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Kula-pavana:ritvik shmitvik... initiation means, that there is volountary acceptance on BOTH sides. you simply can not receive diksa from Prabhupada, just like you can not receive diksa from Narada Muni or Vedavyasa. guru MUST accept a disciple. Bhaktisiddhanta had to go to a great length to secure initiation from Srila Gaurakishora. You CAN NOT just take initiation from someone if they do not physically accept you as their disciple. The idea of post humous ritvik initiations clearly indicates that people have no clue what initiation (diksa) is. In the entire Vedic literature there is no example of such a thing (posthumous initiation). And those who claim that Prabhupada invented it simply bring disgrace to Srila Prabhupada.1) Srila Prabhupada formally established ritvik initiations on July 9th 1977. Before then, ritvik initiations were being conducted by Kirtanananda and Revatinandana in 1973. So where is this idea of "pre-samadhi ritvik initiations" mentioned in our Vedic literature? Would Kula-pavana criticise SP for going against the Vedic system by introducing ritvik initiations in the first place? 2) You can't accept initiation from Naradamuni or Vedavyasa because you have to receive diksha from the CURRENT link, which is Srila Prabhupada: "in order to receive the real message of Srimad-Bhagavatam one should approach the CURRENT link, or spiritual master, in the chain of disciplic succession. After being initiated by the proper spiritual master in that chain of succession, one should engage himself in the discharge of tapasya in the execution of devotional service." (SB 2.9.7. purport). 3) Srila Prabhupada delegated his representatives for accepting disciples for initiation, as he could not and did not meet or examine every one of his disciples for the stipulated 6-12 months (see below): "In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life—illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, WE first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaisnava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master OR HIS REPRESNTATIVE for at least six months to a year." (Cc Madhya 24.330 purport)
janmastami das:kula pavana said: "You CAN NOT just take initiation from someone if they do not physically accept you as their disciple." isn't ekalavya, who accepted dhrona unilaterally as his guru, an example of the fantasy of this assertion?Yes, he is. He was a wild tribesman of low culture, and his punishment by Drona was quite instructive. Drona asked him for his thumb. He complied, and that made him only a good archer, but not an exceptional archer. In the same way you could say that a unilateral acceptance of a guru places a barrier on your further progress.
mishra:one thing is to accept Srila Prabhupada as your only guru, a personal, intimate choice that I respect as any other, another is to officially equate them as disciples duly accepted by him (phallacy).That is true. We are all taking siksa from Srila Prabhupada by reading his books and listening to his lectures, but that is not what is implied here, as the subject of the thread is formal and binding initiation (diksa).
Kula-pavana:1. Yes, pre-samadhi ritvik initiations are not part of our tradition. SP considered them to be necessary inclusion at a particular time, due to rapid expansion of ISKCON and his concentration on writing books. Just like one can eat meat when faced with starvation, the typical system of initiations was changed out of sheer necessity for the duration of the crisis. 2. SP is not a current link - he passed on to Vaikuntha. 3. see point 1. the same situation apply.1. So you are claiming that neither pre-samadhi ritvik nor post-samadhi ritvik are part of our tradition. So you are saying SP is un-Vedic? 2. In the Bhagavad-gita As It Is introduction, SP lists himself as the current link in the list of the Disciplic Succession (no. 32, I think). Who would you suggest appears as no. 33? 3. Since SP's books are meant to last 10,000 years, unless you are daring enough to change SP's words in the Bhagavad-gita and the Cc, then SP remains the current link; and his use of representatives to vet and initiate disciples on his behalf remains.
VEDA:> So the system of initiation without personal presence of the guru is not something new. But it was discontinued after Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's disappearance.You're joking, aren't you?! Srila Prabhupada, who is guru after Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's disappearance, initiated thousands of disciples without ever having met them- it's called the RITVIK system!
jay: 1. So you are claiming that neither pre-samadhi ritvik nor post-samadhi ritvik are part of our tradition. So you are saying SP is un-Vedic? 2. In the Bhagavad-gita As It Is introduction, SP lists himself as the current link in the list of the Disciplic Succession (no. 32, I think). Who would you suggest appears as no. 33? 3. Since SP's books are meant to last 10,000 years, unless you are daring enough to change SP's words in the Bhagavad-gita and the Cc, then SP remains the current link; and his use of representatives to vet and initiate disciples on his behalf remains.1. What I am saying is that SP modified the tradition out of NECESSITY alone. Vedas allow non-standard means in times of great need, like eating meat when faced with starvation. Still, we know what the proper STANDARD is: vegetarian diet and initiation from a physically present guru. 2. His disciples are the current link. If one or more of them becomes a real acharya by their qualifications and work, their names will be listed in the future. THERE WERE HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS OF QUALIFIED VAISHNAVA GURUS IN OUR LINE THAT WERE NOT INCLUDED IN THAT LIST since the time of Lord Brahma. 3. Who made such a prophecy? Based on what I know it is just another ISKCON myth, born of a statement made by one of Srila Prabhupada's admirerers, and now preached like a gospel. And besides, Krsna-dvaipayana Vyasa's books are still around today, yet he is NOT the current link. His writings will be around till the end of Kali-yuga, and that is a Vedic prediction. Books do not give you diksa.
VEDA:> You're joking, aren't you?! Srila Prabhupada, who is guru after Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's disappearance, initiated thousands of disciples without ever having met them- it's called the RITVIK system! No, I'm serious. BSST never claimed to remain the current link after his disappearance, nor his disciples initiated (as ritviks) anyone as his disciple. This idea was allegedly brought us after his dissapearance, but was immediately rejected as nonsastric. Re pre samadhi diksas: SP agreed to initiate them and could reject someone he would want to reject. In post samadhi version he is not allowed to do that.Yes, SBST did not claim to be the current link after his disappearance because he authorised Srila Prabhupada to succeed him: Indian man: When did you become spiritual the leader of Krsna Consciousness? Srila Prabhupada: What is that? Brahmananda: He is asking when did you become the spiritual leader of Krsna Consciousness? Srila Prabhupada: When my Guru Maharaja ordered me. This is the guru parampara. Indian man: Did it... Srila Prabhupada: Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru. (SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75) But SP did not authorise anyone to succeed him. He set up a ritvik system, whereby he delegated acceptance of initiates to his ritvik representatives, giving them power of attorney both pre- and post-samadhi: Prabhupada: So without waiting for me, wherever you consider it is right... That will depend on discretion. Tamala Krsna: On discretion. Prabhupada: Yes. Tamala Krsna: That’s for first and second initiations. Prabhupada: Hm. (Conversation 7/7/77)
Kula-pavana: 3. Who made such a prophecy? Based on what I know it is just another ISKCON myth, born of a statement made by one of Srila Prabhupada's admirerers, and now preached like a gospel.Are you now saying Srila Prabhupada is a myth-maker?: "When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeared, He ushered in the era for the sankirtana movement. It is also said that for ten thousand years this era will continue. This means that simply by accepting the sankirtana movement and chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, the fallen souls of this Kali-yuga will be delivered. After the Battle of Kuruksetra, at which Bhagavad-gita was spoken, Kali-yuga continues for 432,000 years, of which only 5,000 years have passed. Thus there is still a balance of 427,000 years to come. Of these 427,000 years, the 10,000 years of the sankirtana movement inaugurated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu 500 years ago provide the opportunity for the fallen souls of Kali-yuga to take to the Krsna consciousness movement, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and thus be delivered from the clutches of material existence and return home, back to Godhead." (SB 8.5.23 purport)
jay: SBST did not claim to be the current link after his disappearance because he authorised Srila Prabhupada to succeed him... (...) But SP did not authorise anyone to succeed him.And where exactly is the physical proof that SBST ordered Srila Prabhupada to succeed him? The proof is only in SP words. There are no records that prove any such authorization ever took place. We accept that on faith alone. In the same fashion SP disciples may say that SP authorized them to become his successor and their disciples may accept that on faith. SBST authorized some of his disciples to accept their own disciples even while he was still in this world. And they did initiate their own disciples in his presence, including a first ever Westerner to take initiation in Gaudiya Matha. These are well known facts. Srila Prabhupada was not one of these explicitly authorized disciples. His authorization most likely came after he took sannyasa, through instructions received in a dream.
jay:No, some of his disciples are the myth-makers. The quote you posted makes no mention of SP books lasting 10,000 years or him being a current link for that period of time. THAT is the myth. Here is your quote again: "Since SP's books are meant to last 10,000 years, unless you are daring enough to change SP's words in the Bhagavad-gita and the Cc, then SP remains the current link; and his use of representatives to vet and initiate disciples on his behalf remains."Kula-pavana: 3. Who made such a prophecy? Based on what I know it is just another ISKCON myth, born of a statement made by one of Srila Prabhupada's admirerers, and now preached like a gospel.Are you now saying Srila Prabhupada is a myth-maker?:
jimmycle: Also, when SP first came to Butler, PA, he initiated my friends mother into Brahman and changed her name from one given by guru Muktananda Swami. So, then SP had already been giving initiation(s) on American soil prior to any American Iskcon disciples. This is a "fact" -- not some "fictional myth."Interesting and important information. I did not know that SP initiated someone when he first came to Butler, PA. Is that a verifiable information? What was the name of that lady?
Kula-pavana:1. Yes, pre-samadhi ritvik initiations are not part of our tradition. SP considered them to be necessary inclusion at a particular time, due to rapid expansion of ISKCON and his concentration on writing books. Just like one can eat meat when faced with starvation, the typical system of initiations was changed out of sheer necessity for the duration of the crisis. 2. SP is not a current link - he passed on to Vaikuntha. 3. see point 1. the same situation apply.
Srila Prabhupada explicitly stated his requirements for accepting disciples and established the rtvik method for having this performed without his active involvement. Indeed there is no such method established by Narada Muni or any other prior acarya to my knowledge; but to claim that the method Srila Prabhupada established is not Vedic is indisputably an offense against Srila Prabhupada.
The lack of any "moon among the stars" of Srila Prabhupada's disciples quite reasonably justifies his choice not to cancel or terminate his acceptance of disciples via the automatic rtvik method that he ordered, and to not authorize any diksa guru.
Who thinks it wise to take as one's life and soul the orders of a "guru" who is not a real acarya? It sounds like a prescription for disaster to me, kind of like what ISKCON has been experiencing for the past 30 years. The crisis will be over when a self-effulgent acarya manifests, or when the GBC surrenders to Srila Prabhupada's instructions.
hariharibol:..." If one accepts Srila Prabhupad as his guru " that's fine, but Prabhupada should accept them, this is much more important, but I undestand your point.All present Iskcon gurus are bogus and should be avoided,better to remain uninitiated and follow the proccess and reamin fixed,Lord Chaitanya will protect without a doubt.Srila Prabhupada automated the process, specifying his standards for accepting disciples, and giving the method by which initiations would take place in his absence. Prior to his mahasamadhi, disciples were connected with him via diksa without asking him, using the process he authorized. He never rescinded that process, nor did he authorize the initiation process that is currently being employed.
Giri-nayaka das: Besides, Srila Prabhupada empowered all his disciples to become Gurus, and he never said that only those, who are voted by GBC, can initiate disciples.As I understand it, he empowered his disciples to become siksa gurus by instructing them, giving them knowledge and ordering them to share that knowledge with others; however he did not authorize any of his disciples to become diksa gurus. Can anyone give convincing evidence to the contrary?
hariharibol:...All present Iskcon gurus are bogus and should be avoided..And how did you arrive at that conclusion, dear prabhu? You have met all of them and carefully examined their qualifications? Or you just accept the ritvik-babble as gospel?
rasa108:Can anyone explain why other spiritual masters give diksa initiation? For example Narayana Maharaja, who is a disciple of Srila Prabhupada's godbrother....why is this theory only applicable to Srila Prabhupada and his disciples and not others?Because this is the way of the Vedic tradition. When a guru passes on, any of his disciples who feel qualified and authorized to give diksa do so if there are people interested to become their disciples.
Giri-nayaka das:Kula-pavana said: 2. SP is not a current link - he passed on to Vaikuntha. This statement is just too much for me. If Srila Prabhupada is not THE current link, then who is? ISKCON rock-star Gurus? You must be joking.... Even GBC recognizes Srila Prabhupada as primary siksa guru for entire ISKCON, forever. Srila Prabhupada is certainly current link for us, and will be for all to come. And regarding your statement, that he passed on to Vaikuntha.... well, where would you get such information from. You have some special astral connections with some semi-transparent beings? In any case, you present Srila Prabhupada as being something from the past, and that's extremely distasteful to me. Srila Prabhupada will be always present to all sincere seekers, just as he always was, through his books and other siksa sources. All other gurus are there just to connect you to Srila Prabhupada. No other guru can come even close to Srila Prabhupada in availability to disciple and quality of siksa.Who is the current link? To disciples of a particular guru it is his guru. For you - if you are an actual disciple of SP - it is Srila Prabhupada. Do you think SP was the only disciple of BST who was a link to the GV sampradaya in modern times? That is a complete bunk. BST personally authorized 2 of his sannyasi disciples to take on disciples even in BST presence, let alone after his passing: Bon Maharaja and Bhakti Saranga Maharaja. Prabhupada took sannyasa from his Godbrother Kesava Maharaja - was Kesava Maharaja not a valid link of our sampradaya? He had several thousand disciples. Srila Prabhupada is both past and present, but for most (if not all) new devotees he is just the past. I believe he passed on to Vaikuntha because some very enlightened Vaishnavas said so.
Pandu das:...Srila Prabhupada's leading disciples were interested in doing their own thing and not properly following Srila Prabhupada, and I presume he noticed this himself. This would explain why, although he would have liked to have had disciples qualified as diksa guru, he did not actually authorize anyone to become take that post. Instead, he created a system of automatic acceptance of disciples by him based upon established criteria for qualifying disciples. It seems to me that this system would work quite well if it was implemented.There is not a single shastric example of a guru accepting disciples after his departure from this world. Srila Prabhupada makes no mention of contemplating any such system anywhere in his writings. No sadhus in our sampradaya ever spoke of such a system. Thus based on guru, sadhu, and shastra, such a system is unauthorized. And anybody who thinks that being labelled 'ritvik guru' as opposed to 'regular guru' would have prevented the abuses of power by people such as Kirtanananda, Bhavananda, or Hansadutta, simply does not know the human nature and individuals in question. These people abused their power even when SP was still here.
Kula-pavana:Who is the current link? To disciples of a particular guru it is his guru. For you - if you are an actual disciple of SP - it is Srila Prabhupada. Do you think SP was the only disciple of BST who was a link to the GV sampradaya in modern times? That is a complete bunk. BST personally authorized 2 of his sannyasi disciples to take on disciples even in BST presence, let alone after his passing: Bon Maharaja and Bhakti Saranga Maharaja. Prabhupada took sannyasa from his Godbrother Kesava Maharaja - was Kesava Maharaja not a valid link of our sampradaya? He had several thousand disciples. Srila Prabhupada is both past and present, but for most (if not all) new devotees he is just the past. I believe he passed on to Vaikuntha because some very enlightened Vaishnavas said so.Kula-pavana, my point is, that there is a bit more to CURRENT LINK then one person. And especially, if this "one single person" position is enforced upon us by GBC institutional guru system. Even if one got diksa from specific guru, it doesn't mean that this guru is his only link to Sampradaya. Actually, diksa guru needs not be even a prominent link to sampradaya. Link means siksa. And Srila Prabhupada is prominent siksa guru for all ISKCON devotees. Your problem is, that you try to limit CURRENT LINK to one person alone, namely diksa guru. This is wrong understanding. Siksa connection is actual connection. For ISKCON devotees this will always be Srila Prabhupada. ---------------- Otherwise, it is good that you clarified your personal beliefs regarding Srila Prabhupada being past and present, and then past again, and then passed on to Vaikuntha. It is very clear. Nice.
Giri-nayaka das:..my point is, that there is a bit more to CURRENT LINK then one person. And especially, if this "one single person" position is enforced upon us by GBC institutional guru system. Even if one got diksa from specific guru, it doesn't mean that this guru is his only link to Sampradaya. Actually, diksa guru needs not be even a prominent link to sampradaya. Link means siksa. And Srila Prabhupada is prominent siksa guru for all ISKCON devotees. Your problem is, that you try to limit CURRENT LINK to one person alone, namely diksa guru. This is wrong understanding. Siksa connection is actual connection. For ISKCON devotees this will always be Srila Prabhupada.Just think about a link and a chain in the physical sense. The link is connecting you (one link) to the sampradaya (rest of the chain) and ultimately Krishna through a particular person (connecting or uniting link). Usually that link means mantra diksa guru, because the mantra is Krsna in the form and taste carried by the particular sampradaya. Because diksa is only one, the link is only one. Mantra is extremely important here. BST developed a very unique way of looking at the sampradaya - with connection passed primarily through siksa, at least starting with Jagannatha das Babaji - previous links in the sampradaya he outlined are more or less going along the straight diksa lines. I believe that altough there is some validity to this thinking, the main reason was to avoid the issue of Bhaktivinoda's diksa connection through the Vipin Bihari line. When Prabhupada was speaking about his initiated disciples being the next link he meant his diksa disciples, and only his diksa disciples.
Pandu das: That he intended to continue to accept disciples indefinitely is proven in his Declaration of Will, “...a successor director or directors may be appointed by the remaining directors, provided the new director is my initiated disciple...” (Srila Prabhupada’s Declaration of Will, June 4th, 1977) He did not say "a member of ISKCON in good standing," or "is an initiated discple following in my line," or any similar statement. He said, "my initiated discple." He, of course, knew what he was writing and made no mistake. Unless he was planning to lose his properties in India, or have them go unmanaged after the eventual departure of his initiated disciples, then it should be clear that that he intended the system of automatic rtvik initiations he implemented shortly before his mahasamadhi, with no sunset clause, to continue indefinitely. Otherwise that portion of Srila Prabhupada's Will makes no sense.I do not think you understand the way a Will document works in the legal sense. When you write a Will, you are passing ownership of your assets to a designated party and that legal arrangement is only valid as long as the designated party is alive, not for all eternity. It is the Will of my son which will decide how are the assets he received from me (in my Will) to be managed. That is how SP's Will is drawn.