Philosophy: People who say that ghosts are imaginary or not real

I personally saw many of them and paranormal effects caused by them, so it is difficult for me to put all this in the "mental creation" category.
Seeing a door opening or objects move without physical cause is certainly not "mental" to me.

the problem is that this man had probably seen many ghosts and still though they were caused by the subconscious of some young girl.
that´s what he said.

There is no such thing as ghosts. Evolution is fact. Men walked on the moon. Illness is caused by bacteria, viruses, and genetic defects.

If your faith requires you to remain mired in the superstition and ignorance of the Middle Ages, then you have a very weak faith indeed.

a= ... and Bush looks after us all so nicely. So much for gullibility.

To answer this question correctly one should understand what is real and what is exist. Yes they are real. No they are not real. Both statements are logically true. However there is no real need to consider them real to return BTG.

ccd:However there is no real need to consider them real to return BTG.

If you want to go BTG I thought you had to have faith in the scriptures, that is what i understood, you have another option? How to explain scriptures is of course another matter, but there is something else I heard that you have to listen to a guru.

Bhakta Pablo:

ccd:However there is no real need to consider them real to return BTG.

Maybe true, but what if the Spiritual Master considers them real and the disciple doesn't?

In a reverse logic, if a Spiritual Master considers that we should not worry or talk about ghost, being devotees and all that, what happens if we still do? Ghosts are apparent in the Bhagavatam, one can interpret it to see them as "real" or as illusions of the mind. Both extremes are correct according to time and place, if you ask me. So if your guru tells you they are not real you have to accept it. For example one may argue: They are not 'real' just like this material body is not real, even made from real elements such as earth fire water that are real. So if this body is not real, and is full of ignorance also being temporary and falsely identified as the self, how could you say that ghosts body is real? Is it a form of misidentification and illusion? On that basis to say ghosts are real is an illusion even if they are apparent or do have ghost's bodies. (Note: unlike mayavadis of sankara, avidya jal, we do consider material body an illusion, but the universal elements that construct the body real, not to spend more time on it..) One should not, thus, just reject anyone who considers ghosts an illusion, as if they are ignorant. Philosophy of Bhagavatam is independent of traditional forms of thinking and can be presented thus in full to an intellectual class, without a need for them to accept ghosts as real.

Bhakta Pablo:

ccd: Ghosts are apparent in the Bhagavatam, one can interpret it to see them as "real" or as illusions of the mind. Both extremes are correct according to time and place, if you ask me.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by interpret? Are we supposed to interpreting Srimad Bhagavatm?

I do not know who is "we". There are some qualification to do that. I essence a guru is that person who does it.

ccd: So if your guru tells you they are not real you have to accept it.

Even if their existence is supported in scripture and by our arcaryas?

[/quote] That is the job of the guru to adapt to the modern day people the siddhanta. Ghosts are not part of the siddhanta. In fact I will stop answering since you changed the question from "are they are real". Scripture and acaryas can support for example that jiva never fall . Different scripture and different acaryas will not always agree on siddhanta. What to speak on such insignificant interpretation as ghosts exist but not real, exist but imaginary, dont exit or exist and real.

ccd:Philosophy of Bhagavatam is independent of traditional forms of thinking and can be presented thus in full to an intellectual class, without a need for them to accept ghosts as real.

What defines an intellectual class? Are you saying one can choose to reject certain aspects of Srimad Bhagavatam and still accept it as absolute?

[/quote] I would suggest that you do two things, contact Iskcon Research Institute and get recording of Krishna Ksetra lecture on Krsna Samhita and Bhaktivinodas interpretation of Bhagavatam that was part of iskcon studies conference last July. Maybe that will answer it in detail. Don't you think ithey are separate question(s) that you can ask at this forum? It would be right to ask them separately don't you think?

You say their not part of the siddhanta, but they are clearly mentioned in Srila Prabhupada's translation of Srimad Bhagavatam as being real.

Not everything that SP said is part of siddhanta. Where did he say anything in this effect? I do think that the whole idea of ghost is that its not real, its perceived as real, but is only a mental concoction being on the subtle plane. I would say they exist but not real, and are illusory. Is it what SP said 'being real'?

Traditionally, they do seem figure into our philosophy.

They are not part of philosophy. They do however are part of traditon. There is no such thing as ghost-tattva.

To add to the list, there is a verse in BG 17.4: "Men in the mode of goodness worship the demigods; those in the mode of passion worship the demons; and those in the mode of ignorance worship ghosts and spirits".

And there is a story in Padma Purana about liberation of Dhundhukari, who was released from his ghost body by listening to Srimad Bhagavatam for seven days.

CCD: I think putting topics like everything is an illusion into a discussion of whether or not ghosts are real is simply misleading. We cannot say that that nothing is real, everything is an illusion so we can pick and chose what, when or where we want to say something is real or in the mind.

The existence of ghosts as living entities who exist simply with a subtle body and who lack a gross body is fairly straightforward even for someone with minimal exposure to Vedic philosophy. Why confuse the topic?

I was not preaching to you dear prabhu. I was answering the question, real or not. Prabhupada never said they are real, he used a carefully selected words, 'not false'. And yes you did not indicate it was a purport.

Hare Krishna Prabhu. Thanks for the discussion.

most people think of ghosts as dead people who are disembodied. But that is not correct is it. We read the following from above post by Bhakta Pablo

Ghosts and mischievous hobgoblins are the creation of Brahma

its from this

SB 3.20.40: "The glorious Brahmā next evolved from his sloth the ghosts and fiends, but he closed his eyes when he saw them stand naked with their hair scattered."

so ghosts aren't dead people they're naughty creatures and are part of the material creation.

is that right

Interesting that HariBhakti Vilasa quotes the fact that yamaraja has two form, one is deva, demigod form, and the other one is pita-form.

We are ALL haunted....as soon as we are dumped in this temporary illusory material world,believing that this world is real!
The wise don't care about such world,and concentrate on the spiritual realm,by spiritual practices such as chanting the Holy Names or dedicating 100% his life to the Lord!