to a doctrine or, even more frighteningly, a 'divine revelation'.

Could you be more specific?

"The passage you quoted by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada is suggesting that I could make an image of God out of 'whatever' and it becomes God. This is difficult for me to understand."

When His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada speaks of making an image of God, in other places he explains what the Vedic image should traditionally be made of and what it should look like. According to the Vedas and other religious books, the Supreme is all-pervading and full of all potencies. If a pious soul wants to offer loving service to He Who is beyond the reach of our limited, imperfect senses, He kindly arranges to accept our service and love through His non-moving image since we are already familiar with what loving service is with the moving images of our family and friends. All energy emanates from Him, for Him, spiritual and material are non-different. Different religions have different ideas of what image is correct. Some worship holy books, some symbols, some paintings, some holy names, some combinations of several. What matters is that the soul wants to connect with its source and superior, Who is everywhere. Take Prayer. Many pious people from all walks of life and even those who do not identify with any particular religion, pray regularly or when they desire an outcome they are not able to effect themselves. Many testify that their prayers are answered. This has been going on perpetually. There would be no point in praying unless there was a need and Someone listens and responds. It is not so difficult to understand that it is attitude which brings about the response from the Supreme through whatever form the soul has faith in.

"There are real problems in the world. How can they be solved by making an 'image of God in anything,clay, stone, wood or whatever' and hoping that 'If we have sufficient devotion, the image will also speak to us.'

There are real problems in the world but most people are not willing to take a cold, hard look at the number one problem of their life, which is their impending death. Solve this number one problem and other pressing problems like fear, stress, disease, and old age are also solved.

The question, "Can you show me one scrap of evidence that God exists?" may not be the best way to advance your knowledge of what lies beyond the senses. Put God aside for a little while. Srila Prabhupada's books like Bhagavad Gita As It Is and Sri Isopanisad teach the science of the self and Superself, material nature, karma, time, and their interactions. If you want real satisfaction for your mind, intelligence, ego and soul, just try to understand these things first, at least you will become wise and peaceful.

Kind regards,