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Philosophy: Our relationship with devotees is a reflection of our relationship with Krishna?

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthordeena
    • CommentTimeJun 1st 2009 edited
     
    I heard it in a Sunday Feast class but I'm not really sure of the logic behind it. Any comments?
    • CommentAuthorKyros
    • CommentTimeJun 1st 2009
     
    Just imagine seeing all devotees in the mood of a conjugal lover...

    No, I don't think it works.
    • CommentAuthordeena
    • CommentTimeJun 1st 2009
     
    Kyros:Just imagine seeing all devotees in the mood of a conjugal lover...
    The idea was more like, 'If I don't get on well with devotees, that means I don't get on well with Krishna.' It just struck me as a statement that is not really verifyable, perhaps not philosophically justifiable, and perhaps just wrong. I'd be interested to hear any comments/evidence to the contrary.
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      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2009
     
    One possible meaning: If one can't get along with devotees what about in the spiritual world full of devotees?
    Purvapaksa: In the sp. world there are only pure devotees with one goal - serving the Lord - while here devotees may have also other goals (misra bhakti).
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      CommentAuthormishra
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2009 edited
     
    that argument is just a corporate phallacy:
    The preacher is extending "devotees" to all devotees at all times. That means, at your practical end, if you do not agree with us / me at this temple you have no possibility to reach the spiritual world, which is salvationist argument anyway.

    To step in your relationship with Krishna like this is clearly not in the line of our acaryas, much less Srila Prabhupada´s style.

    Srila Prabhupada was always positively preaching, like "We all love Krishna" and can attain Him via bonafide devotees.

    Which is turned around into.... We all hate Krishna and you can only attain him through me/us/this temple no matter what.
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      CommentAuthorPandu das
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2009 edited
     
    Sounds like a threat to ensure loyalty.

    Srila Prabhupada got very little cooperation from his godbrothers, but Krishna obviously cooperated with him.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2009
     
    There is no way to equate godbrothers and devotees... obviously there is a competition to please the spiritual master among the godbrothers.

    BTW Prabhupada had a huge success in support from others and if you compare to other groups -- you will see that ISKCON much less implicated in politics then minor maths among each other or against the Caitanya Math (and even less then within Caitanya Math itself, where gurus/followers of gurus often resorted to open combat for leadership, up to very recent times). Prabhupada enjoyed great relationships if you compare him to any of his other godbrothers. Exact reason for him to not be too close to his godbrothers.

    However one should be at odds with devotees who are philosophically devious or who are specifically affected by desire to control others.

    The last thing is to use Prabhupada as an example to not cooperate. He clearly wanted it and trained his disciples to cooperate, for years, while he was still with us. He wanted it -- but he was not an idealist and knew well that difference in opinion will always be there.
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      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2009
     
    SPL 1972 to Krsnadasa:

    "Regarding your questions you say that amongst the elder disciples there are still symptoms of greed, anger, strife, bickering, etc., but you are one of them. You are one of the old students, so you fall in that group. So the fighting is among that group, but not amongst the real workers. There was fighting amongst the gopis also, so we cannot expect there will be some utopia without fighting, there is even in the spiritual sky transcendental greed, lust, envy, like that. But that is transcendental. Hamsaduta is maintaining his position of service, so why, even if a little fighting, you should go away? We should never give up our duty. My godbrothers always discouraged me but I did not give up, I am doing my duty and always keeping my spiritual master in front. Even there is some difficulty or hardship, or even my godbrothers may not cooperate or there may be fighting, still, I must perform my duty to my spiritual master and not become discouraged and go away, that is my weakness."
  9.  
    I would take this to mean that we must have good relationships with devotees to have a good relationship with Krishna. Srila Prabhupada has quoted the English maxim , "if you love me, love my dog" in relationship to Guru, the devotees and Krishna. Meaning that Guru/ Vaishnavas are Krishna's dogs. So to get in good with the Master (Krishna) you must be on good terms with His dogs (the devotees).

    Similarly in sastra it states that , "One who claims he is My devotee, is not My devotee, but one who is a devotee of My devotee is in actuality My devotee."

    The point is we can't gate crash our way into Goloka, we must have the help of the bona fide spiritual master and the devotees in order to make it back to Godhead. Krishna doesn't accept upstarts who think they can make it back to Godhead simply by chanting x amount of rounds per day and following all these regulative principles, we require the mercy of the devotees to go back to Godhead.
    •  
      CommentAuthorPandu das
    • CommentTimeJun 5th 2009
     
    ccd,
    I get the feeling that you're attempting to counter what I wrote, but I don't see where we disagree in principle. Yet I'm not sure what you mean by not equating godbrothers with devotees. Do you mean to say that your spiritual master's godbrothers are not devotees? I don't get it.

    I was saying that although he was carrying out his spiritual master's order, they were not cooperating with him, and you kindly provided a quote saying exactly that. If they were understanding and carefully following their guru's order, I presume Bhaktivedanta Srila Prabhupada would have given his support, but since he was the one doing it, it was up to them to cooperate with him. It did not sound to me like he had a very good relationship with many of his godbrothers, but we know that Krishna accepted him none the less. Still I would say they were also devotees.

    Personally I find myself philosophically at odds with some devotees at times, but I still cooperate, even to the point where my community does not know when we disagree. (In fact I know of some gurus who would consider me an enemy if they knew how I saw some things, but still I'm happy to serve not only them but their disciples and their disciples' children, based on accepting them as devotees despite any disagreements.) Actually I think what that says is that certain topics of discussion are not permitted, which I don't think is healthy; but for the sake of peace I try to avoid these subjects if possible so our shared mission does not suffer unnecessary disturbance. I'm trying to get along with all the devotees, though sometimes it seems most difficult. One example, you and I are often in disagreement about various topics related to Krishna consciousness, but still I consider it very much beneficial for me to offer you my respectful obeisances and beg your blessings for my spiritual advancement.

    Hare Krishna.
    Thankful People: ccd
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2009 edited
     
    Being at odds with godbrothers is not the same thing as being at odds or have no support from devotees. Loving relationships with devotees is an essential component of bhakti. (minority of godbrothers that Prabhupada was at odds with can be discounted as an allowance for competion). ysccd
    • CommentAuthordeena
    • CommentTimeJun 9th 2009
     
    Thinking over Prabhupada's letter posted by ccd, it seems that the primary consideration is not our relationship with devotees but, as Prabhupada writes, "keeping my spiritual master in front, " and "maintaining a position of service."

    So the statement "Our relationship with devotees is a reflection of our relationship with Krishna" is not necessarily true. In light of Prabhupada's letter. our relationship with Krishna is reflected primarily by maintaining a position of service even if "my godbrothers may not cooperate or there may be fighting."
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      CommentAuthormaah!
    • CommentTimeJul 27th 2009
     
    Jaya Srila Prabhupada!

    "Our relationship with devotees is a reflection of our relationship with Krishna."

    "Just imagine seeing all devotees in the mood of a conjugal lover..."
    Bad joke or vulgar, cheap talk, no realization.

    Our relationship with Everyone is a reflection of our relationship with Sri Krishna. "One who loves Krishna loves one and all." Those who do not love Sri Krishna cannot love one and all.

    "For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, i am never lost nor is he ever lost to Me" Bhagavd Gita As It Is.

    SB 9.9.44 P The Dynasty of Amsuman
    “The maha-bhagavata, the advanced devotee, certainly sees everything mobile and immobile, but he does not exactly see their forms. RATHER, EVERYWHERE HE IMMEDIATELY SEES MANIFEST THE FORM OF THE SUPREME LORD.

    Love for Lord Krishna is the goal, not love for the devotees--unless it is Srila Prabhupada, Sri Guru. The spiritual master (the best devotee) is the external manifestation of Lord Krishna's kripa or mercy..

    yasya deve para bhaktir, yatha-deve tatha gurau
    tasyaite kathita hy arthah, prakasante mahatmanah

    "Only unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master are all the imports of Vedic knowledge automatically revealed." (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.38)
  14.  
    No. Our relationship with Krishna is eternal; whereas worldly relationships (with devotees or others) is temporary.

    If you have found the right guru, then you will automatically feel unalloyed love for Him or Her.

    You can't like all devotees; and you can't dislike all either.

    Follow your heart.
    • CommentAuthorBaker
    • CommentTimeOct 3rd 2009 edited
     
    From what I have understood so far, "our relationship with devotees is a reflection of our relationship with Krishna" refers to the following:


    Having a good relationship with Krishna will result in having good relationships with His devotees (or people in general) - "good" in the sense that those relationships will not be detrimental to our spiritual pursuits, but be beneficial for them.

    Not having good relationships with His devotees (or people in general) means that our relationship with Krishna is not good - "not good" in the sense that we are not investing in it sufficiently.

    This is because of all the relationships we have, the one we have with Krishna is fundamental for us, and all other relationships depend on it. So if we don't attend to our relationship with Krishna properly, all other relationships will suffer.

    Because Krishna is the maintainer of all living beings (BG 13.15), and living beings are rewarded accordingly to how much they surrender unto Him (BG 4.11), whereby devotional service to Krishna is the highest religious principle (SB 6.3.22).

    Or to give the analogy of watering a tree: "As by watering the root of a tree one automatically distributes water to the leaves and branches, so by acting in Kṛṣṇa consciousness one can render the highest service to everyone — namely self, family, society, country, humanity, etc. If Kṛṣṇa is satisfied by one's actions, then everyone will be satisfied." (BG 2.41, pp)



    As for devotees or people in general being displeased with us and this being considered to mean that Krishna is displeased with us: It takes some remarkable vanity to assume innocence or perfection in one's devotional service. One can never sit back and think "I have done everything, my devotional service is perfect, therefore everyone should be satisfied with me and praise me."
    Certainly some people will be displeased with us, no matter what we do. But we should discriminate intelligently whose criticism we should heed (NoI 5).




    I hope this helps.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeOct 3rd 2009
     
    It is perfectly fine to be disgusted with all or most devotees or disciples.

    In one letter Prabhupäda made a statement that will otherwise be perplexing to you n many ways. He expressed that when his own spiritual master saw that he was only making neophyte disciples he became disgusted and decided to leave this world untimely.

    In late January of 1996, Gour Govinda Swami mentioned privately, “Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta said that this material world is not a fit place for any gentleman. Therefore, because he was disgusted, he left this world prematurely. I may also. I don’t know. I simply depend on Gopäl. I will do whatever He wants.”

    However Prabhupada was very much not disgusted. Prabhupada said that although his Guru Maharaja had become disgusted at the end of his life due to the misbehavior of his leading disciples, he did not feel that; rather, he liked the company of his disciples and felt they were doing their best in carrying out his order. But he also warned them not to spoil ISKCON and become another Gaudiya Math by splitting up.

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