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If one accepts Srila Prabhupad as his guru, is there a need of intiation(ritvik)
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I took first and second initiation (ritvik) from Srila Prabhupad ...but even rivik intiation(as i have heard )should be given by GBC....
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Why don't you ask GBC about it?
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ritvik shmitvik... initiation means, that there is volountary acceptance on BOTH sides. you simply can not receive diksa from Prabhupada, just like you can not receive diksa from Narada Muni or Vedavyasa. guru MUST accept a disciple. Bhaktisiddhanta had to go to a great length to secure initiation from Srila Gaurakishora. You CAN NOT just take initiation from someone if they do not physically accept you as their disciple.
The idea of post humous ritvik initiations clearly indicates that people have no clue what initiation (diksa) is. In the entire Vedic literature there is no example of such a thing (posthumous initiation). And those who claim that Prabhupada invented it simply bring disgrace to Srila Prabhupada. -
I think if question does not make sense - answer will never make it. BTW there is no need to confuse the question - there is nobody here from GBCs so why ask us, ask GBC.
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I took first and second initiation (ritvik) from Srila Prabhupad also can mean:
1)I took first and second initiation (ritvik) from Srila Prabhupad when he was present - bonafide disciple
2) I took first and second initiation (ritvik) from Srila Prabhupad when he left the manifest pastimes - bogus disciple
3)I took first and second initiation (ritvik) from Srila Prabhupad - because GBC told me to - fiction. -
ccd prabhu......i'm a bit confused, so there's no such thing as ritvik at present.....
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ritvik shmitvik... initiation means, that there is volountary acceptance on BOTH sides. you simply can not receive diksa from Prabhupada, just like you can not receive diksa from Narada Muni or Vedavyasa. guru MUST accept a disciple. Bhaktisiddhanta had to go to a great length to secure initiation from Srila Gaurakishora. You CAN NOT just take initiation from someone if they do not physically accept you as their disciple.Kula-pavana:
The idea of post humous ritvik initiations clearly indicates that people have no clue what initiation (diksa) is. In the entire Vedic literature there is no example of such a thing (posthumous initiation). And those who claim that Prabhupada invented it simply bring disgrace to Srila Prabhupada.
1) Srila Prabhupada formally established ritvik initiations on July 9th 1977. Before then, ritvik initiations were being conducted by Kirtanananda and Revatinandana in 1973. So where is this idea of "pre-samadhi ritvik initiations" mentioned in our Vedic literature? Would Kula-pavana criticise SP for going against the Vedic system by introducing ritvik initiations in the first place?
2) You can't accept initiation from Naradamuni or Vedavyasa because you have to receive diksha from the CURRENT link, which is Srila Prabhupada:
"in order to receive the real message of Srimad-Bhagavatam one should approach the CURRENT link, or spiritual master, in the chain of disciplic succession. After being initiated by the proper spiritual master in that chain of succession, one should engage himself in the discharge of tapasya in the execution of devotional service." (SB 2.9.7. purport).
3) Srila Prabhupada delegated his representatives for accepting disciples for initiation, as he could not and did not meet or examine every one of his disciples for the stipulated 6-12 months (see below):
"In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life—illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, WE first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaisnava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master OR HIS REPRESNTATIVE for at least six months to a year." (Cc Madhya 24.330 purport) -
1. Yes, pre-samadhi ritvik initiations are not part of our tradition. SP considered them to be necessary inclusion at a particular time, due to rapid expansion of ISKCON and his concentration on writing books. Just like one can eat meat when faced with starvation, the typical system of initiations was changed out of sheer necessity for the duration of the crisis.
2. SP is not a current link - he passed on to Vaikuntha.
3. see point 1. the same situation apply. -
kula pavana said:
"You CAN NOT just take initiation from someone if they do not physically accept you as their disciple."
isn't ekalavya, who accepted dhrona unilaterally as his guru, an example of the fantasy of this assertion? -
kula pavana said:janmastami das:
"You CAN NOT just take initiation from someone if they do not physically accept you as their disciple."
isn't ekalavya, who accepted dhrona unilaterally as his guru, an example of the fantasy of this assertion?
Yes, he is. He was a wild tribesman of low culture, and his punishment by Drona was quite instructive. Drona asked him for his thumb. He complied, and that made him only a good archer, but not an exceptional archer. In the same way you could say that a unilateral acceptance of a guru places a barrier on your further progress. -
one thing is to accept Srila Prabhupada as your only guru, a personal, intimate choice that I respect as any other, another is to officially equate them as disciples duly accepted by him (phallacy).
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one thing is to accept Srila Prabhupada as your only guru, a personal, intimate choice that I respect as any other, another is to officially equate them as disciples duly accepted by him (phallacy).mishra:
That is true. We are all taking siksa from Srila Prabhupada by reading his books and listening to his lectures, but that is not what is implied here, as the subject of the thread is formal and binding initiation (diksa). -
> 1. Yes, pre-samadhi ritvik initiations are not part of our tradition. SP considered them to be necessary inclusion at a particular time, due to rapid expansion of ISKCON and his concentration on writing books.
So did Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. Sri Jatisekhara Das, disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, recounts his remembrances:
"It was only in 1931 or 1932 that another devotee
bearing the same name, Puri Maharaja, who was
visiting Berhampur, pushed him into taking harernama.
He told him that he should get initiated because he
was from a Vaisnava family, and even though he wasn't
so much inclined he coerced him saying, "Next time I
come I'll bring Sarasvati Thakura's japa-mala for
you." The system they had if Sarasvati Thakura could
not be physically present was that he would chant on
the japa-mala, which would then be sent to the
aspiring devotee, and in this way they would take
harernama from him. When Puri Maharaja was given his
japa-mala in this way his name wasn't changed. His
name was Narasimha at the time so he became Narasimha
Brahmacari." (from the collection of remembrances of
Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati by his disciples, by Bhakti
Vikasa Swami)
So the system of initiation without personal presence
of the guru is not something new. But it was
discontinued after Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's
disappearance. -
1. Yes, pre-samadhi ritvik initiations are not part of our tradition. SP considered them to be necessary inclusion at a particular time, due to rapid expansion of ISKCON and his concentration on writing books. Just like one can eat meat when faced with starvation, the typical system of initiations was changed out of sheer necessity for the duration of the crisis.Kula-pavana:
2. SP is not a current link - he passed on to Vaikuntha.
3. see point 1. the same situation apply.
1. So you are claiming that neither pre-samadhi ritvik nor post-samadhi ritvik are part of our tradition. So you are saying SP is un-Vedic?
2. In the Bhagavad-gita As It Is introduction, SP lists himself as the current link in the list of the Disciplic Succession (no. 32, I think). Who would you suggest appears as no. 33?
3. Since SP's books are meant to last 10,000 years, unless you are daring enough to change SP's words in the Bhagavad-gita and the Cc, then SP remains the current link; and his use of representatives to vet and initiate disciples on his behalf remains. -
>VEDA:
So the system of initiation without personal presence
of the guru is not something new. But it was
discontinued after Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's
disappearance.
You're joking, aren't you?! Srila Prabhupada, who is guru after Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's disappearance, initiated thousands of disciples without ever having met them- it's called the RITVIK system! -
[cite] jay:
1. So you are claiming that neither pre-samadhi ritvik nor post-samadhi ritvik are part of our tradition. So you are saying SP is un-Vedic?
2. In the Bhagavad-gita As It Is introduction, SP lists himself as the current link in the list of the Disciplic Succession (no. 32, I think). Who would you suggest appears as no. 33?
3. Since SP's books are meant to last 10,000 years, unless you are daring enough to change SP's words in the Bhagavad-gita and the Cc, then SP remains the current link; and his use of representatives to vet and initiate disciples on his behalf remains.
1. What I am saying is that SP modified the tradition out of NECESSITY alone. Vedas allow non-standard means in times of great need, like eating meat when faced with starvation. Still, we know what the proper STANDARD is: vegetarian diet and initiation from a physically present guru.
2. His disciples are the current link. If one or more of them becomes a real acharya by their qualifications and work, their names will be listed in the future. THERE WERE HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS OF QUALIFIED VAISHNAVA GURUS IN OUR LINE THAT WERE NOT INCLUDED IN THAT LIST since the time of Lord Brahma.
3. Who made such a prophecy? Based on what I know it is just another ISKCON myth, born of a statement made by one of Srila Prabhupada's admirerers, and now preached like a gospel. And besides, Krsna-dvaipayana Vyasa's books are still around today, yet he is NOT the current link. His writings will be around till the end of Kali-yuga, and that is a Vedic prediction. Books do not give you diksa. -
Brahma-Gayatri, also known as Sürya-Gayatri, is the first Gayatri mantra in the series of mantras chanted by Brahman-initiated devotees.
Srila Prabhupäda, following in his spiritual master's footsteps, has also combined the Vedic and pancarätrika initiations. All Vaisnavas who take this initiation (mantra-diksa) are duty-bound to chant the Gäyatri mantras received from the spiritual master thrice daily for the rest of their lives.
- Vedabase, "Preparing for Worship
Abhigamana and Upädäna (...)
SISYA Initiation, is the first initiation, harinam (vaishnava) pancarätrika initiation Dhiksa, is the second initiation
I take it that the maha mantra is given to ANY new vaishnava disciple by a spiritual master. As far as the present guru goes, Vayu, the wind, delivers up the mantra ("ma"-mind, and "tra" liberation) for deliverance. Doesn't Krsna provide all necessities of life for all living entities, mostly those living beings who are (suras) Vaishnava, and NOT to (a-suras) A-Vaishnava? (...) Hare Krishna -
As soon as that Gäyatré entered into the ear-holes of Brahmä, he became the twice-born and began to chant the Gäyatré. Whoever has received the same Gäyatré in reality, has attained his spiritual rebirth. The status of a twice-born that is obtained in accordance with one's worldly nature and lineage, by the fettered souls in this mundane world, is far inferior to that of the twice-born who obtains admission into the transcendental world; because the initiation or acquisition of transcendental birth as a result of spiritual initiation is the highest of glories in as much as the jéva is thereby enabled to attain to the transcendental realm.
~~Vedabase, Sri Brahma-samhitä 5.26 (...) -
jimycycle: what your two last posts have to do with the question???
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> You're joking, aren't you?! Srila Prabhupada, who is guru after Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's disappearance, initiated thousands of disciples without ever having met them- it's called the RITVIK system!
No, I'm serious. BSST never claimed to remain the current link after his disappearance, nor his disciples initiated (as ritviks) anyone as his disciple. This idea was allegedly brought us after his dissapearance, but was immediately rejected as nonsastric.
Re pre samadhi diksas: SP agreed to initiate them and could reject someone he would want to reject. In post samadhi version he is not allowed to do that. -
>Re pre samadhi diksas: SP agreed to initiate them and could reject someone he would want to >reject. In post samadhi version he is not allowed to do that.
Consent is one thing. Other thing is daksina, that is one and the main item. It was given by service in his presence by all INITATES, direct or indirect, now the so-called disciples, don't even give service to their guru (as he is gone and can not check them) and use the same for serving some leaders of the splinter groups. -
> You're joking, aren't you?! Srila Prabhupada, who is guru after Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's disappearance, initiated thousands of disciples without ever having met them- it's called the RITVIK system!VEDA:
No, I'm serious. BSST never claimed to remain the current link after his disappearance, nor his disciples initiated (as ritviks) anyone as his disciple. This idea was allegedly brought us after his dissapearance, but was immediately rejected as nonsastric.
Re pre samadhi diksas: SP agreed to initiate them and could reject someone he would want to reject. In post samadhi version he is not allowed to do that.
Yes, SBST did not claim to be the current link after his disappearance because he authorised Srila Prabhupada to succeed him:
Indian man: When did you become spiritual the leader of Krsna Consciousness?
Srila Prabhupada: What is that?
Brahmananda: He is asking when did you become the spiritual leader of Krsna Consciousness?
Srila Prabhupada: When my Guru Maharaja ordered me. This is the guru parampara.
Indian man: Did it...
Srila Prabhupada: Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.
(SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)
But SP did not authorise anyone to succeed him. He set up a ritvik system, whereby he delegated acceptance of initiates to his ritvik representatives, giving them power of attorney both pre- and post-samadhi:
Prabhupada: So without waiting for me, wherever you consider it is right... That will depend on discretion.
Tamala Krsna: On discretion.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: That’s for first and second initiations.
Prabhupada: Hm.
(Conversation 7/7/77) -
[cite] Kula-pavana:
3. Who made such a prophecy? Based on what I know it is just another ISKCON myth, born of a statement made by one of Srila Prabhupada's admirerers, and now preached like a gospel.
Are you now saying Srila Prabhupada is a myth-maker?:
"When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeared, He ushered in the era for the sankirtana movement. It is also said that for ten thousand years this era will continue. This means that simply by accepting the sankirtana movement and chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, the fallen souls of this Kali-yuga will be delivered. After the Battle of Kuruksetra, at which Bhagavad-gita was spoken, Kali-yuga continues for 432,000 years, of which only 5,000 years have passed. Thus there is still a balance of 427,000 years to come. Of these 427,000 years, the 10,000 years of the sankirtana movement inaugurated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu 500 years ago provide the opportunity for the fallen souls of Kali-yuga to take to the Krsna consciousness movement, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and thus be delivered from the clutches of material existence and return home, back to Godhead."
(SB 8.5.23 purport) -
[cite] jay:
SBST did not claim to be the current link after his disappearance because he authorised Srila Prabhupada to succeed him...
(...)
But SP did not authorise anyone to succeed him.
And where exactly is the physical proof that SBST ordered Srila Prabhupada to succeed him? The proof is only in SP words. There are no records that prove any such authorization ever took place. We accept that on faith alone. In the same fashion SP disciples may say that SP authorized them to become his successor and their disciples may accept that on faith.
SBST authorized some of his disciples to accept their own disciples even while he was still in this world. And they did initiate their own disciples in his presence, including a first ever Westerner to take initiation in Gaudiya Matha. These are well known facts. Srila Prabhupada was not one of these explicitly authorized disciples. His authorization most likely came after he took sannyasa, through instructions received in a dream. -
[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:jay:
3. Who made such a prophecy? Based on what I know it is just another ISKCON myth, born of a statement made by one of Srila Prabhupada's admirerers, and now preached like a gospel.
Are you now saying Srila Prabhupada is a myth-maker?:
[/quote]
No, some of his disciples are the myth-makers. The quote you posted makes no mention of SP books lasting 10,000 years or him being a current link for that period of time. THAT is the myth. Here is your quote again:
"Since SP's books are meant to last 10,000 years, unless you are daring enough to change SP's words in the Bhagavad-gita and the Cc, then SP remains the current link; and his use of representatives to vet and initiate disciples on his behalf remains." -
I think what Jay refers to is when Kali yuga comes to a close, after the "golden era" of KC, there will will not be any krsna bhaktas left, but rather they'll be degraded to same level as meat eater(s). This is what I read in a talk SP had given in 1968 with Allen Ginsburg. Also, when SP first came to Butler, PA, he initiated my friends mother into Brahman and changed her name from one given by guru Muktananda Swami. So, then SP had already been giving initiation(s) on American soil prior to any American Iskcon disciples. This is a "fact" -- not some "fictional myth."
Misra- My point relates is Dhiksha second, not first initiation - and ONLY after brahman Sisya which was later reversed in order to account for a larger scale Iskcon movement. Perhaps the "ritvik" system has the unintended consequence that must now be adhered to after the departure of Srila Prabhupada. But it remains that India's guru system of sampradaya initiates a devotee into Gayatri, or Brahman FIRST prior to one's taking Hari-nam initiation, or enabling a better guru-disciple relationship to evolve. -
Also, when SP first came to Butler, PA, he initiated my friends mother into Brahman and changed her name from one given by guru Muktananda Swami. So, then SP had already been giving initiation(s) on American soil prior to any American Iskcon disciples. This is a "fact" -- not some "fictional myth."jimmycle:
Interesting and important information. I did not know that SP initiated someone when he first came to Butler, PA. Is that a verifiable information? What was the name of that lady? -
Yes, it is verifiable and her name was Ushalla. Prabhupada gave her personal these instructions: to stay married and fixed in her daily puja to Lord Krsna no matter what her husband did or didn't do in terms of KC. Her new name is Uma and she still lives in PA, but she also travels to NY and NJ temples. Her son and I became close friends and his mother had once insisted that he stay for a weekend in the Mandira in order to see if he would turn out liking devotional life. He is now a grhasta, doctor, and used to tell me that either you become a doctor (as his father is also a doctor), or else you become a bhakta devotee, (he believes that KC literally is meant for everyone), or devotee, are both good. So Prabhupada says, "Don't be surprised at who leaves the movement, yet we should be surprised at who stays." If everyone in the world became a Bhakta - even the Pope (not the 'lowly' bhakta as some in the bhakta program would have you believe, one can reach the highest elevation in the matter of a second) as it is, but simply lives out their life in the mandira, then where would there be enough room in the mandir for newcomers? Hare Krsna
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I am meditating on what purpose the GBC would then have. I know how confusing this is to new "bhaktas" when so many are instructing others from "their" vyasasanas, and changing the instructions (vapu) which SP originally spoken in his vani , like this universal philospohy, we're not the body (fundamental philosophies available to youth of India - yet it's difficult for difficult minded western brain to comprehend. I see the GBC as body of Iskcon which we need, but I question what is the 'blood?' Books? We only need the SB and Gita as our guidance for the next 10,000 years - a "Golden age" or "dvarpa yuga."
Kalau nästy eva nästy eva nästy eva gatir anyathä. If we take to Krsna consciousness, then we are not affected by the bad effects of Kali-yuga. That is recommended. Vedabase, Bhagavad-gétä 7.1
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Sydney, February 16, 1973 -
1. Yes, pre-samadhi ritvik initiations are not part of our tradition. SP considered them to be necessary inclusion at a particular time, due to rapid expansion of ISKCON and his concentration on writing books. Just like one can eat meat when faced with starvation, the typical system of initiations was changed out of sheer necessity for the duration of the crisis.Kula-pavana:
2. SP is not a current link - he passed on to Vaikuntha.
3. see point 1. the same situation apply.
[p]Srila Prabhupada explicitly stated his requirements for accepting disciples and established the rtvik method for having this performed without his active involvement. Indeed there is no such method established by Narada Muni or any other prior acarya to my knowledge; but to claim that the method Srila Prabhupada established is not Vedic is indisputably an offense against Srila Prabhupada.[/p]
[p]The lack of any "moon among the stars" of Srila Prabhupada's disciples quite reasonably justifies his choice not to cancel or terminate his acceptance of disciples via the automatic rtvik method that he ordered, and to not authorize any diksa guru.[/p]
[p]Who thinks it wise to take as one's life and soul the orders of a "guru" who is not a real acarya? It sounds like a prescription for disaster to me, kind of like what ISKCON has been experiencing for the past 30 years. The crisis will be over when a self-effulgent acarya manifests, or when the GBC surrenders to Srila Prabhupada's instructions.[/p] -
..." If one accepts Srila Prabhupad as his guru " that's fine, but Prabhupada should accept them, this is much more important, but I undestand your point.All present Iskcon gurus are bogus and should be avoided,better to remain uninitiated and follow the proccess and reamin fixed,Lord Chaitanya will protect without a doubt.
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A rather sweeping statement hariharibol....how would you define "bogus guru" in your mind....I know that my spiritual master is bona fide but I am interested to hear how you come to the conclusion that you do.
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Kula-pavana said: 2. SP is not a current link - he passed on to Vaikuntha.
This statement is just too much for me. If Srila Prabhupada is not THE current link, then who is? ISKCON rock-star Gurus? You must be joking.... Even GBC recognizes Srila Prabhupada as primary siksa guru for entire ISKCON, forever. Srila Prabhupada is certainly current link for us, and will be for all to come. And regarding your statement, that he passed on to Vaikuntha.... well, where would you get such information from. You have some special astral connections with some semi-transparent beings?
In any case, you present Srila Prabhupada as being something from the past, and that's extremely distasteful to me. Srila Prabhupada will be always present to all sincere seekers, just as he always was, through his books and other siksa sources. All other gurus are there just to connect you to Srila Prabhupada. No other guru can come even close to Srila Prabhupada in availability to disciple and quality of siksa.
Also, we need not forget Srila Prabhupada's explanations of Guru not only as a person, but also as eternal principle of Parampara. We tend to get fixated more on a person, but there is also a bigger picture to be aware of.
Besides, Srila Prabhupada empowered all his disciples to become Gurus, and he never said that only those, who are voted by GBC, can initiate disciples. What to speak of 3 or 5 year suspensions for fallen gurus.... where did Srila Prabhupada ever support idea of a fallen guru? It is all GBC concocted ecclesiastical nonsense, all for the need of their church system. Who says that vaisnava guru needs to be GBC certified? It was never before a requirement to initiate disciples. Was Srila Prabhupada GBC certified? Or any other acarya before him? It is invented non-traditional concoction, that will fall sooner or later. If initiator is Srila Prabhupada's disciple, and is following all that disciple SP is supposed to follow, then he can connect you to Srila Prabhupada just as well as those with GBC branding on their foreheads.
Ritvik may not be traditional, true, and may not be eternal solution, but it was presented to us by Srila Prabhupada himself, and in absence of any other solid guru system, it seems quite fair alternative to GBC voted-in corporate ecclesiastical guru system. At least in balances-out their ecclesiastical authority structure. Sure, one day, when gurus are qualified.... but we are not there yet. -
Kula Pavana said:
3. Who made such a prophecy? Based on what I know it is just another ISKCON myth, born of a statement made by one of Srila Prabhupada's admirerers, and now preached like a gospel. And besides, Krsna-dvaipayana Vyasa's books are still around today, yet he is NOT the current link. His writings will be around till the end of Kali-yuga, and that is a Vedic prediction. Books do not give you diksa.
Srila Prabhupada is describing present 10.000 years, starting 500 years ago:
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When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeared, He ushered in the era for the sankirtana movement. It is also said that for ten thousand years this era will continue. This means that simply by accepting the sankirtana movement and chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, the fallen souls of this Kali-yuga will be delivered. After the Battle of Kuruksetra, at which Bhagavad-gita was spoken, Kali-yuga continues for 432,000 years, of which only 5,000 years have passed. Thus there is still a balance of 427,000 years to come. Of these 427,000 years, the 10,000 years of the sankirtana movement inaugurated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu 500 years ago provide the opportunity for the fallen souls of Kali-yuga to take to the Krsna consciousness movement, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and thus be delivered from the clutches of material existence and return home, back to Godhead.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 8.5.23
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So we are doing, and we are getting response. It is not without response. It will increase. That is also stated, that for ten thousand years Krsna consciousness movement will increase. Yes.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation with Dr. Arnold Toynbee, Famous Historian, at his home or office -- July 22, 1973, London
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Besides, you seem to have some misconception regarding the LINK. Diksa is not the link, siksa is the link. Diksa you can get from any vaisnava, but siksa connects you to Parampara and Krsna. It is not the ceremony, but following of instructions. Vaisnava sampradaya is siksa sampradaya - you can check list in BG, and you will see unbroken siksa connection.
Guru means vani and vapuh. In physical absence of guru, vani is more important. There is no difference between (bonafide) gurus, and they are one in their teaching. This is the principle of Guru. Of course, one may present himself as being guru, teach laughing therapies and past life regressions to ISKCON wanabee's, and cheat them quite succesfully, but we should be able to recognize such rascal, and avoid him. Either one is guru, or he is not - there is no fallen guru really. Srila Prabhupada taught about this principle of Guru, not only about a physically present person guru.
So forget about diksa as being most important. While important, it is not most important. You get diksa from where you like, or from where is practical to you. What counts is who you follow, and how you follow. If Krsna sees, that you try to follow his dear devotee, then He will help. And having GBC stamp is really of no value on this level - they can stamp all they want, in the end it is not important how they wish to see it, it is how Krsna wishes to see it. And judging from eternal siksa vaisnava sampradaya, Krsna doesn't care about any group of people claiming, that they are the only way, that only they can appoint bonafide gurus, and that it is possible only through them.
Just like you, both Ritvik church and GBC church are fixated on diksa succesion. Maybe thats why they are both off, struggle with their existence, and will be gone eventually. Vaisnava sampradaya was always a siksa sampradaya, and will remain so, even long after GBC rubber-stamping and ritvik rubber-stamping is way back, forgotten through centuries.
Guru-disciple relationship is a personal thing and you cannot really institutionalize it, no matter how good are your intentions. -
..." If one accepts Srila Prabhupad as his guru " that's fine, but Prabhupada should accept them, this is much more important, but I undestand your point.All present Iskcon gurus are bogus and should be avoided,better to remain uninitiated and follow the proccess and reamin fixed,Lord Chaitanya will protect without a doubt.hariharibol:
Srila Prabhupada automated the process, specifying his standards for accepting disciples, and giving the method by which initiations would take place in his absence. Prior to his mahasamadhi, disciples were connected with him via diksa without asking him, using the process he authorized. He never rescinded that process, nor did he authorize the initiation process that is currently being employed. -
Giri-nayaka das:
Besides, Srila Prabhupada empowered all his disciples to become Gurus, and he never said that only those, who are voted by GBC, can initiate disciples.
As I understand it, he empowered his disciples to become siksa gurus by instructing them, giving them knowledge and ordering them to share that knowledge with others; however he did not authorize any of his disciples to become diksa gurus. Can anyone give convincing evidence to the contrary? -
Apparently Jayapataka Swami, Radha Govinda Swami and Gour Govinda Swami have said that Srila Prabhupada told them to accept disciples. I am not aware of the details.
-
Can anyone explain why other spiritual masters give diksa initiation? For example Narayana Maharaja, who is a disciple of Srila Prabhupada's godbrother. Why is this ritvik theory only applicable to Srila Prabhupada and his disciples and not others?
-
[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]As I understand it, he empowered his disciples to become siksa gurus by instructing them, giving them knowledge and ordering them to share that knowledge with others; however he did not authorize any of his disciples to become diksa gurus. Can anyone give convincing evidence to the contrary?[/quote]
Wrong. Here is evidence to contrary, Srila Prabhupada's system for future gurus, system how one becomes guru, their titles and plan that all who pass through this system will be allowed to INITIATE disciples:
==============
Another examination will be held sometimes in 1971 on the four books, Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, and Nectar of Devotion. One who will pass this examination will be awarded with the title of Bhaktivedanta. I want that all of my spiritual sons and daughters will inherit this title of Bhaktivedanta, so that the family transcendental diploma will continue through the generations. Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Hamsaduta -- Los Angeles 3 January, 1969 [Based on the 1st paragraph, we believe that the original letter was incorrectly dated. Our estimate is that this is the correct date. -- Bhaktivedanta Archives]
=============
He actually empowered ALL his disciples, and all to come, to be diksa gurus, and continue traditional guru-disciple system. Diksa is important, and must go on, because without diksa how can there be siksa. But knowledge descends through siksa, not diksa. So siksa is even more important. You can take diksa from any vaisnava, doesn't matter. It is siksa that matters.
Diksa guru can be only one. And he can also be the only siksa guru to disciple, although usually this is not the case, as vaisnavas usually have several siksa gurus. Sure, this tradition is not followed in ISKCON, diksa guru is promoted as your all in all, and every disciple is brainwashed to believe, that his diksa guru is "bonafide".
Above Srila Prabhupada's instruction for gurus, among others, was never followed. Instead GBC took it over, and started rubber stamping their own "cardinals on duty". Of course, GBC stepped in right after the fiasco of eleven self appointed mahabhagavata acaryas, to clean up the mess, but theirs is actually where mess really started.
Srila Prabhupada intended for brahminically minded, studious gurus. GBC instead pushed forward those, who were good at making show and attracting masses. Instead of peaceful brahminical gurus, we got passionate workaholic superstar gurus. Instead of peaceful and sober individuals, we got religious corporate establishment, a church. And instead of increase, there is decay only - just as it has to be for us blockheads to learn.
Srila Prabhupada wanted title Bhaktivedanta to be inherited by all future Gurus, sons and DAUGHTERS, and he wanted it to continue for initiators through generations. Instead GBC invented all other Pada/deva/goswami.... titles, breaking any connection with Bhaktivedanta legacy.
Srila Prabhupada had a program. Regarding gurus and regarding management. For GBC he formed a perfect system with Direction of Management, DOM. Some individuals acted against this program, and created their own charade. Now they are known by the name of ISKCON GBC Society of West Bengal (see their official title on their resolutions), and they are whimsically establishing ecclesiastical system of authority within ISKCON, although Srila Prabhupada said that he didn't want any fancy management. Their system is faulty, and every new permutation of their mistake is getting weaker and weaker. And clearly, their system is collapsing even in their presence, and when they will pass on, their system will be erased and forgotten for good.
Srila Prabhupada had a system, and until his system is established and followed, GBC ISKCON structure will collapse. Try to save it, try to protect it....hopeless, it is dead already, and it smells pretty bad already too. And it will only get worse, until it decomposes, or is cleaned off. -
...All present Iskcon gurus are bogus and should be avoided..hariharibol:
And how did you arrive at that conclusion, dear prabhu? You have met all of them and carefully examined their qualifications? Or you just accept the ritvik-babble as gospel? -
Can anyone explain why other spiritual masters give diksa initiation? For example Narayana Maharaja, who is a disciple of Srila Prabhupada's godbrother....why is this theory only applicable to Srila Prabhupada and his disciples and not others?rasa108:
Because this is the way of the Vedic tradition. When a guru passes on, any of his disciples who feel qualified and authorized to give diksa do so if there are people interested to become their disciples. -
Kula-pavana said: 2. SP is not a current link - he passed on to Vaikuntha.Giri-nayaka das:
This statement is just too much for me. If Srila Prabhupada is not THE current link, then who is? ISKCON rock-star Gurus? You must be joking.... Even GBC recognizes Srila Prabhupada as primary siksa guru for entire ISKCON, forever. Srila Prabhupada is certainly current link for us, and will be for all to come. And regarding your statement, that he passed on to Vaikuntha.... well, where would you get such information from. You have some special astral connections with some semi-transparent beings?
In any case, you present Srila Prabhupada as being something from the past, and that's extremely distasteful to me. Srila Prabhupada will be always present to all sincere seekers, just as he always was, through his books and other siksa sources. All other gurus are there just to connect you to Srila Prabhupada. No other guru can come even close to Srila Prabhupada in availability to disciple and quality of siksa.
Who is the current link? To disciples of a particular guru it is his guru. For you - if you are an actual disciple of SP - it is Srila Prabhupada. Do you think SP was the only disciple of BST who was a link to the GV sampradaya in modern times? That is a complete bunk. BST personally authorized 2 of his sannyasi disciples to take on disciples even in BST presence, let alone after his passing: Bon Maharaja and Bhakti Saranga Maharaja. Prabhupada took sannyasa from his Godbrother Kesava Maharaja - was Kesava Maharaja not a valid link of our sampradaya? He had several thousand disciples.
Srila Prabhupada is both past and present, but for most (if not all) new devotees he is just the past. I believe he passed on to Vaikuntha because some very enlightened Vaishnavas said so. -
Dear Giri-nayaka prabhu,
Hare Krishna. PAMHO. AGTSP. That's an interesting reference, and it gives me pause. However, it's a pretty early reference, so I wonder if Srila Prabhupada ever followed up with it. Did he actually hold those examinations and award the title of Bhaktivedanta to disciples as a result? I never heard of him doing such a thing; and if he did not, then it would appear to me that he changed his mind at some point.
Ideally speaking, "diksa guru can be only one," as you say. However, in practice we see that some devotees have one diksa guru, and other devotees have another. Sometimes they disagree with each other about important points. Also I've observed that diksa isn't merely a ceremony; it establishes a relationship where the disciple worships the guru, and the guru gives orders that the disciples take as if they're coming from Krishna.
For example, as a member of the Gita-nagari community, I've seen that althogh Srila Prabhupada established Gita-nagari, it is run according to Bhakti-Tirtha Swami's orders and for his glorification. Thus, for example, instead of spending money to pay debts to local businesses, which would give us a little respect in the community that would enable us to preach, we have a new, big samadhi building that BTS wanted for himself right beside the temple, but absolutely no local preaching. Book distribution, for his disciples, mostly means distributing BTS' books, mostly to established devotees. Control of temple management is dominated by BTS disciples. His disciples consider me their friend as long as I surrender to BTS' authority, but not their godbrother; for that, I would have had to take initiation from BTS. Once in a meeting with two BTS disciples in leadership positions, I said that this method will lead to disunity in ISKCON, where Srila Prabhupada's teachings will gradually fade from importance; and in response I was told that is the way it is supposed to be. Apparently that is what BTS taught.
Now we have a situation where there is a great deal of discord due to various political desires, and at a recent community meeting our GBC Ravindra Swarupa prabhu stated that our new bylaws were put in place to protect ISKCON temples from "enemies of ISKCON," whom he named as the "rtviks and followers of Narayana Maharaj." (Apparently this is the GBC's plan for keeping unity in ISKCON, by "religious nationalism," designating various enemies and defending our temples against them.) I was disturbed by the remark, which he made twice, and so I looked into it a little. I have not made an extensive study of the arguments promoted by the rtvik proponents, but from what I've seen their reasoning seems very good. I've also been reliably informed that a group of Narayana Maharaj followers are major donors to Gita-nagari. Considering that Gita-nagari seems to rely entirely on donor contributions, I wonder what will happen when these devotees find out that the GBC considers them "enemies."
Returning to your comment, you're making the point that Srila Prabhupada's leading disciples were interested in doing their own thing and not properly following Srila Prabhupada, and I presume he noticed this himself. This would explain why, although he would have liked to have had disciples qualified as diksa guru, he did not actually authorize anyone to become take that post. Instead, he created a system of automatic acceptance of disciples by him based upon established criteria for qualifying disciples. It seems to me that this system would work quite well if it was implemented. -
...Srila Prabhupada's leading disciples were interested in doing their own thing and not properly following Srila Prabhupada, and I presume he noticed this himself. This would explain why, although he would have liked to have had disciples qualified as diksa guru, he did not actually authorize anyone to become take that post. Instead, he created a system of automatic acceptance of disciples by him based upon established criteria for qualifying disciples. It seems to me that this system would work quite well if it was implemented.Pandu das:
There is not a single shastric example of a guru accepting disciples after his departure from this world. Srila Prabhupada makes no mention of contemplating any such system anywhere in his writings. No sadhus in our sampradaya ever spoke of such a system. Thus based on guru, sadhu, and shastra, such a system is unauthorized.
And anybody who thinks that being labelled 'ritvik guru' as opposed to 'regular guru' would have prevented the abuses of power by people such as Kirtanananda, Bhavananda, or Hansadutta, simply does not know the human nature and individuals in question. These people abused their power even when SP was still here. -
Who is the current link? To disciples of a particular guru it is his guru. For you - if you are an actual disciple of SP - it is Srila Prabhupada. Do you think SP was the only disciple of BST who was a link to the GV sampradaya in modern times? That is a complete bunk. BST personally authorized 2 of his sannyasi disciples to take on disciples even in BST presence, let alone after his passing: Bon Maharaja and Bhakti Saranga Maharaja. Prabhupada took sannyasa from his Godbrother Kesava Maharaja - was Kesava Maharaja not a valid link of our sampradaya? He had several thousand disciples.Kula-pavana:
Srila Prabhupada is both past and present, but for most (if not all) new devotees he is just the past. I believe he passed on to Vaikuntha because some very enlightened Vaishnavas said so.
Kula-pavana, my point is, that there is a bit more to CURRENT LINK then one person. And especially, if this "one single person" position is enforced upon us by GBC institutional guru system. Even if one got diksa from specific guru, it doesn't mean that this guru is his only link to Sampradaya. Actually, diksa guru needs not be even a prominent link to sampradaya. Link means siksa. And Srila Prabhupada is prominent siksa guru for all ISKCON devotees. Your problem is, that you try to limit CURRENT LINK to one person alone, namely diksa guru. This is wrong understanding. Siksa connection is actual connection. For ISKCON devotees this will always be Srila Prabhupada.
----------------
Otherwise, it is good that you clarified your personal beliefs regarding Srila Prabhupada being past and present, and then past again, and then passed on to Vaikuntha. It is very clear. Nice. -
Pandu Prabhu. Pamho. AgtSP.
There is an offensive theory regarding early references, that Srila Prabhupada didn't really know what he wanted when he came to the west, that he was also maybe a bit confused, and that he improvised as he went on. Even GBCs like to rely on this theory, especialy I heard Ravindra Swarupa dasa spreading such nonsense, to undermine Srila Prabhupada's instructions, and even legal documents.
I find such propositions distasteful, and prefer to see things differently. I'm faithful, that Srila Prabhupada knew exactly what is to be done, and he gave his clear vision from very beginning. Instead of thinking of Srila Prabhupada as fallible person, who was inventing through experience, I rather believe, that his followers, although sincere, were not able to manifest Srila Prabhupada's vision. Therefore Srila Prabhupada molded his expectations according to abilities of his followers. So his original idea remains valid, waiting for qualified people to implement it. (Same stands for Direction of Management, DOM.)
My point is, that later Srila Prabhupada's instructions do not negate older ones. They just show how broad Srila Prabhupada's vision was, and how it was not within the ability of the first followers to fulfill entire plan.
Srila Prabhupada was not the one to hold examinations. He created system, but it was not followed, so he let it aside. Now, if his idea was bad, and GBC figured it out better later, then we wouldn't have these discussions nowadays, is it? So, since GBCs ideas suck big time, no wonder devotees start to ask themselves if GBC actually did what Srila Prabhupada wanted. And such questions result in interesting answers.
Otherwise, things you are describing regarding your saintly local GBC, are real fun. I had some encounters with RSD some years ago, and at that time I was clearly in his "black book of ISKCON enemies, the envious fault-finder ones". Maybe I'm still in there.... He is funny with his fanaticism, and loyalty to his institutional masters. So educated, but so limited in vision. Well, whatever, we all get what we need....
Probably we will never know why Srila Prabhupada never appointed any successors. We have ocean of his guidance how one can recognize bonafide guru, and how to serve him. Those who study this standard a bit, get a bit picky with what GBC has to offer nowadays. I'm not saying that ritvik is better alternative. As I see it, we folowers are also not very qualified. If one is useless like myself, why would I need some super guru? For my needs, even the most spaced-out ISKCON or ritvik or gaudiya-math or any other guru is overkill.
When one becomes qualified as disciple, Krsna provides qualified guru. We get exactly what we need at this moment. No need to complain really. But at the same time, we should be looking towards better tomorrow, with enthusiasm. -
Dear Giri-nayaka prabhu,
Hare Krishna. I agree that Srila Prabhupada made no mistake. I'm saying that it appears that he changed his mind, as any person may do. Every living entity has free will to some degree, and thus specific details of the future are not entirely predictable. Srila Prabhupada once predicted an imminent World War III, and when it didn't happen, someone asked him about it. According to RSD's blog, "He responded: Krishna had changed His mind." Therefore we can understand that even though Srila Prabhupada can predict the future, as informed by Krishna, things can still change. I find it notable that as Srila Prabhupada was winding up his pastimes here prior to his mahasamadhi, he made no reference to his earlier plan that you mentioned. Instead he finalized the institution of a process whereby he would continue to accept disciples via rtvik representatives.
That he intended to continue to accept disciples indefinitely is proven in his Declaration of Will, “...a successor director or directors may be appointed by the remaining directors, provided the new director is my initiated
disciple...” (Srila Prabhupada’s Declaration of Will, June 4th, 1977) He did not say "a member of ISKCON in good standing," or "is an initiated discple following in my line," or any similar statement. He said, "my initiated discple." He, of course, knew what he was writing and made no mistake. Unless he was planning to lose his properties in India, or have them go unmanaged after the eventual departure of his initiated disciples, then it should be clear that that he intended the system of automatic rtvik initiations he implemented shortly before his mahasamadhi, with no sunset clause, to continue indefinitely. Otherwise that portion of Srila Prabhupada's Will makes no sense.
In answer to why one needs a super guru, it is because an imperfect disciple surrendered to an imperfect guru makes a potentially disasterous combination, carrying out the guru's orders for his sense gratification rather than for Krishna's pleasure. The guru's material desires, such as for personal fame (i.e. requesting a fancy samadhi memorial), are likely to be taken as pure and absolute. I don't know about you, but I do not want to surrender to anyone who is still struggling with the material modes of nature. It seems to me that the strong desire to have a guru who is 100% dedicated to Krishna's pleasure is a positive step in devotional service. -
..my point is, that there is a bit more to CURRENT LINK then one person. And especially, if this "one single person" position is enforced upon us by GBC institutional guru system. Even if one got diksa from specific guru, it doesn't mean that this guru is his only link to Sampradaya. Actually, diksa guru needs not be even a prominent link to sampradaya. Link means siksa. And Srila Prabhupada is prominent siksa guru for all ISKCON devotees. Your problem is, that you try to limit CURRENT LINK to one person alone, namely diksa guru. This is wrong understanding. Siksa connection is actual connection. For ISKCON devotees this will always be Srila Prabhupada.Giri-nayaka das:
Just think about a link and a chain in the physical sense. The link is connecting you (one link) to the sampradaya (rest of the chain) and ultimately Krishna through a particular person (connecting or uniting link). Usually that link means mantra diksa guru, because the mantra is Krsna in the form and taste carried by the particular sampradaya. Because diksa is only one, the link is only one. Mantra is extremely important here.
BST developed a very unique way of looking at the sampradaya - with connection passed primarily through siksa, at least starting with Jagannatha das Babaji - previous links in the sampradaya he outlined are more or less going along the straight diksa lines. I believe that altough there is some validity to this thinking, the main reason was to avoid the issue of Bhaktivinoda's diksa connection through the Vipin Bihari line. When Prabhupada was speaking about his initiated disciples being the next link he meant his diksa disciples, and only his diksa disciples. -
Pandu das:
That he intended to continue to accept disciples indefinitely is proven in his Declaration of Will, “...a successor director or directors may be appointed by the remaining directors, provided the new director is my initiated
disciple...” (Srila Prabhupada’s Declaration of Will, June 4th, 1977) He did not say "a member of ISKCON in good standing," or "is an initiated discple following in my line," or any similar statement. He said, "my initiated discple." He, of course, knew what he was writing and made no mistake. Unless he was planning to lose his properties in India, or have them go unmanaged after the eventual departure of his initiated disciples, then it should be clear that that he intended the system of automatic rtvik initiations he implemented shortly before his mahasamadhi, with no sunset clause, to continue indefinitely. Otherwise that portion of Srila Prabhupada's Will makes no sense.
I do not think you understand the way a Will document works in the legal sense. When you write a Will, you are passing ownership of your assets to a designated party and that legal arrangement is only valid as long as the designated party is alive, not for all eternity. It is the Will of my son which will decide how are the assets he received from me (in my Will) to be managed. That is how SP's Will is drawn. -
Dear Pandu Prabhu,
Regarding Srila Prabhupada's early instructions... I understand your points, but will maintain my view, as I personally feel safer with it. Coming to the west and setting guru system is another thing than predicting WW3. Instructions and predictions are two different things..... Krsna can change his mind regarding WW3, but revealing the implementation of eternal guru system for the next 10.000 years is another category. (maybe to RSD it is the same thing, but to me it is not even remotely connected). As I said, for me apparent development of Srila Prabhupada's views doesn't connect to evolution of his experiences in the west, but to his merciful nature and greatness, through which he was able to reach out and engage in pure devotional service even those, who were totally unqualified (and quite possibly still are).
I understand your points that Srila Prabhupada wanted ritvik system. I follow this ritvik issue carefully since quite some time, and as I said, I see ritvik system as fine alternative to GBC invented institutional guru system. I have no feelings of enmity towards ritvik branch of ISKCON. Whoever is fixed on pleasing Srila Prabhupada, that is ISKCON devotee. Fighting for houses is a disgrace to eternal vaisnava sampradaya. And criticizing one, just because some confused GBC sees him as enemy..., that's peak of stupidity for me. To me ritviks are just as much members of ISKCON as GBCs. I see that their historical part in social development of ISKCON is extremely important, as they are the only ones to balance-out the GBC's guru nonsense. Unity of ritviks and GBCs forms a promising ground for future guru-disciple systems in ISKCON. Of course, before that happens, many, on both sides, will have to deal with their overly expanded false egos.
In the end, I strongly feel, that relationship between guru and disciple cannot be legislated and institutionalized. In is deep internal path, and although absolute, it projects itself relatively according to advancement of each guru and disciple. Each person has his own needs, and Krsna provides what is lacking, and protects what is achieved. What can repression accomplish in this area? As they say, you can lead the horse to water, but you cannot force him to drink.
We get all kinds of good guidance from all devotees, but in the end we need to make decision. And due to our conditioning, it will quite possibly be a decision, that will eventually be proven as wrong, or at best not the optimal one. So we learn, step by step, choice by choice. Is there a better way? Yes, to hear and act. Will we take that way, always? Probably not.
I learn to respect all devotees for their endeavour, and this is struggle enough in itself. I really don't need no institutional-authorities-on-steroids telling me what to think and what to feel, picking my friends and my enemies for me. -
Concluding words from CC; "One must take advantage of the Vani, not the Vaphu". Also: " He reasons ill who tells that Vaisnava's die, when thou art living still in sound! The Vaisnava dies to live, and living try to spread the Holy Name around!" Bhaktivinoda Thakura
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