Will discussion on varnasrama-dharma actually produce any tangible results?

ekendra

Here’s my realization. It has to start somewhere. Through these discussions people (such as myself) become educated. When individuals in our society have a more functional understanding of how varnasrama works then there is a gradual and natural progression into our individual activity and then social structure - just like sambandha evolves into prayojana. This is true individually and then collectively as more people become educated by association.

So I think this topic is worth revisiting again and again at this phase in our movement’s development so that we develop a functional understanding for how to implement varnasrama. I also think that these discussions set a precedent that implementation needs to be discussed in practical ways according to time, place and circumstance so that we don’t become intellectually lazy and try to over-simplify and ‘impersonalize’ this beautiful natural way that humans can live now.

I’ve had a lot of thoughts on varnasrama since I wrote the original article that Dayananda Prabhu commented on. Even better than my thoughts are those offered by His Holiness Bhakti Vidya Purna Maharaja here. This is the first part of three classes which are also available on the same site by searching his name:

http://www.gopala.org/node/96

mishra

If discussion does not lead to action (as usual in our circles), then it is armchair talk. Can anyone tell me of a real varnashrama implementation going on in our movement?
And if a willing and understanding fellow wants to do, probably will be smashed against the wall of institutional machinery. Sorry for the negative input but first we have to face reality

VEDA

An example of implementation is in the book on Mid-East bhakti vrksa preaching history (installments on namahatta.org). Devotees are enthusiastic to contribute to common goal by their talents and skills ('guna and karma') in an 'open source' way.

ekendra

How do most people stop eating meat? First they hear something about it. Then they discuss it. The more they hear and discuss the clearer it becomes which eventually leads to some practiced effort to change dietary habits. After the change is made then the person's character, consciousness and outlook are changed. They 'become' what they initially just 'heard' and 'discussed'.

knowledge -> skills -> values
sambandha -> abhideya -> prayojana

Similarly we need to educate ourselves on Varnasrama Dharma by discussion (aka - hearing and chanting) so that we can imbibe the principles that the social structure rests upon. Then implementation will become a natural consequence of our collective and individual understanding. Just like eating pure vegetarian Krishna-prasadam is just so natural to us and we wouldn't think of doing otherwise.

I don't think that we can measure our progress with this by looking for a utopian model of varnasrama (agrarian based) and crying "fie!' on the whole thing if there isn't one available. I see this as a gradual and very natural social progression as devotees hear more about the natural way that humans interact.

There needs to be a culture of self-honesty for anything really tangible to take place. I've lived in communities where this is evident and in some where its not. I certainly prefer being around people who are comfortable just being themselves. The association is healthy and uplifting which I think is the whole point of varnasrama anyway provided the goal is to please Krishna.

mishra

A false model somehow still prevalent is that all devotees are brahmanas as a social class, and to be otherwise you are less, which is not the reality as Krishna says striyo vaisya tatha shudra... all can come to Krishna whatever the varna/ashram you are in.

mishra

why not identify the goal, identify where we actually stand and make short medium and long term plans to achieve it. If we wait for a "natural" implementation we can reach the end of the Kali-yuga and still be stuck in so called "sambandha" which btw I understand is a purely spiritual process, not much to do with varnashrama dharma as a material process to reach spiritual goals.

ekendra

mishra:
A false model somehow still prevalent is that all devotees are brahmanas as a social class, and to be otherwise you are less, which is not the reality as Krishna says striyo vaisya tatha shudra... all can come to Krishna whatever the varna/ashram you are in.

I think this is changing though at least where i am. Here people are pretty happy to just be themselves.

as far as using 'sambandha' to describe a stage of material progression perhaps it isn't so accurate. But it at least serves as a model for understanding how to get to the goal. I don't think it will happen any other way even if we are stuck in discussion mode for the rest of kali-yuga. Might as well discuss and hopefully something practical will come of it. Worse case scenario - we all learn a bit more about natural human life. Who knows? We might take it up one day.

ekendra

Implementation of varnasrama without cow protection as a central religious theme is just a surrogate effort. While its true that the modes of nature give us a certain proclivity(s) if our activities are out of context then we can't really call it varnasrama although the ingredients of varnasrama may be there.

like we may have all the pieces of the puzzle - brahmanas, sudras, vaisyas, and ksatriyas but unless they are engaged in serving and protecting cows then then they remain disjointed and relevant to eachother via sentiment or force.

Tulsiananda das

...it should , Iskcon Vancouver's farm comunity Saranagati was doing fine till the temple ran out of money and had to sell 95 % of the 1,750 acres to the devotees.
Saranagat is not an Iskcon asset or project any more,it fully independent of the GBC,Iskcon Vancouver owns only a hadfull of acreage now.

sitapati

Simple Temple
Caring for Krishna's devotees
Free to Preach

These are all documents describing on-going development of social support infrastructure for devotional communities. These are the seeds of the eventual full-blown varnashram implementation.

This is how it begins, mirroring the development from the Satya yuga when everyone is paramahamsa. As the yugas progress the social system begins to unfold from a seed form. So in the same way expert devotees are encouraging organic social evolution in devotee communities.

IMHO, I think that small model vedic villages,of less than 200 devotees,could be such a great and powerful preaching tool for Iskcon. the general public is already working on such idea,but,without perfect knowledge,they include bio meat-eating in their project.
Some are pure veg,such as findhorn.org.
The search for such pure way of life is not restricted to vaisnavas,but many other groups are also going for it,as they can see how bad the society is getting,mainly after the Virginia tech massacre.
Existing properties of Iskcon could be used for such projects,and when not available, grhastas should meet and talk about such projects,instead of mixing with general population,and merging with them.We are not supposed to associate with non-devotees!Unless it's for preaching purposes.

Srila Prabhupada said public schools are slaughterhouses,and so, devotees should endeavour to create their own education system,learning from past mistaakes.

There is no need for any authorisation from leaders,who should be glad of such endeavours.A speccial site could be made in order to exchange ideas/realisations of all vaisnavas.Actually there's one in google group,called harekrsnafarms...
HH. Bhakti Raghava Swami has also a special website for varnasrama at:

http://varnasrama.org

ps. All projects within the mind!
So it's definitely not a waste of time..

ccd

As far as I know any discussion that is krsna katha has tangible results. VA discussion is krsna katha. Thus VAs discussion has tangible results...

hariharibol

40 years ago people started thinking the world was going to hell in a hand basket and the best thing to do was to start a self-suffient farming community and live on a commune with like minded families and individuals,and that was 40 years ago.

There's is ample reason today to re-introduce this knd of thinking.Saranagati Farm in the interior of British Columbia,Canada is an ideal place for such a Krishna Conscious community to flourish.Established more than 20 years ago by Isckon Vancouver and the guidance of Bahudak Prabhu,Saranagati's 1,750 acres are now controlled by a group of devotee/shareholders who hve formed what is now known as Saranagati EcoVillage and can be visited here : http://www.saranagati.ca/

The hungarian eco-village,headed by HH. Sivarama Swami,seems to be another good example:
http://krisnavolgy.hu/english

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