There are at least 6 different groups of ritviks that are splinter groups of ISKCON. They all have different explanations and argue inbetween. Which one you want to hear and why? ys

I do not think anyone should preach to ritviks..whatever kind you are:

I do not think they have a philosophy, just an interpretation of it.

I will look Vedabase for the expression 'charity starts at home'.

reason i say ritviks are people to is because, they live among us and are not beyond preaching...

GopalGuru prabhu, If you are sincere in your endeavor regarding the ritviks, go to The Bhaktivendatas web-site. As I have explained in a prior thread, check out the site. It will certainly explain in great detail what the ritviks contentions and conclusions are. The other site is Krishna.org., also well explained.

Srila Prabhupada used the ritvik system because he had to. There were so many people joining and he wanted to concentrate on translating books, so he deputized some of his disciples to initiate on his behalf. However, that system is no longer relevant as there are qualified devotees to accept disciples on their own account, which is a standard practice in all Vaishnava sampradayas.

In a dire emergency, one may resort to meat eating in order to survive, but once the emergency has passed, one should go back to the standard vegetarian diet. In the same way the ritvik system used by Srila Prabhupada while he was still on the planet was retired after his passing.

While some ISKCON gurus clearly were not qualified for their position this does not make the traditional system in our parampara obsolete or irrelevant.

Kula-pavana: Your explanation is right on the money. My take on the whole thing (and I've held to this perspective since '78) is that the so-called eleven appointed gurus were never appointed to be gurus. I believe a big part of their misunderstanding came when Satsvarupa asked Prabhupada, "when you are gone and we initiate a new disciple -- whose disciple would they be?" Well, that's kind of like one of my sons asking me, "dad -- when I have a child whose kid would he/she be? Yours or mine?" For some reason they thought that because they were deputized -- given power of attorney -- to perform the initiation ceremonies on Prabhupada's behalf ---- that they should continue doing that after he left but the difference would be that the new initiates would become their disciples. Over the years the leaders of ISKCON have tried to adjust, expand, modify .... the situation with appointed/elected gurus but since the whole thing began with a lie ---- nothing can work.
On the other hand -- the ritvik people believe that Prabhupada meant for the system to remain in place after his departure.
The other thing is that there was this big concern about the "problem with initiating new people." What problem? There was no problem. By the mercy of Krishna one gets guru and by the mercy of guru one gets Krishna. So what if no new initations would occur for some years or even decades. ISKCON could have nicely gone on with Srila Prabhupada's vani being there as siksha guru for everyone. Then -- perhaps eventually some one or more persons would emerge self-effulgent and fully qualified to take up the position of diksha guru. It would be a natural and spontaneous thing without need of elections or appointments. So upon Prabhupada's departure in November of '77 they decided that two plus two equals five and no matter how many times they go back to the drawing board -- until they rewind back to the original mistake the formula will never work. The sad thing is that Prabhupada's glorious ISKCON movement was and continues to be compromised by misunderstandings and misinterpretations of his instructions. It's amazing that despite all these problems and deviations, Prabhupada's books are so potent that people continue to be enlightened everywhere around the world every day.

Every guru in our disciplic succession can be seen as a "ritvik" of Krsna - accepting and initiating disciples on behalf of Sri Guru. There is no need to concoct a system where Sri Guru is replaced with another guru, however qualified that guru might be. Such a proposition does not solve anything. If one is unable to be a faithful "ritvik" of Sri Guru, he will not be a faithful "ritvik" of Srila Prabhupada either.

PA_/\ò_MHO

All glories to ISKCON's Founder-Acharya, ACBS - Srila Prabhupada!

I wrote a response, as a "rtvik" to answer your question, but my response far exceeded the length limit imposed by this site. I do not have the time to shorten it, and don't want to as it is a topic that cannot be explained in too few words. I posted my response on a website at:
www.rtvik.org/Rtvik-Nutshell.html .

aspiring to become your most worthy and humble servant
ameyatma das (das, anudas) (ACBSP)

[p]I think this is the link he intended:
http://www.rtvik.org/vault/overview.html[/p]

[p]Alternatively, here's another page:
http://www.iskconirm.com/sastric_b.htm with more here:
http://www.iskconirm.com/[/p]

The prominent keywords here would have 2 be "rubber-stamping Gurus" dont wanna say more that i can give props 2 Prubhu above, still, how many rubber stambs are given to the Gurus leaving...(ashrams,ect) one could see their point alibet a negitive one.... :-(
Hare Krsna.

Both ritvik and GBC guru systems are non-traditional. Out of both, ritvik system was actually set in motion by Srila Prabhupada according to time and circumstances, so it has its place in time, while present GBC guru system doesn't have anything to do with Srila Prabhupada's instructions nor anything from the tradition.

Current GBC's system at first resembles traditional, but actually it is not. It is concocted because it promotes exclusivism of their gurus, and they try to position guru-disciple relationship within institutional power structure. GBC gurus themselves claim to be non-traditional gurus, institutional gurus, holding position within eclesiastical structure. This is non-traditional, and is much closer to other ecclesiastical church systems, like catholic church for example. Besides, their invented suspension periods for fallen gurus are just stupid - what are they thinking? Do they really think anybody with even half a brain will buy into their so-called "no-objection" appointment system, and just take it on their word that 100% all their gurus are really qualified to be gurus? Some may be fine, but some are not! Or even better, sometimes some are fine, but sometimes they just don't make it. Now, what kind of system is that? It is a joke!

Although I'm not ritvik, and do not support ritvik ideas, if I was forced to choose between both, I must say I would feel a bit safer with ritvik version. Guess what, they are also devotees, Prabhupada followers, and why would one be doomed for taking shelter from them, just because they are not stamped by GBC. In sastra, when Krsna speaks of importance of taking shelter of more advanced devotee, in never see any mention of GBC or similar.

Where did GBC come from at all, with their ideas? At least ritviks can refer back to Srila Prabhupada, but GBCs just invented it, shamelessly, and they even attempt to force it down our throats, using force and threats.... That's bullying, and one must be a bit stupid to go with this as it being "the only way".

There is too much witch-hunt going on regarding ritviks. It is just strange, and just too much reminds of Gaudiya Matha acaryas fighting for rooms in the temple. Only now they do not fight for rooms, but for temples. It is pathetic.

Anyway, both system are good attempts to exercise our free will, and act independently of Srila Prabhupada. Eventually natural movement will be towards what Srila Prabhupada said. Until then, we can have some fun, chew on it, and try to figure out which side of stool is better - the wet one or the dry one.

...I somewhat disagree with Mishra,the GBC make gurus because they think they have to,those devotees like to become gurus because now they will be set up for life,no more worries about how they will get money for travel,who will do their meanial choirs like laundry and stuff,always have plenty of firstclass prasadam and will always have a captive audience to hear them speak.
...the " ritviks" are upset because this is a totaly bogus and unauthorzed by scripture activity,no where does Prabhupada ever says the GBC has authority to rubber-stamp neophyte devotees as gurus.
...Ritvik method of initiation is practicial commom sense,it's just no fun for neophyte Prabhupada disciples who want all the attention and a free ride on Prabhupadas back.

I guess I put that last comment in the wrong place. It follows this discussion:
http://www.pariprashnena.com/discussion/598/1/if-one-accepts-srila-prabhupad-as-his-guru-is-there-a-need-of-intiationritvik/

Kula-pavana,

1.You say that in Srila Prabhupaa's books he never mentions the rtvik system, but what need is there for the "let alone"? He mentioned it neither in regard to before or after his mahasamadhi. Neither had been done before, but it is a plain fact that he created an "officiating acarya" system, which he agreed can also be called "rtvik acarya." In fact, there is it is not two things, but one thing. It is nonsense to admit that rtvik acarya system had never been done before, and say that therefore it can't continue post-samadhi. By the standard of a new thing being invalid, it was invalid when Srila Prabhupada created it.

It seems to me that he decided on this system sometime between May 28 and July 9, 1977, and at that time he was managing ISKCON via letters. I'm simply looking for two things to justify the current system. A: Clear instruction to discontinue the rtvik system upon the occasion of his mahasamadhi; and B: Clear authorization of specific initiating gurus. To my thinking, statements like "I want all my disciples to become guru," is not authorization for anyone to conduct initiations, any more than "I want all my sons to become doctors," is permission to go out and practice medicine. One must become qualified and then authorized.

That does not mean there can never be another guru. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura did not authorize any new acaryas in the Gaudiya Matha, but on BSST's order to preach, Srila Prabhupada left the Gaudiya Matha and started ISKCON, in which he was the self-effulgent acarya. It was quite successful, too, until the GBC cancelled Srila Prabhupada's orders concerning rtvik initiations and concocted their own methods.

Also, I do not feel comfortable with judging one acarya's methods of accepting initiation according to the practices of past acaryas. Kali yuga has been advancing, and the world has changed in many ways throughout history. An empowered acarya, being above material contamination, has freedom to manage things as he sees fit. Considering that he created a fully-automated rtvik system for initiaitons, when there is no record of anyone ever using the term "officiating acarya" before May 28, 1977, I don't see why he would have no right to continue this system after his mahasamadhi. He created it, although it was not sastric in the ordinary understanding, and he never said to stop it. I don't think this means it is meant to go on forever, to deny the next self-effulgent acarya the right to initiate disciples; but neither did he ever say it was to be stopped when he left his body; nor have I seen any convincing evidence that he actually authorized any of his disciples to give initiation. Of course, the reason this is an issue is that his disciples assuming the role of diksa guru has proven a fiasco.

(continued...)

1. Prabhupada had no choice but to delegate initiations to his representatives. Movement was growing too fast and SP had so many things to do. Like I said earlier, Vedas allow non-standard solutions in times of emergency, even up to the point of eating cows when faced with starvation. That emergency situation is no loger there, so this ritvik system has no justification.

2. While some Iskcon gurus are clearly bogus, others are not. Let the prospective disciples decide. Such is life.

3. We need all kinds of gurus, both siksa and diksa. Gaudiya Vaishnavism elevated gurus to the level of superheroes. That has some advantages, but also carries serious risks. I'm not sure that you can come up with a system which eliminates all the risk. Ultimately Sri Guru watches over all sincere seekers of Absolute truth. I know many devotees (myself included) who greatly benefited from the help received through not-so-perfect gurus. We are in good hands when we are sincere.

Pandu Prabhu, above you are not talking of vaisnavism. Vaisnavism is culture of devotion to Krsna. What you are talking about is something completely different, perverted reflection of some kind, some institutional conditioning.....

You are struggling with some kind of institutionalized cheating religion. Srila Prabhupada defines cheating as attempt of conditioned soul to give impression of himself as being more advanced than he actually is. We are all sorry that Srila Prabhupada's movement is infected with cheaters, true. But if you are a bit sincere and introspective, you may find that we ourselves may be cheaters just fine. I know I have this in me, liking to pose as better than I really am - it is so inviting.... It is material disease, based on conditioned nature, and it will not go away without higher taste. Only liberated souls are free from this, and those are rare, very rare. ISKCON will never be cheating-free, due to its ghostyanandi mission of inviting everybody to join. It is not about how to clean it, it is about how to live with it.

So, cheaters and cheated, that's not vaisnavism. What cheaters do, is certainly disturbing, especially if we are on reciving end. But ISKCON is made of guys like you and me, and frankly, no wonder there are problems. :) Instead of being disturbed by cheaters, we should learn to recognize them, and avoid as necessary. This will also help us deal with our own cheating propensity - if nothing else, those attacked by us for their cheating, will get back on our case, and force us to see our own garbage, and that's wanted.

Are you sure, that if you just take diksa with ritviks, then you will be freed of cheating, and never again see any cheating arround you? I doubt ritviks can provide that for you. Actually, I doubt anybody can. Our expectations regarding diksa gurus are all screwed up. That's due to our being raised in sectarian environment of artificial authorization of so-called divine (until suspension). We were brainwashed with idea, that our gurus are perfect divine. We spent years convincing ourselves into that. Now we want to see some proof of their divinity, and surely they have not much to show. So, we need not be misled that changing a camp will solve the problem.

Srila Prabhupada gave all information necessary for sincere soul to recognize cheaters, and avoid them. That information is freely available to us all. Nobody is forced to take shelter of cheaters. And we don't need temples, really, and especially not to go there and be cheated. But if one wants to be cheated by some persons posing as qualified gurus, or by others dictating what must go on in local temple, or by all different ideas being imposed upon him, the he can be cheated freely. There is plenty of choice how to be cheated. If you want to avoid cheaters, you can do so. But if you enjoy being cheated a bit, then why complain about it. It is your life, and your choice.

Oddly enough, just about a minute after I sent that last comment, I received a call on my cell phone from Bhaktimarga Swami.

I just want to thank the devotees here for helping me work through my issues. I don't want to offend anyone; I just want to serve Krishna, but I don't always know how to best do that.

Pandu das:

1. And what if he didn't feel any of his disciples were qualified to become diksa guru?
2. What if quesitonable gurus and their disciples dictate what happens at one's local temple?
3. It seemed to me that Srila Prabhupada came up with a system that eliminated the risk as much as possible, but his disciples cancelled it ASAP. If I got to pick between the system designed by Srila Prabhupada, and the one designed by the GBC, I'd be a lot more inclined to trust what Srila Prabhupada had implemented.

Pandu-ji,

1. Srila Prabhupada had a very soft heart for his disciples, even those who cheated and betrayed him repeatedly, like Kirtanananda. He still kept him in power and prestige, and put his name on the 'appointment list'. If it was me - a cold hearted, unforgiving kshatriya - that guy would have been booted in 1970 at the latest. He gave sannyasa to people who in terms of their guna and karma were not even remotely qualified to be a decent grihastha - 90% of them fell down. That was the way he was: always optimistic, always hoping for the great things, always trusting the purificatory power of the holy name. Why would he not feel his disciples were qualified to ever be diksa gurus? That just make no sense at all!

2. If you run into a personality cult camp, you just have to stand your ground. Do not hesitate to speak out and question things your heart sees as crooked. The Lord is your shepard. These crooks and cultists can function only if devotees in general let them. In that way so called humility becomes cowardice.

3. Based on my research, SP did not have a fixed 'designed' system he followed in every case. Because of various circumstances and emergencies he adopted different solutions at different times. If you are talking about shastric exams to become a guru as opposed to the current GBC system - it is actually what Prabhupada told them to do: add names to the list of initiating gurus as they (GBC) see fit - it is part of the 'appointment tape'. Same with DOM. Srila Prabhupada did not always follow the directives of that document - we had a discussion about it on another thread here.

> Why would he not feel his disciples were qualified to ever be diksa gurus? That just make no sense at all!

Definitely. If we accept that SP was successful in so many ways, it makes no sense to assume he failed at making even one disciple qualified to be a guru. Indeed, an outright absurdity, imho.


Afaik, a sannyasa dharma is to travel (traditionally by walking) and preach. Didn't hear about any change in that respect. Or?

Of course; that's why the ISKCON has practically taken over the world. Temples are packed and more are opening every day, the distribution of Srila Prabhupada's books is increasing exponentially, slaughterhouses are all closed, and everywhere cows are treated as everyone's mothers. Pardon my sarcasm.

I've just been looking for a clear statement from Srila Prabhupada announcing that one or more of his disciples has become qualified to be diksa guru and is therefore authorized to give initiation upon his mahasamadhi, but there doesn't seem to be any such thing; nor is there any statement giving a sunset date or any statement that his system of automatic rtvik initiations was to be stopped with his mahasamadhi.

Here is one quote I found interesting. It is taken from a book called, _Our Srila Prabhupada, a Friend to All: Early Contemporaries Remember Him_. Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharaj is describing a conversation he had with Srila Prabhupada:

"Once I said to him, 'Maharaja, you should survive for ten more years.'"

"He answered, 'How can I survive? You see my pulse.'"

"I saw that his pulse was not moving. I said, 'Unless you stay, these Western disciples won't unite.' They are strong-headed and they will fight. You must put them in line with our tradition.' Previously I said, 'Maharaja, you have established some gurus, but Guru is one.'"

"He said, 'I have not selected. Only rtviks to act in my place now.'

"I said, 'After your demise they will be gurus. Unless you bless a guru to sit on the vyasaasana, they must go down.'"

"He said, 'What to do? Everything is Krishna's will.'"

"Then after some time in Vrindavana he passed away."



I don't want to disturb or offend anyone. I just want to know what Srila Prabhupada wanted, so that I can serve him properly. That is why I am challenging a little, to find out why devotees accept what they do. I don't care if gurus give initiation if they think they have Srila Prabhupada's permission, but I do not believe the GBC has the right to prevent Srila Prabhupada from continuing to give initiation via the automatic rtvik method he created. I don't see why both systems cannot go on side by side, together, in the same society. It is absolutely pathetic and asinine that devotees treat each other as enemies. Maya is our enemy, and we're in the thick of it; and even Maya is Krishna's pure devotee. Serious offenses are committed all around, and thus the world continues to be deprived of Krishna consciousness because we cannot give what we do not have. Kali yuga is making asses of us. If we cannot make ourselves humble enough to get along with each other, then we should be completely ashamed of ourselves. It's not Srila Prabhupada's job to force anyone to become a pure devotee, nor can we blame him for our failure to advance sufficiently. As far as I'm concerned, the fighting between camps is trampling on Srila Prabhupada's good name and spoiling the spread of Krishna consciousness. If we cannot get along, it is not Srila Prabhupada's fault; it's ours. We cannot blame our failures on him, and to say that he must have made qualified disciples does just that. If I'm not a pure devotee, is it my guru's fault? No! He did not teach us to be enemies. Some devotees want continued automatic rtvik initiations by Srila Prabhupada, and some want gurus as is done now. Both have reasonable arguments supporting their views, and each can be given the benefit of the doubt. They are not mutually exclusive. I see no reason why both groups cannot be satisfied and cooperative, if the GBC would simply allow it. The first offense against the holy name of the Lord does not consider what 'camp' the chanter of Hare Krishna is in when the aspiring devotee blasphemes him. It is time for devotees all around to embrace humility and each other, and to appreciate each other's devotion to Srila Prabhupada and to Lord Caitanya's pleasure. Until we can do that, we'll never be Vaishnavas.

Hare Krishna.

Yes. Srila Prabhupada repeatedly made it clear, that ALL his disciples (including female disciples) will initiate in the future. Unfortunately, GBC doesn't like to hear that everyone, whoever is initiated, is competent to initiate disciples. Some ISKCON gurus already passed on (Gour Govinda Swami, Bhakti Tirtha Swami, Sridhar Swami, Tamal Krsna Goswami, Suhotra Swami...), and their practising disciples could initiate too, if they liked. Tradition has nothing against it. What to speak of Srila Prabhupada's disciples.

Ritviks have all the right to initiate disciples, just like anybody else who is initiated in vaisnava sampradaya, and is practising what acaryas revealed. Their only problem is that they try to make you Srila Prabhupada's DIKSA disciple. They are too fixated on diksa. Instead, they should be initiating as Srila Prabhupada instructed and empowered them, making their own diksa disciples, and then instruct and direct their diksa disciples towards Srila Prabhupada siksa. Everybody should be doing that, ritvik camp and GBC camp. Because, we are all Srila Prabhupada's siksa disciples anyway.

...Pandu has made some good points.The reason why the two groups cannot work side by side is because that would be like the GBC admiting they are wrong,something you will never see,besides that the GBC is 100 % disfunctional anyways,

...within Iskcon we haven't heard any thing from " ritviks " period,all such disccusions are banned by the GBC,even though Prabhupada uses the term ritvik many times in His books.I think the critism is based world-wide.please tell us which gurus are bonified and why.I am not sure how the number of stamps in my passport have anything to with anything,most of us rely on the internet and reports from devotess such as your self.

Within iskcon we hear a lot about ritviks, mainly 3 out of 6 different groups. Some groups are completely out of shape without even following ekadasis etc. some are very much as iskcon, when the temple president or whoever is effectively a charismatic leader (hey he is the guru just does not use the name) and there most of the things are almost fine, bar initiation being invalid. the weirdest sect of ritiviks is one that accepts one 'guru' as the 'ritvik acharya'. there is way too much attention is given to ritvikvada these days, considering the number of splits among them and the low standard in the most of temples that are controlled by them, specifically in usa.

CCD,
I just think that devotees who accept Srila Prabhupada's teachings should be considered members of ISKCON so that we can work together to advance our common goal. What's so funny about that? Also that no aspiring devotees of Krishna should be considered enemies, even if we disagree about how some instructions should be understood. Do you think Krishna is pleased to see His devotees fighting amongst themselves?

I'm trying to find a way for peaceful relations between devotees, but your accusing me of "having a problem with what Srila Prabhupada said" is not only false, but extremely offensive. I don't see how we can have a discussion if it's going to turn like that.

Hare Krishna.