I get your point. But do Vaisnava acharyas do that?

Who knows exactly what is going on in Hungary? I live in Australia. I've heard enough rumours, second-hand information, and distorted perceptions / interpretations about things that I do to know that unless I'm there seeing it for myself over an extended period of time, I don't know what's going on.

If we want to talk theoretically or generally, there have been many groups who have cloistered themselves away from the world. The Amish are one, for example. Some accounts paint them as an abusive cult, some are more generous. Of course there are many different Amish communities, each with its own "ordnung", or smrti-sastra governing the community.

The Amish have a tradition of "rumspringer". Children are kept separate from the "English" (the outside world - "karmis" in ISKCON-ese) until they reach adolescence. At 16 they go out into the world to experience it first-hand, then elect to stay out, or return to the community.

From what I've read they have a reasonably high retention rate.

Sorry I am talking about the same community. Children of the devotees are not allowed to play with children of devotees who live in the temple. It is not about isolated community, its about isolation within one community.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]I was a bit shocked to learn that in the Hungarian ISKCon farm children who are part of the Gurukula are not allowed to play with kids of other devotees who live outside of the temple. [/quote]

IMO it is just another poorly designed social experiment. Iskcon gurukulas were a disaster on a lot of levels and I'm afraid some people have not learned much from these mistakes.

Btw. where can I find some 'official' sources on that policy?

This isolation is not going to make them devotees because it is not chosen by kids, it is imposed on them, so naturally they will be curious to know about the life outside of community and once they grow up they would like to experience it. ISKCON Hungary shouldn't try to convert human kids into robots which follow certain programme which is inserted in their memory.

Do you mean that the enforced segregation of inferior and superior kind of devotee kids prepares the parent for the "eat-or-be-eaten" attitude?

P.S. And I do realize that such an elitist attitude excludes people who are somewhere in between, like myself. But how else are we going to become serious, unless there are some real, immediately tangible negative consequences for our indecision?
Being warned that perhaps one will not realize Krishna or that one will fall into some lower species of life doesn't really cut it, for many people.

On the one hand, devotional service cannot be forced.
On the other hand, leniency doesn't really help either.

Baker I understand what you are saying. However I do not agree, in my experience the opposite is true -- good community will welcome 'congregational' devotees as more advanced, because it is harder to be fully Krishna conscious if you live 'in the world'. In fact the more engagement and interaction is given to those devotees who live outside the better is the standard. And yes leniency does help, especially towards the less advanced 'temple devotees' who are more than often unable to perform basic tasks of human existence and if left 'outside' immediately get swallowed by the energy of maya, if they were so fixed up you would not have to keep them segregated would you?

The real reason for segregation I see is that these new devotees (who in this case live in the temple and pretend to be brahmanas) as so unstable that if an outside kid would play with the kids who have no hot water, no electricity and no tv the situation will become difficult to them to withstand. Now if you are unsteady you need some support like that for you to keep being austere pretender. But it is only if you have a higher taste that you will be able to be austere in the material world.

I actually appreciate that you think you are in-between, that means you are already disinterested in the material enjoyment and ready to receive the higher taste process, that by the way is not dependent on social conventions or social pressure. In other words you are a steady devotee or a candidate for a devotee (whatever you prefer to think).

That is actual 'elitism' of bhakti, the elitism of devotees who can practice bhajana and serve Prabhupada regardless of the material situation they are in, not those who have to stimulate themselves by false material (look like spiritual) prestige.

In fact I trust this falsity was inherited by Sivarama svami from his siksa guru and trainer, Bhagavan goswami. Bhagavan was expert in false divisions, politics and making people feel special without actually giving them nistha. How could he give something to others that he did not have himself. Elitism substitute for true nistha is rather laughable, as is this case of the false varnasrama.

You're only going to get sick from taking cold baths if you don't have a warm room to go in afterwards.

Of course, I don't know if the same would apply with kids. I remember taking cold baths when I was younger and it never bothered me.

CCD -

I think you have a very compassionate view of the situation. I am sure some people would say that such a compassionate view actually supports people in becoming or remaining lazy and spoiled.
I am now undecided on the matter whether it indeed does or not, or in what ways.

I have always thought that compassion, love, friends, understanding ... are luxuries - and that in life, one must not rely on luxuries, but instead see to it that one manages to get by without them. Blatant examples of elitism like the one in the OP are reminders of this attitude and reinforce it.

Haridas:

[quote]

Kyros:

You're only going to get sick from taking cold baths if you don't have a warm room to go in afterwards.

Of course, I don't know if the same would apply with kids. I remember taking cold baths when I was younger and it never bothered me.

Did you live in Hungary or somewhere with a similar climate? Did you have central heating? Even with fires it gets pretty cold without central heating.
[br][br]
Were you kept separate from the rest of society and not allowed to see other children, make your own mind up etc? Were you deprived of an ordinary childhood to the extent that you were simply incapable of integrating into society in later life? Because that's what's going to happen here.

This is tantamount to child abuse, if that's not already happening.[/quote]

Hungaries climate is nothing special. I didn't have central heating, but I did have a heater, and you should stick near the fire.
[br][br]
Everything else about your post is irrelevant to my comment. Please don't make assumptions.

>I think you have a very compassionate view of the situation. I am sure some people would say that such a compassionate view actually supports people in becoming or remaining lazy and spoiled.
I am now undecided on the matter whether it indeed does or not, or in what ways.

Hm... you got me thinking there. I do see so many of my friends who are congregational to bits, get spoiled, mainly due to bad association and poor japa. Lets develop your line of thinking. What do you propose?

Baker:

[quote]

Haridas:

Baker, read Prabhupada's books and carry out his instructions. All you're doing is making stuff up, crazy stuff. Stick to the message, but adapt for changing circumstances, it's not rocket science.

"Stick to the message, but adapt for changing circumstances, it's not rocket science." - Oh? And what exactly does that mean? As many devotees as I would ask, I would probably get a different answer each time. I am sure the powers that be in Hungary believe they are "sticking to the message and adapting to changing circumstances".[br][/quote]

Baker:

[quote]

Haridas:

Baker, read Prabhupada's books and carry out his instructions. All you're doing is making stuff up, crazy stuff. Stick to the message, but adapt for changing circumstances, it's not rocket science.

"Stick to the message, but adapt for changing circumstances, it's not rocket science." - Oh? And what exactly does that mean? As many devotees as I would ask, I would probably get a different answer each time. I am sure the powers that be in Hungary believe they are "sticking to the message and adapting to changing circumstances".[br][/quote]

Yes, the circumstances have changed so that now they are running a cult.

Read your posts, read them clearly and with a discerning mind. Do you really think that these little children should be treated like this? I think you have no knowledge of Iskcon history.

Haridas:

Read your posts, read them clearly and with a discerning mind. Do you really think that these little children should be treated like this?

I have never suggested that they should be treated like this. I have only pointed out that open elitism does have some advantages.[br]
CCD and I have been having an ongoing discussion about elitism throughout several threads. Perhaps you are not familiar with this, so you view this exchange differently.
[br][br]

I think you have no knowledge of Iskcon history.

I think I do have some.

In short, I think it comes down whether one believes that two people who are not equals in their devotional status, can be friends.

Sure, one can be friendly to anyone.

But friendship is reserved for those who are equals, have comparable mutual interest in eachother, and are able to act on it, do you not think so?


If a devotee does not eat the food you prepare, but you eat the food they prepare, do you consider that the two of you are or can be friends?


I would hope that someone who wishes me to believe they are my friend would care about me enough to inquire what I understand by "being friends".

To recap:

CCD said - "I do see so many of my friends who are congregational to bits, get spoiled, mainly due to bad association and poor japa. Lets develop your line of thinking. What do you propose?"

I suppose the question is - How can one best inspire and support people in their Krishna consciousness?

I suggested that a part of the problem for some beginners or slower ones falling away from the practice is that the more advanced devotees are sending them mixed messages, ie. on the one hand being very lenient, very acceptant, offering much praise, making friendship with themselves seem easy, seeming very open and approachable, and on the other hand strictly discriminating and maintaing boundaries. Mixed messages confuse people and can undermine their motivation.
I then suggested that open elitism does away with the first part of that mixed message, this is the advantage of elitism.

The perhaps downside of open elitism is that it sends out the message "You have to see to it yourself somehow that you reach a high enough level of service before we will even just consider whether you are eligible to visit us". This certainly makes some people feel aggressively excluded and may make them resentful against Krishna consciousness and devotees.


Maybe the cunundrum is unavoidable, and every person has to solve it for themselves, however they can.
But maybe there is an institutional solution to it as well.

I am not sure we're talking about friendship... you don't have to be on equal terms to be part of the circle (with fuzzy edges). In fact you can see many equal sub-groups in the same level of a status, like hindu congregation equal but separate from temple brahmacaris or traveling sankirtan boys or another yet separate entity, brahmacarini asram, and ye another, vanaprastha preaching group or asrama. All rather different groups (ideally separate to a good degree) but on the equal footing of being part of the group with fuzzy edges. I think this term 'fuzzy edges' is a good term when applied to membership of small religious groups. High standards (of the core group) and fuzzy edges that extend the membership far and wide, without compromising the all applicable high standard. ysccd

If you find time, pls listen to the three classes under the link by Madhavananda Prabhu, disciple of HH. Gour Govinda Maharaja.  Demons in the disguise of congregational devotees. Discusses crooked wranglers too.

http://audio.iskcondesiretree.info/index.php?q=f&f=%2F03_-_ISKCON_Prabhujis%2FHis_Grace_Madhavananda_Prabhu%2FDemons+in+the+Guise+of+Devotees

hare krishna

You once said devotees weren't trained to deal with the Catholic guilt trip - but perhaps you are after all!

My experience from Christianity is that belief in God shouldn't be about any kind of gains or blessings anyway. That it is wrong to actually desire salvation, or desire to know God, or to desire material gains, or to desire peace of mind, or happiness. Basically, I came away with the conviction that belief in God is about literally glorifying nothing - but woe is them who don't manage that. That one must somehow get oneself to the point where one can love God while having no notions of God's name, form, qualities, anything. And that when scriptures do speak of some personal aspects of God, or how God loves everyone and everyone is dear to God - that these are just some nice things that are supposed to be said, and that it should go without saying that nobody takes them seriously nor should they be.

In effect, I still believe that, as perverted as it may seem.


I think a big problem in religion is what can be called being "institutionalized" - in the sense that people become institutionalized, they align themselves with the institution, losing their personal identity. There is a poignant scene on this in the film "The Shawshank Redemption", for example. Over time, prisoners and people in similar institution-like situations lose all sense of freedom about their basic functions as persons, physical, mental, spiritual. Having to ask permission for whatever they wish to do and fearing the consequences of not doing so becomes their nature. Some such prisoners prefer to remain imprisoned for fear that they have become incapacitated to ever be able to function outside of the prison/institution again.

Religions/churches can be like that as well. When they are not about love for God, nor desiring blessings, nor about the power of some individuals. It's a kind of a very sophisticated, elaborate group insanity that claims have something to do with God ...

Everyone should value themselves, God and everyone else enough to aspire to become a full moon, right? :)