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Should a book be published with all ISKCON horror stories?
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With interviews, explanations and apologies from the people involved?
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I agree. Openness is always better in the long run. Before it's to be done forcefully or by others.
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Its an interesting question. Openness VS Ability to chant.
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I dont understand.
Its an interesting question. Openness VS Ability to chant.ccd: -
My understanding that if you want to be completely honest about yourself you will become pure devotee, but if you (thinking that) you will be honest about others can tell all the truth, you inevitably bound to commit offences.
That is what will make you stop chanting, as defined by the siksastakam verse 3 if your read it in this context.
So my understanding is that 'apologies' are good, but one better be careful with 'interviews:-)
Please correct me if Im wrong. -
telling the truth about others will stop your chanting due to offenses?
Depends if what you tell is truth or not.
I think it is time to move on the "offensive" cliche. First we have to find a pure devotee then commit aparadha.
If the motivation is right, then telling the truth is good although unpalatable. And it is the maximum good you can do in our movement plagued with half truths and secretism to the maximum, all in the name of offenses, mad elephants and going to special types of hells.
I wonder what type of hell waits for the sanitized devotee busy sweeping under the rug all nonsense, just to please some so called absolute authorities. -
telling the truth about others will stop your chanting due to offenses?mishra:
Depends if what you tell is truth or not.
Quite right. And the truth is because you are not feeling lower then a blade of grass and are not tolerant as a tree, you will not tell the truth, and what you see as 'the truth' will not be an absolute truth, and yes it in most cases will be aparadha, I don;t know about others, I know about myself only.
Transparency is good provided its clearly for self-purification. If you can talk about others in the same mood, I want to hear it.
In Chicago when commenting on Queen Kunti prayers Prabhupada was asked about one blooped devotee, Gaurasundara, he avoided answering it quite directly. One should always have a goal in mind, and self purification or disciple purification is a nice goal to keep. -
does that mean that because am not a pure devotee everything I say it is not truth or biased?
What if I testify in a court case, should I protect the culprit "devotee" otherwise I am making great aparadha?
Imho your argument perpetuates the big lie we have lived in for years, probably the main cause of our problems: killing basic brahmnical qualities like truthfulness and institute the vaishya a mentality of "i do not gain anything with you" all in the name of advancing KC and not committing offenses. -
It of course is important to have priorities right before taking up book writing. IMHO. That was the point of transparency VS chanting the holy name. My priorities are different and I'm not my brothers keeper so to speak.
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The short answer is no.Monkey on a Stick and Rolling Stone's " Dial Om for Murdrer " were such " literatures ".These had bad effects on Iskcon.
On the other hand,corrective change within Iskcon rarely,if ever takes place without these " expose " type stories being presented to the general public,so maybe yes. -
It appears to me that this mentality of cheating and abuse has arisen from a misunderstanding of the basic philosophy of KC and forgeting the qualities of a Vaishnava.
Here are the first 5 as a reminder:
1. krpalu: merciful
2. akrta-droha: humble
3. satya-sara: truthful
4. sama: equal to all
5. nidosa: faultless
In the name of a transcendental platform that we are not actually on yet...it seems anything is possible (abuse and even murder of devotees).
All these past events can certainly be viewed as a lesson for us all to stick to the basics (strong sadhana and good association) and an example of how the material energy can contaminate any devotee in any position.
http://www.iskcon.com/education/culture/13.htm -
rasa108 says "mentality of cheating and abuse has arisen from a misunderstanding of the basic philosophy of KC ",can you explaine that?
What misunderstanding are you talking about? I am no expert, but never once did I think that child abuse and all sorts of cheating was a part of the KC philosophy.
Not only are these past events,but they continue to this very day,any suggestions? -
Back to the original question ..... if we were to print a book of all the ISKCON horror stories it would be a very voluminous book. I think it might also misrepresent ISKCON as there were good things being done also. Why just focus exclusively on the bad?
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That's very true Ekendra prabhu,any literature only showing one slanter side of the issue should be looked at carefully.
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The short answer is no.Monkey on a Stick and Rolling Stone's " Dial Om for Murder" were such " literatures ".These had bad effects on Iskcon.hariharibol:
On the other hand,corrective change within Iskcon rarely,if ever takes place without these " expose " type stories being presented to the general public,so maybe yes.
When a body is affected by disease,it's best to operate and remove the diseased part,and hopefully,health will be back.Otherwise,the whole body will die,intoxicated by the multiplication of diseased cells.The worst is when the diseased cells go up the brains...and the person goes mad!
Any doctor in the house? -
I really enjoyed "Betrayal of the Spirit" by Nori Muster. I have a copy of it on my bookshelf. People are human and mistakes will be made. It's interesting to look at what mistakes have been made and learn from them.
Monkey on a Stick was too sensationalist to me.
Sulochan prabhu's "The Guru Business" was interesting, although perhaps a little emotive, which is understandable considering the involvement of his wife. It's always a little touchy when people start interfering with your relationship with your wife.
Paramadvaiti Swami's "The Search for Purity" is pretty heavy, but with nice glorification of Srila B.R. Sridhar Swami. Paramadvaiti Swami told me that in some senses he regrets publishing it and it is a little heavy on putting certain people down, but for better or worse it's out there now.
Those are the main sastras I think - are there any others that I am forgetting off the top of my head? -
if we were to print a book of all the ISKCON horror stories it would be a very voluminous book. I think it might also misrepresent ISKCON as there were good things being done also. Why just focus exclusively on the bad?ekendra:
It is difficult for me to imagine such a thing. But perhaps a person who was badly burned and abused and cheated and has not healed may do such a thing. I know some former devotees from New Vrindaban whom (in my opinion) have over-reacted and in their pain have rejected everything from their former Vaishnava faith. Some have joined various Christian churches, others are now members of Impersonal Meditation Groups.[cite]sitapati :[/citeSulochan prabhu's "The Guru Business" was interesting, although perhaps a little emotive, which is understandable considering the involvement of his wife. It's always a little touchy when people start interfering with your relationship with your wife.
He is a story in himself. According to former gurukula boys who were eyewitnesses, his wife was having an affair while Sulochan was still living at NV. When he decided NV was not the place for him, he demanded that his wife accompany him with her children, but she was too tired of living in vans and having no secure place to stay, and besides, she already had a boyfriend. And Bhaktipada supported her and allowed her to stay and she eventually got divorced and married her boyfriend. I don't blame her. Sulochan was, as I understand it, a terrible husband. She's been (mostly) happily married now for over 20 years to a stable and responsible husband, as far as I can see.
Sulochan couldn't see his own faults as a husband, so he blamed the failure of his marriage on Bhaktipada. Yet I believe his hatred was Krishna's arrangement, because he began talking to former NV residents in California, and discovered many horror stories about Kirtanananda, which he eventually compiled into a book. He was the first that I know about who tried to expose the corruption within ISKCON.
His book is full of errors and rumors and fanaticism and cannot be blindly accepted as truth, but a lot of what he wrote was accurate, although years ahead of his time. -
hariharibol: "What misunderstanding are you talking about? I am no expert, but never once did I think that child abuse and all sorts of cheating was a part of the KC philosophy."
Maybe you misunderstood the point here...the simple truth is that for many years, bolstered by the "philosophy" that we are giving people a chance to engage in Krsna's service by them donating money to a project (e.g. Food for Life) that was never used for such projects - is cheating and was condemned by Srila Prabhupada.
The "philosophy" that we are not the body so therefore I can abuse and offend someone and that will not affect the soul...these are some of the basic misunderstandings I speak of hariharibol.
There is no doubt that the positive and bona fide activites of the movement far outweigh any mistakes but the point is to understand the reasons why the mistakes occur and I feel it's a matter of getting back to the basics (e.g., strong sadhana and good association) and trying to imbibe the qualities of a Vaisnava. -
I really enjoyed "Betrayal of the Spirit" by Nori Muster. I have a copy of it on my bookshelf.sitapati:
hey!.... you said I could borrow that one. Offer still on? -
I do think that it would be helpful if there were a resource where we could read a level-headed emotionally detached analysis of the issues we've faced as a movement and how we've recovered from some of them. This might give rise to a bit of wisdom for future generations. Intelligent people can learn by the mistakes of others and not have to repeat the same things over and over.
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[quote]ekendra:
I really enjoyed "Betrayal of the Spirit" by Nori Muster. I have a copy of it on my bookshelf.sitapati:
hey!.... you said I could borrow that one. Offer still on?[/quote]
I agree - excellent book. "Monkey on a Stick" was too taboid for me. -
"The best thing for you is to set the example by your personal behavior and try to reform the others, not by criticizing but by friendly behavior."
- Srila Prabhupada
http://prabhupadaletters1971.blogspot.com/2006_10_08_prabhupadaletters1971_archive.html#115998026255993206 -
is the book by nori available as ebook?
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No, there is no need for a new book. It would be too long and too time consuming to read.
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In this Discussion
- abhiram October 2007
- blackcat99 March 2011
- ccd October 2007
- ekendra October 2007
- Hari Bhakta dasa October 2007
- hariharibol October 2007
- Hrishikesh October 2007
- mishra October 2007
- rasa108 October 2007
- sitapati October 2007