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    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeOct 29th 2009
     
    Satana Gosvami?

    Srila Prabhupada's proxy initiation was meant for his manifest presence, as a logistic solution. After his tirobhava it becomes bogus (so far without pramana and precedence in genuine sampradayas).

    Misraji, didn't we put this ritvik stuff on ice several times here? It refuses to disappear.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeOct 29th 2009
     
    Yeah and he made this unusual innovation so confusing... did not put in his words and did not ensure it is implemented, did not mention it to his Godbrothers and gave the 'envious' godbrothers an advantage to initiate while there is no diksa-gurus in ISKCON and never will be... does not make it for me, knowing how well he enshrined every single innovation he did.
  1.  
    >I am sorry that devamrita maharaja is unable to envoke much enthusiasm within myself and my godbrothers.
    >.Are you part of devamrita's vegan movment......?

    Srigovinda prabhu, what is your problem with devamrita swami? Can you please stop this blasphamy?
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeOct 29th 2009
     
    Sri Govinda Prabhu, imho you should report all this to the GBC Body.
  2.  
    dweller-in-peace: Srigovinda prabhu, what is your problem with devamrita swami? Can you please stop this blasphamy?
    A lot of people have a problem with him, myself included. I knew him very well even 30 years ago. I could tell you all kinds of stories from the time he worked for Harikesa and later for Kirtanananda. Not many devotees who knew him then have a good opinion about him. I hope he has changed and matured since then, but I doubt it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorPandu das
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    Kula-pavana: Nobody stopped SP from initiating his own disciples, not even his supposedly 'envious Godbrothers', but somehow he is stopping his own disciples?
    Instead of making unrelated comparisons, why can't you just accept what Srila Prabhupada said he wanted for after his disappearnce? "I shall recommend some of you to act as Officiating-Acaryas... Rtvik. Yes."

    VEDA: Srila Prabhupada's proxy initiation was meant for his manifest presence, as a logistic solution. After his tirobhava it becomes bogus (so far without pramana and precedence in genuine sampradayas).
    Misraji, didn't we put this ritvik stuff on ice several times here? It refuses to disappear.
    As I recall, last time we talked about this, you provided three statements from sastra trying to contradict Srila Prabhupada's order for tirobhava initiations; but two of them just made me wonder why you presented them, and the other was a one line anecdote you wanted to use to speculate on the existence of a rule and then speculate on the application of the rule. I find it noteworthy that when "because I said so" doesn't fly, the anti-rtviks always want to stop the discussion.

    sri_govinda_das:I am indeed sorry for you Pandu das, his divine grace Srila Prabhupada has left his physical body ......he is our ''siksa'' guru now.
    He seems to me more like a figurehead in ISKCON, the bait to get aspiring devotees on the hook.
    Also you did not answer wether you intend to submit to the authority of ISKCON.....or just start a new society.
    I guess I didn't see that one. I don't claim to be an acarya. I'm just trying to follow Srila Prabhupada's teachings as much as I am able. I tried submitting to ISKCON's authority, but have been discouraged by it too many times. Over the years I've noticed that associating with ISKCON devotees has consistently drained my faith and enthusiasm, which improve when I am apart; but I'm still trying to find what inspiration I can from ISKCON devotees while rejecting what is detrimental to my enthusiasm for Krishna consciousness. I'm also getting some association from Srila Prabhupada's followers outside of ISKCON, which is really nice.
  3.  
    Pandu das:
    Kula-pavana: Nobody stopped SP from initiating his own disciples, not even his supposedly 'envious Godbrothers', but somehow he is stopping his own disciples?
    Instead of making unrelated comparisons, why can't you just accept what Srila Prabhupada said he wanted for after his disappearnce? "I shall recommend some of you to act as Officiating-Acaryas... Rtvik. Yes."

    I believe the comparison is very related. SP made a lot of statements regarding his disciples becoming gurus over the years, including those in his books, which - by his own standard - are far more relevant than anything he said in private conversations. An acharya is not free to do whatever he likes - he follows in the footsteps of his spiritual master and previous acharyas. What was good enough for him is also good enough for his disciples.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009 edited
     
    I only blame our overemphasis on diksa in the fact that ritiks are trying to push for this post samadhi theory. Overemphasis on it is painful and will be painful. Someone give me a date when BSST got diksa? Or do we celebrate the date BVT got his diksa? Do you know who is the diksa guru of Krisna dasa Kaviraja Goswami?
    • CommentAuthorKula-pavana
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009 edited
     
    ccd: Someone give me a date when BSST got diksa? Or do we celebrate the date BVT got his diksa? Do you know who is the diksa guru of Krisna dasa Kaviraja Goswami?
    But we will know for sure that for the next 10,000 years everyone will get their diksa from Srila Prabhupada! ;)
    •  
      CommentAuthorPandu das
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009 edited
     
    ccd:I only blame our overemphasis on diksa in the fact that ritiks are trying to push for this post samadhi theory.
    This may be true to some degree. Perhaps Srila Prabhpuada understood this tendency and ordered "Officiating-Acaryas... Rtvik. Yes." to help stop it. I agree that siksa is far more important, but what I've found in ISKCON is that devotees primarily take the siksa of their diksa guru who sometimes preaches contrary to Srila Prabhupada. Thus we have devotees accepting instruction from gurus like Hrdayananda das Gosvami(?) who says Srila Prabhupada was sexist, racist, materially conditioned, and wrong on many subjects. He says we should not wear tilak, sikha, etc., and sets that example while he goes around getting his picture taken hugging young ladies. There are also disciples worshipping their guru Satsvarupa das Gosvami(?) who is a "retired sannyasi" after confessing to having obsessed lustfully over one of his female disciples for more than 2 decades and eventually trying to have sex with her.

    On one hand I'm told we can't have tirobhava rtvik initiations because it's not a part of our tradition (although no one has ever shown me where Srila Prabhupada said that), but on the other hand having a retired sannyasi guru is just fine. Folks can't just make up the rules as we go along and expect everyone to be ok with it!
  4.  
    >sri_govinda_das: I am indeed sorry for you Pandu das, his divine grace Srila Prabhupada has left his physical body .....

    Why do you cling so much to physical body? So many of Srila Prabhupada's disciples never met him personally, many of them got initiation by a letter, some got initiation by a tape. Srila Prabhupada has inspired many more people to become devotees after leaving his physical body then when he was in physical body.
  5.  
    >ccd: Yeah and he made this unusual innovation so confusing.

    Why would you blame Srila Prabhupada for this confusion. Recently, I read that there are many conversation tapes missing from the final days of Srila Prabhupada's lila where he might have elaborated much more on diksa system after his departure from this planet. So who has created confusion still remains a mystery.
  6.  
    >VEDA: Misraji, didn't we put this ritvik stuff on ice several times here? It refuses to disappear.

    Why are you afraid to talk about it? The more you will avoid it, more it will haunt you.Because our leaders are trying to avoid it, it keeps haunting our society all the time. Better will be that all the parties talk about it in detail with full seriousness and be finished with it forever. imho, trying to avoid it, is wrong approach towards it.
  7.  
    Pandu das: On one hand I'm told we can't have tirobhava rtvik initiations because it's not a part of our tradition (although no one has ever shown me where Srila Prabhupada said that), but on the other hand having a retired sannyasi guru is just fine. Folks can't just make up the rules as we go along and expect everyone to be ok with it!
    One type of nonse ('zonal acharya' concoction and general misbehavior of people Srila Prabhupada put in charge) created a different type of nonsense (ritvikvada) as in 'action and reaction'. Two wrongs do not make a right. You are correct, concocting new rules which fly in the face of the laws of our sampradaya breeds protest from devotees who have not lost their sense. Hridayananda is a social activist, not a GV sannyasi, but that does not make the ritvikvada a solution.
    Thankful People: VEDA
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    I wonder if we even include those who were initiated by Siddhasvarupa as direct diksa disciples of Prabhupada. I find it is the other obvious route, make an exclusive circle based on diksa, in you joined in autumn of 1977 - bed luck... what to speak of 1978. But come on people, even when Prabhupada was here, you had to humbly serve his representatives, get trained by them, do menial service, accept instructions from them, be it your sankirtan leader or a TP. That was the way, only that the same people should have all be doing initiations (as a side effect). Not that now we have management authority and gurus in two different rooms, ridiculous. All Prabhupada disciples have the right to preach, make devotees, train them and (as a side effect of it) initiate.
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    > anti-rtviks always want to stop the discussion.

    There's no Vedic discussion without pramana. What you quote can be easier explained as the result of SP's mishearing, as I already mentioned.

    > on the other hand having a retired sannyasi guru is just fine.

    Says who? It's not fine but unfortunate. Yet still much better than to become an aparadhi by following ritvikism.

    > Why are you afraid to talk about it?

    It's the fear of aparadha by attributing the creation of apasampradaya to SP.

    > our leaders are trying to avoid it

    No, they are or should be done with it, as per GBC resolution.
  8.  
    > on the other hand having a retired sannyasi guru is just fine.
    Says who? It's not fine but unfortunate. Yet still much better than to become an aparadhi by following ritvikism.
    >It's the fear of aparadha by attributing the creation of apasampradaya to SP.

    Retired sanyasi is modern equivalent of a Dari sanyasi ( mentioned in chaitanya charitamrita). Only difference is that a dari sanyasi does everything openly whereas retired sanyasi hides behind saffron robes and does his thing secretly. According to SP, dari sanyasi is apasampradaya. By creating this new category of retired sanyasi or dari sanyasi whatever you call it, ISKCON is already an apasampradaya and you and me, we all are part of it. So don't be too much afraid about the creation of apasampradaya. We already are an apasampradaya.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    sri_govinda_das:Dear ccd, the disciples were actually siddhaswarupa's personal disciples ....not srila Prabhupada's.
    I remember talking with Mahamaya when she was making the database, it was not that clearcut - there was a date put on it...
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    VEDA:> anti-rtviks always want to stop the discussion. There's no Vedic discussion without pramana. What you quote can be easier explained as the result of SP's mishearing, as I already mentioned.
    I think that is the scariest part of the whole thing, we just forget that we should speek sastra and base everything on pramana. It really scares me the most about modern speakers and various oppinions and nonsense resolutions flying around. Really really scary, ritivikvada is just one of them.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    The conclusion is that yes you need to take initiation, there is no need of formal diksa from Prabhupada to be his disciple.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    However ritiviks are not disciples of Prabhupada. Nor are all people who took harinama-diksa from Prabhupada. Being trained by your guru is more important then diksa, but accepting a spiritual master is not a matter of an option. Just like being humble is not an option, but you can not force it on anyone. One need to be humble to accept a guru, and it is a training in humility "you are a fool". Not that you accept a guru who is great and the reason, well I have the greatest guru... lets put down anyone else.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    HOW MUCH you actually accept a guru? How much you actually accept Prabhupada? Do you really...
    •  
      CommentAuthorPandu das
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009 edited
     
    ccd:All Prabhupada disciples have the right to preach, make devotees, train them and (as a side effect of it) initiate.
    So is this how the conversation went?

    Satsvarupa: ...Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you're no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.
    CCD: Yes. All my disciples have the right to preach, make devotees, train them and (as a side effect of it) initiate.

    I can go with the "CCD uvaca"version or with what Srila Prabhupada said, "I shall recommend some of you to act as Officiating-Acaryas... Rtvik. Yes." How to decide? I chant Hare Krishna not because of CCD uvaca, not Kula Pavana, not Veda uvaca, but because of Srila Prabhupada and only Srila Prabhupada. I think I know who to believe.

    Kula Pavana thinks Srila Prabhupada's answer was nonsense. Veda says Srila Prabhupada's answer is aparadha and wants me reported to the GBC and presumably banned from ISKCON for believing "Officiating Acaryas... Rtvik. Yes."

    CCD says diksa is not very important, but it's apparently important enough that some ISKCON leaders and followers would rather I go away than accept Srila Prabhupada's version of tirobhava initiation via "Officiating Acaryas... Rtvik. Yes.," so that he can be my diksa guru.

    I'm sorry to disappoint you guys, but I trust Srila Prabhupada and am not interested in your telling me what you think his limitations are, in contradiction with what he said. Hare Krishna.
    •  
      CommentAuthorPandu das
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    ccd:However ritiviks are not disciples of Prabhupada. Nor are all people who took harinama-diksa from Prabhupada. Being trained by your guru is more important then diksa, but accepting a spiritual master is not a matter of an option. Just like being humble is not an option, but you can not force it on anyone. One need to be humble to accept a guru, and it is a training in humility "you are a fool". Not that you accept a guru who is great and the reason, well I have the greatest guru... lets put down anyone else.
    You're a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, correct? How much did he train you?

    Although I had a harinam initiation ceremony with Bhaktimarga Swami, he's given me almost no training. When I asked him for tapes, books, etc., he said to just take what Srila Prabhupada has given. At that time, I was listening to Srila Prabhupada's lectures normally a few hours a day and still do. So when an ISKCON authority asks me who is my guru, what name should I give?
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    Pandu das:
    ccd:So when an ISKCON authority asks me who is my guru, what name should I give?
    I trust to become a disciple is a very very high qualification, I aspire for it. Actually you are not obliged to tell anyone who is your guru, but if someone asks you may as well tell the truth. I find that the only way I can become his disciple is by being a servant of his servant, I trust that would have been the situation if I joined in 75, 74, or 77. I am happy you realized that diksa is not very important, but it does not mean you should not take it. One also should not disrespect devotees, I guess that is the key. Ritiviks are very disrespectful of quite a few guys, while a viasnava will give respect even to an ant. I feel respect to all disciples and even apparent disciples of Prabhupada, I particularly like devotees he himself trusted, while I know everyone has his or her limitations. I guess your limitation is that diksa was not important for you, but became important? Or is it you want to be a 'direct' disciple?
  9.  
    Pandu das: Kula Pavana thinks Srila Prabhupada's answer was nonsense.
    No, I think the ritvik understanding of that answer is nonsense.
  10.  
    >How can the'' ritvik vada '' exist and be taken seriously when i have not met any ''ritvik''s in the last 30 years of my devotional service,except Pandu das....

    You seem to be a serious devotee and Krsna fullfils all the desires of his devotees. Soon you might have a ritvik temple in your country, its spreading really fast at least in India and US.
  11.  
    >So they attempt to step on their heads,''the authentic Prabhupada disciples''.....to take their position artificially without any devotional credit..like theives in the night.

    Just wait a little more and see, they might take not only the position but may be all the ISKCON might become ritvik.
  12.  
    >Only some 40% of gbc really wants it, you need to wait +=)

    sri_govinda_prabhu, did you read the statistics, 40% gbc want it, this is way beyond what I expected and you never heard about it in your 30 years, that's real ignorance, :-)
  13.  
    >all the sankirtan devotees i was trained up by not one had even heard such nonsense....must indeed be from the USA....

    You are right, ISKCON runs from USA not from NZ.
  14.  
    >How can the'' ritvik vada '' exist and be taken seriously when i have not met any ''ritvik''s in the last 30 years of my devotional service,except Pandu das....CCD hit on >it these poor souls are existing outside the mercy of srila PRABHUPADA...They want sadly to be envious of srila Prabhupada's disciples who are in fact worshipable >for myself....They are crooked in their sad vision because they are meant to be crushed by mayadevi whose duty it is to purify this movement.Hence will suffer the >lack of genuine devotee association and gradually fade away like the haribols.We are meant to follow the morning programs,mangal arti,guru puja bhagavatam class >ect...this ''rtvik apa-sampradaya'' is just nonsense and would get ripped apart if you had good a devotee's around....however these poor souls have commited offence >to their guru's and will pay severely.....May my siksa guru's allow these sad devotees to be allowed to be rectified from their offences and envy.....your servant sri >govinda das

    >This is extremely arrogant and foolish on their behalf because i have met most of the senior devotees in our movement not one was a ritvik-deviant.So how envious >and pathetic.....all the sankirtan devotees i was trained up by not one had even heard such nonsense....must indeed be from the USA.....Concot-it -if they -can >-desh.....out of pure envy.....i predict it with dissolve after the few envious godbrothers have departed.....like the other cults.Srila PRABHUPADA only produced fools >who were unable to understand any thing he said,according to this understanding and Pandu's offensive veiw.......arrogance at its sad pathetic worse.

    sri_govinda_prabhu, it means that the seed of ritvikism has been planted in your heart and you are initiated into ritvikism. Ritviks are cruel, they will tell you all the naked truth, will cut all the crap without any kind of anesthesia, so in the beginning people scream, but this all settles down in due course of time. Just make sure that sravanam and kirtanam is going on nicely and Lord Paramatma will guide you from within the heart.

    With best wishes for your spiritual life.
    •  
      CommentAuthorPandu das
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    Kula-pavana:
    Pandu das: Kula Pavana thinks Srila Prabhupada's answer was nonsense.
    No, I think the ritvik understanding of that answer is nonsense.
    The rtvik understanding of "PRABHUPADA: Rtvik. Yes."???
    •  
      CommentAuthorPandu das
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009 edited
     
    ccd:
    Pandu das:So when an ISKCON authority asks me who is my guru, what name should I give?
    I trust to become a disciple is a very very high qualification, I aspire for it. Actually you are not obliged to tell anyone who is your guru, but if someone asks you may as well tell the truth. I find that the only way I can become his disciple is by being a servant of his servant, I trust that would have been the situation if I joined in 75, 74, or 77. I am happy you realized that diksa is not very important, but it does not mean you should not take it. One also should not disrespect devotees, I guess that is the key. Ritiviks are very disrespectful of quite a few guys, while a viasnava will give respect even to an ant. I feel respect to all disciples and even apparent disciples of Prabhupada, I particularly like devotees he himself trusted, while I know everyone has his or her limitations. I guess your limitation is that diksa was not important for you, but became important? Or is it you want to be a 'direct' disciple?
    Yes, servant of his servant, but when it's on tape that he ordered "Rtvik. Yes." are those who reject it his servants? I would say perhaps in other ways, like if they're chanting Hare Krishna, but this matter needs to be set straight.

    I do want to take diksa, but I think my supposed harinam initiation was a mistake. I was trying hard to do everything right, but not finding much pleasure in chanting Hare Krishna, not like I know is there. I thought maybe it's because I needed initiation, and some disciples of Srila Prabhupada whom I was associating with (a husband and wife) told me that it didn't really matter who gave me initiation. Perhaps I should have considered that they weren't following strictly, for example eating yogurt with gelatin and drinking coffee, but I followed their advice. However, my initiation didn't help at all. About a year later, my guru severely disappointed me, leaving me very depressed and discouraged. After I recovered (two years later) I tried accepting him again, but he still could not inspire me. Then I was witness to a debate for-and-against the rtvik view, and thought the rtviks did better than their opponents. Still I reserved judgement, but another year later I heard my local GBC speaking on behalf of the NA GBC say twice that the rtviks were "enemies of ISKCON," and I decided I could not accept someone as my enemy unless I understood their position. So I read up on the issue and found that their arguments were very strong.

    I try not to disrespect devotees, but mostly I want Srila Prabhupada's teachings and orders to be upheld. When we have gurus acting contrary to Srila Prabhupada's teachings, even criticizing him, then devotees have to speak up. I may have to suffer for finding fault with devotees, but for serving Srila Prabhupada by helping to preserve his instructions, it's worth it. There is already a conflict and I want to be on Srila Prabhupada's side. I know I'm not a great follower, but at least I want his teachings preserved, and it looks to me that a lot of those who are posing as gurus are setting a bad example. I agree to respect an ant, but if an ant were preaching that (for example) devotees should not wear tilak, then I would have to argue. It doesn't mean I don't respect devotees. You and I argue a lot, but if we met I would be delighted to take the dust of you feet on my head and offer you some menial service; but still I would argue on this topic because I can't just accept something when I believe something else.

    The reason I want to be initiated by Srila Prabhupada is because he is the only one (besides Krishna) who attracted me to aspiring for Krishna consciousness, he is the only one who keeps me attracted, and I believe that he wanted to continue giving initiations. Therefore it is natural for me to want him as my guru, not a substitute whom I do not feel connected, and I consider it a service to him.
  15.  
    >So find a siksa guru ,but you must submit to his mood and superior understandings...

    Its already found i.e. Srila Prabhupada. What's wrong with Srila Prabhupada? Why do you think SP is dead and one can not have a relationship with him? If your feelings, your juices don't flow towards Srila Prabhupada(maybe they flow towards someone else, no problem with that), why would you make a yardstick of your experience and measure all other devotees with that?
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2009
     
    > By creating this new category of retired sanyasi or dari sanyasi whatever you call it, ISKCON is already an apasampradaya and you and me, we all are part of it. So don't be too much afraid about the creation of apasampradaya. We already are an apasampradaya.

    This comparison is far-fetched. Who are and where are kept these women of our 'retired sannyasis'? So far I've heard here only of emotional falldowns (SDG) and embracing ladies (HDG).
    Your logic is false. Two wrongs are definitely worse than one.
    We'd be apasampradaya if this would be officially allowed. But it isn't.

    > You seem to be a serious devotee and Krsna fullfils all the desires of his devotees. Soon you might have a ritvik temple in your country, its spreading really fast at least in India and US.

    Interestingly, not in Europe, afaik. Are Europeans more intelligent? We have one active guy in CZ (a Krsnakant-vadi; we don't have other groups here so far) and he's a sorry character and a laughinstock for those who remember him from ISKCON. He's very much like a Jehova's Witness. One devotee aptly called him and his handful of aides 'Prabhupada's Witnesses'. The proverbial wolves in sheep's clothing.

    > Why do you think SP is dead and one can not have a relationship with him?

    SP is not dead, this is another favorite ritvik misintepretation. He's aprakata, unmanifest to us, so the relationship can be thru siksa. Diksa is bogus in this case. Is it too difficult to grasp...?
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2009
     
    > Veda says Srila Prabhupada's answer is aparadha and wants me reported to the GBC and presumably banned from ISKCON for believing "Officiating Acaryas... Rtvik. Yes."

    Again you're misinterpreting me. I said Prabhupada's answer is most probably the result of mishearing. Did it occur to you?
    Otherwise he'd refute all his previous teachings. Clear?
    The rest is your speculation, I never suggested that. You may believe whatever out of context stuff you love but don't call it Vaisnava siddhanta and don't ascribe it to Prabhupada.

    > Although I had a harinam initiation ceremony with Bhaktimarga Swami, he's given me almost no training.

    You didn't insist on it enough. It's his duty. Lectures are the minimum and you could get them from his other disciples.

    > So I read up on the issue and found that their arguments were very strong.

    So why you didn't present them so far? Beats me.

    > There is already a conflict and I want to be on Srila Prabhupada's side. I know I'm not a great follower, but at least I want his teachings preserved,

    You're against him without your realizing it. Quote from his teachings and prove ritvikism if you can. So far you didn't so you probably can't.

    Your reasoning is about fallen and insufficiently acting gurus like yours, as if this is the reason to embrace apasiddhanta. No logic whatsoever.
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2009
     
    Sri Govinda Prabhu, this is a very illustrative case. Thanks. Whoever has ears to listen...
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2009
     
    VEDA: > Although I had a harinam initiation ceremony with Bhaktimarga Swami, he's given me almost no training.
    >You didn't insist on it enough. It's his duty. Lectures are the minimum and you could get them from his other disciples.
    I do not think you know Bhaktimarga swami well enough to know that for sure do you Veda? Pandu prabhu's is a personal case, I trust he is sincere, I trust he wants to be a Prabhupada man. But it is wrong to reject a guru or step over his head to do that. In fact even when Prabhupada was physically present, you would not normally approach him directly, but through the leaders he had. Prabhupada was very merciful to his leaders, for example when Brahmananda Swami had a fall in 1976 he forgave him, and let him remain a 'retired' sannyasi', actually just a sannyasi, but he was not involved in top level management after that. He had a forgiving nature, I am sure Bhaktimarga Swami has a forgiving nature too, I do not even think that he rejects you. You just have to be grateful to him, and yes establish your relationship with Prabhupada. Just stop putting down everyone and everything if it is not your position to do it, and please understand that there is more to the eye then just your own interpretation of Prabhupada's words, there is a whole history of diksa since BSST disappearance, that is something Prabhupada was addressing. He wanted it to be up to Krishna, but without appointing one successor, he clearly wanted all his disciples to become gurus and initiate. ysccd
  16.  
    >by the way noW he openly criticises Iskcon and his previous SENIOR devotees who gave him shelter for thirty odd years.
    >Who recently commented to me that his guru was the ''best of a bad bunch

    sri_govind_prabhu, a while ago, you were criticising Devamrita Swami and now you are demonizing this poor guy, who is not here even to defend himself, can't even say one word to clarify his position. We don't know the full story of this devotee, we know only your version. Even the karmi courts, give a fair trial to criminals and they are allowed to say something in their defense. But in this case, there is nothing like that.
  17.  
    >Are Europeans more intelligent?

    Definitely intelligent. But better to be wise then intelligent:-)
  18.  
    >We'd be apasampradaya if this would be officially allowed. But it isn't.

    If retired sannyasa is not officially allowing this then what it is? Kindly provide your definition of retired sanyasa and its purpose.
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2009
     
    > I do not think you know Bhaktimarga swami well enough to know that for sure do you Veda?

    I don't know him at all, just reacting on what is written here.

    Retired sannyasi is explained above (the case of Brahmananda Swami). I haven't seen such definition in sastra.
  19.  
    >One devotee aptly called him and his handful of aides 'Prabhupada's Witnesses'. The proverbial wolves in sheep's clothing.

    I really don't understand what makes you think that you are more dear to Srila Prabhupada then these devotees.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2009
     
    GBC had invented the retired sannyasi phrase. It is clearly a mistake, Prabhupada had a number of sannyasi disciples who could not maintain the vows, it is ironic that they invented it for the one who could and would even in the face of three seduction attempts by a female therapist, and later blackmail forcing him to get married, because of the emotional attachment. Prabhupada at no point rejected a sannyasi who had a fall down. In his practical dealings he knew well how hard it is for a Westerner to be a sannyasi, he kept Brahmananda Swami when he had an actual (not subtle) fall with a girl. In fact Prabhupada knew a lot more then you think about his disciples and kept encouraging them in their spiritual life. In the end he actually stopped giving sannyas, I am yet to get a confirmation on that, but clearly since end of 1976 he did not want it anymore for devotees to take. He even mentions it in his morning walk in 1977.

    Difficulty is that we do not understand the sanskrit roots of things and we do not understand the context of what Prabhupada was doing, we argue about words. It is superficial unless you know the context.

    For example from this morning walk when the issue of the fall of the sannyasi comes:

    Prabhupada: Yes. This is not prayascitta. This is exemplary punishment. He was not liable to be punished, but they played that "This is the.... This should be done."
    Guru-krpa: He did not kill himself immediately. He waited for a year.
    Prabhupada: He was waiting if Caitanya Mahaprabhu would accept him again. But when he saw that Caitanya Mahaprabhu is not so lenient, he committed suicide. Vajrad api katora. Harder than the thunderbolt and softer than the rose. This is the position.
    Tamala Krsna: But, Prabhupada, if you were as strict as.... If you were that strict...
    Prabhupada: No, I am not Caitanya Prabhu. I am not.... Why you are comparing me? I am an ordinary man.
    Guru-krpa: So in ISKCON, if someone falls down, it means that he should commit suicide?
    Prabhupada: No.
    Gurudasa: We wouldn't have much of a movement, then.
    Pusta Krsna: We're too attached to our bodies anyway, Srila Prabhupada.

    Tamal challenges Prabhupada "But, Prabhupada, if you were as strict as.... If you were that strict." -- he clearly refers to quite a few instances where Prabhupada was not strict. The fact is that Prabhupada is magnanimous to the highest degree.

    But then Prabhupada makes sure his disciples WILL not fall:


    Guru-krpa: So in ISKCON, if someone falls down, it means that he should commit suicide?
    Prabhupada: No.
    Gurudasa: We wouldn't have much of a movement, then.
    Pusta Krsna: We're too attached to our bodies anyway, Srila Prabhupada.
    Prabhupada: No, no, if he falls down, that is automatically suicide. If he falls down, that means it is suicide. He got the chance. If he falls down, that is suicide.
    Guru-krpa: Spiritual suicide.
    Prabhupada: Spiritual suicide. If one gets the chance of becoming eligible for going back to home, back to Godhead, and if he commits mistake and it is stopped, is it not suicide?
    Guru-krpa: You once gave the example, Srila Prabhupada, of taking your plane off the ground and then bringing it back to land again.
    Prabhupada: Eh?
    Guru-krpa: You once gave the example that you take your plane to a destination, and you have to turn around and come back and start all over again, take off again.
    Prabhupada: There are so many. Drdha-vrata. Bhajante mam drdha-vrata. So we should be very strong-minded and continue our devotional service very strongly.

    Again you should take in a context. Some suggest that Visnujana Swami was referring to his own fall in this conversation. These are his last words to Prabhupada... but it is MUCH more likely that he wanted to know what was prabhupada thinking about RDTSKP methods of making brahmacaris join. It was one of them - tell brahmacaris that if you talk to matajis because they live in the temple, they are pouring water on their devotional cripper. Why was it relevant to Visnujana Swami? Well it was very relevant, because he trusted TKGs methods of getting more man for some year, and now he had a huge rebellion on his hands. He was faced with ALL temple presidents demanding that they stop his party. TKG was sent to China... and Visnujana Swami was... nobody knows that bit.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2009 edited
     
    Nrsingha: He was age 7 when SP left the planet! Ysvt.
    You are not saying it is against the sastra to take sannyas at the age of seven? But you seem to put down a grand-disciple of Prabhupada, well.. Do you think direct sannyas disciples of BSST are better then those who took sannyas from his followers? Lets look at the beginning of the same conversation (last words of Visnujana) of march 11, 1976 below: [ edited ]
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2009
     
    Now if you look at the start of the conversation about it you will see:

    Visnujana: Srila Prabhupada, how did Chota Haridasa achieve perfection by killing himself after apparently pouring water on his devotional creeper by talking to a woman?

    Prabhupada: His instance was that even an associate of Caitanya Mahaprabhu can fall down. And if one falls down, his punishment is that, suicide. There is no other punishment. He must commit suicide. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's instruc.... Otherwise he is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's personal servant. He cannot fall down. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu showed this instance that "Even one is My personal servant, he can fall down." And if anyone by any cause he falls down, his punishment is he must commit suicide. This is instruction.

    Tamala Krsna: Very strict.

    Prabhupada: Oh, yes. "You have fallen down? You must commit suicide. No more My association."

    You can take the words of srila prabhupada out of context. And people do, but they do not represent Prabhupada. It seems that dear sri_govinda_das did just that and took it out of context and without understanding the conclusion. It sounded that Prabhupada wanted Visnujana to commit suicide, but clearly he did not... what sort of disciple of Prabhupada would suggest such a thing?
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2009
     
    > I really don't understand what makes you think that you are more dear to Srila Prabhupada then these devotees.

    If I'm dear to him or not is not the topic here (red herring).

    Prabhupada hated criticism of Vaisnavas, even of the neophyte ones. But denigration is the main preaching tactic of ritviks.

    pUrvaM kRtvA tu sammAnam
    avajJAM kurute tu yaH
    vaiSNavAnAM mahI-pAla
    sAnvayo yAti saGkSayam

    "O ruler of the world, one who first respects a Vaishnava and then later insults him is vanquished along with his family." (Skanda Purana)

    "Actually," Prabhupada said, "this is a fact. One has to be blessed by a devotee to become a devotee. And he who is the servant of the servant of the servant—one hundred times removed—is not worse than one who directly serves the guru. If one thinks, 'Because I am direct servant, I am better than others,' then he is not a Vaisnava. To offer one's respects to Guru and not to his disciples, this is wrong. This is not Vaisnava. One has to be humble and try to serve all Vaisnavas—not some and not others." (Hari Sauri Dasa, A Transcendental Diary 1 - November 1975 - April 1976. TD 1-9: Sri Dhama Mayapur. January 28th, 1976.)
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2009
     
    While initiation is a formality, surrender, determination to do devotional service even if in difficulty and humility to do so without expectation of honor is important. It is exactly the fact that it is a 'position' to be directly initiated by Prabhupada in ISKCON that makes ritivik argument strong. There is no 'position' in being directly initiated by SP, it is a demanding qualification. If you are up to it you can meet that qualification, and humility in accepting diksa from his follower is one of the elements of establishing that relationship.

    thank you Nrsimha about your kind words about my initiating guru, you were always kind to him. I do find that my best and most solid realizations about Srila Prabhupada are due to his books and association. I honestly did not have it before meeting him, in my own gbc zone they would discourage every personal touch with Srila Prabhupada for some reason, it was some other 'pada' who was the center. But Prabhupada should be the center of our lives, can you do it without constantly putting down devotees he personally trained? That is probably the qualification I need to become his disciple in a proper sense of this word.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2009 edited
     
    I actually mean devotees who were actually trained by Prabhupada. I find that many devotees they try to somehow project the image that they 'know' what Prabhupada said or did/ but actually seriously distort the presentation. I find it the worst and most gregarious offense against Prabhupada. We are completely dependent on devotees in how we related to Prabhupada, we are completely formed by association. If someone has an agenda (usually from the training outside of ISKCON, as the case be by training to Gaudiya math standards or some other impersonalists' sadhu's training) and is using a position of being a direct disciple (even if he or she met Prabhupada like two times and never spoke with him) or becoming a sannyasi to push that agenda, it is something I am weary about. On the opposite spectrum are the devotees like Tivikrama Swami or Kavicandra Maharaja, who would have an honest desire to represent Prabhupada as he is and as he was. I really admire it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2009
     
    >]The acarya’s words can stand on their own, due to their spiritual advancement. Bhaktivinoda Thakur has some good quotes from Sri Tattra Sutram. He states:) --->

    I find it amusing how far it goes, ironic. You are quoting words of an acharya to confirm that that because Prabhupada is an acharya he is not representing scriptures.

    In doing this you think 1) That Bhaktivinoda quotes some sastra 2) You think that he is doing to confirm that scripture is inferior to the words of an acharya.

    This completely false, while I blame it on the cut and paste.

    The fact is that Bhaktivinda Thakura himself WROTE the Sri Tattva Surtas. Someone else made a long hand english interpretation of it and you quoted it as if it not words of Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

    In doing so you also misses the point of what Srila Thakura Bhaktivinoda is saying and why he is saying it; lets look at the actual quote:

    39 sastramaksamesu valiyo vivekinam naitattanmula prapteh

    Rules and regulations are for regulating the ignorant conditioned souls; those who have attained their constitutional awareness are not limited by such conditions.

    43. bhakteyna sastram tadvidherjnanavirodhitvat

    Unnalloyed devotees of Sri Krsna are not to be limited by the conditions of scriptural rules because their activities are based on spontaneous attachment which is transcendental to rules and regulations.

    In doing that you suggest that we MUST move past rules and regulations and introduce every single neophyte to the level of spontaneous devotion, bypassing all the key angas of that process as outlined by Sri Rupa Goswami in BRS, However that is contrary to both the mood of Prabhupada, his emphasis and contrary to the logic of the sutra, that simply states that a paramahamsa vaisnava is not bound by the rules of the scriptures. We know that, but he would not tell us not to follow the sastra as we are not at that level.

    Now I do not want to be argumentative, but you (or your cut and paste guru) is obviously mistaken to use this quote in this context. In fact the sutra according to his own explanation is about not following rules of Varnasrama dharma for a Vaisnava who is above it.
    See a bit more of TS with commentary:

    bhakte na sastram tad-vidher jnanavirodhitvat

    bhakte-for a devotee of the Lord; na-not; sastram-scripture; tad-vidheh-of those rules; jnana-transcendental knowledge; avirodhitvat-because of not contradicting.

    The rules of these scriptures do not apply to a devotee of the Lord, for an enlightened devotee never acts against the spiritual truth.

    Commentary by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

    After explaining that they who are enlightened with transcendental knowledge are free from the rules of scripture, the author of the sutras now affirms that the devotees are especially free from these rules. The duties and prohibitions of scripture do not apply to a person who is pure in heart, renounced, filled with transcendental knowledge and engaged in devotional service. This is so because the devotee's intent engagement in devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead does not in any way oppose the rules and regulations ordained by the scriptures. Here is the meaning: One attains the highest goal of life by following the rules and regulations of devotional service, not by following the rules and regulations of ordinary, non-devotional, materialistic piety. In the Sruti-sastra it is said:

    kim aham punyam nakaravam kim aham papam akaravam tatra kah sosakah ko mohah

    " `Why should I not perform pious deeds? Why should I sin?' For one who thinks in this way where is calamity? Where is illusion?"

    In Bhagavad-gita (2.52), the Supreme Personality of Godhead explains:

    yada te moha-kalilam
    buddhir vyatitarisyati
    tada gantasi nirvedam
    srotavyasya srutasya ca

    "When your intelligence has passed out of the dense forest of delusion, you shall become indifferent to all that has been heard and all that is to be heard."*

    In the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.292-293) it is said:

    natra sastram na yuktim ca
    tal-lobhotpatti-laksanam
    vaidha-bhakty-adhikari tu
    bhavavirbhavanavadhi

    atra sastram tatha tarkam
    anukulam apeksate

    "Therefore, in the beginning, everyone should strictly follow the regulative principles of devotional service, according to the injunctions of the scriptures and the spiritual master. Only after the stage of liberation from material contamination can one actually aspire to follow in the footsteps of the devotees in Vrndavana."*
 
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