What does it mean to be an Iskcon member?

caballero_vaishnava

Would like to know feelings and positions about this in relation with the ISKCON constitution project.

abhiram

This thread can become like the one about the jiva's falldown. :)

afflelou

If the Constitution is setup, will mean who is approved following certain patterns of behaviour, etc

meme

wouldn't that be to constrain membership by law = sectarian approach?

abhiram

maybe being an iskcon member means to tolerate all kind of abuses by authorities and not being able to say anything or you are OUT of iskcon.

mishra

If something is not done, if things continue like this, all our "brains" are going to flee. And then the new era of ISKCON corporation paid servants will begin.

Illicit Blue

Iskcon is non-different from Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya. Can we also say it's non-different from the behavior of some of its so called members?

phani

according to sesa prabhu, chairman of the GBC constitution committee, they are presently trying to figure that out (http://www.dandavats.com/?p=3901).

Illicit Blue:
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"Iskcon is non-different from Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya. Can we also say it's non-different from the behavior of some of its so called members?"
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i tend to think that ISKCON is the sum-total of all of us. while SP was present (vapu), any nonsense was more than counterbalanced by him. he's still present - to the degree we follow his instructions and desire.

like the heaviest demons are part of krsna, i'm afraid the biggest rascals among us are also part of ISKCON. we aren't nearly perfect, most of us, and neither is ISKCON. but it's still the only show in town, as far as i'm concerned.

quite a few prominent falldowns, examples of nasty behavior, politics, etc., attract everybody's attention. but don't forget thousands of devotees who quietly do their service, chant hare krsna, and preach. i think this more than counterbalances the evil present among us.

i'm living in sri mayapur and there are many things i don't like; some i'm really upset about. but when my mind wants to freak out about that, i just have to imagine what mayapur would look like if you put ME in charge, for six month or one year ... this usually gets me back to reality really quick.

i'm not perfect, many others aren't either, and all we can do is keep trying. if i'm such a rascal, how can i demand that everybody else is perfect? i find it actually surprising how well ISKCON still runs, after SP's disappearance. and i do have hope for it to improve - because it's SP's desire, and krsna does act in wonderful ways.

ys phani.

mishra

Dear phani, with all respects your post embodies the "better worse known than good to know", "do not do anything it will be worse", "too fallen to talk", "let the leaders lead", "iskcon is indestructible-self purifying body", "who i am", "too humble to denounce",."be like the bee not like the flea" ,"all is well as long as I am well" dysfunctional attitude.

To say something positive, yes I agree when Srila Prabhupada was present he counterbalanced the nonsense of his leaders, and to the degree we follow his instructions he is still present. Are we following his instructions so that counterbalance is taking place?

I doubt it by the results.

caballero_vaishnava

to phani,
I wonder what is that makes you stay in a, lets talk plain, corrupt place...where you live
a) it is less corrupt than outside?
b) just personal convenience?
c) fear of the outside?
d) chanting Hare Krishna justifies everything after all?
e) other.. please specify

phani

that's not what i meant to say; sorry that i didn't manage to express myself better.

i don't say we should sit down, do nothing, and hope that "they" (leaders, krsna, whoever) come to the right conclusions, make things better. it depends very much on all of us.

the zonal-acarya era didn't stop by itself, but because devotees spoke up, couldn't take it any longer. at that time there was more reason to believe that everything was lost, i believe, than there is now.

it's very much necessary to speak up, help to make things better, beginning from ourselves, extending to whatever sphere of influence we may have. i don't know about you, mishra, but i myself am prone to errors, don't understand many things correctly, and have to learn a lot. therefore i tend to give others, even leaders, the benefit of the doubt until i'm sure of what i'm talking about. many things are more complex than they seem from my present perspective - which doesn't make everything right, of course.

things aren't ideal, in some cases pretty bad. but i think some of us paint them much darker than they are. it isn't easy to come to the right decisions & conclusions if you don't have someone like srila prabhupada around who knows exactly what's the right thing to do in any given situation.

ys phani.

phani

to caballero_vaishnava:

i don't think that mayapur is a particularly corrupt place. certainly less so than the world outside. (west bengal is one of the more corrupt states in a corrupt country.) corruption isn't the problem i'm having with how mayapur is being managed. i do see some problems, but no easy solutions to them. as i said, if you'd put me in charge, i couldn't do any better than the present management - but much worse.

things have improved a lot here in recent years. at one time mayapur was run by a gang of gung-ho fanatics and gundas, but that's long over. it is difficult to organize and manage a large community that consists of everything from staunch brahmacaris and sannyasis, to free-wheeling western devotees with little regard for vedic culture. and as everywhere, you find devotees who are less pure, more interested in their personal facilities and enjoyment, as well as very advanced ones. advanced devotees are naturally humble, though, and don't push themselves into positons where they could do a lot of good. quite the opposite, in fact.

things are still improving, and i don't see any reason to leave mayapur. chanting hare krsna doesn't excuse everything, but it offers a chance to become a devotee and learn to serve krsna. especially in the holy dham.

ys phani.

walter433

Corruption has many levels.

It is worse for a sannyasi to have intimate connections with girls, than for karmis to be greedy, and even mafia.

In this regard I see irreligion posed as religion as the worse corruption you can have.

I am not talking about mistakes, but hardcore sinful activities performed by "devotees".

This "living in the holy dham" is not actually part of our philosophy or our orders by Srila Prabhupada, who himself came out to preach. to set the example.

Does not constitute anymore than "punya", but not the sacred order of the spiritual master.

If we had spiritual vision, then I could sympathize with someone living in the holy dhama in direct contact with Krishna, but usually our position is far less advanced, specially shown by the bhajananandi tendency in opposition to our param guru instructions.

amalagaura

SB 6.5.28:
"Our Krishna consciousness movement has therefore established two very large centers, one in Vrindavana and another in Mayapur, Navadwipa. There one may bathe in the Ganges or Yamuna, chant the Hare Krishna mantra and thus become perfect and return home, back to Godhead."

Of course if someone is able to preach all over the world then certainly he is more advanced, but Shrila Prabhupada did want a spiritual community in the holy places.

I think ISKCON is improving but it is difficult to get a high caliber of leaders for various reasons.

phani

walter 433:
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It is worse for a sannyasi to have intimate connections with girls, than for karmis to be greedy, and even mafia.

In this regard I see irreligion posed as religion as the worse corruption you can have.

I am not talking about mistakes, but hardcore sinful activities performed by "devotees".
---------------

which 'hardcore sinful activities' are you talking about? i know of kids who got caught smoking dope, boys associating with girls improperly, etc. i'm afraid that's going on all over the world, unfortunately in the holy dham, too - if to a much lesser extent than in places i know in the west.

i'm not aware of any sannyasi engaged in the type of activity you mention after bhavananda left. are you talking about what happened long ago, or about mayapur today?

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This "living in the holy dham" is not actually part of our philosophy or our orders by Srila Prabhupada, who himself came out to preach. to set the example.
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pure nonsense! i'm too lazy to look up the quote for you, but rest assured that "desiring to live in the holy dham" is one of the qualities of a vaisnava. yes, preaching is better than residing in the dham, but i don't claim to be on your level of advancement. i'm not a vaisnava, at least not yet, but do desire to live in the holy dham, and my desire got fulfilled. as long as the dham will have me, i'll stay.

i also don't think that i'm a "bhajanandi," at least i don't get much pleasure out of my bhajan. i'm far less than that, actually, but that's besides the point.

wishing you all success in your untiring preaching activities in the west,
ys phani.

walter433

for your information as per request,

from the past:
http://www.chakra.org/discussions/GurOct19_03.html

same individual few months ago:
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-06/editorials1077.htm

phani

"or your information as per request, ..."

i didn't look at the links from the past since i'm pretty well aware what was happening then. HH BVP maharaja wasn't exactly spotless; mainly because he should have opposed those in charge, but he didn't - like hardly anybody, for a long, long time.

but he certainly wasn't the devil some are trying to make out of him.

re. this incident with the 23 year old girl, it's the first thing i hear about it. (my house is some 1.5 km away from the ISKCON temple, and i don't spend much time there, nowadays.)

the sun-article you quote doesn't convince me. polemic stuff rarely does. not knowing anything about the "case," though, i'm not going to try to argue it, one way or the other.

but even if we assume, for argument's sake, that HH BVPS did touch that girl on the motorbike, that he did sleep in that girls' asram, that hardly qualifies as the type of criminal, abhorrent behavior you were talking about.

if the worst is true (and i don't think it is), it's another case of a sannyasi not being able to maintain his vows. pretty bad, but nothing i'm going to loose sleep over.

sorry if this disappoints you,
ys phani.

walter433

just in case you had a daughter studying there...
otherwise do not worry, we can manage, used to scandal these days.

phani

... oh, i forgot:

i do feel bad about bhavananda coming back to mayapur, even though not as a sannyasi, and not as a leader of devotees.

he's connected with the new temple project which, for some reason (legal or financial) doesn't seem to be able to do without him.

i don't like it, but i don't feel he's a threat to anybody. i've seen him around here a couple of months ago. he's an old man now. he doesn't appear as humble to me as i would have hoped for him, but i can't be sure, since i didn't have (and don't want to have) any association with him.

he's certainly not going after any kids anymore.

ys phani.

admin

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please try not to get personal, stick to the question formulated by caballero_vaishnava, thanks

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