Is it OK to use the title "His Divine Grace" for spiritual masters?

rasa108

I noticed recently that some disciples are using this title for their spiritual master...I seem to remember a GBC resolution about this - something about HDG being reserved for Srila Prabhupada and the use of "His Holiness" for sannyasis and "His Grace" for grhasta guru's being used instead of the title HDG....anyone have a reference for this?

ccd

The following resolution was passed by the GBC body at its AGM February 5th to
16th 1999:

"No one in ISKCON will be addressed either publically or privately with the
honorific titles “His Divine Grace” nor be addressed either publicly or
privately with the honorifics ending in “-pada” or “-deva”. Disciples may
address their ISKCON diksa or siksa gurus as “Gurudeva” or
“guru-maharaja"

----
Any help? (I hope this does not mean that His Divine Grace Acharyadeva is not okay, but HDG Acharyadev is fine:) I am not sure how to treat Grihastha gurus. I guess there can not be anything more honorable then Gurudeva anyway.

Kyros

Whats the defined difference between His Divine Grace, His Grace, and His Holiness?

tkd108

I like this point Kyros. What's the difference? Obviously, the GBC was trying to move away from the practice of elevating gurus to the level of Prabhupada... I have heard that there was a resolution that if a guru left his body in good standing he could have the title HDG. I do not have reference for this though. Perhaps someone else does.

rasa108

ccd:
The following resolution was passed by the GBC body at its AGM February 5th to
16th 1999:

"No one in ISKCON will be addressed either publically or privately with the
honorific titles “His Divine Grace” nor be addressed either publicly or
privately with the honorifics ending in “-pada” or “-deva”. Disciples may
address their ISKCON diksa or siksa gurus as “Gurudeva” or
“guru-maharaja"

Thanks for the quote ccd....I knew there was a resolution floating around somewhere :-)

ccd

[p]

rasa108:

Thanks for the quote ccd....I knew there was a resolution floating around somewhere :-)
[/p]for kyros and tkd:[p]
The terms are from churches use of them - "His Divine Grace" refers to Jesus Christ, one and only, His Holiness refers to Roman Catholic Pope & Coptic Orthodox Pope, head of the church (It was originally used for all bishops but, from the 7th century, it was only used for popes, patriarchs, in of certain Tibetan Buddhist lineages, and the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia.), "His Grace" and "Your Grace" is used in England and other English-speaking countries to address Roman Catholic archbishops and Eastern Orthodox bishops.. I guess I would never want, instruct or desire to be referred as "His Diving Grace"... sure road for... [/p]
[p]BTW Scottish monarchs were addressed as "Your Grace", before the Acts of Union of 1707, when Scotland became part of the Kingdom of UK. From then on, British (and Scottish) monarchs were addressed only as "Your Majesty" -- so His Grace is quite a title! [/p]
[p]Anyone disagrees?:-)[/p]

mishra

agreed, His Grace.. oppppps :)

Pandu das

That GBC resolution is meaningless because it's not enforced. Even worse, trying to enforce it where it's not wanted is a good way to get in trouble. I learned that the hard way.

Here's the full set of 1999 resolutions.
http://www.vnn.org/world/WD9903/WD31-3455.html
It's actually a pretty interesting set of resolutions. They come down hard on rtvikism, admit their errors in promoting the Zonal Acarya era and failing to keep Srila Prabhupada in the center, apologise to Pradyumna, put some boundries on fanatical guru worship, and more.

Considering all the serious mistakes they admitted to making, and the long time it took to realize and admit them, it's a wonder how they have the nerve to make some of the strong statements that are in these resolutions.

I love this part:
"It is therefore resolved THAT all ISKCON diksa and siksa gurus and other authorities are responsible to instruct initiated devotees and aspiring initiates in the above mentioned details of worship and see that they are implemented no later than Srila Prabhupada's Vyasa-puja celebration in 1999. After that time, devotees who fail to uphold these practices shall be subject to censure."

Therefore, if a devotee refers to his guru as His Divine Grace Srila XXXdeva or His Divine Grace Srila XXXpada, etc, it's the guru's fault for not instructing the disciple properly. So a disciple is thinking, "my guru is so great, he is perfect, etc.," and you come along and say, "Your guru was supposed to tell you that's not allowed. If he permits this degree of glorification, he's in contempt of ISKCON Law." According to ISKCON Law, the guru should be censured for allowing his disciples to over-glorify him, but in practice one will find that pointing out this "law" will get one labeled as an offender against the guru.

Pandu das

CCD says, "(I hope this does not mean that His Divine Grace Acharyadeva is not okay, but HDG Acharyadev is fine:)"

That's a tricky one.

HDG in this case can also mean "Hrdayananda das Gosvami," which is confusing, but ok. The Acaryadev part is prohibited, though obviously still quite common. I don't doubt that his disciples think of "HDG" as "His Divine Grace" when pertaining to their guru, but I'm not a mind-reader.

abhiram

I have heard "his divine grace" for sannyasis in lectures but i think they were from the 80s

ccd

Pandu das:
According to ISKCON Law, the guru should be censured for allowing his disciples to over-glorify him, but in practice one will find that pointing out this "law" will get one labeled as an offender against the guru.

Well its true to a degree. [p]

I know of one guru who instead of publicly using his -pada title would at the time just introduced second part of his pranama mantra, that starts with namo ... padaya and contains his name. In other words even if you forbid me using it everyone will call me this way![p]

A good one, bh. vince had: Who is you guru--Srilo Brillopad?:-) (google brillopad if you are not from UK)[p]

I personally feel offended when someone calls my guru with his -pada name, it is not his name anyway, in fact I am so uncomfortable with anyone who even uses Srila or Sri to the name of a guru, it reminds me the 80s. Aren't we lucky to have realistic addresses to gurus and sadhus? If only all gurus were humble and happy to follow it, instead of giving false ideas to their followers, it just fuels the ritvik camp.[p]

All glories to his divine grace tamala krishna goswami,srila gurudeva.This glorification was mandatory when i jioned up ,which was obviously during the so called Zonal Archarya days.......it became obsolete during the godbrother response-knee jerk ,over reaction coupled with several prominent guru fall downs which appeared.However i still personally feel that it is indeed necessary for the disciples to fully perceive their guru as fully representative of the sum total of demi-gods.

At present the formal guru-puja ceremony,solely for srila prabhupada seems a little impersonal and lacking.....in my humble opinion. Much seems lacking in devotional sobriety,etiquette and just proper interaction between younger and older devotees.Their is a certain impersonal aspect to things,where by the worldwide explosion of krishna conciousness is solely dependent on srila Prabhupada,bereft of his disciples huge individual offerings.I have been witness to thirty odd years of ISKCON directly after his divine grace personally left.Actually it has grown exponentially.In large part due to his foremost disciples continued service and world wide expansion.When i joined their was very poor temples and few devotees in the south pacific.WE OWNED LITTLE OR NO TEMPLES AND WERE LITERALLY POOR FINANCIALLY.We had a very small congregation and very little indian guests,and most guest were almost hippie in outlook.Now because of the servants of srila Prabhupada we are asset rich and thousands of regular guests.Now our indian congregation are supporting us ,and are also becoming fulltime devotees.

The complete turn around in financial and spiritual assets has meant that we are now a serious component in our communities.There is a perception that this is solely due to what our srila Prabhupada established however we had practically nothing when i joined up in 1979.....Now in new varshana alone it is a two hundred acre farm-community which is about to finish paying of a wonderful temple.Its own gurukula ect....Soon debt free and dynamically going forward every sunday..at least 200 guests approximately 30 to 50 regulars becoming full time devotees.Hence his disciples have indeed created and grown his legacy,just look in the back to godhead for the present list of iskcon temples.

Alchemical

>>>>yuga_avtar_dasa: "At present the formal guru-puja ceremony,solely for srila prabhupada seems a little impersonal and lacking.">>>>>>

Do you mean offering puja to Srila Prabhupada's murti is idol worship? When you say its impersonal and lacking, to me it sounds like you're declaring it to be idol worship. I am curious to know if it is just your opinion or there are other devotees as well in your temple who think the same way. What is your suggestion, it shouldn't be solely for Srila Prabhupada, are you trying to say that we need to have a live Guru in morning Guru Puja. Kindly elaborate.

Hari Bol.

Giri-nayaka das

yuga_avatar_das:
...,just look in the back to godhead for the present list of iskcon temples.

Yes, indeed, there is almost more temples listed in BTG, then there are copies of BTG printed. Quite interesting development.... So many temples, but nobody wants BTG. Something wrong with BTG? Or something wrong with all those wonderful temples? If today's ISKCON is really so great, then why is it so small?

Dear alchemical....what i miss which can't be replaced is that we used to personally worship the guru.By placing him on the vyasasana and washing his lotus feet.We would deal with all the visiting guru in a similar fashion ,which was ecstatic.I worshiped my siksa guru and diksa guru in this fashion and sadly it is sterile in comparison presently.We need a more mature atmosphere in ISKCON from the worshipers and the Godbrothers.Actually these small problems are due to lack of non-enviousness in my opinion.The new devotees especially need to see their senior devotees bowing down in real humility.Also the huge worldwide society of ISKCON was built infact after the personal disappearance of his divine grace AC BHAKTIVEDANTA srila Prabhupada SO HIS DISCIPLES HAVE ALSO LEFT A HUGE LEGACY.
We are infact part of a dynamic sampradaya.Which is due to their contributions also,such as gaura-govinda maharaja,maha-vishnu swami, tamala krishna goswami,hridayananda mahraja and prabhuvishnu swami to name a few.It began with the advent of his divine grace srila Prabhupada.....but is being carried on by his disciples and then their disciples.They also are leaving their personal gifts and legacy also.

I am sorry giri~nayaka das prabhu that our centre near you is so small,but the individual purity is extremely hard to find ,especially when it is also needs to be coupled with a non_envious spirit and compassionate nature.Ideally worship of guru,his godbrothers and even your equals and subordinates needs to be performed in a similar mood to which sri Krishna displays when instructing arjuna in bhagavata gita.Also the transcendental nature of this science is only available to those following in arjuna's same mood of service and sanctioned by anyone of the four vaishnava sampradaya's.Also this would also engender itself towards the topic of guru -puja worship which was commented on by previous devotees especially yuga avatar das.Since i am also of similar training and cultural context i appreciate his mood ....however we may disagree personally on other matters.The australianasian yatra has generally had similar moods of devotional service based on going out and just doing it.Talk is cheap,practical preaching and submission to your guru and authourities being paramount.Hence i would venture to comment that guru puja for srila Prabhupada only seems insufficient in my personal opinion ,considering that there is a completely new generation of guru's present today who have shouldered the brunt of the preaching workload.In many cases very successfully.

maah!

Sri Guru awards His service and realization to those who exclusively worship His external form as His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. The feeling that worship of Srila Prabhupada is impersonal will be dispelled by worshiping with more attention, tears and prayer. Conditioned souls acting as gurus should not be referred to as His Divine Grace, but all Vaisnava Acaryas in the past and future should be. Many souls deserve to be cheated and cheat others and that is their misfortune. Let us pray to Srila Prabhupada to guide us on the right path.

Srila Prabhupada ki jai!

Having just read your emotional yet sastricly inept statement concerning his divine grace AC bHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI srila Prabhupada,''maah '' one has little doubt we need more refinement of our sastric perceptions.Since he is not the sampradaya archarya,that role is exclusively srila Rupa goswami Prabhupada's....hopefully krishna will enable more perfect realisation.

maah!

Hare Krishna.

i wrote "Vaisnava Acaryas" of which Srila Prabhupada is formost, being the Yuga Dharma Acarya, for having fulfilled the prediction of Sriman Mahaprahu that My holy names would be spread to every town and village and Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura "A personality will soon come who will fulfill the desire of Mahaprabhu". To quote a great Vaisnava Acarya, Srila Narottam das Thakur, we sing every morning:

SRI GURU VANDANA
From "Prema-bhakti-candrika"

sri-guru-carana-padma, kevala-bhakati-sadma, bando mui savadhana mate jahara prasade bhai, e bhava toriya jai, krsna-prapti hoy jaha ha'te

The lotus feet of our spiritual master are the only way by which we can attain pure devotional service. I bow to his lotus feet with great awe and reverence. By his grace one can cross the ocean of material suffering and obtain the mercy of Krsna.

guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya, ar na koriho mane asa sri-guru-carane rati, ei se uttama-gati, je prasade pure sarva asa
My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth. Attachment to his lotus feet is the perfection that fulfills all desires.

cakhu-dan dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei, divya-jnan hrde prokasito prema-bhakti jaha hoite, avidya vinasa jate vede gay jahara carito
He opens my darkened eyes and fills my heart with transcendental knowledge. He is my Lord birth after birth. From him ecstatic prema emanates; by him ignorance is destroyed. The Vedic scriptures sing of his character.

sri-guru karuna-sindhu, adhama janara bandhu, lokanath lokera jivana ha ha prabhu koro doya, deho more pada-chaya, ebe jasa ghusuk tribhuvana
Our spiritual master is the ocean of mercy, the friend of the poor, and the lord and master of the devotees. O master! Be merciful unto me. Give me the shade of your lotus feet. Your fame is spread all over the three worlds, Srila Prabhupada, we take shelter at your lotus feet!".

"He is my Lord birth after birth." Since we worship Srila Prabhupada birth after birth, it's obvious that even devotees who have never seen Srila Prabhupada can derive ultimate benefit by worshiping Him here and now in this birth. Even those who took initiation from His Divine Grace but due to material involvement did not realize him at that time are worshiping him and gaining more realization even now. But those who do not worship him with an open heart, cannot know. Those who cannot know may claim that others also cannot know, but it is useless and definitely not shastric.

"The guru is the embodiment of the manifestation of the Divinity to the pure receptive spiritual essence of the disciple. Nityananda is the primary manifestive constituent of the Divinity. Nityananda alone possesses the distinctive function of the guru. In Nityananda the function is embodied. Nityananda is the servant-God. He serves Shri Gaurasundara by the distinctive method of reverential servitude. He is identical with Shri Balarama of krishna-lila. Shri Balarama is not the chum of Krishna, but His respected elder brother. It is an intimate relationship characterized by becoming reserved on one side, and of respectful deference on the other. Individual souls are under the direction of Nityananda. They receive their service of Shri Gaurasundara, i.e., of Krishna, at His hands. Nityananda is not a jiva. He is Divinity. He is the ultimate source of the jiva. The jiva is a potency of Nityananda. No jiva can be the medium of the service of the Absolute to another jiva. The Absolute alone may communicate His service to the separable constituents of Himself. This is the real nature of the function of the guru.” Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur

" No jiva can be the medium of the service of the Absolute to another jiva." So 99% of the so-called gurus cannot function as the medium to link our service with the Absolute. That is why Srila Prabhuada's worship is going on in ISKCON for the next 10,000 years and simple people realize the benefits.

scg-if u disagree, kindly use shastra in your rebuttle.

I am sorry prabhu,but the last i heard we are'' Rupanuga's'' ,part of the brahma madva gaudiya line .Yes devotees can receive siksa through the mercy of AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada,however the unique devotional dynamics are that we are not independent of the teachings of the six goswami's of vrindavana.The nectar of devotion which our ISKCON - founder acharya ,srila Prabhupada brought to the west is not his, rather he is merely couching and reinvigorating the same siddhanta's for the fallen soul of the kali yuga and especially for those in the western world.The same is for the other bhakti sastra's which sri chaitanya mahaprabhu empowered the six goswami's to write in pursuance of his desire and blessings.It is my humble opinion that these sentiments you harbour are merely founded in misguided emotion.However sri chaitanya mahaprabhu empowered the six goswami's and they were present to take initiation personally and serve in his presence.Following in the foot steps of rupa and sanatana goswami all vaisnava's have been blessed since.

chirpycynic

An organisation has to make its own rules.

But personally, i would like to address my guru as His Divine Grace. In fact, even that is not reflective of my guru's splendour.

For the guru has to be given as much respect as Krishna Himself in Human Form.

Perhaps we can settle for guruji (when addressing the guru publicly) and thinking of Him as HDG (when thinking of him privately).

Honorifics don't matter though; it is the attachment to him and his teachings that do.

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