Philosophy: How do ISKCON devotees become ritviks?

I have seen it happen a few times. Senior devotees that suddently know more than their spiritual master and jump over him to be initiated by Prabhupada.

how and why does this happen?

maybe some are not offensive (meaning to Srila Prabhupada) and are doing well in the scope of their spiritual life... why not?
For sure THIS is one of the reasons they might be gone to not return, our condemning party spirit
I had the opportunity in AU to ask a few of them personally (AU is big time NM conversion desha).
The response in general is because they got mistreated by our leaders. I have a few horror stories about this.
So, who to blame? It' s always easier to put all blame on the departed devotees. Your skin is safe.

There are two prominent ways an Iskcon initiate can become labeled " ritvik ".The first way is very common in Iskcon,this happens when someone is a "whistle blower "
or complains about the GBC or local temple administrators,he or she is then painted with the " Iskcon poop-brush " and thus becomes " ritvik " over night.This
is what happened to Rocana das of Sampradaya Sun recently,Rabindra Svarupa has to paint Rocana " ritvik " in an effort to stop devotees from reading his site.

Iskcon's so called leaders have taken the sanskrit word " ritvik " and turned it into a word meaning " meant to be ostracized ", very offensive indeed.

The second method is when a bell goes off in the devotees mind and he thinks " hey wait a minute,real gurus don't fall down and bloop ",or they have a moment
of enlightenment and realize that Sri Krishna is responsible for the continuance of the parampara,not by a dozen and a half Prabhupada disciples in maya.

maybe some are not offensive (meaning to Srila Prabhupada) and are doing well in the scope of their spiritual life... why not?

that's perfectly fine with me. if somebody doesn't feel confident with any of the present gurus but follows SP'sinstructions, i'm pretty sure he can become a great devotee, make lots of advancement, perhaps up to going back to godhead. it may say that you can't go back without a guru, but who's going to stop SP from accepting you right in front of the pearly gates (or better: yamaraja's place)?

just don't claim that you are a direct disciple of SP without having seen him, or having been accepted by him.

..the question put forth is : " How do ISKCON devotees become ritviks? "

one deffinition I found for the word " ritvik " is as follows : Everyone is agreed that the definition of 'ritvik' is 'priest'. Priests do not initiate, they officiate over various types of ceremony. This is explained by H. H. Hrdayananda Goswami and H. H. Suhotra Maharaja in the appendixes of DD. This is also confirmed by Dr. V.S. Apte's Practical Sanskrit Dictionary, which was quoted by Srila Prabhupada in the Adi-lila of Caitanya Caritamrta. There it states that the word means a "priest who officiates at a sacrifice".

..so the question actually is " How do ISKCON devotees become a priest who officiates at a sacrifice ".

Phani Prabhu says " you become known as a ritvik by claiming that you don't need a living guru but can take initiation from srila prabhupada without him being present on the planet anymore "....Obviously we are dealing with apples and oranges.If the world is lucky a 100 years from now millions of people may consider Prabhupada their spiritual master,what's wrong with that?

The real question is " who is a living Guru , and how did he become one "

As I have previously mentioned , Iskcon's GBC use's the word " ritvik " to slam and discredit anyone who questions their legitimacy in the practice of making their freinds into " Gurus ".

Guys, today you become known as a ritvik if someone wants a loyal ISKCON audience to boo you, ala "He's a commie!"

Witness His Grace Ravindra Svarupa prabhu's article "Centralization Critics Off base" (available at http://namahatta.org/nh2/en/node/4693)

There he said:

"“Our Whole Movement Could Be Killed,” warned Vyapaka Prabhu, in the title of a posting on the ritvik web site Sampradaya Sun."

I'm not getting in to the whole philosophical angle - personally I think whatever your philosophy is, get out there and prove it and we'll see who's still around in 100 years, or even 10.

What I'm all about is being precise with your use of language (Kaunteya's critique of On Leadership standing - I'm writing a second edition to address the points he has raised).

Ritvik has become a bit of a catch-all for dissidents, disaffected, and disenfranchised.

How do ISKCON members become these? Well, it's usually a bit on both sides, but if you've read "The Final Order" you can clearly see that the central thrust and main impetus behind it's argument are the excesses and shortcomings of zonal acaryas in the 80s, and of other ISKCON authorities into the 90s. People need a coherent story to explain these things, and some people, for various reasons, needed an alternative flag to rally around, which TFO provided.

For me, the problem lies on rubber stamping the gurus, which is something like arranged marriage. It only will fail. and the responsibility naturally falls on the GBC for doing so. Not that they vote who is guru and then guru falls and GBC doesn't have anything to do. Not logical to say the least.

> I find it so strange that we can accept a system were a guru can fall down & we think we have a perfect system?

There can't be a 100% assurance that a specific guru will not fall. Gurus are not wooden dolls. Every jiva always has a free will to act against Krishna's will and if one is not on the stage of prema it can happen. At the same time this system is given by the Lord and in that sense it is perfect.

I cannot say it more clearly than above. Last try: Even if 100% of gurus fell down, you're not solving it by instituting apasiddhanta. When that happens (as Kali yuga progresses) the sampradaya ceases to exist 'in open' and will be renewed in future (yada yada hi dharmasya).

still my feelings are that we need to improve the system that we have and the ritvik system makes good sense to a lot devotees.

Some other reason related to the question...

Sometimes I perceive that some devotees attain a "srila prabhupada disciple" status by supposedly taking SP as sm throug a ritvik priest (happens with initiation with a SP godbrother too).

This probably comes from the perceived "elite" domination in the 70, 80 and 90s, and perhaps still alive nowadays.

I am just curious. How do ritviks actually take initiation? I heard they use a recording of prabhupada's voice. Is this correct?
Can i just take an ipod and initiate myself or anyone i want then?

for Ipod, yes, its called ritvik.dmg. Just double click and when the initiation, I mean installation is complete, you are done! :)

Seems to me that if someone is a ritvik because of their understanding of a letter written in 1977 naming 11 devotees who are to be ritvik gurus then they should be trying to take initiation from the few devotees who are still left from that list before it is too late.

imho, it is equally ludicrous that someone says that the parampara ended with Srila Prabhupada and that an administrative body GBC appoints absolute guru. Both the two sides of the same coin. Education and information are the only means to ensure the right guru choice, but we'll always have in the material world people that want the easy and desire to be cheated.

OK, ... saying that there is no one that can initiate but ritvik representative... and the rest the same :)

Haribol! I'm new to this site and am impressed with the variety of interesting subjects that you are discussing. Recently I've been involved in a forum with several senior devotees, including GBC's, gurus and ex-gurus discussing the rtvik issue. The fact is that when Srila Prabhupada was asked how initiations would be conducted in the future, particularly after his disappearance, he said that he would appoint officiating acarayas.

At the same time, he definately wanted his disciples to "actually become guru", but cautioned that it should be "on my order." Srila Prabhupada is still with us, and is capable of ordering a qualified disciple to "actually become guru." However, vaisnava etiquette would suggest that anyone accepting disciples should do it outside ISKCON, which is Srila Prabhupada's ashram. Within ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada is the ultimate authority, or should be, anyway. Having two seperate lines of authority, ISKCON and guru, doesn't make sense. Prabhupada wanted all ISKCON officers to swear an Oath of Allegiance, too. I can provide the text of the Oath if anyone is interested.

Is anyone familiar with the legal document, "Direction of Management" (DOM)? It is the ISKCON Constitution written by Srila Prabhupada, and has been amazingly neglected/rejected. If DOM were followed, there wouldn't be such confusion about simply following Srila Prabhupada's instructions.

Anuttama prabhu, there is a conversation thread titled "Does the "Direction of Management" (DOM) document apply today?" you might want to read through.

Satsvarupa: ... Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you're no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas.
Tamala Krsna: Is that called rtvik-acarya?
Prabhupada: Rtvik, yes.
Satsvarupa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the...
Prabhupada: He's guru. He's guru.
Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order... Amara ajnaya guru hana. Be actually guru, but by my order.
Satsvarupa: So they may also be considered your disciples.
Prabhupada: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider whose?

[quote][cite] anuttama:[/cite]The above conversation is very clear. Srila Prabhupada says, "yes, they are disciples. Why consider whose?" and he also says, "be actually guru, but by my order." For myself, I wouldn't dare to take a disciple unless ordered to do so by Srila Prabhupada. In our sampradaya, the spiritual master is worshipped on the same level as Krsna. It takes a great deal of purity to accept such worship without becoming illusioned.[/quote]

Initiation is just a ritual;the most difficult is to follow the rules!
So many were personally initiated by Srila Prahupada,but where are they now?Mass initiation,christian style by priests-ritviks- may be excellent,mainly for children,who are now surrounded by all sorts of drug addiction/pornography and gambling,and I believe that such promise at the age of seven would be nice for their spiritual life.The present initiation process is only for a very small minority,and so the mass will not profit from Lord Gauranga's instruction:become all of you spiritual masters! Just like the Amish community,further brahminical initiation can be given when one has show such propensity and qualities.At age of seven,the sex regulation is not necessary!Maybe another formality at 12 for this?
History has shown that the worship as God,for ordinary humans,is detrimental for them,as there are too much wealth and fame involved:it invites cheating and fights among different disciples and zones!
Only qualified brahmins[by different exams,established by the Founder],leading an exemplary life should give Bhagavatam class,though even illiterates can be gurus by exemple.
If a census is carried out, we'll be able to observe that 99% of preaching is still to be done around the world,and so,an army of preachers are required for this holy mission,that can't be done without some organization.
The other faiths are very busy planning scientifically their strategy for spreading worldwide,destroying the emergent vaisnavism,considered infidels both by christians and muslims,as we worship "idols".It's not impossible that they have infiltrated this movement in order to destroy it!
We should dare to take disciples,and share the burden of sinful disciples,and not treat Srila Prabhupada like an eternal dustbin for all sins for a further 9,500 yrs!
If the guru is pure,such responsibility will not be so heavy,as eventually the reactions is taken by the Lord himself,through disciplic succession,but the personal loving care of a guru can change the worst of criminals into vaisnavas,while non-genuine materialistic gurus,only interested in exploiting his disciples's money and body,can only deter them from Krishna.So,it's better to have a simple and sincere devotee as a guide,rather than such persons.Such relationship is so rewarding and full of bliss,as it is purely spiritual,and only those who are sincere can experience it. Anyone,following the instructions of the pure devotee,can qualify to become also a pure devotee,in time,and thus be able to deliver others under his/her care!
There's no need to hunt for disciples[websites/jet-setting],as Krishna will send them automatically.
Pure devotees will always be rare,but everyone should get a chance to hear the philosophy or chant Hare Krishna...even once!

Those still attached to Allah/Jesus/Jehovah or other,can also progress,if they chant these Names,but they should become vegetarians and follow the other rules as well.Many hindus are still meat-eaters,but chant Hare Krishna....and so,will be slow to progress.We should not force these people,through food distribution in schools,to accept krishna prasadam,as they can also offer it to Jesus/Allah!
It's the same God!