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Philosophy: Use of substance obtained by violence in deity worship

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    Recently, I was reading about use of Kasturi (substance obtained from naval of musk deer) in Jagannath Puri temple. This practice of using Kasturi in deity worship is ancient. In Sri Krishna Karnamrita 2.108 by Sri Bilvamangala Thakur refers to Lord Mukunda's use of kasturi tilaka:

    kasturi tilakam lalata phalake
    vakshasthale kausthubham naasaagre navamouktikam,
    karatale venum kare kankanam
    sarvaange harichandanancha kalayam
    kanthecha mukthavali
    gopastree pariveshthito
    vijayate gopala chudaamani
    vijayate gopala chudaamani

    But to obtain Kasturi, the musk deer has to be killed. It seems to be wrong to me ethically. Can someone kindly provide some insight, how do we understand this practice of using Kasturi(musk) in deity worship.
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      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2009 edited
     
    Lots of things used in yajnas and deity worship is obtained via voilence or related to it. We are note jainas, and we use what krsna likes. Read Bhagavad Gita, at least couple of chapters.
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      CommentAuthorSaryu
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2009
     
    ccd: We are note jainas, and we use what krsna likes. Read Bhagavad Gita, at least couple of chapters.
    Nice preaching, Prabhu. "Read Bahagavad-gita, at least couple of chapters..." Insinuating, the person asking is totally ignorant and an unqualified devotee... Way to go, such an enlightening inspirational answer to someone who inquired humbly. And, oh so friendly. I wonder how much courage will it take for this person ( or anyone reading this, who is not a regular on this site and may lack social confidence) to ask their next question, if they will at all...
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      CommentAuthorSaryu
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2009
     
    Just thinking more about it, we live in a society, obsessed with protection of animals and preventing animal cruelty, as well as endangered species. It is very possible to come across such question in our daily preaching. I personally preach a fair bit to people I meet online, and I would love to churn this topic and come up with a more satisfactory answer than CCD prabhu gave, something that will not sound so dismissive, if not defensive, and will provide people with a proper understanding of our position on this issue.
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      CommentAuthorccd
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2009 edited
     
    Our position is that we follow Vedas and vedic tradition. And even if in principle we accept upanishads 'mahimsah sarva bhutanam' we do not see it as a necessary practical principle that allows us to defy desires of how Bhagavan wants to be worshiped or treated. But by all means come back with a better preaching... (sorry for coming across sarcastic, but obviously person who quotes Krsna Karnamrita is not an "unqualified devotee", but at the same time first few chapters of the Gita WILL clear the doubts, I am not kiddin' here, it is amazing!!!)
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      CommentAuthorPandu das
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2009
     
    One way the question could be rephrased would be to ask why Krishna would want to be worshiped using this substance.
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      CommentAuthorSaryu
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2009
     
    ccd: But by all means come back with a better preaching...
    Prabhu, if I had an opinion on that and could quote scriptures to support that opinion, I would have done that. This topic confuses me as well, and this is exactly the reason I am watching this thread, hoping that devotees will share their understanding of the issue.
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      CommentAuthorsitapati
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2009
     
    Vedic culture actually has a lot of animal killing and meat eating in it. If you read Charaka Samhita, the source text for Ayurveda, very early on you start get recommendations to eat fox soup and other animal product foods.

    The thing is that cow killing is not recommended or permitted (except for gavalambha - see SB.4.13.25), and neither are industrialized slaughter houses kept as they are today.

    The Bhagavatam tells us: jivo jivasya jivanam. One living entity is food for another. Hunting is commonplace in Vedic civilization and the Bhagavatam is full of tales where a hunting expedition forms the backdrop for the main story.

    So our ideas of "absolutely no animal killing" are informed by Buddhist and Jainist traditions, which were reactions to excessive animal-killing, and are also a reaction to today's excessive animal killing.

    Otherwise animal killing is actually a natural part of life. There are many products that are used in Vedic civilization that come from animals, and the deer musk is one of them.

    The idea of sacrifice is that the performer of sacrifice, the recipients of the remnants fo sacrifice, and the sacrificial ingredients themselves are benefited by the process of sacrifice.

    So today not many animal products that involve killing animals are used (what about the yak tail whisk?). The deer musk is one of them.
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      CommentAuthorphani
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2009
     
    my understanding is that the animal sacrifices sanctioned in veda all require a _qualified brahmana_ to conduct them--otherwise it's just slaughter. i don't know who claims to be a qualified brahmana / vaisnava today, but i would certainly not go ahead and kill a musk dear in order to offer it's musk to krsna.

    far as i know it doesn't say anywhere that musk _has_ to be offered to satisfy the lord. other ingredients and paraphernalia that don't require violence should do nicely.
    Thankful People: Pandu das
    • CommentAuthorKyros
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2009
     
    sitapati: If you read Charaka Samhita, the source text for Ayurveda, very early on you start get recommendations to eat fox soup and other animal product foods.

    True, but Ayurveda also warns of karma when eating animal products. It's a double edge sword.
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    Stiapati:"So our ideas of "absolutely no animal killing" are informed by Buddhist and Jainist traditions, which were reactions to excessive animal-killing, and are also a reaction to today's excessive animal killing."

    CCD: "We are note jainas"

    "With great alacrity the hunter began to run toward his spiritual master, but he could not fall down and offer obeisances because ants were running hither and thither around his feet. (CC madhya 24.270)

    Seeing the ants, the hunter whisked them away with a piece of cloth. After thus clearing the ants from the ground, he fell down flat to offer his obeisances. (CC Madhya 24.271)

    "Nārada Muni said, 'My dear hunter, such behavior is not at all astonishing. A man in devotional service is automatically nonviolent. He is the best of gentlemen. (CC Madhya 24.272)

    "'O hunter, good qualities like nonviolence, which you have developed, are not very astonishing, for those engaged in the Lord's devotional service are never inclined to give pain to others because of envy.' (CC Madhya 24.273)

    Further in the purport of verse 24.272 from Madhya Lila Srila Prabhupada writes:

    "According to Nārada Muni and Vedic culture, animal-killers are not even gentlemen, to say nothing of being religious men. A religious person, a devotee of the Lord, must be nonviolent. Such is the nature of a religious person. It is contradictory to be violent and at the same time call oneself a religious person. Such hypocrisy is not approved by Nārada Muni and the disciplic succession."

    Here we can see that Srila Prabhupada calls violence and religion to be contradictory and he does not finish by calling it contradiction, he even calls it hypocrisy.

    I understand the principle that Lord Krsna's senses need to be satisfied and we need to offer him what he likes. But I could not find any quotes or refrences about musk being an integral part of deity worship or any refrences where it is said that Krsna likes to use musk.

    About use of musk in ISKCON, I know only one incident. One Maharaja wrote an article in which he mentioned that he received a donation of natural musk from an indian businessman and he was using it for his deities. Apart from that I do not know if musk is used in ISKCON temples or not but it is offered to deities in traditional indian temples like Jagannatha Puri.

    I am not trying to judge anyone neither my intention is to contradict anything, my purpose behind starting this thread is only to develop a deeper understanding of principles of devotional service and I am grateful to everyone for their contribution on this topic.
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      CommentAuthorsitapati
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2009
     
    Dweller-in-peace, yes this is *one* story from the Vedic tradition, with one purport by one acarya from one lineage.

    Vedic civilisation is much broader and diverse than just that, and there is a lot of use of animal products.

    For renunciants "extreme" forms of non-violence are practiced, but Srila Prabhupada explained that Bhimasena ate meat. Is he to be considered a hypocrite?

    The original question is about the use of Kasturi in temple worship. In the wider context of the Vedic civilisation it is not such an anomaly. In the face of the increased focus on non-violence and vegetarianism that has characterised the Vedic tradition since the influence of Buddhism and Jainism it does look odd.

    Try reading the Krishna Yajur Veda description of the Asvamedha yajna to get an idea of how much animal killing actually went on in Vedic civilisation...
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      CommentAuthormpcd
    • CommentTimeAug 30th 2009
     
    Hare Krishna
    PAMHO

    One can also note the quantum of killing of animals and men that went on during the great war called Mahabharata.
    The chief consideration for what defines correct or incorrect action is - which action will please Krishna.
    Sanatana Goswami fed his Deity with saltless chapatis.
    Grand worship does not always mean more love - but can lead one closer to love.

    Obtaining musk may even be overendeavor. Its expensive.

    In a rare case like Deity Installation, I have heard it is sometimes used.

    There is violence in all our actions. Breathing, walking, moving in a car etc. Even in cooking we kill insects with the fire.

    To not sin is impossible.

    However, we can purify all actions by offering it to Krishna.

    This is why He says - sarva dharman parityajya......aham tvam sarva papebhyo......ma sucah.

    ys
    mpcd
    • CommentAuthorHaridas
    • CommentTimeDec 1st 2009
     
    suparna:Sitapati:For renunciants "extreme" forms of non-violence are practiced, but Srila Prabhupada explained that Bhimasena ate meat. Can anyone please provide references where did Srila Prabhupada mentioned that Bhimasena ate meat? Thanks.
    That's Ksatriya Dharma. There's probably a reference in the Mahabharat.
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      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2009
     
    Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kshatriyas, they can, they're allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the kshatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas.
    (mw, 'Varnasrama college', March 14, 1974, Vrndavana)

    This is the only ref I found. I don't have time to search thru Mbh.

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