Guru is plural.

Such research is not within a range of pratyaksa and anumana. What remains is sastra caksu.

Not wrong answer! No material ingredients,spiritualised not svarupa.

About which guru are you talking about Dave?

We actually don't think it is 'marble' full stop.

"Even if you say that this is a marble statue, still Kåñëa is so powerful, omnipotent, that He can accept your service even through this marble. Actually, it is not marble."

Just to be sure - it is not marble (even if materialist sees it this way).

"In this connection the Padma Purana states, arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir vaisnave jati-buddhih . . yasya va naraki sah: "One who considers the arca-murti, the worshipable Deity of Lord Visnu, to be stone, the spiritual master to be an ordinary human being, and a Vaisnava to belong to a particular caste or creed is possessed of hellish intelligence." One who follows such conclusions is doomed."

"These rascals say patthar puje hari mile to me puju pahada. They think, he's such a rascal, he's thinking that the Deity is patthar or stone. But it is not like that."

"If anyone, the Deity in the temple, thinks, siladhih, stone and wood; vaisnave jati-buddhih, if anyone considers a Vaisnava under certain particular race or caste; gurusu nara-matih, if one considers guru as ordinary human being, then he is hellish. These are forbidden. We should know the arca-vigraha, the worshipable Deity, is Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself, present."

You are trying to apply anumana here, but you should take it as fact. (I know it is hard Dave, but this is required).

I would not take exact words of Hayagriva Swami to be exact words that Prabhupada have said, but it seems we would rather discuss deity arca-vigraha, then the "directly spiritual" body of a guru. (thank god we are not discussing jati-buddhih - so much spread out these days...)

cc wrote - "WRONG ANSWER"

Lets us Take heed of maxim "fools rush in where Angels fear to thread"

Is it I who has wrong answer or is it u who has wrong or INSUFFICIENT UNDERSTANDING.

Let's see! ;-) 


Hare Krishna!

ccd:

Dave, we do not take spiritual masters body 'spiritualised' it is 'fully spiritual' as per sastra and Prabhupada. I do not like your tone, you did not even offer your obeisances... dangerous... (((:-)

The fact that we take spiritual master's body as fully spiritual is not to be confused with a pure devotee who has no material affection, due to his body's being spiritualized like a red-hot iron in contact with fire.

It seems if you do not have a spiritual master you can not understand it. It does not work on 'previous' acharyas, it is a specific view of a current guru requirement. (I think I am hitting it rather close to the nerve with you, so I just wanted to touch it a bit more to see where is a root of your affliction...)

Sometimes doubts arise in the minds of neophytes about whether or not the spiritual master is liberated, and sometimes neophytes are doubtful about the bodily affairs of the spiritual master.
The point of liberation, however, is not to see the bodily symptoms of the spiritual master. One has to see the spiritual symptoms of the spiritual master.
jeevan-mukta means that even one is in the material body
(there are still some material necessities, since the body is material),
because one is fully situated in the service of the Lord, he/she should be understood to be liberated.
http://srimadbhagavatam.com/3/33/10/en


CHECK MATE! ;-)



Acarya-avatara Paramguru Srila Prabhupada ki jaya!!

U know what I said cc,stop trying to twist things.

I said previously;

NOT WRONG ANSWER. Spiritualised,directly spiritual,not svarupa.


To not see bodily symtoms does not mean there r no so called bodily symtoms. Just like to say we r not the body does not mean there is no body.

We r not voidists.

No cc, not seeing 'bodily' symtoms is not synonymous with denying 'bodily' symtoms.

TRY AND UNDERSTAND!


Ysvt.


HK!

Have u edited u first post Cc?

Ysvt.

What about ur 2nd post. Did u change it?

Ysvt.

How are we defining spiritual here? As I understand it, spiritual means "for Krishna's pleasure." The spiritual master's body is spiritual because his bodily activities are meant for pleasing Krishna.

Why do you expect me to clarify something you call nonsense (except that you are a friend=) ???

One is definition of a pure devotee - whose senses are completely absorbed in the service of the Lord - comes from sevonmukhe hi jihvAdau svayam eva sphuraty adaH [Brs. 1.2.234].

this describes a process

completely different instruction is a simple prohibition

Arcye viSNu Silä-dhIr guruSu nara-matir vaiSëave jAti-buddhiH. (incidently BBTi that did not give a reference to Padma Purana in Vedabase or in SB)


Full version and translation of this puranic sloka is:

arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir
vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhir
viṣṇor vā vaiṣṇavānāṁ kali-mala-mathane
pāda-tīrthe ’mbu-buddhiḥ
śrī-viṣṇor nāmni mantre sakala-kaluṣa-he
śabda-sāmānya-buddhir
viṣṇau sarveśvareśe tad-itara-sama-dhīr
yasya vā nārakī saḥ

“One who thinks the deity in the temple to be made of wood or stone; who thinks of the body of the spiritual master in the disciplic succession to be material; who thinks a Vaishnava of the infallible Lord’s belonging to a certain caste or creed; who thinks of carinamrita or Ganges water an ordinary water; who considers the mantra composed of the names of the Lord, which destroys all sins, to be a set of ordinary words; or who considers the Supreme Lord of all lords, Vishnu, to be equal to an ordinary human being—is taken to be a resident of hell.”

This is the check list of distinction between devotees and non-devotees; first sloka is a description of a process of liberation in bhakti marga, so many can be liberated, but they are not nessesarly your gurus, and you do not have to put thier pictures on the altar and worship them as divine.

Here is Ananda Hari prabhu's interesting view on the discussion;

"Seems a pointless argument, really cant see cc's problem with the difference between spiritualised and spiritual. Narada Muni = Spiritual body, can travell anywhere doesnt get old diseased etc. Srila Prabhupad when he was on planet with Spiritualised body which got old and diseased and heart attack. Difference between Srila Prabhupada and Narada Muni in terms of their eternal relationship with Krishna (not Kanea, lazy cut and paste from Vedabase) = ABSOLUTLY NONE, both are cent percent engaged in Krishna's service.
Reason Srila Prabhupada's body is in Samadhi is because we worship it as it is Spiritualised, this is not ordinary in anyway, perhaps it is a case for Acintyabhedabhedatattva.
on one level there is a difference but ultimately there is no difference.....
Anyway please please please do not bring my name into this. ys ah

What is interesting about it?

I would expect him speak about how he feels that the body of Srila Hridayananda Goswami is spiritual or spiritualized (american spelling dude:) There is no point in discussing body of a 'nitya-lila-pravista' guru, obviously it is worshipable, question is how you see 'your' guru, the guru who answers your questions and chastises you, the guru who speaks the mantra in your ear and if you can not repeat right, correcting you, how you see his body? Is it made out of material elements or not? (obviously question is not to you Dave... and not about Narada Muni)

You seems to suggest that gurus body (for you) is made of material elements and 'because of it' gets old. That is the way I imperfectly perceive it in the offencive state, while I have to accept it is an honest way, but according to Prabhupada it is offensive. He clearly states: "to think that the body of the spiritual master consists of material ingredients is offensive." (SB 8.3.2) I have to admit it is not uncommon, but one 'has to see' spritual master as spiritual, just as one 'has to see' Deity as not made of stone. Talking about faith, that takes faith in the omnipotency of Krishna.

Now one has to overcome offenses to chant purely. I can not say that I am free of the offences, and that is possibly why I asked the question. Thank you for sending in Ananda's view. C U

Well that could be an answer, if it's not composed of material elements, I will not insist that gurus body is his svarupa, but it well may be his/her svarupa in Caitanya lila, lots of jiva-tattva gurus, who got old are worshiped in their Caitanya lila svarupa forms.

While another quote may help, I use it alot:

"One may argue that we may see a person who is spiritually engaged twenty-four hours a day but is still suffering from disease. In fact, however, he is neither suffering nor diseased; otherwise he could not be engaged twenty-four hours a day in spiritual activities. The example may be given in this connection that sometimes dirty foam or garbage is seen floating on the water of the Ganges. This is called néra-dharma, a function of the water. But one who goes to the Ganges does not mind the foam and dirty things floating in the water. With his hand, he pushes away such nasty things, bathes in the Ganges and gains the beneficial results. Therefore, one who is situated in the spiritual status of life is unaffected by foam and garbage-or any superficial dirty things."

And

"The spiritual master, or äcärya, is always situated in the spiritual status of life. Birth, death, old age and disease do not affect him. According to the Hari-bhakti-viläsa, therefore, after the disappearance of an äcärya, his body is never burnt to ashes, for it is a spiritual body. The spiritual body is always unaffected by material conditions."

Prabhupada wrote it just a few weeks before departing from this world.

Cc-) "It seems if you do not have a spiritual master you can not understand it. It does not work on 'previous' acharyas, it is a specific view of a current guru requirement. (I think I am hitting it rather close to the nerve with you, so I just wanted to touch it a bit more to see where is a root of your affliction...)"

It seems that if one has a formal initiating spiritual master u cannot understand it. (Cc,I think I am hitting it rather close to the nerve with you, so I just wanted to touch it a bit more to see where is a root of your affliction...)"

Does your guru have a material body?

No. Everyone's real and eternal, ultimate guru is Sri Caitya Guru in the heart. He has no material body, although He has the most attractive personal form. However, kanistha gurus and madyama gurus do have material bodies and an uttama guru is liberated and his body is spiritualized, should not be considered material.

cc-) "Thank you for your frank confession that you are a neophyte and thus see bodily symptoms of the spiritual master (name to be confirmed at a later stage I guess). I am sorry to disappoint you, Srila Prabhupadas body IS fully spiritual, not just spiritualised, I guess you will need to come to the 'point of liberation' for that, while for myself I see it only through the eyes of the scriptures (Dave, go to the attic, and please check you old chess books;-)"


I am sorry to disappoint you, Srila Prabhupadas body IS fully spiritual(svarupa!)not just spiritualised.

Cc,which Sastra is it from (or is it from ur head?)??

Thanks

Ysvt,Nrsinghadave.

Jaya Srila Prabhupada!

HK!

To date the following reference was used from Padma Purana:

arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir
vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhir
viṣṇor vā vaiṣṇavānāṁ kali-mala-mathane
pāda-tīrthe ’mbu-buddhiḥ
śrī-viṣṇor nāmni mantre sakala-kaluṣa-he
śabda-sāmānya-buddhir
viṣṇau sarveśvareśe tad-itara-sama-dhīr
yasya vā nārakī saḥ

“One who thinks the deity in the temple to be made of wood or stone; who thinks of the body of the spiritual master in the disciplic succession to be material; who thinks a Vaishnava of the infallible Lord’s belonging to a certain caste or creed; who thinks of carinamrita or Ganges water an ordinary water; who considers the mantra composed of the names of the Lord, which destroys all sins, to be a set of ordinary words; or who considers the Supreme Lord of all lords, Vishnu, to be equal to an ordinary human being—is taken to be a resident of hell.”

We can also quote"

prabhu kahe vaiṣṇava-deha prākṛta kabhu naya
aprākṛta deha bhaktera cid-ānanda-maya

“The body of a devotee is never material. It is transcendental, full of spiritual bliss cid-ānanda.”
(CC Antya.4.191) (Prabhupada quotes the above Padma Purana verse in the purport).

dīkṣā-kāle bhakta kare ātma-samarpaṇa
sei-kāle kṛṣṇa tāre kare ātma-sama

“At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Kṛṣṇa accepts him to be as good as Himself.

sei deha kare tāra cid-ānanda-maya
aprākṛta-dehe tāṅra caraṇa bhajaya

“When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur comments on CC verses in his Anubhāṣya commentary: “At the time of initiation, the devotee gives up material conceptions and starts to think in terms of sambandha-jñāna or his eternal relationship with Krishna and His family. As soon as he has this supramundane or spiritual knowledge, he becomes eligible to serve the Lord in a similarly spiritual identity. As soon as the surrendered devotee is free from the shelter of Maya, Krishna adopts him and makes him His own. At this stage, the devotee’s delusion as enjoyer of material pleasures dissipates, and his real self merges with his new identity an eternal servant of Krishna. The devotee attains his spiritual body (sac-cid-ānanda-svarūpa) and his eternal service to Krishna, serving Him in his own transcendental form. The pure devotee’s ecstatic service is an elevated stage of devotion that is often misinterpreted and misunderstood by those unacquainted with the science of devotion. For this kind of aparadha one is deprived of the shelter of a Vaishnava guru.”
(Anubhāṣya, CC, Antya 4.193)

Now you know Dave why you are deprived of the shelter of a Vaishnava guru...

In Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.12.1-2), Lord Krsna Himself explains:


na rodhayati mam yogo
na sankhyam dharma uddhava
na svadhyayas tapas tyago
nesta-purtam na daksina

vratani yajnas chandamsi
tirthani niyama yamah
yathavarundhe sat-sangah
sarva-sangapaho hi mam


"My dear Uddhava, neither through astanga-yoga (the mystic yoga to control the senses), nor through impersonal monism or an analytical study of the Absolute Truth, nor through study of the Vedas, nor through practice of austerities, nor through charity, nor through acceptance of sannyasa, nor through many pious deeds, nor through giving daksina, nor through following vows, nor through performing many yajnas, nor through chanting Vedic hymns, nor through visiting holy places, nor through controlling the senses can one bring Me under his control as much as one can by associating with saintly devotees. Their association frees one from the touch of matter."

In Srimad-Bhagavatam (5.12.12), Jada Bharata explains:


rahuganaitat tapasa na yati
na cejyaya nirvapanad grhad va
na cchandasa naiva jalagni-suryair
vina mahat-pada-rajo-'bhisekam


"My dear King Rahugana, unless one has the opportunity to smear his entire body with the dust of the lotus feet of great devotees, one cannot realize the Absolute Truth. One cannot realize the Absolute Truth simply by observing celibacy (brahmacarya), strictly following the rules and regulations of householder life, leaving home as vanaprastha, accepting sannyasa, or undergoing severe penances in winter by keeping oneself submerged in water or surrounding oneself in summer by fire and the scorching heat of the sun. There are many other processes to understand the Absolute Truth, but the Absolute Truth is only revealed to one who has attained the mercy of a great devotee."


atrāhuḥ-deśika-sat-prasaṅgasyāpīśa-hetukatvāt tad-anugraha eva mocako'stu | śubhādṛṣṭaṁ tu na tat-prasaṅga-hetuḥ | tasyāpi tad-dhetukatvāt | sarvā ca pravṛttir īśa-hetuketi, parāt tu tac-chruteḥ [ve.sū. 2.3.41] ity anena nirṇītam | tasmād deśikādy-anugrahasyāpi mukti-kāraṇatva-kalpanam ayuktam iti |

atrocyate-yadyapi deśikāder anugrahe'pīśa-hetukatvaṁ sambhāvyaṁ, tathāpi tebhyo dattāsti, atas teṣām eva tatra svātantryam | tair anugṛhīte tu jane so'pi tam anupravartayatīti sarvāṇi vākyāni sāspadāni syur vaiṣamyādy-apanayaś ceti

Here someone may object: The mercy of the spiritual master and the association of saintly devotees are both attained by the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore the real cause of liberation is His mercy. even good fortune does not happen independently. That also is caused by the Lord's mercy. Indeed, all actions are caused by the Lord's mercy, as was explained in sūtra 2.3.39. Therefore it is not right to say that liberation is caused by the mercy of the spiritual master or by any cause other than the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

To this objection I reply: Even though they are themselves caused by the Lord Himself, still the spiritual master's mercy and the other causes like it are also causes of liberation in their own right. This was already explained in the passage beginning with sūtra 2.3.40. The truth is that the Supreme Personality of Godhead becomes conquered by His devotees and He gives them the power to grant His own mercy to others. In this way the devotees are independent agents who can deliver the Lord's mercy to others. When the devotees give their mercy to someone, then the Supreme Lord also gives His mercy to that person. In this way all seeming contradictions and the different passages of the scriptures are all resolved. (Baladeva' Govinda Bhasya -3.24/33.51)

In Smṛti-śāstra it is said:


guru-prasādo balavān
na tasmād balavattaram
tathāpi śravaṇādiś ca
kartavyo mokṣa-siddhaye


"The spiritual master's mercy is most important. Nothing is more important. Still, in order to attain liberation one should certainly hear the glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and serve Him in many ways."

bhavati vicintya viduṣā
niravakāra guru-paramaparā nityam
ekāntitvaṁ sidhyati yayod-
ayati yena hari-toṣam

A discriminating person pleases Lord Hari by remembering the succession of bona-fide spiritual masters, all of whom are transcendental, this enable one to attain the perfection of unalloyed devotional service.

Iskcon Guru Vrnda Ki Jaya!

Acarya-avatara HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Ki Jaya!

Ananta koti Vaisnava vrnda ki jaya!


GAURANGA!! :o)

Who was the speAker,is there a link for the class?

Ysvt.