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Social: Is this statement in the constitution draft dangerous for ISKCON society?

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  1.  
    verbatim:

    C. Definition of ISKCON

    The International Society for Krishna Consciousness is a sacred mission created by Srila Prabhupada, --> including but not limited to his instructions and personal example <--, temples, projects, Deities, and so forth, given by him in stewardship to his followers who are organized as a society under the governance of the ISKCON Governing Body Commission.

    It seems to me a premise calling for (more) trouble, but I might be wrong. Please comment.
  2.  
    The Governing Body Commission (or GBC) was created by Prabhupada in 1970. According to the letter of 28th July 1970 Prabhupada appointed following members to the commission, all of them non sannyasi: [22]

    1. Śrīmān Rupanuga Das Adhikary
    2. Śrīmān Bhagavandas Adhikary
    3. Śrīmān Syamsundar Das Adhikary
    4. Śrīmān Satsvarupa Das Adhikary
    5. Śrīmān Karandhar Das Adhikary
    6. Śrīmān Hansadutta Das Adhikary
    7. Śrīmān Tamala Kṛṣṇa Das Adhikary
    8. Śrīmān Sudama Das Adhikary
    9. Śrīmān Bali Mardan Das Brahmacary
    10. Śrīmān Jagadisa Das Adhikary
    11. Śrīmān Hayagriva Das Adhikary
    12. Śrīmān Kṛṣṇadas Adhikary
    The letter outlines the following purposes of the commission: 1) improving the standard of temple management, 2) spread of Krishna consciousness, 3) distribution of books and literature, 4) opening new centers, 5) education of the devotees.
  3.  
    my question revolves around the "--> including but not limited to his (Srila Prabhupada´s) instructions and personal example <--" part.
  4.  
    diyourself:my question revolves around the "--> including but not limited to his (Srila Prabhupada´s) instructions and personal example <--" part.
    I personally do not have a problem with that - some things should change with time, because they if they are not working we should try something else.
  5.  
    ,,,it doesn't really matter,it's just a piece of paper that won't do anyone any good ever
  6.  
    Are they not working because of the instructions themselves or the non-application of the instructions?
    Seems to me that if someone thinks that SP instructions are "not working", they should found their own movement with their smart "changes" and come back with success model to show.
    Till date, changes made to SP instructions are the root cause of many if not all the disgraces that haunt us all.
  7.  
    I am curious to know what instructions of His Divine Grace did not work when applied... any example Kula-pavana?
  8.  
    The educational system as originally outlined in my opinion clearly did not work - and I am not talking about the abuse part - just the basic practical concepts: kids taken from families and placed in far away schools, inequity in educating girls (4 years of basic education only) and boys, limiting education to devotional studies only. The kids coming out of these gurukulas were not very well prepared for practical life in this world.

    The other area would be the management of Iskcon, like nominating GBCs for life, nominating TP's (as opposed to electing them), and in general: the lack of system of institutional checks and balances. At one time the Direction of Management (DOM) document was developed and signed by Srila Prabhupada, but it was not fully implemented by him, and in many cases he himself did not follow its directives. That created a precedent which today is used by Iskcon leaders to do things any way they like and there is nothing you or me can do to stop them.
    • CommentAuthordiyourself
    • CommentTimeMay 5th 2008 edited
     
    "Management (DOM) document was developed and signed by Srila Prabhupada, but it was not fully implemented by him, and in many cases he himself did not follow its directives."

    All your points speak of envy to Srila Prabhupada and Vedic culture. You slyly put the blame on SP for all our inadequacies and shortcomings.

    I would recommend everybody to quit your poisonous association instantly, and I ask you to leave this my question alone and go your way.
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      CommentAuthorsitapati
    • CommentTimeMay 5th 2008
     
    ?????

    atmavan manyate jagat

    "One sees in others what is present within oneself"

    Commentary on the motivations of others invariably says more about the commentator than it does about the person they are commenting on.
  11.  
    sitapati:
    "Commentary on the motivations of others invariably says more about the commentator than it does about the person they are commenting on"

    Ah, yes? Then there is no Absolute Truth? Every time SP says that people witout KC are animals, you apply the "atmavan"?

    All comments about others fall into that category? Is your comment about me, somewhat above the rule?

    I think you fit more into those yoga clubs that pull aphorisms to suit their whimsical needs.

    That statement by KP is VERY offensive of Srila Prabhupada, of course it goes along with your KS like train of though and suits your speculative mental orgasms.

    Poor thing, and poor the people that participates in your squander of the philosophy and the despise of the pure devotee. This is Kaliyuga folks!!!!
  12.  
    diyourself:"Management (DOM) document was developed and signed by Srila Prabhupada, but it was not fully implemented by him, and in many cases he himself did not follow its directives." All your points speak of envy to Srila Prabhupada and Vedic culture. You slyly put the blame on SP for all our inadequacies and shortcomings.
    Have you even read the DOM document? And have you compared it with the later decissions Srila Prabhupada made? Read about it here http://www.iskconconstitution.com/node/100 before you make more accusatory remarks. You asked: "I am curious to know what instructions of His Divine Grace did not work when applied.." and I gave you historical examples based on recorded and verifiable facts. There is a conversation from May 28th 1977 where Srila Prabhupada shows he has changed his mind regarding DOM: Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada, we were all asked by the rest of the GBC to come to ask some questions. Most… These are the members of the original GBC as you first made it up. So our first question is about the GBC members. We want to know how long should they remain in office? Prabhupada: They should remain for good. Tamala Krishna: They should remain for good. Prabhupada: Selected men are chosen, so they cannot be changed. Rather, if some competent man comes, he should be added. I shall recommend that Vasudeva become one of the GBC. Tamala Krishna: Vasudeva is Deoji Punja. He’s the founder of our… He’s building the temple in Fiji. Prabhupada: How many GBC’s are there already? Tamala Krishna: Twenty-three. Prabhupada: So add him. GBC is not to be changed. Satsvarupa: But then, in the event that some present GBC member leaves, either leaves… Prabhupada: Another should be elected. Satsvarupa: By the votes of the present GBC. ………………. [……….] Prabhupada: So there is no question of changing GBC. Satsvarupa: No. Prabhupada: Rather, one who is competent, he can be selected to act by the board of the GBC. Tamala Krishna: Of course, if someone has a falldown, just like in the past some GBC men have fallen down… Prabhupada: He should be replaced. Tamala Krishna: Then he should be replaced. But that’s a serious falldown, not some minor discrepancy. Prabhupada: They must be all ideal acarya-like. In the beginning we have done for working. Now we should be very cautious. Anyone who is deviating, he can be replaced.
  13.  
    so you supersede 2 signed documents for a (.....) silence?
    you put the blame on SP because he did not force the rascals to implement the DOM?
    and, can't you see that SP referred to the GBC that he appointed?
    above all there is common sense, elections are meant to install the check and balance you seem to love.
    Is your conclusion that the DOM doesnt work? As all other managerial instructions of SP first we have to follow them, then we can judge.
    What I clearly see is the demeaning tone on Srila Prabhupada, shame on you, 1 thousand times.
  14.  
    1. The point I was making is that SP himself did not always follow DOM and later gave instructions directly contradicting that set of rules. This is the very reason DOM is not being followed now in our society - just ask the GBC.
    2. I am not blaming Prabhupada for anything. I am just stating the facts. You jump to all kinds of conclusions.
    3. I am all for electing GBCs and TPs as per DOM because the current appointment system is not working to the advantage of our movement.
    4. DOM in my opinion is a much better program than the current system which is based on later instructions of SP.
    5. Which managerial instructions of SP do we have to follow in order to judge whether they are working or not? The earlier ones (DOM) or the later ones, on which the current system is based? You can't follow both of them because they are different. The later set of instructions has been in place for a long time (as in GBC's and TP's by appointment) and many devotees feel that it is not working, as there is no accountability and no correcting system. That is the very reason so many devotees want to implement DOM, almost 40 years after it was originally introduced.
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      CommentAuthorsitapati
    • CommentTimeMay 6th 2008
     
    Use of the "mocking rhetorical question" is not at all compatible with the spirit of pariprashnena. If you have some fact to state, then simply state it with it pramana. If you want to humbly and sincerely inquire, then do that.

    If you want to characterize and put other devotees down, this is not the place for it.

    "Etiquette is the jewel of the Vaisnava."
    - Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu
    Thankful People: abrennan
    • CommentAuthordiyourself
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2008 edited
     
    "At one time the Direction of Management (DOM) document was developed and signed by Srila Prabhupada, but it was not fully implemented by him, and in many cases he himself did not follow its directives. That created a precedent which today is used by Iskcon leaders to do things any way they like"

    If you do not see the statement above as "characterize and put other devotees down" in this case Srila Prabhupada!!!, you have your etiquette concept upside down. Only 30 years have passed and already "scholars" and "managers" dare to criticize and supersede His Divine Grace.

    For your information, we are all here posing as "vaishnavas" only because of him. I know, he is not God, but one thing he had: he was meticulous, he did not leave things to hazard. That is why the DOM and testament exist in black and white, another thing is that ass***s interpret with the glasses of contempt.

    And finally, do you think guru is like your daddy you can blame for NOT chastising and forcing you to follow instructions? A proper father figure must be somewhat lacking in your life... Please grow.
    • CommentAuthordiyourself
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2008
     
    trying to shamelessly put the blame on SP does not cloud the fact in my eyes that this statement in the draft of the constitution--> including but not limited to his instructions and personal example <-- is rascaldom elevated to the max potency and will ruin what is still left of ISKCON as movement.
    • CommentAuthordeena
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2008 edited
     
    "The International Society for Krishna Consciousness is a sacred mission created by Srila Prabhupada, including but not limited to his instructions and personal example, temples, projects, Deities, and so forth, given by him in stewardship to his followers who are organized as a society under the governance of the ISKCON Governing Body Commission."

    To me it is saying that Iskcon consists of Prabhupada's instructions, personal example, temples, projects, deities etc, and the "including but not limited to" phrase refers to the extension of Iskcon activities/projects implemented and developed by his disciples, grand-disciples, well-wishers, etc. It essentially says: Iskcon is everything Prabhupada did and everything his followers have done (and will do). It seems reasonable to me.
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      CommentAuthorekendra
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2008
     
    i just have to lean in here and comment about this phenomenon of hiding behind a fictitious user name and making inflammatory remarks towards other people.

    Would anyone who does this be able to bring themselves to say such things in a face to face conversation?

    I guess it would be idealistic of me to expect everyone to conduct themselves with maturity but I think that requiring people to actually use their devotional names (if they have one) would hold them more accountable for what they say. That would make this whole forum a lot more useful and worth revisiting in my opinion.

    I rarely visit these days because of all of the bullying and quarrel that I read here. Could have been prevented by following the above advice, which I did give when this site was just starting. Oh well ... too late now ... for the most part it's become a loosely structured melee with devotees practically sticking out their tongues at each other and instigating quarrel.
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      CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2008
     
    Ekendra Prabhu:

    If you take a look at the overall questions, they are not bullying, quarrel etc. They are simple and innocent questions about varied themes.

    This site is made by the contributions of its members and reflects their consciousness, so your negative comments will not help, only to reassure you of not coming so often or trying to convince others to follow your example.

    If you come and ask and answer nice questions it will be nicer .

    If you expect the world to be a nice, aseptic place, I remind you it is not.
    We are not going to suppress "problematic" or "politically incorrect" posts because it forms part of our life and needs to be discussed.

    Even if a contributor is wrongly developing a theme, that will serve for others to learn from it. To "sanitize" websites is a practice that repels thoughtful and intelligent people that like to know the whole truth.

    We know that to show the truth with all its ugly face will repel those who like to entrench on their rosy world fearing to ask themselves those questions that disturb but probably are an essential part of becoming Krishna conscious.

    If you do not like this site and you are prone to a intellectually "clean" and "safe" type of forum, that is also your call. Please let others ask and comment on "spiky" issues for the sake of understanding.

    On the other hand, if you see a comment that violates our terms and conditions, please let us know and we will promptly take action.
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      CommentAuthorekendra
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2008
     
    haribol adminji.

    I agree with you (whoever you are) that there is very little point in having a forum where there is no freedom of expression and where only sterilized dialogue takes place. However, I'm not impressed with some individuals who take that freedom (coupled with anonymity) and use it to provoke reactions in ways that I seriously doubt they'd have the courage to do face to face.

    By your own standards of non-censorship I think I should be free express when I think the discussions are going in an unproductive direction. This is the case on this thread. Other threads too, but who wants to hear me complaining ALL the time.

    If I were to stop coming here it wouldn't be because of your suggestion that I'm prone to an intellectually 'clean' and 'safe' forum. I think I can safely say that anyone who knows me could testify to that.

    My reasoning would be along the lines of why I rarely read the Rupert Murdoch owned media stuff like FOX Network or The Daily Telegraph here in Australia. I'd just rather get my information in a classier way without all of the immaturity and intellectually/emotionally accosting interactions. If you have a look at the New York Times, for instance, they actually can present some hot topics but not in such a sensationalist or populist way as the Murdoch group. (Most of the time that is - the NYTimes has its shortcoming too pushing political agendas so one-sidedly.)

    I still have high hopes for this forum and have supported it from just about its inception. Looking at your site stats just now it seems that I'm probably in the top ten for # of posts.

    Oh and because I'm human I'd like to admit that this statement of yours got me upset:

    "We know that to show the truth with all its ugly face will repel those who like to entrench on their rosy world fearing to ask themselves those questions that disturb but probably are an essential part of becoming Krishna conscious. "

    Please. This is a good example of the kind of inflammatory remark that makes my forehead squinch up and wonder why I keep coming here. Do you know me well enough to make such a suggestion? Would you say something like this to me face to face? How can you be so confident that 'we' are are too entrenched in our 'rosy world' that we are 'afraid to ask ourselves' essential and challenging questions?

    What rosy world? Geez. Not the one I live in I can assure you.
    •  
      CommentAuthoradmin
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2008
     
    This site is part of the http://www.iskcontech.com works.

    It is signed "admin" because we are more than one person that work in sync and all admin posts are written in consensus.

    We mean no inflammatory remark or personal insult on it. We took the opportunity to state our policies and understandings following your (welcomed) criticism.

    At the very beginning of this site, almost a year ago now, it was discussed whether or not to allow anonymous posts... and we decided to allow them, if they do not transgress the terms of service.

    If you thing something is needed to change or need to add in our terns of service, or see a post that violates the existing ones, please convey.

    related:
    http://www.pariprashnena.com/discussion/345/
  23.  
    ekendra:i just have to lean in here and comment about this phenomenon of hiding behind a fictitious user name and making inflammatory remarks towards other people.
    For the record: I use my actual initiated name on all forums where I write.

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