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"never leave ISKCON" instruction discussion
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some have "left", so the question is, are they condemned?
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Some have left, some were kicked out, some pure devotees were harassed by GBC and Krishna took them from this world.
Prabhupada didn't condemn those who left. He did feel preaching would be more effective within the organization though. -
I would like to know what the definition of "leaving ISKCON" is...what does that mean? Does it mean never associating with the devotees of ISKCON? Never going to an ISKCON temple? Not chanting Japa? Not doing any service to the Vaisnava's (who are associated with ISKCON)? Not offering bhoga to Krsna? Taking initiation from a guru outside of ISKCON?
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some lived isolated for decades practicing krishna consciousness and then reappeared (went to mayapur etc).
were they outside of iskcon? -
spiritual advancement is not a geographical question
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"your love for me will be shown by how much you cooperate within the society I created,Iskcon!" Srila Prabhupada!
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"Best is to grow your own food[with no poisons]get cow's milk from own goshala[not from cows exploited and sent to slaughterhouse!] create vrndaban atmosphere in rural communities,avoid karmi education[also slaughterhouses!] for kids,create vaisnava jobs[not work with karmis],such as artistic jobs, cultural artists,vastu advisers,astrologers,writers,website designers[KC]cowherd keepers,agriculture,preachers[unlimited service] to all towns and villages,become vaisnava politicians,President of the country including USA...and turn this world into a green paradise,with my books as law books,English as universal language for all devotees,and USA army to impose vaisnavism all over the world,with the benediction of the GBC,elected freely by temple Presidents every 3 yrs,themselves elected by senior local vaisnavas!"
Srila Prabhupada. -
"your love for me will be shown by how much you cooperate within the society I created,Iskcon!" Srila Prabhupada!
Interesting quote...is that exactly what Srila Prabhupada said? -
All devotees know this phrase!
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I think that is not the exact quote. By adding a sole word, the import can be easily changed to our particular likings.
Anyone has it? -
On May 23, 1977, you also made a well-known statement about the test of love. As recounted by Satsvarüpa däsa Goswami:
“Your love for me,” said Çréla Prabhupäda, “will be shown by how much you cooperate to keep this institution together after I am gone.” [Çréla Prabhupäda-Lélämåta: Uniting Two Worlds, p. 313]
Or, as recorded by Tamäl Krishna Goswami:
Çréla Prabhupäda emphasized, “Your love for me will be tested how after my departure you maintain this institution. We have glamour and people are feeling our weight. This should be maintained. Not like Gauòéya Math. After Guru Mahäräja’s departure so many äcäryas came up.” [TKG’s Diary, p. 45]
(from Vyasa Puja book 2000 and ICJ 8.1, by Ravindra Svarupa dasa) -
As I thought yes...I don't recall SP saying "within the society I created"...it would be good to see the actual quote.
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So that is quite a different thing...."keeping this institution together"...that can be done whilst living outside the temple, by assisting in some way to maintain the activities of ISKCON.
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The Temple or ashram is only part of the Institution:it's mainly for the sannyasi and brahmacaris[males only!] -There can also be "convents" for female devotees also,why not?.-..Whenever the brahmacari wish to get married[change ashram to grhasta ashram] he gets the blessing of the ashram leaders,and live outside,as he feels he wants to create krsna conscious family.If he follows strictly the vaisnava way of married life,as I think i understood,sex is only for procreation....and so,life is about the same as in the temple,and the KC couple can still do a lot of service,at the temple or ,if his house is good enough,the house is also a temple,even with Deities etc..Otherwise,he is supposed to engage half of his salary in spiritual services...and after their children are married,they go into vanaprastha,in pilgrimage places together,and eventually separate completely for sannyasa life.
The married devotees are the ones who are supposed to create businesses/farms[with protected cows]/temples,according to their capabilities,and so,engage other devotees so that the krsna Conscious community grows and grows,and those who have Ksatriya character can get into politics of the country,and so be able to change the world!
In order to achieve this,a whole army of preachers/"initiators" is required,unless the Maha Mantra is freely given to all,letting people evolve naturally toward fulltime engagement as preachers for Srila Prabhupada's vision.
I predict that a system similar to christianity will be formed,as millions of children can get pre-initiation[like baptism]at 7-8 yrs old...get a spiritual name,chant 4 rounds,and then if he's serious,get the brahman thread[at 16-20 yrs old]d,if he's getting into brahman services[Deity worship/full time preacher]
Otherwise,brahman initiation is not necessary.
The GBC,elected by senior disciples of good standing and assisted by [cardinals/bishops!]sees to the fulfilment of Srila Prabhupada's vision: A Krsna Conscious world!
I don't see why vaisnavas of other institutions can't work together,strenghtening the movement as well..
ps.it's too chaotic as it is now,with fallen gurus everywhere,and spaced disciples,who don't know which way to go, new devotees a rarity,gurus still fighting for zones,disciples fighting among themselves.....and the Founder Acarya in a closet! -
Misra,
Prabhupada defined ISKCON in NoI:
The International Society for Krishna Consciousness (is) established to facilitate these six kinds of loving exchanges between devotees.
Thus to leave ISKCON means to leave these six kinds of loving exchanges as per NoI Verse 4. One should not do it and yes people who did are condemned.
In this context one does not need to see ISKCON differently. -
If I reveal my mind in confidence to a devotee in person, that is a loving exchange between devotees...if I do the same thing online or on the phone...that is also the same exchange. If I send a devotee maha prasadam, that is a loving exchange.
Some devotees still have these loving exchanges...regardless of their geographical location.
>One should not do it and yes people who did are condemned.
No-one should ever be condemned...they should be encouraged, in a loving way, to associate with devotees...by giving them our association in a way that they are accepting of that association. -
rasa108:
No-one should ever be condemned...they should be encouraged, in a loving way, to associate with devotees...by giving them our association in a way that they are accepting of that association.
What I mean is if someone does not take part in the exchanges of six types, one really can not encourage them, in a loving way. So I agree with you with my whole heart.
Prabhupada's definition of ISKCON is very broad and merciful. -
I admire your capacity of condemning and being merciful at the same time, CCdas.
Only one question, which one should be prominent with people that left ISKCON? -
My understanding is that anyone who is practicing 6 kinds of exchanges have never left. According to the definition by Srila Prabhupada at least.
I heard a talk from GBCs that the independent groups such as IRM, Haribol people, NMs etc should be given status of an order similar to Augustinians, Dominican orders in RCC. They are independent from the direct authority but are under the umbrella of spiritual oneness of the institution. I guess it will have to be done sometimes in the future anyhow.
I think GBC should be more then ever welcoming and use this definition by Srila Prabhupada of ISKCON in the constitution.
Would you suggest any other way? -
[quote]ccd:
Thus to leave ISKCON means to leave these six kinds of loving exchanges as per NoI Verse 4. One should not do it and yes people who did are condemned.
[quote]
My understanding is that anyone who is practicing 6 kinds of exchanges have never left. According to the definition by Srila Prabhupada at least.ccd:
[p](?) -
CCd,
> The International Society for Krishna Consciousness (is) established to facilitate these six kinds of loving exchanges between devotees.
>Thus to leave ISKCON means to leave these six kinds of loving exchanges as per NoI Verse 4. One should not do it and yes people who did are condemned.
this doesn't follow. 'Facilitate' means to give facilities, to give a room, etc. It doesn't create a monopoly. Just like a computer facilitates writing, but you're free to use handwriting. But one who wants to be effective will use all tools available. So priti-laksana can go on anywhere but if there is already a room for that (ISKCON) why not try our best to use it? If that's not possible for some, other umbrella should be sought.
>I heard a talk from GBCs that the independent groups such as IRM, Haribol people, NMs etc should be given status of an order similar to Augustinians, Dominican orders in RCC. They are independent from the direct authority but are under the umbrella of spiritual oneness of the institution. I guess it will have to be done sometimes in the future anyhow.
I'm not sure if they'd agree to that since many are critical to ISKCON so the comparison to Catholic orders doesn't hold. Imho, the umbrella could be WVA (ISKCON is its member). -
That would not answer the question would it?
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(?) - its simple. One should not leave 6 kinds of exchanges (ISKCON). If you define ISKCON differently then Prabhupadas instruction appears as not being followed by some, who are very nice devotees IMHO.
I remember years back Tripurary Swami and his team spent weeks at GBC meetings trying to negotiate a deal to retain independence and still be part of ISKCON. It failed, but hopefully with new constitution it will define membership of ISKCON differently.
ys -
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In this Discussion
- abhiram September 2007
- amalagaura September 2007
- ccd September 2007
- govindas108 September 2007
- mishra September 2007
- rasa108 September 2007
- Tulsiananda das October 2007
- VEDA September 2007