Philosophy: Is it OK to knowingly choose a madhyama adhikari as diksha guru?

There are examples of uttama-adhikaris:
uttama-uttama Sukadeva Goswami
madhyama-uttama Srila Vyasadeva
kanitstha-uttama Sri Narada (when he was the son of the maidservant and attained darsan of the Supreme)

now if anyone comes to me tell me that he is uttama guru, I would rather choose madhyama guru who is honest about himself. Seen too many cheaters, probably the worst thing is to have a pretender guru, rather then honest madhyama.

Of course some say that there are many equal to Sukadeva Goswami. We all know the story when he was contrasted with his father.

I used to think that a madhyama-adhikari guru is fine, as long as he is still advancing on the spiritual path and reaches the goal and eventually manifests the qualities of an uttama-adhikari. But today I read something that has changed my opinion. I read that one who doesn’t have the required qualities but ‘engages’ followers in worship expecting that such qualities will manifest in the future has an incorrect understanding. And praising such as person as having qualities that he doesn’t possess is not praise but an insult.

Srimad Bhagavatam 4.15.23, purport
“Although Pṛthu Mahārāja was factually an incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he rejected those praises because the qualities of the Supreme Person were not yet manifest in him. He wanted to stress that one who does not actually possess these qualities should not try to engage his followers and devotees in offering him glory for them, even though these qualities might be manifest in the future. If a man who does not factually possess the attributes of a great personality engages his followers in praising him with the expectation that such attributes will develop in the future, that sort of praise is actually an insult.”

It brings to mind an analogy Prabhupada would use: only a man with $100 can give you $100. If he only has $10, how can he give you $100? Practically speaking, before we glorify our guru as one who can take us above and beyond the three modes, the guru should be above and beyond the three modes. Otherwise, glorifying the guru in this way is not only an insult to them, it indicates sentimentalism and/or fanaticism in ourselves and perpetuates misinformation among the innocent.

I got this from another forum might add to the discussion here, any comments:

The Bhagavata Vaisnava tradition classifies pure bhaktas/devotees/spiritualists in three ascending categories:
1. kanistha adhikari
2. madhyama adhikari
3. uttama adhikari

The definitions of these three categories are as follows:

The kanistha adhikari, however a pure devotee and sincere spiritualist, is still limited in vision and therefore sees spirituality/religion in a more or less material way; he feels he is belonging to a specific group of spiritualists and feels loyalty to them, and he feels that only the specific form of God he is attracted to is worthy of worship.
He feels compassion for the physical and mental sufferings of people, he gives charity to those who need food and medicine, and in general he tries to patch up situations so that people will feel happy.

The madhyama adhikari is able to see the difference between transcendence and material identification (even when applied to religious identification and attachment). He is able to appreciate the devotion and realisations of others and the transcendental nature of the forms of the Divine that are different from his own ista devata.
He “makes friends with devotees” (of all kinds) and keeps a distance from basket cases that show no hope of recovering the proper consciousness.
He feels compassion for the living entities’ sufferings in a wider perspective, not only in their immediate circumstances but according to a larger scale of time and cause-effect relationships. In other words, he feels more compassion for the criminal than for the victim of a crime.
This kind of compassion is much more effective because it acts on the roots of the problems rather than on the external branches, and by trying to prevent the bad karma it automatically prevents the ensuing sufferings.

The uttama adhikari is completely situated on the transcendental level and sees the ignorance, illusion, fear and sufferings of materially identified people as nothing more than a bad dream.
His compassion is not for the immediate sufferings of others (which he sees as necessary to wake up the soul and destroy delusions), but for the ignorance and illusion that are the root cause of such sufferings, and therefore focuses on distributing knowledge and helping people to become aware of Reality - sat, cit, ananda.
The uttama adhikari is the perfect model of realised soul in all spiritual traditions; he is advaitin with the advaitins, bhagavata with the bhagavatas, Vaisnava with the Vaisnavas, Saiva with the Saivas and Sakta with the Saktas. Not because he is confused, but because he sees that all different forms of the Divine and all different realisations of the Divine are integral parts of the beautiful Reality. And at the same time he never loses sight of his own ista devata.
He is the only one who can really appreciate God, and this appreciation makes him ONE with God (visate tad anantaram, Gita 18.55). This “merging” thing is impossible to understand for people who maintain a material identification; it is neither “personalistic” nor “impersonalistic”, because the Paramatma is the soul of our soul.

I feel I have to give my comment, and if you don't like it please criticise me, not my guru. He said there is always someone on the planet who is qualified to take shelter of. And he took shelter of Srila Prabhupada. I took shelter of him. One of my Godbrothers is so much smarter than I am. I forgot his name though, I think it is Madhavananda or something.

This is what my Guru Maharaja wrote on the topic in his diary:

"Srila Prabhupada is writing “one should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari”. So the question may be asked why are we accepting disciples … especially myself. Srila Prabhupada gives the answer by further writing.


“A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikäri as a spiritual master”.
Nectar of Instruction Verse 5.

The word insufficient guidance is important to understand. One of the acarya’s gives a wonderful example, concerning the non-liberated guru (kanistha-adhikari and madhyama-adhikari) and liberated guru (uttama-adhikari).
On a battlefield many soldiers are wounded and need medical attention. There are only a few doctors who stay back at the hospital which is well behind the actual fighting line. But there are medics, apprentice doctors who are not actually qualified doctors but have some limited training in helping wounded soldiers. If you are wounded and loosing blood and a medic comes to assist you, you don’t tell him “Go away, you are not a bona-fide doctor, you are only a beginner, an apprentice …. I will rather wait for a bona-fide doctor to come” … this is foolish. Being wounded and dying you should be eager to accept any help from any person. Similarly the conditioned souls are diseased and dying and if in the absence of an uttama bhagavat guru a lesser guru (kanistha guru or madhyam guru) comes to help you, surely you should be thankful. Also a madhyam-madhyam guru would be on deep ruci or asakti and an uttama-madhyama guru would be on bhava …. so that’s advanced. They may not be an uttama-bhagavat which corresponds to prema but ruci, asakti and bhava are all highly advanced stages."

Saryu: "One of the acarya’s gives a wonderful example, concerning the non-liberated guru (kanistha-adhikari and madhyama-adhikari) and liberated guru (uttama-adhikari)."

Saryu, can you please tell me which acarya provides that analogy and where? According to the NOI quote provided, one can accept a neophyte or intermediate Vaisnava as a guru, just don't expect sufficient guidance. To translate this in terms of the analogy we can say that while the apprentice doctor can patch you up in an emergency situation, his insufficient treatment means there is a good chance you won't be fully cured or you may get some kind of infection. Even though the apprentice might have the best of intentions, he might incorrectly diagnose you or prescribe medicine that has adverse effects. While we would definitely take into consideration his diagnosis in an emergency situation, that doesn't mean we would sign him up as our family doctor. Additionally, if the apprentice or others misrepresent his actual qualifications there would certainly be grounds for legal action against him.

A small correction:

Sastra has a provision for emergency (Sanskrit 'apad'). These rules are called apad dharma and are presented in Mahabharata and dharma sastras.

from an article to be added to our site:

The Mahabharata recognizes that in times of misfortune or calamity,
it is more difficult to maintain one's regular way of life, to
practice one's normal dharma. The text responds to this situation in
two ways: a) by praising those who are able to maintain their dharma
even in the midst of apad, "misfortune" or "calamity"; and b) by
teaching a special class of apad-dharma, that is religious principles
which may be substituted at a time of crisis or unusual distress.

That was a general remark on emergency, not related to the guru issue. Sorry for not mentioning it.

The 9 steps of devotional service corresponds to kanistha/madhyama/uttama adhikari, so by that one can see where one is oneself and where the guru is.
The stages of the kanistha adhikari are sraddha, sadhu-sanga and bhajana-kriya
The stages of the madhyama adhikari are anartha-nivritti, nistha and ruci
The stages of the uttama adhikari are asakti, bhava and prema.

The last stage of the madhyama adhikari is ruci, which is described as: “Attaining steadiness, devotees perform their devotional activities and take association with more care. By this, the anarthas are further reduced and steadiness turns to joy in the Lord’s service. This is called ruci (taste). With ruci for Krsna well established, everything else material becomes tasteless."

When one comes to the sage of asakti, our relationship with Krishna is reveiled within us. It does not happen on an earlier stage. Asakti is the first stage of an uttama adhikari.

So practically speaking, if we have a person who is relishing his/her relationship with Krishna internally, we have an uttama adhikari. If we don't have that but a person who have great taste for Krishna's name, and distaste for material things, we have a person on the level of ruci, a madhyama adhikari.
If we have a person with more taste for material things, we have a devotee not yet on those stages. Anartha-nivritti means a person constantly engaged in bettering him/herself, and eradicating unwaned qualities. If a person is no yet at that stage, we have a kanistha-adhikari.

A person who is a madhyama adhikari, can teach us the stages of a madhyama adhikari, to look for faults within ourselves, to better ourselves, and up to getting great taste for Krishna's name. It appears that quite some devotees could get great benefit from such a person, and thus such a madhyama adhikari guru. It is only when we transcend those stages, when we are elevated to the platform of ruci, we need an uttama adhikari to take us further.

An uttama adhikari, on the level of personal relationship with Krishna, might be quite impatient with us, if we are doing too much nonsense, and might therefore dismiss us rather than teach us. A madhyama adhikari is working on his/her own advancement and feel a natural inclination to help others to do the same.
Uttama adhikaris, in general, might not take up many disciples, so better look for someone on the madhyama adhikari platform, who do. If we reach the stage of ruci, and approach an uttama adhikari to come further, we might have a better chance to be acceped.

>far as i'm concerned, i don't consider the question of how far advanced my guru really is as overly important. i can >understand that he's loads more advanced than i am

Exactly - the only reason to suggest one is better, is by uttama themselves, who will have hard time following anyone less then that. For pre-kanistha states they are all perfect.

Also we are actually a'' siksa line not diksa line ''predominantly, especially since bhaktivinoda thakura accepted viphina goswami on the authority of sri chaitanya mahaprabhu as his diksa guru.In other words western culture or lack of it,necessitates taking shelter of more advanced devotees.Since an uttama adhikari comes down to the madyama platform to preach as our srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami did,it behooves those with sufficent intelligence to take ''siksa'' guidance from her senior devotees and their several decades of devotional service and their devotional merit or sukriti.While appreciating the guidance of krishna within the heart also.

The last comment was meant for mishra prabhu.

"Is it OK to knowingly choose a madhyama adhikari as diksha guru?"

Risky at best, but better than unknowingly.

Dear mister mishra,you seem to be expert at criticism and obviously conscious of iskcon ''zonal cronyism'',however how can you appreciate devotional service in iskcon if you are not initiated.....from outside the honey jar?Intellectualism and intelligence has its limits and sadly is unsatisfactory when attacking his bhakta's who are engaged wholeheartedly in pleasing their guru and archarya's.With time these present guru ,those who last will indeed become archarya's in their own rights.

Hare krishna- Pandu das,sorry to hear that your guru has suffered as a result of taking your karma at initiation.....as a result he has encountered spiritual problems due to the immense karma which he is duty bound to burn up on your behalf.If you no longer accept him you should really use your uninitiated name,or go forth and help your guru to become spiritually more powerful by preaching and taking responsibility on his behalf.Not many have done the proper etiquette,since we lack sincerity,how ever lord chaitanya might bless you to do the right thing if you ask for forgivness for your offenses that you have committed against your diksa guru.Which are axiomatic according to your present mentality.Vaishnavaism is a culture of forgiveness and self analysis ,lovingly embossed with the ability to only see the good in others.Possibly find some senior siksa to free you from your anartha's prabhu.

sri_chaitanya_govind:Dear mister mishra,you seem to be expert at criticism and obviously conscious of iskcon ''zonal cronyism'',however how can you appreciate devotional service in iskcon if you are not initiated.....from outside the honey jar?Intellectualism and intelligence has its limits and sadly is unsatisfactory when attacking his bhakta's who are engaged wholeheartedly in pleasing their guru and archarya's.With time these present guru ,those who last will indeed become acharya's in their own rights.

1. My name is Jagannatha Mishra das (initiated name)

2. Expert at criticism, could mean pointing mistakes that the status quo wants to bury due to fear and lack of faith in Krishna?

3. Looks like you are "in" the honey jar, congratulations!

4. Wholeheartedly working for an idea without real understanding and realization could mean mindless fanaticism that results in suffering in the long run.

5. Looks like you need some "enemy" so that you feel comfortable in your "spiritual" bubble, feel free to consider me enemy of your misunderstandings.

6. Are you next in line to become acharya? Uh oh.

I have read many of your articles and offerings jaganath mishra das on this site and your intelligence shines through prabhu,but spiritual nourishment and ones individual ability to spoon feed ones self krishna conciousness is generally achieved while subordinate,accepting an authority or at least having someone you allow,to give us quality siksa instruction .Thus enabling our pure spiritual nature to eventually manifest through the mercy of the swan like devotees .....and there encouragement and blessings.

Is it better to learn mathematics from a Class V teacher or a college professor?

Depends on your level.

Though anyone who preaches and teaches Krishna consciousness is the perfect guru; irrespective of what designation we give him.