Philosophy: What is more important - Dedication to the organization or personal relationship with Krishna ?

What is of utmost priority ?

Should one put more focus on being a dedicated member of the spiritual organization or should one focus on one's personal relationship with Krsna ?

(Or can both go together (in present circumstances) ?)

hvm, never sacrifice your integrity for the sake of institutions or organizations.

I find it much easier to be loyal and dedicated to my local temple than to an entire organization. If you come to the temple you should find it in your heart to help maintain that temple, either with your service, bhoga for the Deities, or money. Be a giver when vising Lord's Temple. That saves us from trying to enjoy the property of the Lord.

Pandu das:If we're talking about ISKCON, I would not be so quick to find fault with it. Srila Prabhupada founded ISKCON and arranged for its management after his disappearance, which is being conducted by his disciples whom he trained. It's hard to find fault with the disciples without honestly finding fault with the guru, and the next step would be to find fault with Krishna.

A fine example of the kind of logic that equates dedication to the organisation to dedication to Krishna.

Pandu das:If one isn't confident that things are being managed properly but isn't in a position to do anything about it without creating a disturbance, then there are probably ways to serve so that one's service isn't misused. If we can't figure out how to do that, then we're probably not any more advanced than those we would criticize.

A fine example of the kind of logic that teaches devotees to only speak up only as long is it doesn't disturb others in the organisation. In all, the kind of logic that allows dysfunctional organisational dynamics to grow and flourish.

Deena prabhu,

Hare Krishna. By "the organization" I presume you mean the society of devotees that Srila Prabhupada built. Would you say that Srila Prabhupada failed to build a functional organization or that he failed to train his disciples properly?

Prabhupada: "If I say that "I am ISKCON," what is the wrong there? Because I have created this; therefore I say, "ISKCON means I. I am ISKCON." So what is the wrong there? It is like that. By energy of Krsna, everything has come out. Therefore says, "I am this, I am this, I am this, I am this." Vibhuti-bhinnam. Because everything.... Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. Everything has come from Krsna."
Morning Walk -- January 3, 1976, Nellore

Krishna has said that service to His devotees is better than serving Him directly. Also consider the first offense against the Holy Name of the Lord.

There is a devotee living nearby, he thinks he is the only devotee around, and that anyone who goes to the temple across the street is a loser. He thinks he's the only one who is dedicated to Srila Prabhupada, so much that he doesn't want the association of the thousands of devotees who come to visit the temple every year. He only criticizes, and no one listens to him. How does that help anything?

"Our ISKCON should be taken as being a family based upon love and trust, so as the father becomes unhappy when one of his children wishes to break family connections I also become unhappy when there is difficulties within our ISKCON family. So please do not consider leaving as you are spiritual children of mine."
Letter to: Isana, Vibhavati -- Calcutta 21 September, 1970

Also, I don't think your quoted conversation supports your argument. To me it says that he is saying to bring students whether established devotees or newcomers. That means making more members, whereas devotees leaving ISKCON is the opposite of Srila Prabhupada's desire.

"Rupa Goswami says that the things are enthusiasm, patience, conviction, acting exactly to the order of the Sastra and Guru, and always keeping oneself in the society of devotees, and this makes our devotional service successful. So our serious students should follow Rupa Goswami's advice."
Letter to: Giriraja -- Los Angeles 8 June, 1972

Enthusiasm means to be eager to perform devotional service and to have devotee association. Patience means that if a favorable outcome is not coming quickly, one should remain enthusiastic and continue one's duty. Conviction means to firmly believe that by following this method, Krishna will be pleased and give a favorable outcome in due course of time.

"Anyone who is Krsna conscious let us live together. We are also living together in a house -- we are eating, we are sleeping, doing this, but everything in a society of devotees. Just like if you want to do some business if you become a member of the association, stock selling exchange, you can do better business."
Room Conversation -- November 4, 1973, Delhi

Srila Prabhupada is saying here that by acting as a member of a devotee association, which means an organization, one can perform better service.

"Maya is so subtle that even if one is able to avoid hearing about sex, money, and atheists, and even if one joins a society of devotees, one may still become a victim of pride and hypocrisy. One may think, "I am a better devotee than the others," and thus prepare oneself for a fall."
NBS 64

Here Srila Prabhupada says that thinking oneself a better devotee than the others is to prepare oneself for a fall. That is exactly what I described as my experience, and is the mood of a person who leaves ISKCON thinking it dysfunctional.

"The spiritually powerful message of Godhead can be properly discussed only in a society of devotees, and it is greatly pleasing to hear in that association."
NBS 63

Indeed devotee association is very pleasing, ideal environment for discussing Krishna's pastimes and advancing in Krishna consciousness. Therefore I humbly beg anyone who has left ISKCON to kindly return and see how nice it is, and anyone who is thinking of leaving to please stay. Give us your merciful association.

Prabhupada: "If I say that "I am ISKCON," what is the wrong there? Because I have created this; therefore I say, "ISKCON means I. I am ISKCON."

Hare Krishna.

Pandu Prabhu, have you read 1984 from Orwell? I recommend it to you :)

Here is a summary of its concepts:

PERMANENT WAR against Maya twisting the meaning to "anything that is against the institution"
MINISTRY OF TRUTH spread lies to suit its strategic goals in the name of spreading KC, constantly failing sattvic principles and lacking historic memory (see Zonal Acarya era)
INFALLIBLE LEADER posing as infallible when so many gross mistakes being made and still.
THOUGHT POLICE, the "little Prabhus" denouncing any "deviation" as a thought crime punishable with death (or exile, or excommunion, same thing)
So powerful was the state's control over people's minds in "1984" that, eventually, everyone came to love Big Brother. Perhaps in time we all will, too.

Deena & Mishra,

Hare Krishna.

Perhaps if you were running ISKCON everything would be perfect (according to your idea of it). Personally, I just want to have devotee association to help me remember Krishna, to have a temple I can bring my family to visit, such simple things. What can you offer? E-mail and Internet conferences are rather impersonal. I like to see more than a few hundred pixel photo when talking with someone. If you want to talk about a personal relationship with Krishna, well five days after I began studying Bhagavad-gita As It Is, Krishna gave me His darshana during which He personally told me to get some association of His devotees. Krishna practically means Krishna and His devotees.

For those who are not participating in ISKCON, how many temples have you established? Which festivals are you conducting each year? Does your book distribution exceed the ISKCON devotees'? How can I teach my kids to appreciate Krishna consciousness if I follow the example of so many naysayers and sit around and complaining all the time while doing nothing substantial to establish Krishna conscious centers? What do you do besides stew in envy of ISKCON's leaders, wishing you were in their place? You can't even go out and preach properly. When I was upset with ISKCON some teenage boys came up to me seeing my tilak and sikha, and asked me about the local temple. There was hardly anything I could say. "Oh, they're all demons," won't attract anyone.

In an e-mail I was cc'd on recently one devotee recently asked a critic of what alternative there is to ISKCON where he can get devotee association and some prasadam, and the critic devotee went into a long rant about a conflict he had with the leadership sixteen years ago. It was obvious that he was avoiding the question, and that in those sixteen years the critics have done nothing to establish centers of Krishna consciousness. I know of none anywyere, what to speak of in every town and villiage or even one near me. "But, not to worry," he says, "Krishna will soon be sending nuke bombs to kill all these Mayavadhi (sic.) serpents and their demoniac leaders!" THEN perhaps the real heros will emerge, but I'm not holding my breath waiting.

I'm happy to offer my respectful obeisances to anyone chanting Hare Krishna, but I'm still waiting for the critics to do something of value. In the mean time, I'm going to continue to offer my support to those who have some credibility as devotees, those who have enough humilty to function nicely in devotee relationships and to inspire others.

I prefer to chant Hare Krishna and discuss Krishna with a few selected devotees rather than supporting totally dysfunctional projects, and no, I am not afraid of being alone as a consequence of saying things as I see them. I am proud of reinventing myself everyday, questioning everything every single day. That is the only way to advance and not to become a "happy" stagnant coward mediocre fellow.
I accept challenge, bring them on! :)

hvm said:
"I did not expect people to totally reject organizational development. Please close the discussion if its going to turn into another useless battle of dry logic and Prabhupada quotes."

rather, let's please close any discussion that does not honor the use of logic and
is not supportable by scriptural quotes, of which Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami
must be recognized as one of the foremost exponents. woe be unto any guru
whose disciples would have it other ways.

What about dedication to a personal relationship to Krsna within an organised institution whom you are dedicated to....I am sure this is also possible is it not?

Priority depends on which religion you choose to follow. If it's organisation religion you have to dedicate to that organization. If you choose Chaitanya religion you must stay with Krishna.