Here's a hypothetical outlook we can put into the spotlight:
"I'm debauched and degraded more than anyone else. Therefore I can say with confidence that by the inconceivable and undeserved mercy of Guru and Krishna I've been spared the torment of my previous sinful activities. Instead I've been given this wonderful opportunity to chant and dance in the association of the Vaisnavas. Jaya Sacinandana!"
I feel that this is an attitude that would evoke deep affection and reverence from any serious devotee. It transcends social designations and at the same time doesn't deny them.
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I appreciate your honest sentiments and believe you may actually mean no harm in quoting the long list of Srila Prabhupada's negative statements against homosexual behavior. Nevertheless, this still isn't a good way to preach and I don't see devotees constantly posting negative statements against Blacks--only toward gay people.
These statements don't insult me personally but I am very concerned about their usage in terms of new people and younger gay devotees. The negativity simply drives people away from Krsna. It is not your duty to humiliate others or to make them feel "less," even if such an attitude is advantageous in spiritual life. Furthermore, some of the statements are literally not true, such as the idea that homosexuality in men is caused by overindulgence with women, or that there is no homosexuality in the animal kingdom. These were common notions during the early-twentieth century but have long since been disproven, so why continue to quote them? Any educated person hearing such quotes will simply role back their eyes and walk away from the devotees.
Gay people have been bashed over the head again and again with these quotes and it gets very tiring. Don't you think we know what the four principles are by now? Do you assume we are not following them and need to be reminded about them by you? These quotes discourage not only gay people, but also their friends, family members, loved ones, co-workers, peers and open-minded people in general. At the very least, I would expect you or any other sincere devotee to minimize the amount of negative quotes and concentrate more on Srila Prabhupada's positive statements ("What is the difference if a person is held in this material world by a gold chain, or by a silver chain?"), his favorable comments about the homosexual and transgender "eunuch" class of India (the third sex), or his friendly dealings with openly homosexual people like Allen Ginsberg. That would be much more effective in attracting souls to Krsna consciousness and portray a more positive image of His Divine Grace.
If we quote only Srila Prabhupada's harsh and negative comments people will think he was some nasty tyrant who hated gay people! Is that really the image you want to portray? I'd be much more careful about that if I were you. I do not mean any offense but am simply trying to help you improve your preaching style.
Thanks for helping me to improve my preaching style.
Respectfully, I'm just wondering why you're under the assumption that I don't have the discrimination whether or not to present these quotes to new or beginning gay devotees? Here we are discussing philosophy and application of philosophy amongst ourselves. That's a tough thing for me to do without reference to Srila Prabhupada.
you wrote: "That would be much more effective in attracting souls to Krsna consciousness and portray a more positive image of His Divine Grace."
Personally I'm satisfied to let His Divine Grace speak for himself. Its not my function to portray him the way I want to based on my perception of what people are attracted to. He is who he is. Isn't that wonderful though? Or is Srila Prabhupada subtly being accused here of "bad preaching"? I hope not. :S
you wrote: "These statements don't insult me personally but I am very concerned about their usage in terms of new people and younger gay devotees. The negativity simply drives people away from Krsna. It is not your duty to humiliate others or to make them feel "less," even if such an attitude is advantageous in spiritual life."
I never meant to insult anyone by quoting Srila Prabhupada. I don't think he was insulting anyone in particular either. He was just teaching us. I'm happy to listen to him and learn.
I never assumed that it was my "duty to humiliate others or make them feel less". Why am I being reprimanded for it? I don't think that such an attitude is advantageous for spiritual life either. rather ... trnad api sunicena
you wrote: "Don't you think we know what the four principles are by now? Do you assume we are not following them and need to be reminded about them by you?"
no. i think I've made my position clear in previous posts. When we delve into these sort of discussions of course we should do it with unbiased reference to guru, sadhu and sastras. This is an educational initiative so we need to look at all the facts and not just pick the one's that prop up our agendas. (by the way - i appreciate that you shared the story with Shyamasundara Prabhu - "gold chains or silver chains" - I'd not heard that before)
Quoting a bunch of negative affirmations by Srila Prabhupada in a given context can have bad consequences in the preaching.
It is not that because "Srila Prabhupada said" you can quote any time, to any person, specially not in "bulk" mode.
Part of Srila Prabhupada greatness is time and circumstance preaching, that is why he attracted and continues to attract people from all walks of life.
If a person feels offended it is our fault, 95 % of times.
We should not ruin his words (and his movement) by its indiscriminate use
"Quoting a bunch of negative affirmations by Srila Prabhupada" ....
whether or not those statements are negative is a subjective call. I don't consider anything spoken by His Divine Grace to be negative.
and yes. please get off my case. i do have enough sense not to blast guests and newcomers with these quotes (or quotes on blacks or women or four-headed Brahmas) simply because they aren't conditioned to accept them. i will bring them up in a discussion amongst devotees who are trying to learn something about the topic though. Isn't that what we are doing here? If not, then please pardon me as I leave the discussion.
I think the thing here is context. Any kind of quote removes the quoted material from its context. For example, from a Prabhupada letter from today in history: "Make it a first-class temple, there will be no lack of visitors, you will never even have to leave that place for preaching."
Is this an argument for focusing on the temple and not going out?
The next line gives us some more idea of context, who Srila Prabhupada was speaking to in this case, and their circumstances: "And if you serve nice prasadam, the whole of India will come."
So this was sent to someone in India.
So every quote removes context. Putting a bunch of different quotes together creates a new context. So we have to be careful about context. Comments and commentary that Srila Prabhupada made were made in different contexts - to different people, in different settings, and for different specific circumstances and purposes. We need to be careful about reproducing them.
A common propaganda technique is to cut and paste comments by someone to create a new context. It is often done in videos to parody someone. For example, we might make a video of repeated pauses and "umms" and "ahs" by a politician to make them seem indecisive and unintelligent.
Aggregating Srila Prabhupada's comments like this removes them from their surrounding context, and creates another context. With such a hot-button issue as homosexuality, where people are already facing discrimination and condemnation, it might not be such a good idea.
Amara das' parallel with black people is perhaps a good one. Is it a good idea to make a big cut and paste quote-fest of "Srila Prabhupada on Women's Intelligence", or "Srila Prabhupada on Black People"? Maybe for one's own personal consumption, but probably not for an audience without intimate knowledge of the wider context that these quotes were taken from. It removes a lot of context, creates a new context that Srila Prabhupada did not speak in, and does not take into account the context that the audience exists in, which will affect how something like this is perceived.
After reading your sensible reply (that didn't accuse me of harboring a prejudicial or mean-spirited attitude) I have to basically agree with you. Stringing together a list of quotes from Srila Prabhupada on an issue can certainly give people the wrong impression.
I just don't like it when people get into mapping out ISKCON's social trajectory with sparse reference or acknowledgment of Srila Prabhupada's views. I joined ISKCON because I wanted to take shelter of his teachings - I stay in ISKCON because I think its the place I'm most likely to have the association of devotees who feel the same.
Here's a doubt that comes to my mind though: a thorough list of "Srila Prabhupada on Women's Intelligence", or "Srila Prabhupada on Black People" quotations would also include the many encouraging statements he made in reference to them. If anyone were to read through all of the statements they'd certainly get the idea that Srila Prabhupada wasn't prejudiced against anyone - at the same time he spoke plainly.
Certainly he wanted everyone to engage wholeheartedly in Krishna Consciousness including the homosexually inclined. Even the most directly disapproving quotation (the 1975 letter to Lilananda Prabhu quoted towards the beginning of this thread) was encouraging in the sense that Srila Prabhupada didn't reject him outright for being a homosexual. Rather, he strongly and compassionately encouraged him to give up the degrading homosexual activity.
Regarding "context": I think this whole discussion started off in a 'hot' way by the underdeveloped fervor of a young devotee. Why I initially chose to lean in on this particular discussion here escapes me at the moment. I'd much prefer a mature and appreciative dialogue with devotees like Amara Prabhu and yourself where mutual respect and Vaisnava affection were more apparent to me. I'm trying to make this apparent in my posts but since I'm not such a good writer sometimes it must sound like I'm angry or condemning. I'm just taking an analytical approach here and I'm also trying to thoughtfully listen to everyone's input.
I must say I've also really appreciated the civil dialog by everyone on this group.
> [Sitapati:] Is it a good idea to make a big cut and paste quote-fest of "Srila Prabhupada on Women's Intelligence", or "Srila Prabhupada on Black People"? Maybe for one's own personal consumption, but probably not for an audience without intimate knowledge of the wider context that these quotes were taken from.
Thanks for saying this. To me, these types of postings come off as a type of attack, even if they are preceded by kind words. If the subjects of these lists feel offended, and if it only serves to turn them away, then what is the point of utilizing such an overwhelming method in the first place? It would be better to make the point using a single, representative quote mixed in with the kind statements--bitter medicine served in a sweet syrup, so to speak. Typically, when I come across a barrage of these quotes on the Internet it is from someone who is very anti-gay. In this regard, I am sorry if I misjudged Ekendra Prabhu.
We may have to "agree to disagree" on this one. In general, though, I believe very strongly in positive preaching. When new people ask me about Hare Krishna and women, for instance, I always quote BG 10:34 first of all ["Among women I am fame, fortune, fine speech, memory, intelligence, steadfastness and patience."] I also describe Srila Prabhupada's encouragement of women to serve equally as priests and give lectures. I never tell them Srila Prabhupada's negative statements against women initially. That can be done at a later time, very carefully, and in the correct context.
I guess everyone has their own particular preaching style, though, and I've also seen many really bad examples in my day! In some cases, the "preacher" wasn't even aware that he had just successfully terminated the new person's budding interest in Krsna. That is very sad to me!
Pranams. The morning program was great today. I kept thinking of this discussion and what it must be like to be attacked all of the time just for having the self-honesty to not conceal who you are. It would certainly develop in me a hardened and defensive outer-shell.
I certainly agree that our philosophy DOES address the issue of homosexual orientation in a sensible way. Sadly, there is a lack of even basic education in our movement at present so a list of quotes without the supporting context may just serve to enhance ignorance and fear. Perhaps I assume too much of an audience and expect everyone to be able to contextualize these quotes in a compassionate Vaisnava way.
I also agree that its ridiculous to whack unsuspecting folks over the head with stuff that's far beyond their comprehension and conditioning. This sort of smug blatancy is pretty impersonal and I try to avoid it myself. I'd never use these quotations for public preaching although I guess anyone could read this forum. In posting the list of quotations I was trying, albeit in a weighty manner, to open up a discussion amongst established devotees (my assumption) where all points are considered from gurus, sadhus and sastras.
Perhaps this conversation deserves a new thread? I'd prefer that.
I'll call the new thread "Understanding Naimittika and Nitya Dharmas in the 21st Century" inspired by Sita-pati Prabhu's recently expressed appreciation for Jaiva Dharma. (This book is a powerful reference for getting things sorted! Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura is often credited for being able to deliver the entire world himself. After reading this book its easier to see why.)
ekendra Prabhu, you are welcome to open any number of new threads, actually we love that :) just that we call the thread "question" for the sake of desired functionality and purpose. thank you all for being so nice, knowledgeable and accommodating vaishnavas.
Sure, close the thread if you like. Thanks for allowing the topic to be discussed in the first place! I would like to add this final quote from Srila Prabhupada, which in my opinion nicely sums up the ultimate conclusion on all of these controversial social issues:
"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater [outcaste]." ("Bhagavad-gita As It Is, 5.18)
