deena: you and skc have the same ip: 202.72.153.151, so probably are the same person.
we are disabling your old username, please use your new id.
Next time you do some trick we will ban your ip all together.
Go ahead with your question.

I'd say if they recognize publicly making that mistake, they will be no problem. Doubts can come if they still revere those criminals.

I can understand how reforming your ways and publicly admiting the mistake can help, but to then become a guru? It just seems like a big step to me. I could understand if someone has reformed and then keeps a reasonably low profile humbly executing devotional service, but to be a 'pin-up' guru (sorry, couldn't find the right word) just doesn't sit right with me. Or am I being too pessimistic about human nature?

By the way, skc is really me. I am reformed, publically admiting my error.

I can understand the principles that Veda and Mishra state, i.e reforming, publically admiting. (I was recently reading the Manu-samhita stating that part of the punishment for one who kills a brahmana is that for the next 12 years he must tell everyone he meets that he has killed a brahamana.) It appears to me that there are some grey areas where individual cases and circumstances should be considered, and this is where it becomes difficult because there is currently an unwritten social taboo on openly discussing names and details. A further difficulty in navigating this issue is that one often has no choice other than to accept a 'definitive' conclusion on a particular case from a person/body with a vested interest, a conclusion that no court of law can accept due to 'conflict of interest' laws.

I agree that you cannot force an opinion on who is a guru on someone, not even Krishna does that. But he does give copious instructions on standards of behaviour and qualifications required of a guru.

Another way to view the question would be like this: If someone, as a devotee, gave proactive long term support to serious criminals even to the point of leaving Iskcon, what qualifications would they have to have or demonstrate before they become eligible to be a guru or GBC in Iskcon?

amazing how in a society that is supposed to be promoting the absolute truth - the truth can sometimes be so hard to come by

In my opinion prabhu, those who support criminals are themselves criminals. Otherwise why support? This is a huge problem that plagues our once revered society. The current criminals have taken the place of the former criminals. Due to their previous support, they themselves have become criminal. Therefore, there is no attraction there. We don't witness people flocking to the temples anymore. One has to ask himself the question as to why this is, and answer in all honesty. Your servant, Priya

Good one Bubba. Yes, but only Srila Prabhupada could do such a thing. Otherwise it is out of the realm of our capicity. We are not pure devotees like Prabhupada.Your servant, Priya

Please provide an example. Not to minimize anything about sitapati, who I am sure is very advanced. But, what makes you so certain that he possess the purity and spiritual prowess to pull off such a thing. Humbly, your servant, Priya

It is not in principal that they committed some pretty heavy offenses. They actually did it. Therefore, where is the innocence prabhu? Admission at this point in time is beyond conception. It simply won't happen. It didn't happen then, what would make the perpetrators admit it now? In any event, I do not wish to spend too much time on this matter. To me, it's so old, it's dead. And I think it detrimental to my spiritual well being to dwell on it. If I continue in this way I will become like Janmastami prabhu. I made my comment and will certainly go into further. However, it is not my favorite subject matter. Your servant,
Priya

With all due respect prabhu, you are comparing apples to oranges. Taking repeated birth and death is certainly proof of criminality. And of-course this is not a disqualification regarding the orders of Mahaprabhu. However, we must in my opinion, take an honest stand on the issue. Let's call the spade, a spade. Why do you guys always quote satsra in an attempt to justify the actions of the perpetrators. And if you honestly believe what you say, than why are these people not accepted back into the society? viz Hansadutta, Kirtananada and so on and so forth. Hypocrisy. Otherwise those individuals would be welcomed back into the society. They are not. Therefore, what is the point of quoting "our philosophy." If you don't follow it? YS, Priya

Firstly, I assure you, I am no Mataji deena prabhu. Priya is only a portion of my actual spiritual name. In any event, I respect your opinion. However, based on my personal experience regarding this matter, you are wasting your precious time debating over this issue. Krsna is the controller This is all Krsna's arrangement. As soon as Srila Prabhupada left the planet, actually just prior to that, "our society" had become, or was on the way to becoming something other than Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON. That's why "our society" today should be rejected. It is not what is was intended to be. Therefore, it is to be rejected. This is most unfortunate for the sincere, as we are left with no choice except to reject them and "their society". We want no part of it. If we take any role of involvement with them, we to become implicated in the their continuing offenses. I am not one who wishes to be in that position. Therefore, the temple and all it's functions are available to me in my home. I worship Srila Prabhupada and the Gaura Nitai deities that reside in my home. Prabhupada's books are there. Everything is there. I have no need or desire to associate with the perpetrators and their associates. Krsna consciousness begins at home. Believe it or not, it's absolutely true. Therefore, why should one waste his time trying to do something which is beyond his capacity or control. You are not the doer. No matter what you say, write, publish or attempt to do in the hopes of rectification, it simply will not work. Krsna is the doer. Not us. After all these years and all of our failed attempts at rectification, through forming different camps, writing, publishing so many different things, some of us are still trying to fight a battle we just can win. At least for now anyway. So, we just continue with our spiritual business at home and continue to sharpen our swords. That's all we can really do. We are not the controllers. When Krsna sees fit for the sincere ones to take over, better be prepared Bubba, because we're going to battle. I personally would like to see it go down in that way, but it may not. Whatever Krsna wants we will accept. For now, better to simply stay away from them and wait. No arguing, no pontificating, nothing. Just take care of your spiritual business and wait to see what happens. In the mean time, try to help the sincere ones who are somehow trapped in "their society". Krsna will reveal His plan in due course. I completely understand your frustration prabhu. It's like a warrior sitting in his hut sharpening his sword. He can't do it for very long, because of his fighting spirit he must fight. So, sometimes we channel that fighting energy into this futile arguing because we have no battles to fight. That's alright on occasion, or when the need arises. However, we should not make it our soul engagement. After all that the like minded persons have attempted to do in the hopes of change. Nothing has changed. In fact, it's only gotten worse. So how much more proof do you need that we are not the doer's? You can't change Krsna's plans, it's way beyond your capacity. As it is for all of us. Therefore, better to chant Hare Krsna and wait to see what takes place. All of this is futile. Sincerely, Priya

I agree with ccd, restricting levels of participation is required in some cases, not exclusion. Iskcon is for the most fallen and that's us.

The point of the question is to understand the reasoning/dynamics behind an apparent lack of any restriction on people who have shown extended pro-active support for a known criminal and peadophile.

Q is: How can one give long term support to serious criminals and still become a GBC or guru?
Answer is one has to provide support to all. Some restrictions can be placed on criminals again to support them and others ie that their relationship will not harm others who need ever greater support, eg innocent, women, children. I see this question as being aimed directly on RNS and other few swamis from NV. I think they are not to blame. Really. Prabhupada strongly supported KS in his position even after quite a few serious deviations, how can we blame SPs disciples for following KS then?

mishra:

I sincerely say that still a clarification on their part will clear out many minds (mine being one). Don't you think?

Yes, any clarification is always good.

I was referring to a clarification from the present leaders ex-followers of KS.

see if I understand, KS and Hamsadutta are the victims and the followers are guilty?
I though KS is the indisputable offender and the subject of this thread is to know if some of his followers somehow are guilty by association or conspiracy.
What is KS version anyway? Seems like nobody knows it but you and a few other.

Mishra prabhu, yes that is correct. Only those who were in close association with K know the truth. Janmastami speaks the truth regarding this matter. Because he was there, as was I. However, I will not go into deatils! Next issue: I never said victims. A comment was made that today's Iskcon is as it was in "Prabhupada days". I am simply trying to enlighten you by my statements. Those days are long gone. If you choose not to believe, that is your choice, as well as your misfortune. This has everything to do with, and does answer the question. Unless of-course you have some other question. You said, they are welcomed back in like back in "Prabhupada days".. Well I say they are not. They say they are not. Once again Bubba, your choice. Remain in illusion, or accept the facts. I was there! Janmastami was there! We know what really happened. When Radhanatha and Kuladri would see either one of us after the fact, they would run and hide in fear of being exposed by us. Janmastami has apparently made this his life's work. I chose another route. As far what K's version is all about, I honestly don't know. He's too busy clinging to the handful of foolish followers he has somehow maintained. He will NEVER admit! Whereas Hansadutta has admitted. So, at least Hansadutta can admit his mistakes. But still, he is not welcome. More than anything, these people we are speaking of fear exposure more than anything else. They will and have gone to great lengths to keep it as secret as possible. Claiming that Jan is simply crazy. But, they can't say that about me because I didn't go public with the info. I thought, what would be the spiritual benefit. Either to me or anyone else for that matter. There is none. Everyone knew enough to reject K. Therefore, I took a back seat to the matter and remained silent. To this day, I refuse to go into detail. It has no spiritually beneficial qualities. So, why partake? To possibly gain some notoriety, or get my fifteen minutes. NO! Prabhupada would not approve of such activity. I personally have been approached by many who know, to write a book regarding this matter. I refused for the above mentioned reasons. I hold true to that. I will not go into detail! However, I will state that Jan is telling the truth regarding this. I simply don't approve of his continuation of it. It's counter productive to our KC. Please, let us end this conversation. It is not good. What is the value??? YS, Priya

So we dont repeat the mistakes that where made in the past,like NEW child abuse in Ireland and MORE Gurus falling down.

I'm quite sure now that almost all of the last posts completely ignore the topic at hand. Question is why?

I understand Priya what you are saying and I made up my mind sometime ago a little like you describe. Krishna is in control and I can't do anything about it, so why waste time. But at the same time there is a part in me that wanted to know the truth and the wise decision after that is to concentrate our poor kali-yuga already damaged energy in our individual KC and the preaching.

ccd: It is all about the question, but the question is put in first person and at the end it is individual choice.
I do not have any problem if you want to advance your cause, probably like Janmasthami Prabhu has done and I understand your quest. But the most powerful thing we can do to clean our movement right now, all being said as it has been said and all information out is probably just that, getting the info out there so that we do not permit the same to occur again. As for the gurus and authorities, we cannot check and shouldn't check people from choosing them. After all it is voluntary and everyone will ripe the fruit of their actions, correct or mistaken. What does that have really to do with our individual spiritual lives?

Advance my cause? My only interest is to advance by the means of the prescription given by OUR spiritual master Srila Prabhupada. Nothing more! I came to this site to possibly lend some assistance to those who need it. And they are many. This is rapidly turning into a free for all. Furthermore, yes they should be checked! They need guidance. It is your duty as an elder to give it. So, let us focus on that. To remain silent regarding the taking of a bogus guru is not the right thing to do. If we can present Srila Prabhupada to them in the hopes that they get it. Than let us do so. Where is the harm? It is to our benefit to do so ccd.

Let us return to the question shall we. deena prabhu or skc or whoever he is, posed this question obviously in an attempt to somehow find out what the qualifications are to get his guruship reinstated, or whatever his position was. "By the way, I'm skc and I am now reformed and am publicly admitting my error." Give me a break Bubba. He simply wants to continue with his previous position and wants to know how to get there. This is his question. Yet, no-one has answered it for him. Someone please tell him.

The same girl. Pretty funny. Obviously you are not following what has been said here. Get with the program Bubba. Then make you comment.

ccd: Go fuck yourself. You are fool #1.

no other name calling or provocation will be tolerated by the 2 prabhus here. Please chill out and stick to the question at hand.