Philosophy: [Closed] If one accepts Srila Prabhupad as his guru, is there a need of intiation(ritvik)

Concluding words from CC; "One must take advantage of the Vani, not the Vaphu". Also: " He reasons ill who tells that Vaisnava's die, when thou art living still in sound! The Vaisnava dies to live, and living try to spread the Holy Name around!" Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Pandu das: In any case I want to find out if there is any clear proof of Srila Prabhupada having authorized the termination of the rtvik system he created, as well as the authorization of the method that is being utilized today. It's just not plausible to say that he left it up to the GBC to handle initiations as they like. If Srila Prabhupada didn't authorize any successor gurus, then in my mind it brings into question the bona fides of the initiations. I almost wonder if I should get a rtvik initiation just to have my bases covered, considering that a whichever is not bona fide is simply meaningless, though it would have to be done in secret because the GBC is so adamantly against it. However, I'm not very good at concealing my thoughts, which I guess may be obvious. It would be quite astonishing if we've been depositing our mail in mailboxes that have not been authorized by the government, so to speak, but on the other hand it could explain why ISKCON went from an exploding spiritual movement to a virtually insignificant religious cult.

1. Termination of the ritvik system SP created during his presence: Regardless of what you think about the 'appointment tapes' - in his books SP never mentions even the ritvik system he created, let alone any revolutionary system he supposedly planned to use after his passing. One can therefore assume that he had no intention of changing the system used in all Vaishnava sampradayas for thousands of years. Quite frankly such a change could possibly turn our line into an apasampradaya. An acharya simply can't nominate himself to be the diksa guru for all future generations in his line. 2. The current GBC approval of gurus in ISKCON: Srila Prabhupada envisioned his disciples qualifying to be gurus by passing advanced shastric examinations even in SP's presence. He expected it to happen in just a few short years. For one reason or another he never implemented that system. Yet he set a precedent for accepting someone as guru based on a somewhat arbitrary criteria. Does book knowledge alone qualify anyone to be a guru? I doubt that very much. The current GBC system is very similar in the sense of setting arbitrary criteria for the guru candidates. I don't think we can reject their system because it closely resembles in essence the system SP envisioned earlier. 3. Placing your mail in an authorized mailbox: Ultimately the authorization comes from Krsna. If you have verified that to the best of your knowledge your guru properly represents the authorized sampradaya of your choice - the rest is up to Krsna. Have faith in Him and you will be fine regardles of the quality of your guru. That is my very direct personal experience.

CCD, My reason is that because the diksa guru is worshipped as Krishna's pure representative, and his instructions and orders are taken as equal to Krishna's own words. Therefore if the diksa guru is materially contaminated, his ego gets puffed up and his instructions are mixed with material motivations. As a consequence, his disciples get mislead.

Three years ago I questioned BTS' moral integrity regarding his lavish glorification of an unrepentant child molester whom he'd invited to Gita-nagari, contrary to the fellow's official rectification plan (which had never been taken seriously), just after we'd auctioned off our farm equipment to raise $35,000 to pay to the child abuse settlement. Instead of getting a plausible, spiritually uplifting response, I was threatened, condemned, and ostracized for my "guru aparadha." I had simply asked a question, hoping for a good answer, all in the interst of protecting Gita-nagari's children and Srila Prabhupada's good name..

The only reason I'm emphasizing the qualifications of the diksa guru is because they are treated as Krishna's voice in our society, although their conduct frequently seems less than Divine to me. If everyone emphasized Srila Prabhupada's siksa, that would be great. Instead there is a huge emphasis on the diksa guru's instructions and orders, which is precisely the cause of the problems I've experienced. I have seen and heard of an astonishing amount of heinous activity based on worshipping materially contaminated gurus, a lot more than just the murder of Sulocana.

I agree that according to the pure philosophy siksa is much more important; but what do you think would happen if would go around insisting that I was Srila Prabhupada's disciple? I'm not sure I would still be allowed to give class, or even visit the temple, what to speak of sitting at the "Srila Prabhupada's Disciples Table" at festivals.

Pandu Prabhu,
You already have diksa guru. Why complicate your life by risking the aparadha of rejecting guru that's just fine, and accepting another? Diksa here or there will change nothing. Many took diksa from Srila Prabhupada.... It is not like, BANG, diksa, now I'm good. Even if you got diksa from occasionally weak and confused vaisnava, if he is turned towards Krsna in his desire, you are just fine. It is pure siksa, that we need, and that we have sooooo much nowadays. Never was there so much quality siksa available so widely, so easily. Even if all GBC gurus bloop, and all ritviks bloop, and all gaudiya math and others bloop.... whatever, we fire up our mp3 player with thousands od Srila Prabhupada's lectures, and we are exactly where we need to be.

Present gurus (GBCs, ritviks, gaudiya math...) are bonafide enough for where we are atm, don't worry. As long as they direct us towards sampradaya, they are doing their job. Rejection can be done, but only after carefull consideration, if guru becomes mayavadi or inimical towards devotees (not towards individuals, but in principle). But none of above mentioned are mayavadis or inimical towards pure devotional service. Feelings of enmity are created artificially by weak individuals like RSD and similar brand. We need not fall for that maya tricks. Bypass their conditioned opinions, and dive into the nectar flowing from Srila Prabhupada's lips. Don't worry too much, you will be just fine at Srila Prabhupada's feet, Krsna will take care.

There is plenty of fanaticism in ISKCON regarding gurus. Even if some individuals take words of certain guru to be equal to Krsna's, you need not follow their ways. Maybe they need to see this certain person as Divine, maybe that's their next step towards Krsna. If you already see that something may be wrong with divinity of that guru, why bother with that? ISKCON societly treats gurus as divine, because societies need heroes. Somebody must be a role model, and if there is no qualified person for that, someone lesser is installed on throne, and worshiped - and simultaneously in background rules are set for him to suspend him, when he fails in his role as divine. It is nothing new, all societies, not only religious, follow such system.

You can be Prabhupada's disciple, but not diksa disciple. So you cannot sit at SP Diksa table, that's temporary arrangement for closed circle only. But you can work hard to come up to SP standard for his disciples. And Krsna will take care of you for your trying to follow Srila Prabhupada. It is internal thing. Don't get too conditioned by external designations of society, friendship and love. Krsna is not present only where GBC approved gurus are - at least sastra says that Krsna is where His Name is sung in association of devotees, and there is no mention of GBC in that sloka. Some people have misconceptions, that you need not accept as your own. Let them work on their own misconceptions, and let them learn what they need to learn. We can cooperate just fine, even if one thinks that his diksa guru is divine or whatever. With some respect for each other, and meditating on unity in diversity, we can cooperate just fine to spread the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Pandu Prabhu, I didn't think Srila Prabhupada's quote sent by Priyavrata was aiming at you in any way. I gave it thumbs-up considering it to be aimed at the certain guru system that so many have problem with.

And regarding your observation: "I like my guru and admire him as a devotee, but I can't seem to cultivate feelings for him anything like what I have for Srila Prabhupada." :) This is exactly how I feel about my guru, but I think this is perfectly proper. Why do you think anything is wrong with your described emotions??? Why are you so screwed up, that you think your institutional guru should be the topmost in your life, from now on, forever...whatever. C'mon, no need to punish yourself. You are doing just fine.

By your having stronger feelings towards SP, your guru should not be disturbed. He should be happy, and I bet he is. If he is a possessive idiot, and demands your full love or whatever, then something may be screwed up in his head. But I doubt that is really the case, at least not to much. Pandu, with all due respect, you are just a bit screwed up. :) And I can relate to that, because I'm too, I guess.

We were not trained properly in our devotion to guru, and no wonder, we came up in association of neophytes. None to blame really, but our own baby-ness (is that a word at all???). We got exactly what we needed. Time will fix it all. Be happy for your guru connecting you to Srila Prabhupada, and go on fixing yourself fully on Srila Prabhupada siksa. Thus you will glorify also your present diksa guru.

Forget about moving to ritvik camp, it will solve nothing for you. Ritviks can be good for newcomers, those seeking initiation and connection to Srila Prabhupada, as alternative to GBC confusion. But you already have your connection, so why bother with all the mess?

Initiation in prabhupadas times was quite natural and is not something special, if you managed to stay in the temple for a few months you will get it. Prabhupada never made a big thing out of it. Why do we make such a big deal out of initiating gurus? We should make big deal out of siksa gurus! They are people who save us, and Prabhupada is our siksa guru for sure; making him some kind of forever diksa guru is a stupid idea, based on the strange concept that diksa guru is more important.

Pandu das: If you need someone to talk to regarding your spiritual life. I'm a good listener and would be more than happy to hear what you have to say about the many issues that don't seem to sit well with you. However, I would rather do so in a more private setting as opposed to this forum. If you're inclined to do so, you can obtain my personal e-mail address from admin. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.Your servant, Priyavrata das

Dear Priyavrata Prabhu,
Hare Krishna. You must be very brave. 8^) Yes, I appreciate your offer. Really the only problems are my addiction to sense gratification, my aversion to devotional service, and my persistent tendency to commit offenses. However, on account of these three faults of mine, I find practically unlimited faults everywhere. If somehow I could find he heart of these faults of mine and rectify it, I am hopeful that the world could be relieved of the great burden of my sinful nature.

Please send me a note at:
Pandu.bms at Gmail.com
so we can discuss in a way that I will not be a disturbance to everyone. I am also open to communicating more privately with other devotees as well. Thank you. Hare Krishna.

Sincerely, your servant,
Pandu das

Yuga_avatar_prabhu,

1. TKG's signature is as the secretary. It's Srila Prabhupada's signature that counts.

2. "That one must accept initiation from a present guru." I'm sorry you do not feel Srila Prabhupada's presence. Every time I see him sitting on his asana at the Hare Krishna temples, his expression is different. Sometimes he smiles with approval, sometimes he frowns, and I often hear him in my heart. Do you think he is just a statue for decoration?

3. "...many ''ritviks'' preach that the only way to krishna is through srila Prabhupada....." If someone else has another way, fine. My way is through Srila Prabhupada.

4. "Very wisely one devotee should take shelter of another who is more advanced especially when ones faith in ones guru is under attack" The only attack on my faith was was my discovery that so many heinous crimes have been committed in ISKCON and the thought that Srila Prabhupada put these guys in power.. The biggest boost to my faith lately was discovering the evidence indicating that Srila Prabhupada appointed rtviks instead of gurus and intended that system to continue.

5. "Luckily we are in a siksa line so we can all take shelter of any number of superior devotees ,and most importantly try and serve them personally to allow the transcendental nourishment of ones spiritual life to mature." Here ( http://www.howardjresnick.com/ ) is an example what you apparently consider a superior devotee from whom we should take siksa, with his teaching that Srila Prabhupada was materially conditioned as discussed at http://www.pariprashnena.com/discussion/770/ .

Yes it's a siksa line, but the position of diksa guru is a bully pulpit for giving siksa, so unqualified diksa gurus are the biggest threat to our siksa line.

Sri Caitanya Govind,

No the farm equipment was sold because it had gone unused for so long. The money went to pay Gita-nagari's part of the child abuse lawsuit. I don't know too many details, but several kids got molested in Gita-nagari's school, I think sometime during in the 80's.

Now most of the devotees I know of who are interested in farming don't trust the temple management enough to do much service there. One friend of mine was physically driven out by a former temple president and spit upon last time he visited Sri Sri Radha-Damodara. There are many devotees living in the area whom I've never even met because they've given up on the temple. Others still attend but have quit investing their time and energy. The ones I know of have their own projects, following Srila Prabhupada's instructions independently according to their capabilities and individual natures. We have a new temple president since last year, so none of this is his fault, but the devotees interested in farming have mostly dispersed already and I don't think they're planning to come back any time soon. I'm still being asked to serve there, and am doing what I can, but I don't know if or when the day will come when I'll get banned for not having faith in the gbc-approved gurus.

As for the rest of your comment, apparently suggesting that by assuming the role of initiating guru one becomes actually qualified, it just makes my head spin. Before I came to ISKCON I would have assumed those guys were qualified, but not now, no way.

Also my new freind,alchemical das.....is bhakti caru swami a ''ritvik'' archarya or proponent as your article seems to infer?I am afraid not so please to do not use your sad innuendo to slur his glorious service record to iskcon and the vaishnava tradition.

Sri Caitanya Govind,

Hare Krishna. I have no intention of going anywhere. I'm not a drifter. I own a home, have a career, maintain a big family and several farm animals, etc. , which would make a move extremely impractical. I'm trying to work with the community, but if it stops seeming worthwhile then I have other devotee association, especially my wife and kids. I like going to the temple, but I don't depend upon it either spiritually or materially. Hare Krishna.

"One who is sincere and pure gets an opportunity to consult with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His Paramatma feature sitting within everyone's heart. The Paramatma is always the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within, and He comes before one externally as the instructor and initiator spiritual master. The Lord can reside within the heart, and He can also come out before a person and give him instructions. Thus the spiritual master is not different from the Supersoul sitting within the heart. An uncontaminated soul or living entity can get a chance to meet the Paramatma face to face. Just as one gets a chance to consult with the Paramatma within his heart, one also gets a chance to see Him actually situated before him. Then one can take instructions from the Supersoul directly. This is the duty of the pure devotee: to see the bona fide spiritual master and consult with the Supersoul within the heart."

Srimad-Bhagavatam 4:28:52 Purport

"Krsna appears in two ways. He appears as antaryami, the Supersoul within himself, within oneself, and He appears as the spiritual master, externally. Caitya-guru and diksa-guru. Caitya-guru... As caitya-guru, as the supreme spiritual master, He is in everyone's heart. And His representative... In order to help externally the sincere person, He sends the spiritual master. Therefore the spiritual master from outside and the caitya-guru from inside, they are helping. The Supreme Personality is helping a devotee, a real, serious devotee two ways: from within, from without. The Caitanya-caritamrta therefore says that krsnera prakasa, manifestation of Krsna, a spiritual master. And Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says, yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado yasya aprasadad na gatih kuto 'pi: "If I can satisy my spiritual master, then I understand that Krsna is satisfied. And if I cannot satisfy my spiritual master, then I have no other way to approach Krsna." These songs we sing every day. So my Guru Maharaja used to say that "Instead of seeing Krsna, you serve so faithfully that Krsna will see you." That should be the process. Krsna is omnipresent. He can see you, He can understand you, what are doing. So we have to execute devotional service in such a faithful way that Krsna will see us. Then you will be successful. "Don't try to see Krsna. Try to become seen by Krsna." That was my Guru Maharaja's instruction."

Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam, 02-10-71, Gorakhpur

So because you are unable to please your guru,you intend to jump to your diksa guru's position,take his superior position to attempt to be like the Christians....the only way to god is through jesus.The only way to KRISHNA is through bhaktivedanta swami.Sampradaya line is based on how you'' feel'',i don't feel right so let me feel my way back home to godhead.A new apa-sampradaya is born.....iskconite sahajaism following the first ''new vrindavana chapter''.

Ritvik Issue eyewitness account by gauridas pandita das:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=0F1B7A3703E4F957

Pandu, while asking "Where is the statement from Srila Prabhupada saying that the GBC can authorize diksa gurus?", one could ask you about when Srila Prabhupada himself was authorized to start initiating? I cannot recall reading anywhere, that Srila Prabhupada was directly instructed by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati to start initiating, or to leave Gaudiya-matha and start his own independent mission and not cooperate with Gaudiya math in setting the GBC system. As far as I know, spoken instruction was directed specifically towards preaching in the English speaking countries.

Similar could be asked regarding authorisation of any guru in vaisnava sampradaya throughout entire history. Did they all have written authorisations or something? How do you expect this to work in practice?

It is clear that Srila Prabhupada is authorized to do all that he did. But still, there is no tape recording, or written authorisation from Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. So it may be improper to expect such authorization for ISKCON gurus, especially after Srila Prabhupada authorized all his qualified disciples to initiate in the future.
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I want that all of my spiritual sons and daughters will inherit this title of Bhaktivedanta, so that the family transcendental diploma will continue through the generations. Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Hamsaduta -- Los Angeles 3 January, 1969 [Based on the 1st paragraph, we believe that the original letter was incorrectly dated. Our estimate is that this is the correct date. -- Bhaktivedanta Archives]
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Idea, that only Srila Prabhupada can be guru in ISKCON, is inconsistent with his teachings. Of course, unqualified gurus cause havoc, and in shortage of qualified gurus, officiating acaryas are best solution. But eventually what is required is qualification, both from gurus and disciples. If knowledgeable disciple tests a guru and finds required qualification, then why there shouldn't be a natural guru/disciple relationship, including the formality of initiation ceremony?

Pandu Prabhu,

The quotes I provided yesterday were from Srila Prabhupada, not myself or anyone else.

Yes, I'm quite aware of all the quotes you posted. I'm trying to point out, that there is more to the entire picture. My point is that Srila Prabhupada said not only that, but also provided other perspectives. We can personally limit ourselves on just part of Srila Prabhupada's instructions, and we will be just fine. But we cannot enforce such partial understanding on others. Others may wish to approach matter from other perspectives. Ritvik system, as practiced today in ISKCON, is one perspective. GBC's system is another perspective. More and more I get the feeling, that there is more to the guru issue than we are able to comprehend at the moment. :D

There is widespread idea in ISKCON, especially among those who are a bit dazzled by mundane academics, that Srila Prabhupada invented ISKCON as he went, and that his earlier instructions were more or less "tapping in the dark". They say, that later instructions nullify (overpower) the previous one. They try to present idea, that Srila Prabhupada in beginning really didn't know what he was doing, but later on he learned the real thing through trial/error. I don't find peace in such ideas, so I avoid them.

I'm not saying that you, Pandu, are offensive to Srila Prabhupada in such way. I just feel that today's ritviks are quite selective in interpretation of Srila Prabhupada's teachings. What they say is all truth, no doubt. But it is not entire truth, just a part of it. A great plus for today's ritviks is, that at least they try to base their ideas directly on Srila Prabhupada's words. GBC's on the other hand, are distastefully innovative and arrogant in their presentations.

You say:

Srila Prabhupada authorized up to siksa guru but did not authorize diksa gurus,...

This is assumption. There is no direct statement from Srila Prabhupada confirming this idea. And there are statements contrary to this idea. This assumption is sprouting out of selective interpretation.

It is clear that Srila Prabhupada implemented ritvik system, before and after his departure. It is a valid system, which is to significant degree followed also by GBC voted (institutional) gurus.

In the matter of his own authorization, Srila Prabhupada said in an April 28, 1974, letter to Rupanuga, in reference to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada...

You will have hard time providing written authorization from BSST. So, my point remains - why are you expecting from ISKCON gurus to have something, that was never before required, namely written authorization? I'm just saying, that this argument regarding written authorization is weak.

And regarding "Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program.", you say:

Do you think that when Srila Prabhupada wrote that letter, he was thinking of leaving the planet by that time?

No, I don't say 1975 was some kind of deadline. What I'm saying is, that there is more to understanding of guru-tattva than "ritviks", or "GBCs", are able to present to us through their understandings and actions. Srila Prabhupada offered understanding, and we approach this understanding from our limited perspectives. I know things may look as contradictions, but that is exactly my point. There is no real contradictions, it just looks contradictory, because we choose to limit ourselves on certain comfortable part of teachings.

Some things cannot be pushed. When our glass is full, no matter how much more we try to squeeze into it, it will always hold the same amount of water. Perception of contradictions is a good sign, that we reached our limits. "Ritviks" and "GBCs" appear to contradict each other, but actually they are both to large degree just part of one bigger thing. With time material impurities in both camps will be removed, and differences will thus become reduced.

We have a long time to go, 9500 years is a lot of time, comparing to 2000 yrs of Christianity. Vaisnavism will get in line with visions of acaryas, but not just yet. :)

"Ritvik system", as is propagated today, is to some degree different from officiating acarya system implemented by Srila Prabhupada. Same stands for GBC's "institutional guru system", which is also to some degree different from officiating acarya system implemented by Srila Prabhupada. But besides the officiating acarya system (valid in absence of qualified gurus and disciples), Srila Prabhupada implemented also traditional guru system, where qualified self-effulgent guru and qualified disciple meet, and transfer of transcendental knowledge takes place.

...

Also what is indeed signifigant is that guru's unique mercy is intended for those who are progressive in their desire to surrender. The special mercy of guru and gauranga will be allowed to work in the heart of that devotee who is actually sincere.Who is extremely motivated to put into practise this incredible gift of attempting to see krishna's mercy in his every moment.This is not so cheap ,hence not all devotees have that sublime ability to receive krishna's mercy through his agent...his siksa and diksa guru,his neophyte devotee or even his pure representative.We are not blessed by such sadhu sanga unless krishna enables us to receive his grace.Hence since this is a sankirtan movement,we will imbibe the most signifigant reciprocation through those great souls who are blissfully engaged in sri Chaitanya's attempt to engage the non-devotees in hearing and chanting Krishna's glories.
We are indeed fortunate because iskcon has hundreds of such empowered persons, some are further empowered by being able to engage the demons in giving their hard earned incomes for his iskcon movement.Thus further empowering this worldwide dynamic preaching movement.Hence i was indeed blessed by that great soul and foremost servant of srila Prabhupada ,tamala krishna goswami by whose mercy the simple everyday devotional blessing astound me even today,a good twenty to thirty odd years later.What i take for granted Pandu das ,you unfortunately have not received in my humble opinion.Which leads me to suggest new devotees should search to see which line was empowered by srila Prabhupada,obviously this is indeed difficult however i have indeed been blessed so others will also indeed be nourished to the same degree or even much further.

"On the other hand, if we aspire for devotional service but are not completely free from anarthas, we get an institutional rubber stamped guru who can easily discourage or mislead his disciples? It seems to me that Srila Prabhupada is more merciful than that. Though in fact I wasn't looking for one with a big, big rubber stamp, but rather one who would not interfere with my relationship with Srila Prabhupada."

Dear Pandu Prabhu,

Srila Prabhupada is so merciful we cannot comprehend it. We can't even experience a drop of the ocean of Srila Prabhupada's Mercy. Otherwise, how could we complain that our discouragement with our situation is because Srila Prabhupada is not merciful enough? These are tests, baba. We all face them and have to overcome them.

Because His internal form is located right within your own heart, Srila Prabhupada knows your desires and what you deserve, too. If you are looking for someone who will not interfere with your relationship with Srila Prabhupada, but rather BE your relationship with Srila Prabhupada, it will be the person who knows you by heart, the person who can defeat you in every way, answer every question, who is the embodiment of honest, selfless surrender to Srila Prabhupada, and who always only glorifies the Acaryas, Srila Prabhupada and the Lord.

He will be shown to you only if you sincerely want to serve Srila Prabhupada birth after birth. As Caitya guru, that is His Divine function, to show you His external form. He knows you better than you know yourself. We get what we want and deserve. There is no 'mistake' by God.

One more thing, lots of times devotees worry about their problems and about not making it "back to Godhead" this life. The mood of real devotees is the mood of Lord Caitanya, "All i want is your causeless devotional service in my life, birth after birth." Frankly, most of us are not going to go back to Godhead this life, but Sri Caitya Guru stays with each soul, birth after birth, and He will make all arrangements for us to advance more and more if we just remain true to Srila Prabhupada. We can stop worrying about ourselves and focus more on trying to bring happiness to Srila Prabhupada. The ISKCON society will engage beginners in Srila Prabhupada's service. When the time is right, we will get His external form, then, when the time is right we will get His internal form. After that the Lord's actual spontaneous devotional service. This is a very hopeful and secure path.

Hare Krishna.
in the service of Srila Prabhupada

What was the result of the Gaudiya Math not selecting Srila Prabhupada as the Acarya as he manifested His effulgence? They got left out but they don't even realize it. Even now they are claiming they got the answer, they got the position. Actually, they lost connection with the Supersoul and according to Srila Prabhupada, became dried-up tribularies of the Sri Guru Parampara river of Krishna Prema. (CC) They claim to be associates of Sri Sri Radha and Krishna but do not even know their own Spiritual Master's eternal, internal form, so what can they have realized? It is only by the blessing of the Mercy Manifestation of Lord Nityananda that one can approach service of Sri Sri Radha and Krishna. This is the work of Kali- pretending and cheating.

HAD they realized Who Srila Prabhupada was and cooperated with him they would have been saved, it was envy and ambition which kept them from the truth. As the surrendered disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, Srila Prabhupada always follows his own master, He does not invent or concoct any 'new way'. The scriptural passages describing the relationship between the Lord, the Supersoul, the Spiritual Master and the disciple are not invalid. They are real and eternal. The ritviks should humbly serve their eternal master the Supersoul Chaita guru, and because they can't hear Him speaking directly within their hearts, they should "select the self-effulgent acarya among them" and cooperate, while acting as ritviks of Srila Prahupada. ISKCON gurus should do the same. Otherwise, despite thinking they know everything and have the position....dried up.

Kula-pavana:Pranams to you all… I have not written here for a while but i need help with my research.... I have a question to all the disciples of Srila Prabhupada or anybody else ‘in the know’… Did SP specifically ask the 11 authorized initiating gurus to play his Gayatri tape to the new brahmana initiates after his passing, or did he authorize the 11 to give Gayatri mantra directly to those disciples? Please forgive me for bringing up this issue here, but I am looking for some historical perspective from those who were around when the Transition took place. Your help will be greatly appreciated. your servant...

Tape was used way before these 11 were nomitated. But there is no clarity about second initiation at all, they were definitelly to give first initiations. However even before the 11 were selected senior devotees were giving gayatri mantras (before the tape and during the tape).

Just to add some spice,i once asked my siksa guru his divine grace Tamala krishna goswami about the ability of some devotees to serve in an ''inspired manner'' previous to initiation.Though i had been stumbling along for 8 months,other prospective devotees were obviously empowered, they were situated on the devotional mood and were more convinced.They were able to perform sankirtan in an almost blessed empowered manner., their intent was superior naturally,while being also very successfully.Their sadhana was steady ,they chanted with an intensity that i marveled at.These were the days of complete surrender,an almost total dedication to sankirtan books and paraphenalia which meant the society had a cohesion that is now very hard to find in my opinion.''He answered that for these devotees,the initiating spiritual master is already present.''I was envious as hell'',though not initiated i was glad when we all took diksa at the same time.

Actually ccd and pandu das srila Prabhupada did actually accept at least one guru to initiate even while he was personally present.That was his grace siddhaswarupananda maharaja who had infact been accepted by srila Prabhupada.He had already been initiating before joining iskcon and accepting Prabhupada .He was directed that in the future all disciples should be brought to him personally to be initiated.That was in New Zealand and this can be verified by madhudwisa das the gbc at the time.He was told to continue after srila Prabhupada ascent to the spiritual world.

Siddhaswarupa swami was the gbc in hawaii in1976....He was able to lead a group of devotees called the''haribols''who had a chapter in new Zealand.The haribols were more relaxed with the regulative principles...possibly following one or two ...according to how they felt.In new Zealand the haribol chapter was lead by tusta krishna swami so when srila Prabhupada came he encouraged both groups of devotees.Siddhaswarupa swami and tusta krishna swami had experienced problems dealing with madhudwisa swami and the local iskcon devotees.....both groups wanted clarification as to who was the legitimate ,authorized followers of srila Prabhupada.