Social: How can one give long term support to serious criminals and still become a GBC or guru?

Hare Krishna Deenanathji, hope you're doing well.

Imho, this question must be answered by those devotees (who supported crimes and criminals) by closely looking into their hearts and reforming their old ways. If that happened and others still criticize them, it is spiritually dangerous for the critics. But if they persist in their old ways as seen by their current actions, they are not credible.

I can understand how reforming your ways and publicly admiting the mistake can help, but to then become a guru? It just seems like a big step to me. I could understand if someone has reformed and then keeps a reasonably low profile humbly executing devotional service, but to be a 'pin-up' guru (sorry, couldn't find the right word) just doesn't sit right with me. Or am I being too pessimistic about human nature?

By the way, skc is really me. I am reformed, publically admiting my error.

I can understand the principles that Veda and Mishra state, i.e reforming, publically admiting. (I was recently reading the Manu-samhita stating that part of the punishment for one who kills a brahmana is that for the next 12 years he must tell everyone he meets that he has killed a brahamana.) It appears to me that there are some grey areas where individual cases and circumstances should be considered, and this is where it becomes difficult because there is currently an unwritten social taboo on openly discussing names and details. A further difficulty in navigating this issue is that one often has no choice other than to accept a 'definitive' conclusion on a particular case from a person/body with a vested interest, a conclusion that no court of law can accept due to 'conflict of interest' laws.

I agree that you cannot force an opinion on who is a guru on someone, not even Krishna does that. But he does give copious instructions on standards of behaviour and qualifications required of a guru.

Another way to view the question would be like this: If someone, as a devotee, gave proactive long term support to serious criminals even to the point of leaving Iskcon, what qualifications would they have to have or demonstrate before they become eligible to be a guru or GBC in Iskcon?

amazing how in a society that is supposed to be promoting the absolute truth - the truth can sometimes be so hard to come by

I have just read on Hansadutas site: Ramanujacharya engaged dacoits for collection, then had them killed. Madhvacharya pummeled his opponents...

Funny to hear it coming from him... if you know what I mean, guns and roses for Krsna I mean.

Okay I will tell you another story. Mayapur temple was often attacked by one local gang. Prabhupada asked to see the gang leader. after a talk, the gang leader joined. He was the TP for a long time.

Please provide an example. Not to minimize anything about sitapati, who I am sure is very advanced. But, what makes you so certain that he possess the purity and spiritual prowess to pull off such a thing. Humbly, your servant, Priya

It is not in principal that they committed some pretty heavy offenses. They actually did it. Therefore, where is the innocence prabhu? Admission at this point in time is beyond conception. It simply won't happen. It didn't happen then, what would make the perpetrators admit it now? In any event, I do not wish to spend too much time on this matter. To me, it's so old, it's dead. And I think it detrimental to my spiritual well being to dwell on it. If I continue in this way I will become like Janmastami prabhu. I made my comment and will certainly go into further. However, it is not my favorite subject matter. Your servant,
Priya

With all due respect prabhu, you are comparing apples to oranges. Taking repeated birth and death is certainly proof of criminality. And of-course this is not a disqualification regarding the orders of Mahaprabhu. However, we must in my opinion, take an honest stand on the issue. Let's call the spade, a spade. Why do you guys always quote satsra in an attempt to justify the actions of the perpetrators. And if you honestly believe what you say, than why are these people not accepted back into the society? viz Hansadutta, Kirtananada and so on and so forth. Hypocrisy. Otherwise those individuals would be welcomed back into the society. They are not. Therefore, what is the point of quoting "our philosophy." If you don't follow it? YS, Priya

Firstly, I assure you, I am no Mataji deena prabhu. Priya is only a portion of my actual spiritual name. In any event, I respect your opinion. However, based on my personal experience regarding this matter, you are wasting your precious time debating over this issue. Krsna is the controller This is all Krsna's arrangement. As soon as Srila Prabhupada left the planet, actually just prior to that, "our society" had become, or was on the way to becoming something other than Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON. That's why "our society" today should be rejected. It is not what is was intended to be. Therefore, it is to be rejected. This is most unfortunate for the sincere, as we are left with no choice except to reject them and "their society". We want no part of it. If we take any role of involvement with them, we to become implicated in the their continuing offenses. I am not one who wishes to be in that position. Therefore, the temple and all it's functions are available to me in my home. I worship Srila Prabhupada and the Gaura Nitai deities that reside in my home. Prabhupada's books are there. Everything is there. I have no need or desire to associate with the perpetrators and their associates. Krsna consciousness begins at home. Believe it or not, it's absolutely true. Therefore, why should one waste his time trying to do something which is beyond his capacity or control. You are not the doer. No matter what you say, write, publish or attempt to do in the hopes of rectification, it simply will not work. Krsna is the doer. Not us. After all these years and all of our failed attempts at rectification, through forming different camps, writing, publishing so many different things, some of us are still trying to fight a battle we just can win. At least for now anyway. So, we just continue with our spiritual business at home and continue to sharpen our swords. That's all we can really do. We are not the controllers. When Krsna sees fit for the sincere ones to take over, better be prepared Bubba, because we're going to battle. I personally would like to see it go down in that way, but it may not. Whatever Krsna wants we will accept. For now, better to simply stay away from them and wait. No arguing, no pontificating, nothing. Just take care of your spiritual business and wait to see what happens. In the mean time, try to help the sincere ones who are somehow trapped in "their society". Krsna will reveal His plan in due course. I completely understand your frustration prabhu. It's like a warrior sitting in his hut sharpening his sword. He can't do it for very long, because of his fighting spirit he must fight. So, sometimes we channel that fighting energy into this futile arguing because we have no battles to fight. That's alright on occasion, or when the need arises. However, we should not make it our soul engagement. After all that the like minded persons have attempted to do in the hopes of change. Nothing has changed. In fact, it's only gotten worse. So how much more proof do you need that we are not the doer's? You can't change Krsna's plans, it's way beyond your capacity. As it is for all of us. Therefore, better to chant Hare Krsna and wait to see what takes place. All of this is futile. Sincerely, Priya

I agree with ccd, restricting levels of participation is required in some cases, not exclusion. Iskcon is for the most fallen and that's us.

The point of the question is to understand the reasoning/dynamics behind an apparent lack of any restriction on people who have shown extended pro-active support for a known criminal and peadophile.

Q is: How can one give long term support to serious criminals and still become a GBC or guru? Answer is one has to provide support to all. Some restrictions can be placed on criminals again to support them and others ie that their relationship will not harm others who need ever greater support, eg innocent, women, children. I see this question as being aimed directly on RNS and other few swamis from NV. I think they are not to blame. Really. Prabhupada strongly supported KS in his position even after quite a few serious deviations, how can we blame SPs disciples for following KS then?

mishra:I sincerely say that still a clarification on their part will clear out many minds (mine being one). Don't you think?

Yes, any clarification is always good.

I was referring to a clarification from the present leaders ex-followers of KS.

see if I understand, KS and Hamsadutta are the victims and the followers are guilty?
I though KS is the indisputable offender and the subject of this thread is to know if some of his followers somehow are guilty by association or conspiracy.
What is KS version anyway? Seems like nobody knows it but you and a few other.

Mishra prabhu, yes that is correct. Only those who were in close association with K know the truth. Janmastami speaks the truth regarding this matter. Because he was there, as was I. However, I will not go into deatils! Next issue: I never said victims. A comment was made that today's Iskcon is as it was in "Prabhupada days". I am simply trying to enlighten you by my statements. Those days are long gone. If you choose not to believe, that is your choice, as well as your misfortune. This has everything to do with, and does answer the question. Unless of-course you have some other question. You said, they are welcomed back in like back in "Prabhupada days".. Well I say they are not. They say they are not. Once again Bubba, your choice. Remain in illusion, or accept the facts. I was there! Janmastami was there! We know what really happened. When Radhanatha and Kuladri would see either one of us after the fact, they would run and hide in fear of being exposed by us. Janmastami has apparently made this his life's work. I chose another route. As far what K's version is all about, I honestly don't know. He's too busy clinging to the handful of foolish followers he has somehow maintained. He will NEVER admit! Whereas Hansadutta has admitted. So, at least Hansadutta can admit his mistakes. But still, he is not welcome. More than anything, these people we are speaking of fear exposure more than anything else. They will and have gone to great lengths to keep it as secret as possible. Claiming that Jan is simply crazy. But, they can't say that about me because I didn't go public with the info. I thought, what would be the spiritual benefit. Either to me or anyone else for that matter. There is none. Everyone knew enough to reject K. Therefore, I took a back seat to the matter and remained silent. To this day, I refuse to go into detail. It has no spiritually beneficial qualities. So, why partake? To possibly gain some notoriety, or get my fifteen minutes. NO! Prabhupada would not approve of such activity. I personally have been approached by many who know, to write a book regarding this matter. I refused for the above mentioned reasons. I hold true to that. I will not go into detail! However, I will state that Jan is telling the truth regarding this. I simply don't approve of his continuation of it. It's counter productive to our KC. Please, let us end this conversation. It is not good. What is the value??? YS, Priya

So we dont repeat the mistakes that where made in the past,like NEW child abuse in Ireland and MORE Gurus falling down.

I'm quite sure now that almost all of the last posts completely ignore the topic at hand. Question is why?

I understand Priya what you are saying and I made up my mind sometime ago a little like you describe. Krishna is in control and I can't do anything about it, so why waste time. But at the same time there is a part in me that wanted to know the truth and the wise decision after that is to concentrate our poor kali-yuga already damaged energy in our individual KC and the preaching.

ccd: It is all about the question, but the question is put in first person and at the end it is individual choice.
I do not have any problem if you want to advance your cause, probably like Janmasthami Prabhu has done and I understand your quest. But the most powerful thing we can do to clean our movement right now, all being said as it has been said and all information out is probably just that, getting the info out there so that we do not permit the same to occur again. As for the gurus and authorities, we cannot check and shouldn't check people from choosing them. After all it is voluntary and everyone will ripe the fruit of their actions, correct or mistaken. What does that have really to do with our individual spiritual lives?

Let us return to the question shall we. deena prabhu or skc or whoever he is, posed this question obviously in an attempt to somehow find out what the qualifications are to get his guruship reinstated, or whatever his position was. "By the way, I'm skc and I am now reformed and am publicly admitting my error." Give me a break Bubba. He simply wants to continue with his previous position and wants to know how to get there. This is his question. Yet, no-one has answered it for him. Someone please tell him.

I'm not certain Bubba. But if you say so than I accept.

[quote][cite] Priya:[/cite]And if you honestly believe what you say, than why are these people not accepted back into the society? viz Hansadutta, Kirtananada and so on and so forth. Hypocrisy. Otherwise those individuals would be welcomed back into the society. They are not.[/quote]

Respected Vaishanvas: One devotee friend has pointed out to me this interesting topic of conversation and I wish to add my humble two cents to the discussion. I have been in touch periodically with both Hansadutta and Kirtanananda. I am a former disciple of Kirtanananda. Some of you posting and reading this forum may know me personally.

Why is Kirtanananda not permitted to have any contact with ISKCON?

One reason may be that he has not fullfilled the requirements imposed upon him by the ISKCON Child Protection Office.

On September 10, 2000, ISKCON’s Child Protection Office determined that, based on testimony from two victims, he had committed sexual child abuse. He was denied contact with ISKCON for 5 years, and conditions of retribution were given by which he could once again be allowed contact with ISKCON after 5 years, if he so desired. However, he chose to ignore the conditions given for his rectification. Excerpts from the actual document are quoted below.

Quote:

Based on the testimonies and documentation described above, this panel has determined that Kirtanananda Das committed sexual child abuse. Due to these transgressions, it is the determination of this panel that Kirtanananda is not permitted to have any contact with ISKCON or ISKCON-affiliated organizations for five years from the date of this Official Decision. This restriction includes a prohibition from visiting an ISKCON temple or participating in ISKCON functions. After five years from the date of this Official Decision Kirtanananda may reapply to the APVC or the GBC Executive Committee for reinstatement into ISKCON. This application for reinstatement will be considered if Kirtanananda complies with the following stipulations:

(1) He must contribute at least $10,000 to an organization dedicated to serving Vaishnava youth, such as Children of Krishna, the APVC, or a gurukula approved by the APVC.

(2) He must write apology letters to all the victims described in this letter. In these letters he must fully acknowledge his transgressions of child abuse, and he must take full responsibility for those actions. Also, he must express appropriate remorse, and offer to make amends to the victims. These letters should be sent to the APVC, not directly to the victims.

(3) He must undergo a psychological evaluation by a mental health professional pre-approved by the APVC, and he must comply with recommendations for ongoing therapy described in the evaluation report and by the APVC.

(4) Kirtanananda Das must fully comply with all governmental investigations into misconduct on his part.

End Quote

To my knowledge, Kirtanananda has fullfilled NONE of these 4 requirements, so why should be be welcomed back into ISKCON and let bygones be bygones? Certainly one who commits offenses and sincerely apoligizes and repents should be forgiven and accepted. I think Hansadutta is in this category. But this is not Kirtanananda's way.

Sincerely your servant

Hrishikesh

P.S. Another perhaps more important question is: Why have some of the current gurus and administrators in ISKCON--who have in the past promoted and conspired in and had knowledge of illegal and criminal activities including murder--not yet admitted nor apologized for such offenses and consistently deny any involvement in such activities, even when accused by some outspoken eyewitnesses who, for whatever reason, decided not to continue in the insidious conspiracy of silence anymore?

Kirtanananda was investigated by an ISKCON office and ordered to apologize to his victims, but who is going to investigate the conspirators from New Vrindaban and Los Angeles temple management and ask them to apologize to the families of the victim(s) who were murdered over 20 years ago?

Clearly, those in positions of power want to stay in power, "for the good of Prabhupada's movement" and "not to disturb the preaching" undoubtedly. Yet don't these things have a way of backfiring? How long can a person hope to keep their crimes secret before finally a big scandal erupts?

It happened to Kirtanananda, and I suspect it will happen again to others. If Kirtanananda had apologized when his immoral activities became widely known after the 1993 Winnebago Incident, and if he had undergone penance, seen a psychologist, underwent therapy, offered retribution to his victims, etc., instead of trying to cover it up and continue his guruship and sexual predation, I might still be serving him today.

I felt the pain of betrayal back then, and I fear many disciples of some current ISKCON gurus may feel that same pain someday in the future.

Well boys, here's a guy who was and maybe still is, or maybe even already has, written a book regarding all this stuff. Hrsikesha prabhu, from NV. He has much to contribute to this. So, speak with him for awhile. I'm fried! Later!

I apologise for the storm that has been stirred up. And I apologise unreservedly to Ekendra and Sita-pati prabhu's for I am sure I offended them by aggressively pursuing an answer to this question under the name of 'skc.'

I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind allowing such people into topmost positions of spiritual authority. Perhaps I can make some progress on this if someone could anyone answer the following, which is basically the same original question, worded differently:

If someone, as a devotee, gave proactive long term support to serious criminals and/or peadophiles, what qualifications would they have to demonstrate before they became eligible to be a guru or GBC in Iskcon?

I would love to hear what advice Priyavrata prabhu has because my son-in law is aspiring for Radhanatha Swami as his s/master & although he has now heard about Radhanatha's murky past he still has not dismissed the idea of initiation from Radhanatha. It seems to me that if there was even more widespread honest histrory such as books by those devotees who were there then my son-in-law would not be in such danger of committing a big mistake.So I wish Priyavrata would reveal more even though it might be painful for him to dig out those awful past event details, at least it would help so many others. So what can I say to my son-in-law to convince him not to aspire to radhanatha.

Kes: just do a google search for "Radhanath" and collect all the negative statements that you can find, then share that with him. I'm sure that's the Krishna conscious thing to do - not. :-)

According to Hari Bhakti Vilasa the prospective disciple should spend one year in the association of the guru, living with him, so that the two can examine each other's character. After one year, if they are both satisfied as to the sincerity and qualification of each other, initiation should take place.

As far as what has happened in the past, no one is blameless - all are sinners. Both before and after coming to the movement. At any moment we can fall back as we are ksara, fallible, by nature.

What we need to see is what is the consciousness of a person right now - not 20 years ago. You cannot substitute a google search for that. Both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned, and they are two sides of the same coin - the inability to actually measure the character of a person.

So I would not discourage anyone from taking initiation from anyone. I would encourage them to pray sincerely, practice sincerely, and make sure that they are satisfied with the character of the person they are taking initiation from by personally observing their character and behaviour over a significant period of time (one year +).