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Should there be set minimum requirements for all temples based on Srila Prabhupada's instructions?
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It seems there are many different standards in our temples and farms (i.e., regular harinam & book distribution, practising self-sufficiency, free prasadam at Sunday feast etc.)....should there be standard requirements in all temples? (maybe monitored by GBC representatives).
Recently a main temple in Brazil closed...there was no or little book distribution or harinama and the temple was practically supported by asking donations from guests and selling prasadam at very high prices. -
I think you have to take into account that all temples are in different situations. For example in Malaysia, the people around the temple cannot afford books, so there is no book distribution outside the temple, just harinam. In Zurich I was told they are not allowed to do harinam outside of festivals, they just do bhajans in the park.
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Yes agreed Haridas, these exceptional situations have to be taken into consideration and concessions made...I am talking of temples & centres that are able to perform these activities but are not currently obliged to do so. Most temples are able to perform Harinama and book distribution.
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There are some minimum standard instructions in existence.
http://www.gosai.com/krishna-talk/graphics/society/prabhupada-instrs-9.jpg
These were written by Srila Prabhupada in 1966 and I think are quite liberal in order to accommodate the level of his flock at the time (e.g. no mention of 16 rounds). Even though these standards are on the liberal side, initiated devotees still have to attend class twice a day.
1] All initiated devotees must attend morning and evening classes.
2] Must not be addicted to any kind of intoxicants including coffee, tea and cigarettes.
3] They are forbidden to have illicit sex connections.
4] Must be strictly vegetarian.
5] Should not extensively mix with non-devotees.
6] Should not eat foodstuff cooked by non-devotees.
7] Should not waste time in idle talks nor engage himself in frivolous sports.
8] Should always chant and sing the Lord's holy names: Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
Srila Prabhupada deputed the GBC to monitor standards across the organisation. I am sure with a little research into GBC laws/resolutions etc, you can find a 'minimum standards' type statement or guideline. -
ISKCON Management Guideline 203.
203: The temple president and GBC Zonal Secretary shall see that ISKCON temples maintain a strict regulated sadhana for the devotees to follow. Temple leaders shall be exemplary in personally maintaining devotional practices. The general requirements for resident devotees shall include:
3.1 Sixteen rounds of Hare Krishna Mantra on japa beads
3.2 Four regulative principles (no eating meat, fish or eggs; no gambling; no intoxication; no illicit sex).
3.3 A diet consisting exclusively of Krishna prasadam.
3.4 The following morning program:
1. Cleansing oneself upon arising.
2. Mangal artika, normally at 4:15 or 4:30am, sung to the 'morning melody'.
3. Tulasi puja
4. A two hour japa period (normally after Tulasi puja).
5. Deity greeting (normally at 7 or 7:15 am.)
6. Srila Prabhupada's guru puja.
7. Srimad Bhagavatam class, begun by singing Jaya Radha Madhava, followed by a question
and answer period.
8. Morning prasadam after class.
3.5 Evening program (as often as possible)
1. Cleansing oneself before entering the temple.
2. Tulasi puja at a standard time, for example 6:45 PM.
3. Full artika and kirtan for the Deities at 7:00 PM.
4. Bhagavad-gita class after kirtan.
5. Hot milk and light prasadam before retiring.
204. The temple leaders shall engage resident devotees in regulated devotional service.
205. All ISKCON devotees shall regularly study Srila Prabhupada's books and preach their realizations based upon Srila Prabhupada's teachings. -
On Book distribution:
ISKCON Managemetn Guidelines:
521. Recognizing that Krishna will reciprocate by sending help, ISKCON leaders shall always cultivate and share the desire to distribute Srila Prabhupada's books, and facilitate their distribution as much as possible.
522. All resident members shall actively participate in distributing books or directly supporting book distribution as a part of their assigned service.
523. As far as possible, book distributors shall strive to collect double the cost of each book. The temple president shall see that 50% of income from book distribution goes to the BBT and the other 50% for temple maintenance.
524. The temple president and book distribution department head shall see that book distributors have:
- proper vehicles that are relatively new, comfortable, and safe to drive
- good quality, presentable shoes and clothing appropriate for the weather conditions
- quality prasadam served warm and in a timely manner
525. ISKCON book distribution department heads shall:
- make sure vehicles are serviced properly
- assign designated areas for distribution to the devotees, avoiding confusing assignments and excessive distribution in the same area.
- maintain good communications with traveling parties
- obtain permission from appropriate ISKCON leaders where traveling parties are distributing
- report temple book distribution scores to the national and/or international SKP newsletters.
526. ISKCON temple presidents and book distribution leaders shall encourage distributors to:
- do their best and depend on the mercy of the Lord.
- carefully maintain their devotional practices, physical health, and emotional well being
- use only sales techniques that leave a favorable impression of Krishna consciousness -
related: http://jaganat.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/how-to-open-and-maintain-a-temple/
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On Book distribution:deena:
ISKCON Managemetn Guidelines:
521. Recognizing that Krishna will reciprocate by sending help, ISKCON leaders shall always cultivate and share the desire to distribute Srila Prabhupada's books, and facilitate their distribution as much as possible.
522. All resident members shall actively participate in distributing books or directly supporting book distribution as a part of their assigned service.
523. As far as possible, book distributors shall strive to collect double the cost of each book. The temple president shall see that 50% of income from book distribution goes to the BBT and the other 50% for temple maintenance.
524. The temple president and book distribution department head shall see that book distributors have:
- proper vehicles that are relatively new, comfortable, and safe to drive
- good quality, presentable shoes and clothing appropriate for the weather conditions
- quality prasadam served warm and in a timely manner
525. ISKCON book distribution department heads shall:
- make sure vehicles are serviced properly
- assign designated areas for distribution to the devotees, avoiding confusing assignments and excessive distribution in the same area.
- maintain good communications with traveling parties
- obtain permission from appropriate ISKCON leaders where traveling parties are distributing
- report temple book distribution scores to the national and/or international SKP newsletters.
526. ISKCON temple presidents and book distribution leaders shall encourage distributors to:
- do their best and depend on the mercy of the Lord.
- carefully maintain their devotional practices, physical health, and emotional well being
- use only sales techniques that leave a favorable impression of Krishna consciousness
Would be good to see these guidelines enforcible....made into law? -
You mention the main temple in Brazil just closed. What happened? According to the following article of December 2008, "...current GBCs and other sannyasis...have spent the last several years working to revive and empower Brazil’s own leaders..."
http://news.iskcon.com/node/1544/2008-12-13/new_generation_take_over_gbc_brazil -
You mention the main temple in Brazil just closed. What happened? According to the following article of December 2008, "...current GBCs and other sannyasis...have spent the last several years working to revive and empower Brazil’s own leaders..."deena:
Not Rio....Sao Paulo temple had to close due to lack of funds (none or very little book dist. etc. relying on donations from devotees and guests)...they now have another temple which is fortunate but I am sure the closure could have been avoided if these basic temple guidelines were followed -
Hey Rasa, just sign up for THIS chat site...so many.
Sounds like New Raman Reti here. Did somebody come up with a plan like this for all ISKCON farms, retire them?
Easier to run them like Show? with skeleton staff, attached buffet (restaurant would employ devotees and we don't want to help facilitate maintenance needs of aspiring Vaishnavas now, would we? wink-wink ; -) like all over India....as Srila Prabhupada use to tell us in classes....to the point the pujari was using the Srila for his personal nut cracker.
Temples closing because the mood is "that was then and it won't work now" mentality. Managers grew up and want western lifestyle, not being trained as brahmacari when small. But I tell you, there will always be the age and stage of people who want ot join an ashram for awhile, want to work on a farm for a while, all it takes is organized management and NO AGENDA on our part? (which shouldn't be too hard if you keep your eye on the prize, let's face it man.....WHO has a prize greater than what Srila Prabhupada delivered???? Now there's a debate can go on for years....Eye on the Prize guys, who would take up a fancy home and a bank account as your goals ??? What fool???? -
Rasa108, you wrote:
Would be good to see these guidelines enforcible....made into law?
Rasa, you're so funny (young and hopeful and so not experienced in the world....or am I older and really becoming that cynical about people NOT changing their stripes? ; - )
I remember pretending to be a karmi on book distribution (back in the day, heehee) because two of us were collecting in another zone for New Vrindavan. (We were lonely for association and prasadam and it was Sunday and the Sunday feast was going on in Miami. ; - )
GUESS who wrote up the GBC Resolution that all ISKCON temple presidents will give a courtesy call
(or whatever- I really don't know how it is worded, I am just being nice here ; - )
if they have bhaktas/bhaktins collecting in their zone? Uh-huh.....Kirtananda Swami.
GUESS who was the WORST violator.....uh-huh...Kirtananda Swami.
So it is, after all, the material world, so nothing will be at it should. It's Kali Yuga with Holy Name allowed to be present on Sri Bhumi Devi but not necessarily looking all heavenly planets with friends being gentlemen around here. Otherwise, we would have had those nice small village communities we all envisioned in the late 70's, when ISKCON was buying up farmland. The land certainly wasn't to just look at. And everybody would be taking the footpaths to the temple for evening Arotika and bhajans, instead of hooking up the electronic entertainment choice in their grhasta caves miles and miles from the temple.
Prabhupada wants working farms and small communities based on religious practices. Here in Alachua, Florida....the Deities still get offered fish oil.....33 years and the Deities get fish oil. Nobody knows the Hare Krishna's are involved in farming AND cow protection? Who is running that farm, anyway? Somebody please tell me, exactly who runs Alachua farm? It is NOT Mukhya, wasn't Caturatma, and wasn't even Ram Vigraha. A president rounds up his team and makes development plans, these guys are just one of the team members running the daily concerns....so who is in charge of ALachua, and where are the plans??? Failing to plan, means planning to fail.
We definitely are one group of people should have the mode of passion and goodness down as a Science, and be doing it. Otherwise, the mode of ignorance is there to catch the slackers. -
Are we talking about standard that established Prabhupada? It is very very high! You all must admit it is very high standard, hardly an easy thing to achieve with low manpower (we have these days).
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to my understanding we are in the catch 22: no manpower because no implementation or no implementation because of lack of manpower? What is first? Egg or chicken?
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Actually first comes enthusiasm, then mercy, then manpower and then good management. We are only concerned with management and doing a lot of 'training' , but what Prabhupada wanted is to 'enthuse them more and more'.
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Good management is very enthusing.
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>Good management is very enthusing.
You mean leadership? Oh yeah the management too... -
Maybe we should pray for an incarnation of enthusiasm!
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yes, everything BUT being enthusiastic. Praying is a good distraction and you pass as advanced. :)
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....or am I older and really becoming that cynical about people NOT changing their stripes?mallikadasi:
This part is correct :-) -
Hey it could be worse ,we could be forced to become vegans,have to take the chosen guru or get banned.The mandatory temple president has to be a women ....and go to iskcon to take prasadam because your yoga centres are too small time....while saying that krishna was wrong about being a butter theif,and Prabhupada really didn't like ghee.Like in wellington ,New Zealand.
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Vegans are cool. Are you a woman hater and ghee lover or is it about your new GBC man?
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>The mandatory temple president has to be a women
It may be a good idea. -
I am sorry borokrishna das,my vegan jokes wear thin but why do American devotees always attempt to change,or even attempt to improve on what srila Prabhupada has established as the standards of mood, behaviour and in this case our diets? Personally it reminds me of the sad behaviour of the followers of kirtananda swami.Whom i have alot of sympathy for ''being the black sheeps of iskcon.''Some might say our first sahaja's who improved ...to their eventual destruction''.
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....but why do American devotees always attempt to change,or even attempt to improve on what srila Prabhupada has established as the standards of mood, behaviour and in this case our diets?sri_govinda_das:
I have to agree with this one....why all this veganism!! - obviously we are not organised enough at the moment to provide fresh milk and ghee etc. from our farms to the temples in the cities (well not in Australia), but that should not be a license to push the vegan agenda. Krsna likes ghee and butter and this is what we should offer Him. -
>I have to agree with this one....why all this veganism!! - obviously we are not organised enough at the moment to provide fresh milk and ghee etc. from our farms to the >temples in the cities (well not in Australia), but that should not be a license to push the vegan agenda.
Unprotected cows are the ones who are removed from their calf and will be slaughtered once they stop producing milk. If some devotees have refused to drink the milk from unprotected cows, so that not to participate in this slaughter business what's wrong with that. Not everyone can do this only men of courage and guts can do that, and these devotees need to be respected.No one is forcing anyone to be Vegan. It is individual choice.
>Krsna likes ghee and butter and this is what we should offer Him.
No one is objecting this and after offering that you can have as much Mahaprasadam. But please don't make it a yardstick to measure each and every other devotee. -
dweller-in-peace: "Not everyone can do this only men of courage and guts can do that, and these devotees need to be respected.No one is forcing anyone to be Vegan. It is individual choice."
I do not disrespect anyone who chooses not to offer Krsna milk products from these cows nor did I say anyone is forced (although if there is nothing else available on the menu then there is no alternative but to eat the vegan prasadam). My point was in relation to changing the philosophy to suit this particular agenda i.e., Krsna doesn't accept milk products from unprotected cows....I've heard this first-hand and it's nonsense.
There are quotes where Srila Prabhupada says we should use our own milk and produce from our farms and minimise our purchasing off the shelf produce and we should be aiming for this standard. I would be interested to see a quote from Srila Prabhupada where he instructed his disciples not to use such milk under any circumstances.
Anyone has such a quote? -
Interesting article by Danavir Goswami http://www.dandavats.com/?p=4745
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dweller-in-peace: "Not everyone can do this only men of courage and guts can do that, and these devotees need to be respected.No one is forcing anyone to be Vegan. It is individual choice."rasa108:
Anyone has such a quote?
The famous vegan sloka comes to mind...[br][br]
vaco vegam manasah krodha-vegam [br]
jihva-vegam udaropastha-vegam [br]
etan vegan yo visaheta dhirah [br]
sarvam apimam prthivim sa sisyat [br]
(Upadesamrta 1) -
[quote]ccd:
dweller-in-peace: "Not everyone can do this only men of courage and guts can do that, and these devotees need to be respected.No one is forcing anyone to be Vegan. It is individual choice."rasa108:
Anyone has such a quote?
The famous vegan sloka comes to mind...[br][br]
vaco vegam manasah krodha-vegam [br]
jihva-vegam udaropastha-vegam [br]
etan vegan yo visaheta dhirah [br]
sarvam apimam prthivim sa sisyat [br]
(Upadesamrta 1)[/quote]
Jokes aside, actually you can not join a few NZ iskcon preaching centres/temples if one is not vegan... Vegan is a part of preaching there... they have some 17 people who joined like that, and they all have the same uniforms and same philosophy. -
>Jokes aside, actually you can not join a few NZ iskcon preaching centres/temples if one is not vegan... Vegan is a part of preaching there... they have some 17 people >who joined like that, and they all have the same uniforms and same philosophy.
I see each year in ISKCON, on the day of Govardhan Puja, they will hire a young cow, hundreds of indians will come to watch, a temple devotee will offer the Arotik to the cow, then indians will donate money in the name of cow for cow protection. Money will be collected and there will be a feast. After feast indians will go home, donations collected in the name of cow will be safely put aside for whatever purposes, cow will be returned to its owner and a few days later that cow will be slaughtered. And the same thing will be repeated next year and then year after year.
You might call it worship of cow by saints, others may feel it is hypocrisy. If this type of cow worship disturbs the mind of few devotees and they have refused to be part of such cow worship and decided not to use milk till the time they will have their own cows which are protected, I see nothing wrong in it.
>>My point was in relation to changing the philosophy to suit this particular agenda i.e., Krsna doesn't accept milk products from unprotected cows....I've heard this first-hand and it's nonsense.
Never heard such thing before. But how will you know if Krsna accepts the milk from unprotected cows and not from protected cows? More possibility is that he might accept the milk of protected cows. My guess is that Krsna accepts what is offered to him with love and devotion, that's the main ingredient which he seeks for rather than milk. -
Whatever it is at Govardhana Puja fest (why would you rent a cow but even you did) -- the standards are different. It is more then likely they will become more and more different as we go along.
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dweller-in-peace:
Never heard such thing before. But how will you know if Krsna accepts the milk from unprotected cows and not from protected cows? More possibility is that he might accept the milk of protected cows. My guess is that Krsna accepts what is offered to him with love and devotion, that's the main ingredient which he seeks for rather than milk.
Krishna is famous as the protector of cows, so if a cow is engaged in his service by supplying Him milk, how can that cow be unprotected even if the body of the cow gets sent to slaughter? Naturally devotees want to protect the cow's body and soul, but ultimately none of us can prevent the material body's destruction. The important thing is to engage every living entity in Krishna's service, which can at least prevent another birth. That is real protection. -
Yes,Pandu's last point nails it,imho. The rest is sentimental!
Ysvt. -
yes, everything BUT being enthusiastic. Praying is a good distraction and you pass as advanced. :)mishra:
what u mean by this mishra? -
>>Krishna is famous as the protector of cows, so if a cow is engaged in his service by supplying Him milk, how can that cow be unprotected even if the body of the cow >>gets sent to slaughter? Naturally devotees want to protect the cow's body and soul, but ultimately none of us can prevent the material body's destruction.
It is possible to console the mind and overcome the guilt which comes from buying milk from super market by this thinking. But it is a cheap solution and the cheap solutions will never let the real solution come forward which is to have our own protected cows. It is very very hard to follow a rule such as drinking milk only from protected cows. It is a big problem because it is very hard to find milk of protected cows when you live away from ISKCON farm. I admire these devotees who have decided to stick to the problem rather than opting for cheap solutions.Because they are so determined they will have Krsna's mercy and their own protected cows and milk to drink. -
>The rest is sentimental!
>Devotees need to be little more democratic, less dictatorail and try to understand the feelings of other fellow devotees who might appear to be different then them.What is so bad about having sentiments or feelings? Devotional service is exchange of feelings between the Lord and his devotees. -
Sorry did not mean the devotees r sentimental like that. I agree it probably admirable to refrain from milk for those reasons.However to make a world philosophy out of it like what Devamrita swam seems to be doing....
Ysvt. -
Imho, it's better to buy organic milk than mass produced milk, supporting ugrakarmic megaenterprises, if the best solution (Prabhupada's) wasn't fully put in place to avoid this problem.
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My guess is that Krsna accepts what is offered to him with love and devotion, that's the main ingredient which he seeks for rather than milk.dweller-in-peace:
This part is correct :-) -
dweller-in-peace:
It is possible to console the mind and overcome the guilt which comes from buying milk from super market by this thinking. But it is a cheap solution and the cheap solutions will never let the real solution come forward which is to have our own protected cows. It is very very hard to follow a rule such as drinking milk only from protected cows. It is a big problem because it is very hard to find milk of protected cows when you live away from ISKCON farm. I admire these devotees who have decided to stick to the problem rather than opting for cheap solutions.Because they are so determined they will have Krsna's mercy and their own protected cows and milk to drink.
It may be very hard to follow a rule, but the important thing is whether it is a bona fide rule to follow. Obviously Srila Prabhupada wanted us to establish farms where cows are protected, but when did he ever say not to offer milk to Krishna unless it was from protected cows? If you want to make up your own rules for yourself, go ahead, but don't expect others to follow them.[br][br]
I can't even see how renouncing store-bought milk would do anything to protect cows. It's simply theoretical. If you are standing in a store somewhere and decide not to buy a gallon of milk, is any cow protected by that action? Maybe there is a cow in your mind who gets saved, but I don't see how any physical cow would benefit by that. On the other hand, by offering that milk to Krishna, the cows who gave that milk are unknowingly engaged in His service and thereby benefited. It seems to me that this could be the best way to give them a chance to be born on one of Krishna's devotee's farms after their lives are cut short in the slaughterhouse.[br][br]
Consdier this analogy. Suppose you were a guru and made up a rule that only people who were not suffering should be engaged in Krishna's service. Krishna prefers service by His pure devotees, so it makes sense, right? No. Naturally we want to free everyone from suffering, but it is by engagement in Krishna's service that one actually becomes free from suffering; and this process increases the number of devotees, both pure and aspiring. One becomes a pure devotee by engagement in Krishna's service, and so our mission is to try to somehow engage everyone in Krishna's service. Neglecting cows because they belong to a karmi farmer is impersonal. If we can help them to serve Krishna by offering their milk to Him, then we should do it.[br][br]
Oh, by the way, I do have a protected cow living at my home. She's not giving milk because our attempt at breeding her produced a false-pregnancy, and she stopped going into heat for two years after. Recently her cycle started again, so we are planning to give her another chance to get pregnant. -
Yes,Pandu's last point nails it,imho. The rest is just seems a little sentimental and confulated with mundane logic imho.
Ysvt. -
>On the other hand, by offering that milk to Krishna, the cows who gave that milk are unknowingly engaged in His service and thereby benefited.
This is good thinking from your side Pandu Prabhu, but it is much harder to maintain a goshala and look after cows whereas it is much easier to offer the milk of unprotected cows to Krsna and send them back to Godhead. I am not sure but may be this is the philosophy which is holding back ISKCON from development of its farms.
>If you are standing in a store somewhere and decide not to buy a gallon of milk, is any cow protected by that action? Maybe there is a cow in your mind who gets >saved, but I don't see how any physical cow would benefit by that.
I never said that cows will be saved by not buying milk from super market.There is no way to save that cow. People want to eat cow meat and they are going to kill her. Our buying milk from the store or not buying milk will not make any difference to that cow. It is not going to help in any way to that cow.
Not buying milk from unprotected cows is a matter of aesthetics.Cow has given birth to calf which has been slaughtered. Poor cow is distressed and then she is given hormone injections to increase the milk production and even if she doesn't want to give milk (there is no calf) she is forcefully milked by machines. This whole process feels ugly and some devotees just can't handle it. We all are different individuals with different aesthetics values. It may feel OK to one group of people whereas other group of people may not like it. I do not see any reason that if some devotees do not like it why they have to be criticised and condemned.
>If you want to make up your own rules for yourself, go ahead, but don't expect others to follow them.
I am not expecting any one to follow. If others want to drink milk from unprotected cows, it is not my business at all. But why would they criticise others who do not want to drink such milk.
>Recently her cycle started again, so we are planning to give her another chance to get pregnant.
My best wishes for your cow. Hopefully she will be pregnant this time. -
http://www.naturalnews.com/027325_raw_milk_health_food.html
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Well done Pandu das,,,,you have indeed nailed it .hare krishna
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