Wasn't that already discussed? In short: frustration, offenses and resulting mayayapahrta jnana.

Well, to claim that Prabhupada instituted an apasiddhanta and ISKCON should thus become an apasampradaya seems pretty much offensive to me.

I didn't elaborate on the causes, neither am I condemning. I just stick to facts. Some causes may be genuine as you mention but apasiddhanta is not a solution. It can only make things worse.

To blame (in various degrees): false ego, immaturity, ignorance, mistreatment, etc.

don't agree with tusiananda das:

you don't become known as a ritvik by blowing whistles or criticizing the powers that be; you become known as a ritvik by claiming that you don't need a living guru but can take initiation from srila prabhupada without him being present on the planet anymore.

this is pure nonsense, as anybody who's read one of SP's major books (and understood them) can tell you.

of course it's best to take initiation from a maha-bhagavata or uttama-adhikari who's almost impossible to fall down. but that's not the criteria for guruship given by SP (he knew his disciples and has seen some of them fall down in his lifetime).

the criteria for being a guru is that you follow strictly your guru's instructions and act as transparent medium for them. if, at some point in time the guru stops following, then he can't be accepted as a guru anymore and one has to look for shelter elsewhere. obviously that's not the very best situation, but that we are here, in these circumstances, is due to our own karma. otherwise we might have been born as associates of caitanya mahaprabhu or krsna himself. bums who we are, we chose to stick around in the material world a bit longer and now we have to live with the circumstances we find and make the best of it.

trying to change sastra by proclaiming that a living guru isn't necessary because we are fried with some of them isn't the way out of this situation.

but what surprises me is that after understanding SP books, giving lectures and everything they can adopt such a strange philosophy.

and as far as i know things are not all roses in the ritvik camp and they are also fragmenting into different types of ritviks.

strange.

Tulsiananda das:

...so the question actually is " How do ISKCON devotees become a priest who officiates at a sacrifice ".

well, you know what i mean by ritvik. not the old sanskrit meaning but one who formerly accepted a guru and then changed his mind and his understanding of the philosophy because of being fried by ____ (fill in the blanks)

I find it so strange that we can accept a system were a guru can fall down & we think we have a perfect system?
When so many gurus have fallen down that's what makes people think ritvik system could be right, because if the ritvik falls it is not such a big deal as a guru who you have surrendered your life to, falls down .

Another good point( or should i say bad point) by mishra about rubber stamping gurus. So from the mistake of the zonal guru system are the gbc just willing to continue making mistakes.

I agree that the parampara system given to us by the lord makes perfect sense, but the system we have in place at present does not seem very perfect. The gurus track record speaks for itself.

the system is perfect, but it has to work with imperfect people (devotees), and that's not really a surprise. why would narahari thakur [name?] specify the procedures for rejecting a guru if he didn't expect that to happen? during caitanya mahaprabhu's lifetime and shortly after, these were very rare occasions, but the acaryas knew that kali-yuga was progressing, and that human failure, even among vaisnava devotees, would become more frequent.

that isn't very nice, to be sure, but most things in kali-yuga aren't; and things are going to get a lot worse. we can hope and pray for our present gurus to maintain their vows and service and help them by not committing offenses they also have to suffer for. and we can hope and pray for srila prabhupada or a vaisnava of his calibre to take care of us again.

but sometimes i'm not sure if we wouldn't criticize such a maha-bhagavata as well, for some perceived slight on his part. perhaps we just aren't qualified for the association of devotees like srila prabhupada?

in any case, the 'perfect system' provides procedures to deal with issues like a guru falling down. instead of inventing a new system, i'm afraid we'll have to stick with the perfect one, if we like it or not.

there isn't anything, really, to stop _any_ of us from becoming a perfect devotee and guru ourselves, you know? SP said it could be done within one life-time. the only thing stopping us is our own mind, our lack of intelligence, and our desire for so many things apart from bhakti.

it "may make a lot of sense" to a lot of devotees, for different reasons, but that's not what is important. the important thing is what made sense to srila prabhupada and the vaisnava acaryas before him, and that was not the ritvik-system.

a ritvik is a priest officiating for another person - but that person has to be living, present here in his body.

otherwise i might decide to take initiation from lord brahma, putting me much above srila prabhupada and even lord caitanya in the sampradaya, and decide that from now on we worhip radha as the supreme. she, after all, is the one who rules krsna by her love, so actually she's in charge.

if presented 'properly,' this might make a lot of sense to a lot of people, too ...

that won't work very well in 'straight' temples, trying to get respect as SP disciple by accepting ritvik-initiation; rather the opposite.

and in ritvik-temples everybody's supposed to take initiation from SP, so that won't help to become one of the elite, either.

"perceived elite domination," i can understand that in case of SP disciples who aren't really qualified for what they are doing, or not following, etc. but there is an injuction, saying that you should offer your guru's godbrothers respect equal to him.

"respect" doesn't necessarily translate into obedience when the person doesn't know what he's doing, of course. but there is a distinction between SP disciples and grand-disciples.

while they were helping SP starting ISKCON and learning from him to be vaisnavas, i was running around in berlin, getting drunk, and talking and doing a lot of nonsense. now who's fault is that?

i'm speculating here; the only thing i really remember is that - at least some of them, there are different camps among the 'ritviks,' too - place their japa-malas in front of SP's deity overnight.

the term 'ritvik' suggests that a person must be performing the ceremony on behalf of SP, so an ipod alone probably won't do. (did you look in apple-mac's help pages? perhaps there's a program you can download ...)

...message for Abhiram Prabhu : " well, you know what i mean by ritvik " sorry Prabhu, actually I don't,nobody does.

" Can i just take an ipod and initiate myself or anyone i want then? " can't initiate yourself,I know that's not allowed.But if you are a Temple President
you can recommend.

Yes, these are the only ones who could claim any written appointment (even though apasiddhantic in case of post-tirobhava). Every other ritvik 'initiator' is an impostor from the beginning.

After the disappearance of BSST his disciples straightly rejected the ritvik idea mentioned by someone at that time. Those who can't do the same show their level of understanding of sastra and tradition. These are the Vedic criteria, not 'what makes a lot of sense'.

From the karmic point of view it's better to be a vikarmi than an aparadhi. (Purport: This doesn't suggest to become a vikarmi, it's just a comparison of the two.)

..." someone says that the parampara ended with Srila Prabhupada " no one is saying that,I have never seen or heard anyone say that,everyone one knows the
parampara is eternal.How the parampara will continue will be revealed in time.It is not something to be concocted by a handfull of Prabhupada discples.

Prabhupada clearly defined the role of "ritvik" in His letter of July 9TH. Abhiram prabhu,
Srila Prabhupada is your Guru. Wether you choose to accept Him as such is entirely your choice. However, this is the fact of the matter put quite simply. When, as you say,"my first guru" fell down. No. He was acting on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. Therefore, you are most certainly Srila Prabhupada's disciple as long as you follow His instructions. Everything is there. In Prabhupada's books, everything is there. You simply accept. That's all. Prabhupada is your Guru Maharaja. your servant, Priya

Haribol! I'm new to this site and am impressed with the variety of interesting subjects that you are discussing. Recently I've been involved in a forum with several senior devotees, including GBC's, gurus and ex-gurus discussing the rtvik issue. The fact is that when Srila Prabhupada was asked how initiations would be conducted in the future, particularly after his disappearance, he said that he would appoint officiating acarayas.

At the same time, he definately wanted his disciples to "actually become guru", but cautioned that it should be "on my order." Srila Prabhupada is still with us, and is capable of ordering a qualified disciple to "actually become guru." However, vaisnava etiquette would suggest that anyone accepting disciples should do it outside ISKCON, which is Srila Prabhupada's ashram. Within ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada is the ultimate authority, or should be, anyway. Having two seperate lines of authority, ISKCON and guru, doesn't make sense. Prabhupada wanted all ISKCON officers to swear an Oath of Allegiance, too. I can provide the text of the Oath if anyone is interested.

Is anyone familiar with the legal document, "Direction of Management" (DOM)? It is the ISKCON Constitution written by Srila Prabhupada, and has been amazingly neglected/rejected. If DOM were followed, there wouldn't be such confusion about simply following Srila Prabhupada's instructions.

Anuttama prabhu, there is a conversation thread titled "Does the "Direction of Management" (DOM) document apply today?" you might want to read through.

Satsvarupa: ... Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you're no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas.
Tamala Krsna: Is that called rtvik-acarya?
Prabhupada: Rtvik, yes.
Satsvarupa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the...
Prabhupada: He's guru. He's guru.
Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order... Amara ajnaya guru hana. Be actually guru, but by my order.
Satsvarupa: So they may also be considered your disciples.
Prabhupada: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider whose?

anuttama:

The above conversation is very clear. Srila Prabhupada says, "yes, they are disciples. Why consider whose?" and he also says, "be actually guru, but by my order." For myself, I wouldn't dare to take a disciple unless ordered to do so by Srila Prabhupada. In our sampradaya, the spiritual master is worshipped on the same level as Krsna. It takes a great deal of purity to accept such worship without becoming illusioned.

Initiation is just a ritual;the most difficult is to follow the rules!
So many were personally initiated by Srila Prahupada,but where are they now?Mass initiation,christian style by priests-ritviks- may be excellent,mainly for children,who are now surrounded by all sorts of drug addiction/pornography and gambling,and I believe that such promise at the age of seven would be nice for their spiritual life.The present initiation process is only for a very small minority,and so the mass will not profit from Lord Gauranga's instruction:become all of you spiritual masters! Just like the Amish community,further brahminical initiation can be given when one has show such propensity and qualities.At age of seven,the sex regulation is not necessary!Maybe another formality at 12 for this?
History has shown that the worship as God,for ordinary humans,is detrimental for them,as there are too much wealth and fame involved:it invites cheating and fights among different disciples and zones!
Only qualified brahmins[by different exams,established by the Founder],leading an exemplary life should give Bhagavatam class,though even illiterates can be gurus by exemple.
If a census is carried out, we'll be able to observe that 99% of preaching is still to be done around the world,and so,an army of preachers are required for this holy mission,that can't be done without some organization.
The other faiths are very busy planning scientifically their strategy for spreading worldwide,destroying the emergent vaisnavism,considered infidels both by christians and muslims,as we worship "idols".It's not impossible that they have infiltrated this movement in order to destroy it!
We should dare to take disciples,and share the burden of sinful disciples,and not treat Srila Prabhupada like an eternal dustbin for all sins for a further 9,500 yrs!
If the guru is pure,such responsibility will not be so heavy,as eventually the reactions is taken by the Lord himself,through disciplic succession,but the personal loving care of a guru can change the worst of criminals into vaisnavas,while non-genuine materialistic gurus,only interested in exploiting his disciples's money and body,can only deter them from Krishna.So,it's better to have a simple and sincere devotee as a guide,rather than such persons.Such relationship is so rewarding and full of bliss,as it is purely spiritual,and only those who are sincere can experience it. Anyone,following the instructions of the pure devotee,can qualify to become also a pure devotee,in time,and thus be able to deliver others under his/her care!
There's no need to hunt for disciples[websites/jet-setting],as Krishna will send them automatically.
Pure devotees will always be rare,but everyone should get a chance to hear the philosophy or chant Hare Krishna...even once!

Those still attached to Allah/Jesus/Jehovah or other,can also progress,if they chant these Names,but they should become vegetarians and follow the other rules as well.Many hindus are still meat-eaters,but chant Hare Krishna....and so,will be slow to progress.We should not force these people,through food distribution in schools,to accept krishna prasadam,as they can also offer it to Jesus/Allah!
It's the same God!