Philosophy: women's status

What women rights? The right to freely flirt with men. The right to be modern and independent?

meme: if you quote the passages it might help discern your problem

It's nice to see that male devotees like women to be chaste and submisive but this reminded me of something Bhakti Vidya Purna Maharaja said... "Every man wants a wife like Sita Devi but in order to have a wife like Sita Devi you have to be like Lord Rama"...

So yes, in order to follow Vedic culture properly men must also have the same rights as women regarding chastity and so on :)

Regarding the question, please meme, would you mind being more specific when you talk about rights?

I think it's better to make them understand their etternal position as servants of Krsna...

What I meant to say was that it would be better to avoid saying that woman are inferior to men, what would take his sisters away from Krsna, but I can see that your point of view would give a better result, just explaining everything to clarify this aspect instead of avoiding this matter that is quite controversial amongs non-devotees. I have been asked a few times by them about the rol of women in the Hare Krsna movement and I tried my best but sometimes I feel that they don't believe me and think that we are exploited.

yes, with the proper understanding

Generalizations can sometimes be more dangerous than they are useful (I'm being careful to not make a generalization there...)

I once had lunch with John Maxwell, the leadership teacher and author. Someone at our table asked him: "John, in your marriage, who leads? You, or your wife?"

John answered with: "Just as I've been making the point, in an area where one is stronger, they lead. In an area where the other is stronger, they follow. So in areas where my wife is stronger, she leads. In areas where I'm stronger, I take the lead."

Different people are, well, different. Different men have different strengths. Different women have different strengths. Are there generalizations that can be made? Maybe. Are they useful? Maybe.

At the end of the day, however, it's a good idea to keep it personal. There are examples of both men and women who have shown both a presence and a lack of intelligence, and compassion, and many other qualities. So there may be more value in many cases in assessing things according to their qualities and activities (guna and karma), rather than resorting to talking about impersonal hypothetical categories (such as varna or gender) and generalizations.

Sorry about the double post. Can you add a delete option?

No problem.

1. Yes you are right, we should not compromise our principals. But if one can do that with some tact then he more intelligent than one who does not compromise but at the same time cannot present eternal teachings in a way that a soul in maya can accept and start making advancement. Even we are on a gradual path, so it is up to the preacher to raise someone to a higher stage.
Even SP went on the principal of time, place & circumstance in allowing women in the temples in USA. That is not the way it is in India and Indian devotees would be AGHAST at such a thing, but it is commonplace in the west.

2. If woman want equal freedom to men why should they give up their freedom to have children? They want to expand their freedom, not curtail it.

If we take SP's statement of "less intelligent" as referring to real intelligence of how to get out of the material world, then can woman be lawyers, doctors, etc? We know that is not good for devotional life, but what about devotee men becoming lawyers, doctors, etc? That is ok?

Dear visnu prabhu,
Thank you for the nice post.

Behind all actions, there is generally some philosophy. You said that the cause of a lot of these problems is because we are not following Vedic culture, and I agree fully. But, the problem doesn't end there. Instead of following the proper siddhanta (philosophy of Krishna consciousness), generally people have contaminated ideas that are still stuck with them from their pre-devotional days. Some of these contaminated philosophies are mayavadism, feminism, liberalism, etc. A lot of the problems you mentioned in your post, as well as others have mentioned in their posts in this thread, are due to the underlying philosophy of feminism.

We can test how pure we are becoming in Krishna consciousness by testing how much we are freed from misconceptions, contaminated philosophies, and our own mental speculation. This process is so simple. It simply requires that we give up everything we think we know, and accept Srila Prabhupada as our absolute authority. To justify these nonsense philosophies (mayavadism, feminism, liberalism) requires us to relativize Srila Prabhupada's absolute position (because Srila Prabhupada very heavily spoke against these bogus philosophies). Anyway, I have already discussed that in detail in another thread on this website.

Hare Krishna

My ill advised views on the matter

I want the same rights as women too...i believe i am being discriminated against also :) Really no joking.

1. Why should I as a man be allowed to only be a father ( not married yet..but someday i shall..i hope)...i want to be a mother also...means i want to bear the child in my womb....oops..i want a womb also LOL....its so unfair

2. I want to be able to wear bangles, saris, and all that makeup..and still be able to also wear jeans, shirts, trousers etc....and not have people laugh at me...and call me crazy..they dont call the ladies crazy when they do this.

3. I want to be not asked to help with lifting heavy stuff, carry the luggage, fix the things around the house...why should i be singled out...the ladies are not asked to do this.

4....and the list can go on.

I was just trying to present my point satirically...no bad intentions....but God created all of us different...i can similarly complain that the next man is richer than me, stronger, has more kids, a bigger car, and so on :)

Our aim is not to consolidate our position in the material world..and claim more rights here ....but to relinquish our rights here..and aspire for the pleasures of devotional service....we aspire to do our duties not ask for rights :)

Well...duties...who decides them....as devotees..we ask superiors....and superiors decide based on sastra...so what if i am a software wizkid....if i am asked to clean the floor....then thats service..and counts as much in Krishna's logbook as the pujari's service of worshipping, or the temple president's management.

If I can beat my mind with a broom and shoes...as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur advised...then maybe i will progress spiritually.

I am not a man, or woman or human or ant...i am a soul...a soul who is the servant of the Lord...Lord Sri Krishna.

Thats my identity..and becoz i forget that..i get dissatisfied.

But does this mean...i can behave as i like..stroll into someone else's house, sit on his couch..and eat all his prasadam..and say...Hey!!! we are all one...

NO !!!

I need to know internally that everything belongs to Krishna..so my things belong to Krishna..and to His other servants...me included...but as long as someone else doesnt think similarly....why should i give him a hard time..imposing my views :)

better...i offer him my couch..and prasadam..as a sign of respect..and expect no similar respect in return..

so in my humble opinion...the woman rights issue is just another offshoot of misidentification with matter..atleast in most cases...

my humble obeisances to the devotees..and pls forgive me for any offenses.

I hope to learn from the views of other senior devotees where I may be wrong.

Hare Krsna Kuli Mataji (sorry I dont call matajis as Prabhu :)

"Men have a tendency to exploit due to their natural selfishness and selfcenterdness" - Really?? I think even modern mundane surveys will tell you that women are more interested in killing their child in theri womb due to demoniac ideas like maintaining figure etc.. Is this not self centerdness? I think you are making a baised comment there.. That is why in making generalized statements we must give evidence from shastras. Where is your evidence?

Dear Damodar Prabhu!!!!!

>"Men have a tendency to exploit due to their natural selfishness and selfcenterdness" - Really?? I think even modern mundane surveys will >tell you that women are more interested in killing their child in theri womb due to demoniac ideas like maintaining figure etc...

Yeah... This is a point that can be argued forever. For example most pedophiles (grown adults who rape children) are men. These type of "men" have caused havoc even within our own spiritual society. Many of these men were in respected leadership positions who exploited those who were subordinate to them. In the most selfish ways not caring that they crippled and destroyed both the spiritual and material lives of these children.

It is my experience, being raised since babyhood to be a submissive and obedient women, that unfortunately there are very few real men who deserve a vedic woman. So, all you prabhus out there; take a good hard look at yourselves and try to better yourselves first before pointing the finger at the other gender. We will do the same and let's see what happens!

Google Battle
"he invented" 1,040,000 results
"she invented" 162,000 results

http://www.googlebattle.com/index.php?domain=%22he+invented%22&domain2=%22she+invented%22&submit=Go%21

Imho, there is no use to argue about who is more conditioned by matter. This reminds me of those two arguing men ("knife!... no, scissors!!").
If we stick to a dharma view, these clouds will disperse. If we can, that is.

>>There is so much hatred and abuse of women in our society. Enough is enough.

There is too much of feminism also. That is against vedic principles. Enough is enough.

Feminism is when the man goes out and tells the world how women should be submissive. Then when he comes home his wife chastises him when noone is around and he sits there and can't do anything. Then he has to try to figure out what went wrong so he figures she has too much freedom. Anyway that is one theory, it may be true too :-)

So it is more like:
1. men should not get puffed up thinking they are better than women
2. women should not get too fanatical about being liberal
right?

> To Amara Prabhu, yes, maybe 86% of inmates are male, etc...are you saying you have no faith in what Srila Prabhupada said?


My goodness, no! I have complete faith in Srila Prabhupada! However, I do not follow him blindly or foolishly. I know, for instance, that many women are more intelligent than many men. Is a mentally-retarded male more intelligent than a female High Court judge? Of course not. Obviously, Srila Prabhupada's statement that "men are more intelligent than women" is a general and relative statement at best. It cannot be compared to non-relative statements like "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," which is true in all circumstances.

In any case, a real guru never wants his disciples to follow him blindly or foolishly--he expects them to use their intelligence and apply his teachings in a thoughtful, constructive way. Prabhupada never wanted us to parrot his statements without any thought or consideration about their appropriateness.

-Amara

Amara Prabhu,

Following Srila Prabhupada blindly is a blessing that not many are bestowed. But to prove your point as false, I dont have to use blind faith in SP because:

SP has never said ALL MEN ARE MORE INTELLIGENT THAN ALL WOMEN. So what are you trying to prove. Ofcourse, it is a general statement which if you take the whole population of men and compare with whole population of women will be true. What is the point in giving argument like is all women less intelligetn than all men. Who has said this? Neither has SP nor have I said it. Why try to use something that has not been and try to refute it?

Additionally, even if a wife is more intelligent than her husband (which is quite possible because intelligence is not supposed to be a criteria for marriage) she still MUST be submissive. This "MUST" is not a demand that the husband is supposed to impose as Kuli Mataji has conveniently used to prove mumdane equality. This "MUST" is prescribed by shastras. That is the only way she can achieve great power and "control". This is the prescription of shastras. We get control over even Krishna with submission. Same concept. Shastras teach us that Husband is to be treated as good as Lord Hari. Shastras dont say treat your husband like Hari only if he is like Hari. It says treat him like Hari no matter what. Even Ravana was treated properly by his wife who was infact a great devotee named Mandadara.

Unless there is reference to or quotes from Shastras mentioned in subsequent posts, I am not going to respond.

What feminism has led to: http://www.rense.com/general77/GENDER.HTM The push by God knows who to let woman serve in the military in combat. (nice article)

"Rockefellers funded women's lib in order to get the rest of the population taxed, and the kids into state system at an early age." (Aaron Russo, friend of Rockefellers)

why has this post resurrected???

VEDA:"Rockefellers funded women's lib in order to get the rest of the population taxed, and the kids into state system at an early age." (Aaron Russo, friend of Rockefellers)

interesting.

amalagaura:The right of woman to have as much freedom as men.

They already do -- serve Krishna or serve maya.

What other freedom is there?

Equal rights... That's also in Bhagavad-gita:
"You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty."
Bg 2.47

The same right applies to both men and women.

Did Arjuna get to choose what was his duty?

"It is far better to discharge one's prescribed duties, even though faultily, than another's duties perfectly. Destruction in the course of performing one's own duty is better than engaging in another's duties, for to follow another's path is dangerous."
Bg 3.35
This statement is practically spoken twice in Bhagavad-gita.

Here again, very similar:
"It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly. Duties prescribed according to one's nature are never affected by sinful reactions."
Bg 18.47
Krishna is talking about prescribed duties. "Prescribed" literally means "written before," as prior to one's birth. (Origin: 1425–75; late ME < L praescrībere to direct in writing, lit., to write before or above, equiv. to prae- pre- + scrībere to write.) As one gets his or her body according to the choices he or she has made in the previous birth or births, so we get our prescribed duties.

Krishna does not talk about choosing one's duties now. He talks about doing one's own duty compared to doing someone else's duty, and He heavily favors the former.

"Prescribed duties should never be renounced. If one gives up his prescribed duties because of illusion, such renunciation is said to be in the mode of ignorance."
Bg 18.7

Illusion means to think, "I am this body," or, "I am the enjoyer of this body." We are spirit soul; and Krishna is the only enjoyer. We are enjoined to act according to duty for the purpose of serving Krishna, not with the desire to enjoy.

Srila Prabhupada has stated repeatedly that a woman's duty is to serve her husband, taking care of the home, children, cooking, and such activites, to help him advance in spiritual life, Krishna consciousness. Instead we often see women leave these duties for sense gratification, to have the association of karmis in the workplace and to get more money. Sometimes she wants to leave her husband, feeling that to cook and clean for him is beneath her. Unfortunately, by thinking too much of sense enjoyment with women in the previous birth, she has been given a female body along with the prescribed duties suitable for such a body. That enjoying spirit is a man's disadvantage. A woman's tendency for submissiveness is her advantage for devotional service. Somehow, many women are retaining the mentality of men, which is rather unbecoming and not at all conducive to devotional service.

Hare Krishna.