Social: [Closed] The "I am a Prabhupada disciple" card

Pandu das:Kyros, I don't see where it says that after accepting a person as guru, everything he says and does has to be corroborated with sastra.

It's the very first sentence.

"If you accept somebody as guru, then you have to corroborate it whether sastra says that he is guru or any saintly person says that he is guru."

Here's another interesting quote.

""Sadhu-sastra-guru: one has to test all spiritual matters according to the instructions of saintly persons, scriptures and the spiritual master. The spiritual master is one who follows the instructions of his predecessors, namely the sadhus, or saintly persons. A bona fide spiritual master does not mention anything not mentioned in the authorized scriptures. Ordinary people have to follow the instructions of sadhu, sastra and guru. Those statements made in the sastras and those made by the bona fide sadhu or guru cannot differ from one another." [Srimad-Bhagavatam 4:16:1 Purport]

And another

"A guru is a bona fide spiritual master who follows sadhu and sastra. Guru means abiding by the injunction of the sastra. Guru is in the disciplic succession, one who is strictly following the footsteps of the sad-gosvamis and is speaking strictly on the basis of sastra.

So many unauthorized persons are presenting themselves as guru, but one must be very careful. Guru does not manufacture any rules and regulation. He refers to the sastra. In order to know who is a qualified spiritual master, corraborate with sadhu and sastra. Sadhu confirms the scriptures and guru accepts the scripture; they are never in disagreement."[Srila Prabhupada Lecture, 11-13-72, Vrindaban]

It looks that a 'disciple' is seen only as the person who was 'initiated' by someone. So if someone was initiated by Prabhupada - he is "Prabhupada disciple", at least we use it like that in ISKCON. It leads to confusion - that to become Prabhupada disciple one needs to be initiated by him. History of ISKCON and splinter groups shows that the act of initiation has often little to do with actually becoming a disciple, statistically. The ritvik camp is only concerned with this 'initiation'. Prabhupada on the other hand would see "his dsiciple" as one who is following him, regardless who gave him the formal 'initiation'. This connection is solid and not in the air and there is no need of some apasampradaya forms of diksa such as ritvikism. We all in ISKCON are Prabhupada disciples, if only we can live up to it.

ccd: Yes, this is siksa. And it's prominent in our line, no one objects about it. This doesn't mean diksa should be given up. There's no "either-or", both are there.

PurushaVyaghra:

>>there is no need of some apasampradaya forms of diksa such as ritvikism. We all in ISKCON are Prabhupada disciples, if only we can live up to it.

> CCD, I fully agree with you.

Fine that you agree that ritvikism as not needed.

> Formal initiation is not of much importance, really important is living upto Srila Prabhupada's instructions as you said and that makes us his disciples.

However, both are needed. Some of us are diksa+siksa disciples of SP, some are his siksa disciples. Both of us are expected to follow him and to please him. One thing he was very wary were "fratricidal wars".

> But when they try to replace Srila Prabhupada completely, and they claim that new devotees can not have any connection with Srila Prabhpada and it has to be via them only because they are physically present and Srila Prabhupada is physically absent, this does not feel very right.

Whom do you mean? I don't remember meeting any SP diksa disciple serving as initiating guru promoting this idea. They always put SP before them as far as siksa goes: "read Prabhupada's books". Even gurus who wrote their own books didn't forbid reading SP's books.

> But this planting does not happen just by sitting next to fire and throwing some grains in fire.

No one claims that fire yajna is an essential part of diksa. It's like a boost for diksa, so to say, a ceremonial vow engraving the diksa in the heart of the disciple (the function of samskara). BSST introduced it to show that we follow both bhagavata and pancaratrika paths.

Veda:>>Yes, this is siksa. And it's prominent in our line, no one objects about it.

It is not true. We have a system of hierarchy based on Diksha in ISKCON. If siksha would be really prominent as you claim we wouldn't have this wrestling in courts among Ritvik devotees and Gurus.

>But when they try to replace Srila Prabhupada completely, and they claim that new devotees can not have any connection with Srila Prabhpada and it has to be via them only because they are physically present and Srila Prabhupada is physically absent, this does not feel very right.
>>I don't remember meeting any SP diksa disciple serving as initiating guru promoting this idea.

Is it so hard to understand that this conflict is a struggle for identity. Ritviks have seen enough fall downs and scandals of Uttama Adhikari ISKCON Gurus. They want to be identified as related to Srila Prabhupada not as related to present Gurus. Whereas present Gurus are not ready to share this title of "Prabhupada Disciple" with them. You might say Shiksha is more prominent but that is only theoretically in practical life in ISKCON 'Prabupada disciple' is only the person who was initiated by Srila Prabhupada before Nov. 1977.

Guru camp has collected some quotes from scriptures to support their idea and ritviks don't have much support from scriptures so they have got some letters written by Srila Prabhupada and some of his quotes so they can go on and on and on. There will be no end to it.

If they would be really following the principle of Shiksha, they won't be wrestling in the courts. It is true what CCD says: "We all in ISKCON are Prabhupada disciples, if only we can live up to it."

Hari Bol.

CCD:>>
"Prabhupada never used term 'siksa disciple' or 'diksa disciple' - disciple is a disciple.
One can have quite a few siksa gurus, but still you are just a dsciple (not diksa disciple, skisa disciple or vartma-pradarsaka disciple...disciple is a disciple). This caste system of Prabhupada disciples and 'others' should be stopped"

Yes, I really don't understand why people keep dividing disciplehood in between siksa and diksha. Devotees are reading Srila Prabhupada's books, trying to mould their lives according to his instructions. It is natural that they feel emotional towards Srila Prabhupada, there is nothing wrong in it but some people will never forget to tell these devotees that they are only siksha disciples.

CCD:>>
"It is obvious that the whole reason for ritvik apasampradaya is because for some (not very clear to me) reason getting diksa from Prabhupada was (or still is) considered to be better then one who is initiated by his disciple. Explain to me why is it better? I do not accept it."

I can not answer this question as I am not a ritvik yet however my guess is:

1) During Zonal Acharya system, Gurus were worshipped as good as God but later their scandals were revealed and there were many fall downs so Ritviks feel insulted in being a disciple of present Gurus, may be they consider them reliable. An anecdote:

Charlie's wife died last night. All the neighbours came to his house in the morning. They were weeping and crying. Everyone was crying except for Charlie. Surprised neighbours asked "Charlie, your wife has died, why are you not crying?" She is a very big lier and can not be trusted, replied Charlie. If she will not get up after 3 days only then I will consider her dead, replied Charlie.

2) Once someone takes Diksha in ISKCON, it affects each and every aspect of disciple's life. Guru governs each and every decision of disciple's life. For example, to whom he or she will get married, what service he or she will do, in which city or temple he or she will live etc. etc. etc. Sometimes things get so complicated in these issues that disciples even return the initiation beads back to their Guru and gurus get rejected. Whereas Ritvikism offers more freedom and saves the disciple from all these hassles. However ISKCON authorities have understood this problem, and recently Anuttama Prabhu conducted Guru Seminars, some workshops in which he was training ISKCON gurus, how to handle this type of situations and how to become better Gurus. Detailed reports of these seminars are there on ISKCON news website.

CCD:>>
"It is obvious that the whole reason for ritvik apasampradaya is because for some (not very clear to me) reason getting diksa from Prabhupada was (or still is) considered to be better then one who is initiated by his disciple. Explain to me why is it better? I do not accept it."

When you use the word apasampradaya, I don't really know if your mentality is to condemn ritviks or not, but I have read that some Gurus condemn Ritviks very heavily. If they get so angry and excited it only shows that they are under the modes of passion and ignorance. How devotees can worship someone who is under the modes of passion, as good as God, as a Guru. When Gurus condemn Ritviks, they not only condemn Ritviks but they condemn themselves as well.

CCD:>>
Unless you embrace this understanding there will be no way to stop ritvik apasampradaya -- replace Prabhupada disciple card with "good disciple

I am grateful to you for this advice and will try my best to be a good disciple. But I am not in a position to decide if Ritviks are apasampradaya or not. I have not read their documents and haven't studied this issue in detail. I tried once but I found this issue to be very time consuming because it is full of letters, historical evidences etc. and I never was able to spare that much time. What I understood was "there is a glass which is half full of water." One party is saying it is half full while other is saying that it is half empty." I don't think so they will ever come to a conclusion.

What I would like to see is that they should come to at least that much understanding, so that this wrestling which is going on in courts can be stopped. They have killed the Krsna Consciousness of all these people ( judges, lawyers etc) who were involved in this litigation. There is no hope for these people to become Krsna Conscious in this life time. And many other people as well who came to know through media, how devotees are fighting with each other. They are draining precious resources provided by krsna in this court cases. It is very disturbing to see what is going on.

Hari Bol.

CCD:>> that is how you purify yourself from the contact with such evil things.

You call Ritvikism evil and so do many other ISKCON leaders and Gurus. They have been doing this for last 10 years. But ritvikism has not died rather it has become more popular. Don't you think so there is some fundamental flaw in this approach towards ritvikism. The more they criticise and condemn, it is getting more popular. I think unconsciously they themselves have helped the very cause of Ritvikism.

Further, I think you are prejudiced against ritvikism. It has never been tried, never been implemented not tested anywhere in ISKCON. The temples where it has been implemented like Bangalore, they have come out to be extremely successful. So what are your basis of calling it evil?I Please provide some evidence of the evil nature of Ritvikism.

If some systems deserves to be called evil, I think that can only be the present Guru system. There are hundred little ISKCONs within one ISKCON. I have changed several countries, whereever I went I found devotees covered by a strong shell of some Swami, it is very hard to break this shell and be a part of community because one is not their God-brother or God-sister. They have their private Vyasa-pujas and disciples of other gurus are not allowed there, they have their private retreats open only to a certain group of devotees. This really divides the community of devotees and can be called evil. I have lived it and I have experienced it.

On the other hand, just imagine Ritvik system, wherever you go there is only one Guru, no different groups with their politics and everyone is your relative, Godbrother or Godsister and one can become part of them. Like it was in those days when Srila Prabhupada was present. It actually feels to me a very good idea. I feel thrilled, when I close my eyes and imagine this situation that all boundaries have been broken, every devotee is related to me and I am related to devotees, there are no private vyasa pujas, no private retreats of different groups and I can be part of any group. It is so beautiful but alas it is just an imagination, just a dream. I feel Ritvikism is the only way this dream can become a reality.

I feel surprised when you call it evil. Dear CCD, please elaborate, as I am very confused why do you call it evil?

I am not 100% sure, if Srila Prabhupada ordered this Ritvik system or not, I haven't dived deeply into this issue yet. But I would surely try to spend some time in researching more about the facts about it.

Thank you.

Hari Bol.

Veda:>>
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

You are carrying too much unnecessary luggage of false knowledge on your head. I don't know how much you are attached to it but my humble advice is that your journey towards back to Godhead could be much smoother if somehow you could throw this luggage away.

>>that is how you purify yourself from the contact with such evil things.
>>Evil means against g-s-s.

You have been taught how to hate others by those who claim to carry love of Godhead in their hearts. It is a strange phenomenon, never heard before, never seen before. No wonder you claim that it comes from g-s-s.

>>Christianity is basically a form of ritvikism. There are over 3000 competing groups, some quite inimical of others. So much for the unity.

We have tried different versions of Guruship by hierarchy based on Diksha for last 30 years and the end result is chaos. Srila Prabhupada ordered Ritvik system so we need to try it at least once and see the end result who knows it might work very well for our society. I do not see any point in being worried that if it hasn't worked for Christianity, it will not work for us as well. We have tried one and now we need to try Ritvik system and check the end result and keep the one which is better for society.

>>How to measure a success in the first place?
How do you measure health? When there is no disease in the body, it is healthy body. Same goes with the sociey. At present body of our ISKCON society is full of diseases, for example:

1) Dead Book distribution
2) Empty temples except for Sunday when Hindu devotees come for program.
3) In UK, ISKCON has officially declared itself as leader of Hindus and identifies itself with one group
4) Different camps of devotees

the list can go on.

Ritvik system keeps Srila Prabhupada and his teachings in the centre and these diseases can only be cured if Srila Prabhupada is kept in centre of our activities. Why some people are so much against it, I can understand the logic that they consider it against g-s-s, but when they call it evil and spread hate against devotees who are in favor of this idea, that makes me doubt "Are they really lovers of g-s-s or do they have some other motives?"

I am grateful to you for considering my opinion on this matter and in the end I pay my humble obeisances to Lord Sri Krsna who resides in everyone's heart (whether Ritvik or Paramparavadi) as Lord Paramatama.

Hari Bol.

PurushaVyaghra:Veda:>> Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today...

You are carrying too much unnecessary luggage of false knowledge on your head. I don't know how much you are attached to it but my humble advice is that your journey towards back to Godhead could be much smoother if somehow you could throw this luggage away.

"Only one who can learn the process of nescience and that of transcendental knowledge side by side can transcend the influence of repeated birth and death and enjoy the full blessings of immortality." [Sri Isopanisad 11]

>>that is how you purify yourself from the contact with such evil things. >>Evil means against g-s-s.

You have been taught how to hate others by those who claim to carry love of Godhead in their hearts. It is a strange phenomenon, never heard before, never seen before. No wonder you claim that it comes from g-s-s.

Evil things

>>that is how you purify yourself from the contact with such evil things. >>Evil means against g-s-s.

>>You have been taught how to hate others by those who claim to carry love of Godhead in their hearts. It is a strange phenomenon, never heard before, never seen before. No wonder you claim that it comes from g-s-s.

Kyros :>>Evil things

Kyros Prabhu, Please do not bite my finger, rather try to look where my finger is pointing.

Just read today's news paper(Sampradaya Sun) and came to know about Judeo-Christian war going on in ISKCON. It is very very important to stop listening to those people who teach to hate others.

I don't read Sampradaya Sun, to me it's "Sunprajalpa Sun."

I only want to read things relevant to my understanding, both material and metaphysical, and that website doesn't fulfill that. Though at times it does contain some information, but the amount of insults thrown back and forth is what drives me away.

Also, I don't think VEDA, ccd, nor me hate rtviks. What we do hate is when people twist around concepts and tradition without thinking them through. We don't hate the rtvik concept, because it is a bonafide way to initiate disciples. What we specifically don't like about this whole thing is that they want to push a post-humous rtvik system; that's it. I can understand why they would push for it, especially after all the falldown's and failures that have happened in the past 30-40 years, but that still doesn't make it right.

> You can not be hateful towards a group of people and loving towards another group of people. This is not possible.

You promote monism - "no good and bad". But this distinction is there even in nitya-lila. (I've just run into this while editing, NOD 30:)

Violence
When Kåñëa was fighting with the Käliya snake by dancing on his heads, Käliya bit Kåñëa on the leg. At that time Garuòa became infuriated and began to murmur, "Kåñëa is so powerful that simply by His thundering voice the wives of Käliya have had miscarriages. Because my Lord has been insulted by this snake, I wish to devour him immediately, but I cannot do so in the presence of my Lord, because He may become angry with me." This is an instance of eagerness to act in ecstatic love as a result of dishonor to Kåñëa.
When Çiçupäla objected to the worship of Kåñëa in the Räjasüya arena at a sacrifice organized by Mahäräja Yudhiñöhira, Sahadeva, the younger brother of Arjuna, said, "A person who cannot tolerate the worship of Kåñëa is my enemy and is possessed of a demoniac nature. Therefore I wish to strike my left foot upon his broad head, just to punish him more strongly than the wand of Yamaräja!" Then Baladeva began to lament like this: "Oh, all auspiciousness to Lord Kåñëa! I am so surprised to see that the condemned descendants of the Kuru dynasty, who so unlawfully occupied the throne of the Kuru kingdom, are criticizing Kåñëa with diplomatic devices. Oh, this is intolerable!" This is another instance of eagerness caused by dishonor to Kåñëa.

The love of a madhyama devotee may also look like a hate if aimed against adharma. If he wouldn't love the person in the grip of adharma, he couldn't care less what the person does or believes. Therefore many of our acaryas defeated apasiddhantas. BSST even has this characteristic in his pranama mantra - rupanuga-viruddha apasiddhanta dhvanta harine. He's the destroyer of darkness created by deviations from the path of Rupa Gosvami.

Hare Krsna

From the history of GV we see that apasiddhantas appeared already quite early after the tirobhava of Sri Caitanya. So it's not the case of some mass degradation but few deviant persons here and there starting apasampradayas taking advantage of ignorant, frustated, sentimental etc. people. One could say - good, they are punished for their foolishness. But acaryas don't want anyone to suffer the consequences of falling into adharma and thus actively suppress those deviations by their strong preaching. Their hate is not aimed against people but against deviations and aparadhas stemming from them. The line is drawn by g-s-s, where else.

Hare Krsna

Ritvik idea is real and those who carry it and spread are called ritvikists. That can't be denied, sorry.

By strong preaching I mean esp. the writings and talks by BVT and BSST. Also SP is strongly against deviations and his disciples shouldn't give in to them. Otherwise the future is bleak.

At least I don't call anyone evil. Even Krsna says 'asura bhava asritah', 'persons taking shelter of asuric mentality', not 'asuras' themselves.

I hope this exchange was of some help to someone. Hare Krsna.

Madhudvisha: His question was that can you take
initiation by accepting the spiritual master in your
heart without actually taking...

Prabhupada: This is a bogus proposition. It has no
meaning. If you think within yourself, “I am eating,” will
you be satisfied? If you starve and simply think, “I have
eaten everything.” Is that a very practical proposal? You
must eat. We don’t say all these bogus propositions.

— Lecture in Melbourne, on 21 May 1975

Hare Krishna Pandu Prabhu

Just as you, I was fortunate to recieve the mercy of Srila Prabhupada through his books especially Bhagavad Gita As it is. An atheist that I was, Prabhupada was instrumental in turning my life around some 11 years back. Therefore I am committed and attached to Srila Prabhupada and his words.

From my studies of Guru, Sadhu, and Shastra based on SP books, I am 100% convinced that Srila Prabhupada did not intend an indefinite ritivk system to carry on within ISKCON for the next 10,000 years. If he wanted a ritivik system which is not ordinary course of action, I can bet he would have mentioned it clearly among the many rules and standards he set for ISKCON not at his death bed but way before. Srila Prabhupada mentions that this Krishna Con movement will go on for the next 10,000 years. We just have to cooperate and push on the movement. Having such a grand vision for ISKCON for 10,000 years, Srila Prabhupada did not exclusively and categorically mention about ritivik system for the next 10,000 years in his July 9 letter or any where else. The letter being a primary evidence for ritivik supporters does not without doubt establish ritivik initiations as standard operating procedure for the next 10,000 years within ISKCON. On the contrary, SP has so many times extolled the importance, value and primary necessity of taking shelter of a personal guru, getting initiated by him, and serving him in ardent submissivness through his books, and lectures. In fact, his whole life, his journey to the west, and his establisment of ISKCON is such an offering of Guru Dakshina thus establising the significance of Guru Parampara. The July 9 letter, therefore in my humble opinion, cannot be seen in an isolated way removing the personality or as a standard operating procedure that was intended for ISKCON for the next 10,000 years. It does not say that and is not clear.

While I say this, I also have to recognize and mention the colossal failure from the Guru system within ISKCON thus creating so much stress, anxiety and doubts among the loyal devotees of Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON. This is sad and depressing and that which requires serious enquiry. Enquiry not external but internal. Guru fall down, and so many other issues is simply a result of Vaishnava apradha stemming from immature and superficial performance of sadhana and adherance to Guru vakya this resulting in chaos in the lives of many. Taking shelter of ritivkism is not the solution. It is, in my opinion, another deviation closely imaging mayavadism. While it may sound and even feel correct as there is not personal accountability to a living guru, it sounds like the best fit solution to the ever existing problems within ISKCON. So the ritvik band wagon is convincing.

Anyways...Pandu prabhu, I can see you derive inspiration, and strength from direct association with Srila Prabhupada in his vani form. I salute you for that as you are a sincere soul and do not want to settle for anything less than pure. What value is there to intellectually prove our stance to everyone. Just as you are convinced, many are convinced to submit to a personal guru and serve them with SP books, instructions and guidance as the big picture. I do not think it is correct to measure up every living guru within ISKCON to Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada is a Vaikunta man...period...and all others especially the initiating Gurus (whoever is serious and sincere) are following in his footsteps. I do not see how they do not qualify as Gurus if their motivations, heart, words, actions and life is sincere, serious and without ulterior motives. I cannot speak for all Gurus but from my exposure, I am convinced some are really serious and do not have any ulterior motives and simply want to serve SP with all their heart and soul. Why should I not take shelter of them? They may not be beyond the modes of Material nature but surely they can help us connect us to SP in a sincere way...I am concinvced of this because they are sincere.

So the solution as I see it is to clean the sludge that has overflown within ISKCON by being the change agent ourselves and not bring an idea such as ritivik and think it will solve the problem. If we preach purity as the need of the hour, then we have to strive for purity ourselves. In my opinion, ISKCON as a whole is lacking such inspirational pure figures. There are some but not everyone is inspired.

It is one thing to be inspired by SP on a personal level and be attached to him and another to bring about systemic change within ISKCON when there is no categorical language supporting the same.

Prabhu, I did not write this to convince you but this is my position on this issue thus far.

Hare Krishna
Ananda Jagannath Das

Ananda Jagannath Prabhu,

Hare Krishna. So you're 100% convinced one way, and I'm approaching 100% convinced the other way. I'm happy with cooperating but the GBC doesn't agree though I'm not even challenging their right to initiate disciples (if someone wants to take their chance with them, what can I say?), only their right to stop Srila Prabhupada from initiating. They apparently don't even have an official position paper on the subject, having withdrawn theirs due to mistakes. Yet they won't allow devotees like me to remain ISKCON and follow what I understand to be Srila Prabhupada's order. I cannot discuss the issue with local devotees because I want my family to continue to be accepted as a part of the community. In a meeting last year, our GBC twice described rtvik supporters "enemies of ISKCON." It's a difficult situation. I'm continuing to serve with disciples of ISKCON gurus, but it's not at all satisfying compromising my integrity like this.

Srila Prabhupada's books are general instructions, but his July 9 letter was an order. Orders are to be followed even if they apparently contradict general instructions. If one considers the different categories of evidence, a dual-signed letter sent to all the TPs and GBCs near the end of his manifest pastimes beats practically anything. In the same category of evidence would be his Last Will, and that also supports the rtvik view. Funny I just realized that neither of these documents are subject to revision, unlike his books.

How initiations were to continue in ISKCON after Srila Prabhupada's disappearance are not specified in Srila Prabhupada's books; otherwise there would have been no need to question him about it on May 28, 1977. However they did ask him, and his immediate answer was officiating acarya a.k.a. rtvik acarya. The discussion that followed is ambiguous, and the tape has been forensically analyzed and found suspect, but I don't think anyone disputes the subject matter. The original question is clear: "Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you're no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted." The July 9 letter followed as promulgation of an official order, and the fact that it begins by referencing the May 28 conversation indicates that it addresses the same subject, specifically, how initiations are to be conducted _after Srila Prabhupada's disappearance_.

Hare Krishna.

Arkanand Prabhu,

Hare Krishna. I see that many devotees say that the rtvik method cannot be applied after Srila Prabhupada's disappearance. I don't see where Srila Prabhupada said that or where satra says that. They say it's about guru-sadhu-sastra, but they're asserting something that neither sastra nor guru says. It's "me and my sadhu friends" say so. You say that rtvik is a kind of mayavada theory, and I've heard others say that too, but I've never heard anyone explain how continuing to honor the Founder-Acarya's order for ongoing rtvik-assisted initiations in his society is mayavada. Do you actually understand mayavada philosophy? I studied it for years before Krishna and Srila Prabhupada rescued me. It is the philosophy that I am God but have apparently put myself into illusion. Honoring the acarya's order is not mayavada. However, "because I said so" is mayavada. Several devotees have told me that the rtvik method is wrong, but they have been unable to show how it is wrong based on Srila Prabhupada as the authority.

I have never said that the July 9 letter is the final order for the next 10,000 years. Srila Prabhupada can give another order if it is Krishna's will. I gave up mayavada because Krishna appeared to me fully animated in a painting and gave instruction, and I do not see any reason why Srila Prabhupada cannot do something similar if he so chooses. There is a murti of Srila Prabhupada in each ISKCON temple. Do you think that is Srila Prabhupada sitting there, or is it a statue? If it is Srila Prabhupada, why can he not give initiation if a rtvik performs the ceremony under his order? Of course, if he wants he can come down off his asana and do it himself, but he has ordered for rtviks to do it. Accepting this is not mayavada. It is faith.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]
Hare Krishna. I see that many devotees say that the rtvik method cannot be applied after Srila Prabhupada's disappearance. I don't see where Srila Prabhupada said that or where satra says that. [/quote]

-----------------

Pandu, eventually you will understand, that today's "ritviks" misunderstand Srila Prabhupada's instruction regarding officiating acaryas. True, Srila Prabhupada said: "Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas. ... Rtvik, yes."

But, Srila Prabhupada never said, that officiating acaryas will initiate devotees into Srila Prabhupada's direct disciples. This is extrapolation invented by today's so-called "ritviks", and is wrong. Today's "ritviks" are not really ritviks, officiating-acaryas, that Srila Prabhupada envisioned; they wrongly claim to be something, they are really not.

While "ritviks" today claim, that they follow Srila Prabhupada without doubting and interpretation, unfortunatly they wilfully ignore the following Srila Prabhupada's instruction regarding ritvik, officiating-acarya system:
==========
Tamäla Krsna: No, he's asking that these rtvik-äcäryas, they're officiating, giving diksä. Their... The people who they give diksä to, whose disciple are they?
Prabhupäda: They're his disciple.
Tamäla Krsna: They're his disciple.
Prabhupäda: Who is initiating. He is granddisciple.
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It is quite simple, once you let it sink in..... Ritvik system of officiating acaryas is set by Srila Prabhupada for all future, but, PLEASE NOTE, new disciples become disciples of ritvik initiator !!! That's the meaning of "granddisciple". Today's so-called "ritviks" completely ignore Srila Prabhupada on this point, and thus they give bad name to the real ritvik system of officiating acaryas, as implemented by Srila Prabhupada

On the other hand, clearly, GBC system of gurus is wrong, because they try to make paramahamsas where there is none. Even if this is not officially admited by GBC, one can see from interactions between GBC's Gurus and their disciples, that GBC's-Guru post somehow promotes one to a "higher level" of whatever.... GBC system is attempting to artificially create gurus, as are in detail described in Srila Prabhupada's books, and in absence of really qualified persons, GBC creates illusion of qualification for their gurus, and as result, what we get are ISKCON's Rock-star gurus.

It is clear that Srila Prabhupada set ritvik system for ISKCON, which was to work in absence of really qualified gurus. But, Srila Prabhupada didn't plan that everybody will be his diksa disciples forever. Ritviks were to initiate, and devotees would become theirs (ritvik's) disciples. And, naturally, when some ritvik guru (or other devotee) would become qualified as per description of guru in Srila Prabhupada's books, then he would naturally give more siksa to his disciples, and thus you would get more traditional guru-disciple relationship. But, in absence of qualified gurus, officiating-acarya system, as implemented by Srila Prabhupada, is perfect.

Nowadays "ritviks" are improperly implementing Srila Prabhupada's ritvik system of officiating-acaryas and their disciples. They seem to be a bit confused regarding diksa, and think in lines of diksa being all in all. Maybe some smarta contamination or something.... Whatever the reason, they are missing something, otherwise they would be able to understand, that disciple of ritvik becomes his (ritvik's) disciple, and Srila Prabhupada's granddisciple.

It will get fixed eventually, and GBC-system and ritvik-system will nicely coexist in cooperation, and eventually become ONE future guru system in ISKCON. It just may take some time, before they both become able to admit their own misunderstanding, and learn to see good in others. Right now both GBC-system and ritvik-proponent's-system are questionable, and can be considered as apasampradaya. But it will start getting cleared eventually, probably after this first generation of gurus (GBCs and "ritviks") moves on. Surely in the following few generations things will normalize.

Don't forget, ISKCON still has some 9500 years to go, which is a lot comparing to cca 2000 years of christianity. Plenty of time for qualified gurus to appear, and plenty of time to gain proper understandings. We just need to constantly expose ourselves to Srila Prabhupada's treatment, and we will be fine. :)

ys gnd

:gnd: > But, Srila Prabhupada never said, that officiating acaryas will initiate devotees into Srila Prabhupada's direct disciples.

Actually Prabhupada insisted a few times for new initiates to have guru-disciple relationship with devotees he deputed to be gurus. It is interesting that actually practically all devotees initiated in 1977 are not directly initiated by Prabhupada, yet they were given the Prabhupada disciple card (but not immediately, it happen only after a few years, they were actually serving their respective gurus for some years). It is at that point when some started to use the Prabhupada disciple card that the system established by Prabhupada started braking up. ??

Jaya sri krishna ,thank you pandu das and arkananda das prabhu for such interesting discussion and philosophical portrait of these different initiation conclusions and siddhanta's.When srila Prabhupada was in australia and new zealand many years ago ,one devotee named siddhaswarupa ananda swami had started initiating devotees .Even though he had accepted srila Ac bhaktivedanta swami as his guru,he had infact jioned iskcon with disciples and though a powerful personality was motivated to initiate even in srila Prabhupada's presence.He clashed with the then authority Madhudwisa swami,and a meeting was arranged to please both teams .Iskcon and the haribols as they were known.Srila Prabhupada informed siddha swarupanandana swami that it was not the proper vaishnava etiquette to infact initiate in the presence of ones guru.He asked him to bring the disciples to him personally ,thus fulfilling the requirements as a disciple.