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Social: [Closed] Are the present "Gurus" Uttama Adhikari?"

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    To my great disappointment, my old friend Umapati prabhu, formerly Umapati Swami, who by the way preaches in China as Diksa Guru has been charged with homosexual acts with his disciples. There appears to be a mountain of evidence to the accusations. My understanding at the current moment is that he will become a "Retired Swami" as Satavarupa prabhu is now known as, due to his affair with his shrink. in any event, To the participants of this site, this is the latest. Please feel free to comment, share any info you may have on the subject matter. Admin; I will send you forwards as to the specifics, letters and so forth regarding this issue. For now let us see what your audience has to say.
  2.  
    Admin. send me an address where I can send the letters, etc. regarding Umapati prabhu. Please send thru my personal address.
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      CommentAuthorabhiram
    • CommentTimeFeb 17th 2008 edited
     
    oh no... I can see it coming.
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeFeb 17th 2008
     
    Vaisnava audience should pray for all involved so the damage is as minimal as possible.
    Thankful People: janhava
  5.  
    To Veda prabhu; Yes Veda you're absolutely correct, we should all pray for Umapati prabhu, Satsvarupa das, and all the others who are posing themselves off as the guru. We should pray that Krsna provides them with the intelligence to do the right thing and assume their actual positions, as opposed to attempting to maintain "The Profile" of Diksa Guru. The GBC has created a new title for the continuing fallen "guru's to keep the truth within their orbit exclusively. Hence forward, they are to be known as "Retired Swami's". The term is obviously a contradiction and complete nonsense. Translated it means, retired from controlling ones senses. Yet, they still want to maintain their disciples and Guru status. If the Guru cannot control his own senses, how could he possibly instruct others to do so and act in the capacity of Guru? Therefore, he cannot by definition be Guru, and should be known as such The damage control you speak of cannot be minimized. How could it be? He (Umapati) admitted the accusations. Aside from that, why can't they simply speak the truth of the matter. Why is it so difficult to call a spade a spade? Obviously they are, and have been at the point of no return since Prabhupada's physical departure from this world. The damage is so devastating, that minimizing it would be impossible. Furthermore, the more they perpetuate the damage control the hole they put themselves in will naturally get deeper and deeper. Any attempt to do so would be dishonest and absurd. Anyone that buys into it is fool number one. But fear not, the "powers that be" will do everything they can to attempt some sort of damage control and give the same title to Umapati that they gave Satsvarupa. Plain and simple; The Guru does not fall down! Therefore, all of the appointed guru's are conditioned souls like the rest of us and should act as such; Representative of the Uttama adikari Srila Prabhupada. Nothing more and nothing less. Not one single person in authority has come forward to speak the truth regarding these ongoing fall downs. So, that simply implies that they too are implicated in some form or another. Otherwise, someone would have come forward and related the truth about all the unfortunate events that continue to take place, and act accordingly in all honesty. Then and only then, will the once revered ISKCON be rightly situated. That being, continuing Srila Prabhupad's mission as He instructed.
  6.  
    Abhiram prabhu, what is it that you can see coming? Please share your foresight.
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      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeFeb 17th 2008
     
    Are the present "Gurus" Uttama Adikari?"

    Also pray for Brahma, Vyasa and poor Bilvanmangala please. Two of them are still present and I suggest that devotees take initiation from them directly in order to avoid confusion of liivng in the real world. But be careful with Brahma, he is not allowed to enter ISKCON temples ... as you all know.
  8.  
    CCD, I don't understand your comment. Are you being sarcastic or what? Why should anyone take initiation from these people you mention directly in order to avoid confusion of living in the real world? What is this confusion of living in the real world you speak of? Don't pull any punches with me, just give it to me straight up Bubba. What exactly do you mean by your comment?
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      CommentAuthoranupatha
    • CommentTimeFeb 18th 2008
     
    Only for somebody here maybe doesn't know it ... here are some quotes of Srila Prabhupada's intentions regarding his desciples becoming gurus:

    It is not that you have become a student and you'll remain student. No. One day you shall become also guru and make more students, more students, more. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission, not that perpetually... Yes, one should remain perpetually a student, but he has to act as guru. That is the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

    76-09-01.Jag Letter: Jagajivana
    Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated July 27, 1976 and have noted the contents with care. I am very pleased that you have taken up this mission of spreading the Krsna consciousness movement all over the world. This is the wish of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu that, yare dakho tare kaho krsna upadesa, everyone you see or meet, tell him about krsna; amara ajnaya guru haya tara ei desa, and by My command you become a guru and save this land. This was also the mission of my guru maharaj and it is my mission. You will perfect your life if you make it also your mission.

    770415rc.bom Conversations
    Prabhupada: "Like father, like son." You should be. Gaurangera bhakta..., jane. Everyone. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa. He asked everyone, "Just become guru." Follow His instruction. You become guru. Amara ajnaya. Don't manufacture ideas. Amara ajnaya. "What I say, you do. You become a guru." Where is the difficulty? "And what is Your ajna?" Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa. Bas. Everything is there in the Bhagavad- gita. You simply repeat. That's all. You become guru. To become a guru is not difficult job. Follow Caitanya Mahaprabhu and speak what Krsna has said. Bas. You become guru.

    68-12-03.Ham Letter: Hamsaduta
    Next January there will be an examination on this Bhagavad-gita. Papers will be sent by me to all centers, and those securing the minimum passing grade will be given the title as Bhakti-sastri. Similarly, another examination will be held on Lord Caitanya's Appearance Day in February, 1970 and it will be upon Srimad- Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita. Those passing will get the title of Bhakti-vaibhava. Another examination will be held sometimes in 1971 on the four books, Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, and Nectar of Devotion. One who will pass this examination will be awarded with the title of Bhaktivedanta. I want that all of my spiritual sons and daughters will inherit this title of Bhaktivedanta, so that the family transcendental diploma will continue through the generations. Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program. So we should not simply publish these books for reading by outsiders, but our students must be well versed in all of our books so that we can be prepared to defeat all opposing parties in the matter of self- realization.
    • CommentAuthorkes
    • CommentTimeFeb 18th 2008
     
    Reading that email1 the letter from Praghosa Prabhu makes so much sense, I feel it would solve so many problems at once, if only those in authority would take note. I do not know Praghosa Prabhu but I hope he can get the pocess put in place in ISKCON, it would mean more choice & honesty for everyone.
  11.  
    Here's the bottom line. Throughtout Vedic history we clearly see that between the appearances of great personalities within the Prarampara System, The Krsna Consciousness movement gets reduced to mediocrity. An institution with no real spiritual leadership. Only polititians. Without Prabhupada's physical presence to check these activities, the movement has once again been reduced to a mediocre institution. Equivalent to the Catholic Church for example. The point is, we have yet to see the Uttama Adikari, at least in ISKCON. The appointed Diksa Guru system obviously doesn't work. Can anyone deny? As time passes, these "Diksa Gurus" are dropping like flies. And the persons who don"t come forward with the truth of these matters is as guilty as the perpetrators themselves. The Uttama Adikari doesn't fall down. If people in general choose to accept anything less as their Guru, that is their business. The fact is, one must be qualified to be Diksa Guru, not appointed as such. In any event, it's obvious my attempts to help relate this simple understanding is futile. At least kes got it. It's simple. As kes said, " It makes so much sense " Anyway, what can one say? Hare Krsna. All glories to Prabhupada.
    Thankful People: supreeth
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      CommentAuthorabhiram
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2008
     
    yes i am convinced...i will become a ritvik now. thank you!
    Thankful People: nayendra chatooah
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      CommentAuthorsitapati
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    I don't understand... we take formal initiation from someone formally initiated by Srila Prabhupada and this represents our formal initiation into the sampradaya.

    We take shelter of Srila Prabhupada's instruction and read his books scrutinizingly every day.

    What else can you do? Do away with the formal initiation?

    I honestly do not see the difference between ritvik and "non-ritvik" except that it represents a different group of people who want to be the initiators, or do ritviks representatives claim to be pure devotees?

    Everyone knows that the diksa guru can fall down, because this is the material world. And everyone knows that Srila Prabhupada can never fall down, so what's the issue?
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      CommentAuthorsitapati
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    Also, having a homosexual relationship with a disciple is not in itself sufficient grounds to disqualify someone from the role of guru, although it may indicate that they require some time to rectify themselves (hence the idea of "retirement" from active duty). Have a look at this conversation here, around Sri Krishna Bhajanamrita by Srila Narahari Sarkar: http://www.atmayogi.com/node/384#comment-511
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      CommentAuthormishra
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    "Also, having a homosexual relationship with a disciple is not in itself sufficient grounds to disqualify someone from the role of guru"
    I dismayed and fell to the ground. Do not argue, am brain dead.
  16.  
    "having a homosexual relationship with a disciple is not in itself sufficient grounds to disqualify someone from the role of guru,"
    must be "according to time and circumstance", or is that "only in the australlian
    yatra" ?
  17.  
    If one choose to take initiation from ordinary condition souls, as I said, that is his unfortunate business. If having a homosexual relationship with anyone, let alone one of your disciples isn't grounds for disqualification as guru than I am certainly perplexed as to what would be. If that's not enough grounds for rejection and without question, disqualification, than all parties involved in that statement have just simply openly displayed the degree of poison they have been injected with to actually buy into such a thing. That has got to be the most absurd statement I ever heard in my entire life. I cannot believe it. Wow! Things are much worse than I had thought. In any event, please enlighten me prabhu's and tell me what ARE the grounds for the disqualification of a guru having sexual relationships with his disciples, what to speak of homosexual relations??? "From the anus of Bramha." This is the origin of the homosexuals living entities. They are without a doubt, lower forms of human life. This is stated in Satsta. Therefore, how can such a living entity act as Guru? How can his actions be justified while attempting to act as Guru? He may aspire to be a devotee, if he controls his senses, but if he cannot do so, he absolutely has no business passing himself off as Guru and cannot be accepted as such. He cannot be accepted as Guru in any category, acting, retired, semi-retired, or whatever label they choose for him. There is no argument here. I can only simply pray for anyone out there who thinks along these lines.
    Be careful what you say abhiram prabhu, YOUR "guru" may be next.
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      CommentAuthorabhiram
    • CommentTimeFeb 26th 2008 edited
     
    sitapati:Also, having a homosexual relationship with a disciple is not in itself sufficient grounds to disqualify someone from the role of guru,
    prabhu...are you serious????
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      CommentAuthorsitapati
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2008
     
    Follow the link I gave and read the sastra. If you want to continue to discuss you then introduce some sastra as a counter point.
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      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2008
     
    I agree with sita pati - any evidence should be supported by sastra. I do not think you will find much evidence where bhakti-marge sucess is conditioned by material adhikara. But sastra praman is essential for this sort of discussion, not just translations of the translation of tikas or timpanies, you should refer to sruti or smriti to be conclusive. ys
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      CommentAuthormishra
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2008
     
    back from the dead....

    apart from common sense, what about:

    vaco vegam manasah krodha vegam
    jihva-vegam udaropastha-vegam
    etan vegan yo visaheta dhirah
    sarvam apimam prthivim sa sisyat
    (verse 1)

    "A wise and self-composed person who can subdue the impetus to speak, the agitation of the mind, the onset of anger, the vehemence of the tongue, the urge of the belly and the agitation of the genitals can instruct the entire world. In other words, all persons may become disciples of such a self-controlled person."
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      CommentAuthorsitapati
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2008
     
    Just to amplify on that a little bit: This discussion must take place on the basis of sastra, not simply popular sentiment.

    The indicated smrti-sastra is Narahari Sarkar's Sri Krishna Bhajanamrita, which I linked to in my original posting.

    Many people have a misunderstanding about the role and nature of guru.

    Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura's initiating guru was Srila Bipin Bihari das Goswami. Heard of him? His name does not appear in the Disiciplic Succession at the start of the Bhagavad-gita. In fact, many of the initiating gurus in our line do not appear there. The reason is that only the most prominent and powerful personalities appear.

    What is the implication of this? The implication is that the disciple or student can be more powerful than the guru, and that some gurus are more important in the bigger picture than others. Not all gurus are maha-bhagavat paramahamsas who get in the list. In other words, while every person in that list took initiation from a diksa guru, their diksha guru was not always of the stature to get into the list.

    Diksha gurus are human beings. They are also spiritual practitioners of varying strength - hence Narahari Sarkar's comparison of them to waves of different sizes. They are all spiritual, but even so, some are more potent than others. Some may be siddhas. Others are sadhakas. Some may fall from the path, or experience difficulty. Therefore Narahari Sarkar has written about this. He gives the process that a disciple should follow when he observes his guru engaged in activity that he should not be engaged in (such as having an affair with a disciple).

    He does not say: "This is proof that that person is bogus and they should be rejected at once!"

    The mere fact that he gives a process to deal with situation is evidence that such a situation is not only possible, but actually not at all surprising. It is not expected that all gurus are maha-bhagavat paramahamsas, nor do they need to be.

    The process is that the guru should be confronted in private and the inappropriate behaviour respectfully brought to their attention, and the disciple should preach to them to rectify their consciousness.

    The disciple should take shelter of devotional service, and previous instructions, his own intelligence, or another senior Vaisnava to maintain himself while he waits for the guru to rectify himself.

    This says two things: one is that misbehaviour is possible and not an "i guess you weren't a pure devotee after all, so you weren't a bona-fide guru" affair, and the other is that misbehaviour is not an automatic disqualification (my point).

    Narahari Sarkar then explains that if the guru does not rectify himself and develops further symptoms of deviation, mainly based around philosophical misconception, then he should be given up.

    One's guru may be of limited spiritual potency and may struggle, but if he is sincere then having accepted him one should not abandon him in difficult times. However, if he is proud and dishonest, and philosophically deviates, then he should be given up.

    I'll take Narahari Sarkar's advice over vox populi any day of the week. :-)
    •  
      CommentAuthorsitapati
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2008
     
    Mishra, to your point two things:

    Number one is that this says that such a person can become spiritual master of the whole world. It does not say that other persons cannot be spiritual masters. Cintamani is accepted by Bilvamangala Thakura as one of his spiritual masters.

    Number two is that we have to distinguish between a temporary deviation and a more serious and sustained deviation. This is the meaning of the Bhagavad-gita verse about the saintly person who commits sinful activity. Things happen because this is the material world and we're all human beings. That's why Narahari Sarkar has written about it the way he has. If someone deviates from this standard, then they have the opportunity to rectify themselves. That's my point. Let me restate it, taking out the sexual orientation part, because it's irrelevant, and highlighting an important point:

    "Having a [...]sexual relationship with a disciple is not *in itself* sufficient grounds to disqualify someone from the role of guru, although it may indicate that they require some time to rectify themselves."

    I would modify this to say:

    "Their having had a sexual relationship with a disciple is not in itself sufficient grounds to reject your initiating guru; however it does mean that they need to rectify their behaviour in order to continue in that role."
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      CommentAuthorsitapati
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2008
     
    You see, for someone to have sexual relations with a disciple, or some other sensual deviation, and still be able to transmit the philosophy properly they have to be able to say:

    "This is the philosophy, and I'm out of it. I'm having a really hard time with my senses and I can't make the standard."

    This person cannot be rejected but should be supported and helped. On the other hand the person who modifies the philosophy to deny that they have a problem and that they are deviating from the standard has to be rejected if they persist.

    In this light, based on the publicly available information that I am aware of I would not have rejected Prthu Prabhu had he been my initiating guru, but I would have rejected Harikesa Swami.
    •  
      CommentAuthormishra
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2008 edited
     
    Looks like the grhasta guru you mention and others, hided for years his sexual problems, while posing as strict followers. That is called cheating and falls into your last category.

    The whole point is that selecting a spiritual master is totally subjective, Now if the disciple in the privacy of his life wants to still worship that person, it is their prerogative. After all, people tend to worship fakes all the time, and that could be the almost sure case, being the world not so plentiful of Bilvamangala Thakurs and advanced prostitutes.

    But when is time to generalize, certainly we shouldn't be pointing out the punctual and special cases like the prostitute and Bilvamangala, but to categorically affirm that NO, a person who has had sexual connection with disciples (recent case with a male disciple) is NOT fit to represent our acarya Srila Prabhupada.

    Now you can twist the twirl, but in our present context is a definite no, no.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2008
     
    Im still waiting for any clarification (not on jagat-guru but) on regular guru sastric statemnts from smrti/sruti

    There are examples of sexual connection between guru disciple in vaisnava line of both Advata and Nityananda lines. Ramacandra Kaviraja on contrary is an example of disciple of the daughter of Srinivasa acarya (who had two consorts) and he started his apa-sampradaya saying that only sannyasi can be a guru.

    I wonder if anyone here thinks like that? That only a sannyasi can be a guru and a woman or a young married man can not.

    Does anyone here thinks that sudra can not be a guru? (not talking about jagat guru)

    ys
    •  
      CommentAuthorsitapati
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2008 edited
     
    Mishra, the point is that the guru is to be given an opportunity to rectify themselves. The situation has to be dealt with with maturity and sensitivity - that is Narahari Sarkar's point - not as the pendulum swing of a someone who idolizes the guru as an rockstar / avatara and then fanatically rejects not only their own guru, but practically everyone else as well.

    Last night I was reading a commentary on Sri Isopanisad and the author was saying that we should not have an unhealthy dependence on any one of guru, sadhu, and sastra, nor an unhealthy extreme independence from them.

    To me I see an unhealthy dependence on guru followed by an unhealthy independence. Guru is one of the three, and he is fallible. That's why we have three. He's a person and he has to be treated like one, not like some impersonal machine which is thrown out if it doesn't perform perfectly.

    The ISKCON institutional guru aspect creates a strange dynamic as there is public pressure on gurus to "hold the line" publicly.

    I think the Guru seminars that they are talking about in the recent GBC meetings will help these guys out.
    •  
      CommentAuthorsitapati
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2008 edited
     
    CCD:

    kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya
    yei krishna-tattva-vetta, sei 'guru' haya

    "Whether one is a brahmana, a sannyasi or a sudra -- regardless of what he is -- he can become a spiritual master if he knows the science of Krishna."

    Caitanya Caritamrita Madhya 8.128

    So this also relates to the Upadeshamrita verse that Mishra prabhu quoted. That verse is conditional. This verse is universal. The qualification to be guru is to know the science of Krishna. The qualification to be jagat-guru is that given in Upadeshamrita.

    I was confused for a little while about your introduction of the term "jagat-guru" - at first I thought you meant "Jagat Guru" (Chris Butler) who was a sannyasi and then married the wife of one of his disciples. Anyway, not to muddy the waters more - I understand that you mean "one who is qualified to make disciples all over the world", as referred to by Srila Rupa Goswami in his Upadeshamrita.

    Sexual connection between guru and disciple (except in the case of pati-guru, which means the husband, who is the natural spiritual master of the wife) is socially inappropriate.

    In Vedic culture women were not initiated by someone other than their husband. The way that ISKCON has things structured right now introduces a socially distorting factor, but that's a whole other conversation.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2008
     
    thanks sitapati pr.

    btw sudra means one who is influenced by lower modes.

    there is HUGE need in ISKCON for smaller gurus, who DO NOT make disciples all over the place but actually care for them. Yes Sita thakurani and Jahnavi Mata our acaryas, and they were in a relationship with with thier husbands who also gave them the mantra and the seat of an acarya.

    Not only husband can intiate a woman, woman gurus initated women at the time. Also father passes it over to his daughters.

    BTW one should not think oneself a guru and its better to think oneself fallen and be fallen, then think oneself a guru and act as if one is not fallen.Whould you agree?
    • CommentAuthordeena
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2008
     
    Considering Umapati Swami associated intimately with and may have been homosexual before he joined Iskcon, associated with known homosexuals as well as paedophiles (Kirtanananda) for a major part of his time in Iskcon, and as we now know engaged in homosexual acts long after he knew better, do you see any value in him remaing a guru? What is the value of keeping him in that position? What would you suggest as the rectification process for him? I'd like to see the devotees here put their money where there mouth is and send their firstborn sons to the study under Umapati Swami. Your son might get engaged in homosexual acts, but don't worry about that because he'll be learning about Krishna too and anyway Caitanya Mahaprabhu says Maharaja can be a guru.

    Why did Satsvarupa have to 'retire,' while Kesahava Bharati 'Goswami' (who fell with a prostitute), has been be allowed to start giving intiations? (last week at Govardhana) It seems to be an inconsistent standard.
    Thankful People: Hari Bhakta dasa
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      CommentAuthormishra
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2008
     
    When referring to sudra the quote clearly says shudra can BECOME a guru, not that he remains shudra and guru at the same time.
    As you may know shudra goal of life is to become famous, so that might be a hint. Avoid the shudras in the guise of gurus. It might be more than one out there.

    "Last night I was reading a commentary on Sri Isopanisad and the author was saying that we should not have an unhealthy dependence on any one of guru, sadhu, and shastra, nor an unhealthy extreme independence from them. Guru is one of the three, and he is fallible. That's why we have three."

    Sitapati, with all respects, you are doing the greatest disservice by writing this. That affirmation is nowhere directly supported by shastra. You can juggle words on anything and make it seemingly plausible, but NO direct shastra quote, "Guru is fallible" backs up your new age concept of guru.
    Thankful People: abhiram, Hari Bhakta dasa
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      CommentAuthorsitapati
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2008
     
    Mishra, have you read Sri Krishna Bhajanamrita? It's a book that tells you how to deal with that very situation - when the guru is engaged in behaviour that is inappropriate. Now why do you think that the author, Sri Narahari Sarkar wrote the book?

    Sorry to burst the "Guru is God" bubble, but the guru is a human being.
    •  
      CommentAuthorLionheart
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2008 edited
     
    I know this is changing the subject, but since you brought it up, "In Vedic culture women were not initiated by someone other than their husband. The way that ISKCON has things structured right now introduces a socially distorting factor, but that's a whole other conversation." In regards to the above statement...if I would have waited for my husband to initiate me, it would not have happened. He had no religious values, and definitely was against ISKCON. Of course, he never tried to understand it either. We were going in two different directions...which I guess was too hard from both ends to endure. I am happy for the most part now serving Krishna and my spiritual master without boundaries of a husband that could not understand my need for God in my life. To be assured if I ever was to marry again, it would have to be a devotee following along the same lines. Please excuse me for changing the subject. Damodara Priya
    •  
      CommentAuthorsitapati
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2008
     
    Damodara Priya, yes, of course - that's why we've developed this system of women being initiated by men other than their husband. The whole system is mashed up right now.... However, it has it's implications. I'm not advocating that we should just start mindlessly mimicking the ancient Vedic implementation without taking into account the fact that we live in a completely environment. At the same time, we need to work our way back to a sane human civilization, making necessary adjustments to the insane conditions along the way.
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      CommentAuthormishra
    • CommentTimeMar 3rd 2008 edited
     
    Your assumption that Bhajanamrta is meant to be used as a general textbook for the guru tattva is wrong.

    Veda direct us to find and surrender to a guru "as good As God", obviously not a guru-God.

    Sri Narahari deals with the situation where a fool selects a less than appropriate "guru", and you take that as a general direction.

    Of course it is so good that such book exists because many accept bogus personalities less than as good as God gurus all the time in Kaliyuga.

    Those who find themselves under a "guru" and find out that "guru" is not as good as God, in fact it is probably following less than themselves, Narahari gives the instructions to reject in a orderly and vaishnava manner.

    You are right in one thing,: it is a book many would have to use in this lifetime, but from that to elevate that to a principle category, that is demeaning and I would dare to say offensive to the real figure of the guru that is as good as God.

    Cannot be a "good guru" and "another kind of guru", but on the practical side those instructions are meant to the ones committing the mistake precisely for a lack of understanding of what guru is.

    Wanting everybody to upgrade to windows vista cause is the only system you understand, your computer came with, and it is supported by your government, or media, simply shows a lack of understanding of what computer operative system choices are.

    The wise will never install Vista, but there is always people that strangely put with all the problems that come with it.

    If you are somehow attached to Vista, you will even defend the undefendable and worse of all, being somehow an authority on computers, you will make others fall in all the easily avoidable problems.
    Following this example, if you get a decent operative system, you automatically will get rid of the myriad problems coming with Vista.

    Vista is not the o.s. to install and guru less than "as good as God" is not the guru you should surrender.

    Of course, the choice is in the realm of ones subjectivity and cannot be otherwise, but education in this principle is so important and should be crystal clear.

    Sri Narahari is saving you from Vista, telling you the steps to go: "Try to make it work for you and if not, erase it from your hard drive with D:>Format c: and go get Linux or Mac OSX"
  36.  
    Very nicely put Mishra prabhu. Especially the part where you say, " to elevate that to a practical category, that is demeaning and I would dare to say offensive to the real figure of the guru that is as good as god". I dare to agree. It is demeaning and extremely offensive. Therefore, it naturally manifests into Guru-Aparadha, a very dangerous position. Those implicated in this offense go to a place that had to be specially created by Yamaraja. It is known as Kumbhipaka. One who is sent to this place takes with him ten generations backward and forward. That's the intense gravity of this offense. In any event, I appreciate your wisdom regarding this matter. I applaud you Mishra.
    •  
      CommentAuthorsitapati
    • CommentTimeMar 3rd 2008
     
    Mishra prabhu, let me repeat my question - have you actually read that book? Because it doesn't seem like you have.

    Narahari Sarkar prabhu has not written a book that says "what to do when you find out that your guru is actually not a guru, but just a human being" - he has written a book that talks about what to do in the case where your guru, who is a human being, deviates from the path of sad-acar. He does not say: "Well now, it's obvious that you selected someone who isn't a guru." He gives advice on how to deal with the situation in a sensitive and mature manner. He does not say that you should reject such a person as a matter of course, but shows how you can work together to rectify the situation, and what constitutes the "irreconcilable differences" that /would/ lead to rejecting a guru.

    The reason why the guru is said to be "as good as God" is because *they are not God*. They are a human being, and they represent and channel the instructions of the Supreme Lord.

    This is the meaning of guru-tattva. It is one of the two types of saktyavesa-avatara - it is jiva-tattva embued with the sakti of visnu-tattva.
    •  
      CommentAuthorsitapati
    • CommentTimeMar 3rd 2008 edited
     
    From Narahari Sarkar's Sri Krishna Bhajanamrita:

    Verse 59:

    "If the spiritual master commits a wrongful act breaking Vaisnava regulative principles then in that case one should in a solitary place, confront him for his rectification using logic and appropriate conclusions from sadhu, sastra and guru references, **but one is not to give him up**. "

    You can read the complete text here: http://spirituality.forumup.de/post-169-spirituality.html

    This is a very nice book and it describes the fully integrated human experience of bhakti.

    To ccd, re the statement of smrti and sruti:

    "The Narottama dasa, he has sung so many Vedic songs. Narottama dasa's song, although it is written in Bengali, it is considered as sruti, Vedic. "
    " All Vaisnavas, songs are like that, Vedic evidence. "
    - Srila Prabhupada

    So for us, Narahari Sarkar's book Sri Krishna Bhajanamrita is sruti/smrti evidence.
    •  
      CommentAuthormishra
    • CommentTimeMar 3rd 2008
     
    There is a nice story by Jayadvaita Swami about one time he noticed some grammar mistakes in Srila Prabhupada translations and he gathered valour and asked Srila Prabhupada himself. Srila Prabhupada answered him, "Guru is not God"
    Is that sense that we should not mistake guru-God or as good as God. Guru is not God, so he cannot have supreme knowledge and expertise in ALL.
    But to transpolate that to guru being lacking the most basic moral standards and still be considered guru, that is an aberration.
    Your emphasis in guru being a human being springs from your practical experience.
    My experience is that guru is a supra entity because he is connected with the Supersoul and all Vedas sing those qualities.
    I will never accept a guru less than that, you seem to do, its your call, now you probably will need Naraharis book on your shelf.
    Thankful People: GopalaGuru
    •  
      CommentAuthorsitapati
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2008
     
    Mishra prabhu, you speak on the basis of your experience, and that's fine. But this is not about "my experience versus your experience". I'm speaking on the basis of Narahari Sarkar's book.

    My statement that the guru is human springs from the contents of that book, and the instructions that Narahari prabhu gives on dealing with the situation of the guru deviating from sad-acar.

    The guru is not to be rejected in this situation. He is to be confronted in a solitary place and the disciple should preach to him for his rectification. This is the instruction of Narahari Sarkar.

    It's not my statement. It's the statement of the 40th branch of the Caitanya tree.
  41.  
    sitapati:Mishra prabhu, you speak on the basis of your experience, and that's fine. But this is not about "my experience versus your experience". I'm speaking on the basis of Narahari Sarkar's book.
    Now, How about a Statement of Common Sense, and also lets be practical, Mishra Prabhu, i Totally Agree With what you have been saying... Sitapati Prabhu, PAMHO, a guru is a teacher by the very meaning of the word, and Srila Prabhupada was a teacher in every sense of the word for he taught us by example as a teacher should, also he practiced what he preached, as the BG verse Goes "whatever action performed by a great man common men follow in his footsteps and whatever he teaches by exemplary acts the whole world pursues" Imagine if Srila Prabhupada did such acts? would we have an ISKCON today??? If a guru can perform such acts, what to expect then of the disciples who follow in his footsteps, Basically if a guru deviates he should not be guru, Guru is Human, But he is elevated, if he falls down, how then can he still keep the elevated position? Thats all...
    Thankful People: mishra, Hari Bhakta dasa
    •  
      CommentAuthorabhiram
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2008
     
    mishra 1 - sitapati 0
  43.  
    I personally think we should call it a game over - with the simple conclusion, that deviant behavior of a "Guru" is Qualification enough to dequalify Him, Simple... as i said above, its simple common sense. Srila Prabhupada is our divine example, and yes at present there really may be some Gurus that are Uttama Adhikari, as they follow and teach by prabhupada's principles, sadly there are others that do not... so that should answer the initial Question.... Topic Closed
  44.  
    sitapati: The guru is not to be rejected in this situation. He is to be confronted in a solitary place and the disciple should preach to him for his rectification. This is the instruction of Narahari Sarkar.
    just want to add to this... last statement... if the disciple preaches to the guru, doesnt that make him the guru of his guru? which technically still denounces the guruship of a deviant guru...
    •  
      CommentAuthorsitapati
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2008
     
    Gopal Guru prabhu, you argue on the basis of your common sense.

    This is not the Gaudiya Vaisnava way. Common sense is to be accepted when it aligns with the statements of guru, sadhu, and sastra, not independently of them as the basis of the philosophy:

    "Guru sadhu sastra vakya
    tinete koriya aikya"

    - Narottama das Thakura

    I am not arguing what I think, but simply repeating what Narahari Sarkar has said:

    "If the spiritual master commits a wrongful act breaking Vaisnava regulative principles then in that case one should in a solitary place, confront him for his rectification using logic and appropriate conclusions from sadhu, sastra and guru references, **but one is not to give him up**. "

    Again I return to my point - we must understand things on the basis of guru, sadhu, and sastra, not mental speculation.

    Otherwise I get the feeling that a number of people in this discussion are acting as their own guru, and making up the system according to their "common sense" and "experience". Which is all well and good, but it is not our process. You are not arguing with me, you are rejecting Narahari Sarkar's instruction on this matter, and by extension our whole pramana of sadhu and sastra, and becoming your own guru. Congratulations. :-)
    •  
      CommentAuthormishra
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2008
     
    Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu continued, "'Dry arguments are inconclusive. A great personality whose opinion does not differ from others is not considered a great sage. Simply by studying the Vedas, which are variegated, one cannot come to the right path by which religious principles are understood. The solid truth of religious principles is hidden in the heart of an unadulterated, self-realized person. Consequently, as the śāstras confirm, one should accept whatever progressive path the mahājanas advocate.'"

    Advocating a shastra quote out of context in opposition to what you call "mental speculation" and I call common sense, is none other that our dreaded brother fanaticism, unless you are a self realized soul.

    Try to get the whole picture of Srila Prabhupada's teachings on guru tattva and you will see that your conclusion is nowhere to be found, and it is in fact misleading. Srila Prabhupada himself warned us not jump over his teachings to previous acaryas in our line. He could foresee this conversation.

    I´ll ask you a somewhat personal question if you permit...

    What is the understanding of your guru, who he is and where it is situated ?
    Is he fallible?, Can he fall down? If you do thing like this, I think you haven't understood the guru-disciple principle at all, no matter how many quotes from Sri Narahari you produce.

    Is Naraharis book about how to surrender to a fallen guru? How many quotes speak about fallen gurus? But then you forget the millions of quotes extolling the qualities of true guru.

    You are focusing in that problem, probably because you are up to the neck on it and you think everybody else will be.
    Focus on educating about true guru qualities, and if you find no personality with those qualities, then let there be no initiation. Taking initiation of someone that you think can fall down... well, that is just nonsense.
    Better to stay Bhakta John than to buy such a watered-down, filtered, convenient and new age concept of Sri Guru.
    •  
      CommentAuthormishra
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2008
     
    I forgot to say that your conclusions are specially negative in ISKCON's context, with so many problems in the guru camp.

    Is that your way to "help" purifying our by now wretched record? Now more than ever we have the responsibility to educate specially newcomers on the qualities of guru. So that they not fall into the same mistakes again and again, causing terrible lose of faith and spiritual lives.

    But, of course, it could seem more convenient to preach that guru is "a human being"

    In case he goes away with the female secretary and some cash, you can always say "see, I told you, no problem, just take another quick initiation and everything will be alright, son"
    •  
      CommentAuthormishra
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2008
     
    and to top it off :)
    "A neophyte Vaishnava or a Vaishnava situated on the intermediate platform (second-class devotee) can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance." - Nectar of Instruction 5, Purport
    •  
      CommentAuthorsitapati
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2008
     
    OK, I surrender to you Mishra. Now just write it down in a book, and we can all quote: "According to Sri Mishra prabhu, a 21st century Vaisnava saint..."

    :-)

    Your quote is exactly what I was thinking of:

    dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam mahajano yena gatah sa panthah: "The solid truth of religious principles is hidden in the heart of an unadulterated, self-realized person. Consequently, as the sastras confirm, one should accept whatever progressive path the mahajanas advocate."

    CC Madhya-lila 17.186

    However, I was thinking more of taking shelter of Narahari Sarkar than of your experience and Gopal Guru's common sense, although I do respect both of those - just not to the same degree as Narahari Sarkar's.

    Narahari Sarkar's book is not "out of context". It specifically deals with what to do when the guru deviates from sad-acar. It doesn't get more relevant than that.

    The fact that Narahari Sarkar writes about this subject demonstrates that as far as Guru tattva goes, this is part of it. The guru is a human being - he has a human side and is fallible.

    The specific instructions that Narahari Sarkar gives are the Vaisnava etiquette for dealing with this situation. He says that the guru is *not* to be given up out of hand, but the disciple should work with them to help them rectify the situation.

    You have not quoted anything as counter evidence to this, beyond "common sense", "experience", and vague statements about what "the Vedas say".

    I don't buy into the "guru as Superman" or stand-in for "Kalki avatar" riding in on a white horse to take us back to Godhead. There are personalities who are like that, like Srila Prabhupada, but that is not the sum totality of guru-tattva. That's a sentimental idea that is not backed up by the writings of the personalities in our line.

    I am not convinced to give up the shelter of Narahari Sarkar in this regard. He stands as the authority on this matter.

    śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi
    pañcarātra-viddhiṁ vinā
    aikāntikī harer bhaktir
    utpātāyaiva kalpate

    "Devotional service performed without reference to the Vedas, Puranas, and Pancaratras must be considered sentimentalism, and it causes nothing but disturbance to society."
    •  
      CommentAuthormishra
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2008 edited
     
    Probably most of what has been said here if not all, it is truth by itself.
    But when applied to present context, your emphasis is detrimental to the health of our movement and mine is probably lot healthier for the time being.
    A book? I can write down the whole conversation in my blog for posterity, if you graciously so permit. :)

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