http://iskconstudies.org/iskcon-studies-journal-vol-one/tradition-and-dialogue-reflections-on-ravi-gupta%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%98walking-a-theological-tightrope%e2%80%99/

A false contradiction?
Sri Caitanya accepted a guru from an established sampradaya to give an example (BG 3.21-24), just like when He goes to school, etc.
Bhaktivinoda Thakura says the four Vaisnava sampradayas are preparing the ground for Sri Caitanya. Their teachings are not complete but establish tenets used in His siddhanta.
It's true that from the pov of acceptance Krsna as Bhagavan GV sampradaya is closer to Vallabha and Nimbarka.
More about Madhva-GV affiliation: http://www.iskcon.com/icj/11/04-gupta.html

But Vallabha sampradaya appeared later, Rudra sampradaya at the time did not have Vallabha and only later when Vallabha was established invited him to take up the chair of the acharya of Rudra sampradaya. But that was later.

Thanks for correcting me.

The above my link is a review of the link you posted;-)

Yeah but the evidence is in RR's article, esp. notes 26,27.

Actually our line is ultimately nourished by a siksa component more than diksa.Srila bhaktisiddanta saraswati Prabhupada refused to accept several of the diksa guru's within our sampradaya even though they initiated formally members.Hence the line is considered self evident in many ways ......your servant sri govinda das

My dear ccd ,have you heard who the diksa guru of srila bhaktivinoda thakura was?Sri chaitanya mahaprabhu appeared in a dream and informed sat cid annada bhaktivinoda to him as his diksa guru.

sri_govinda_das:

Also if one was to inquirer into the unique history of gaurakisore das babaji,one might be surprised to find that his guru was one bhagavat das babaji

Was it? what I was trying to say is something different (obviously I am aware that Srila Gaurakisora das babaji Maharaja did not take babaji from Bhaktivinoda Thakura, and I am aware of who he took the diksa from (and it is not Bhagavat das Babaji Maharaja. The point I was making is that there no written record of ANY rejection of any vaisnava or diksa guru by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta sarasvati Thakura. This is why I made a point - where do you get ANY notion of rejection if he himself never rejected anyone? Making siksa or bhagavat or however you call line of teachers and publishing it is not a rejection. Just as if you say that your prime connection is to Srila Prabhupada, it does not mean you REJECT TKG. It is just that you have and worship your guru Srila Prabhupada on the altar as part of Bhagavata Parampara, while you gurudeva, even if not on the altar, is the person who gave you the transcendental name.

[br][br]
I find putting in print any notions of rejections of vaisnavas a form of sadhu-ninda, and would not want it attributed to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta sarasvati Thakura. Did he ever put it in print?

My dear ccd mataji,please accept my kind regards,within gaudiya vaisnavism there are incredible differences of mood and siddhanta present.Maybe 8 - 10 years ago i went about trying to drag my humble devotional service into a proper philosophical light.Since i had stumbled along on automatic for a few years i felt necessary to enquire from my siksa guru about how to visualise and ascertain exactly how devotional credit or nourishment is transmitted from devotee to devotee.In my case i had the normal ''neophyte appreciation'' of what guru siddhanta means''diksa''.I get initiated serve my guru and it all stems and flows from him or her ...fullstop.
However i had certain reservations about my simplistic perception,though adequate it failed to satisfy completely when your spiritual master passes or he infact falls down which was what had happened to me personally when my diksa guru Bhavanada prabhu fall down.
Being a sankirtan devotee ,you find senior devotee association and ask?
Guru tattva being in the books seems very grand and self sufficent however practically without senior devotees mercy you don't actually go any place.Personally i think krishna has intentional done this to make us beg ,to allow these extensive layers of arrogance to be peeled off our backs one at a time .
Usually in an embarrassingly humble and humiliating way ,which usually allows one to eat sh**t when devotional humble pie is on the menu.In the old days the sanyasis used to yell at us very ,very loudly.....sometimes extremely aggressively..
Any way my siksa guru ,his divine grace srila Tamala krishna goswami was in a very different mood .He seemed very alert,sweet,with a devilish look in his eye.After hearing that he had recently been ''pulled into line'',by some of his godbrothers i was really intrigued.He seemed more settled and well...... satisfied.

That was the external conversation,however asking several questions i was able to form my own vision of what had infact happened.He mention a different mood than what iskcon was about at the time and this encouraged me signifigantly to search further.Basically his veiw was in summary that their was an a practical level of taking ones necessary encouragment,rasa,nourishment from those in our line who were uniquely qualified to instill in us that which was personally necessary for our individual needs.He was definitely saying it was a siksa line and not diksa,consequently several realisations had manifested along with new information and had given him increased vision and encouragment.Especially since he was a senior guru within Iskcon at the time, and on how things should infact proceed.

sri_govinda_das:

He was definitely saying it was a siksa line and not diksa,consequently several realisations had manifested along with new information and had given him increased vision and encouragment.Especially since he was a senior guru within Iskcon at the time, and on how things should infact proceed.

I know well how TKG can reply on a question, and what happens if you do not agree with his point of view;-) since my personal experience was that it is better not to do it...[br][br] However while it is siksa line, we do have a bona fide diksa line as well, nodoby rejected anyone and there is no need to reject a devotee who gave you the holy name. In the same way we accept that Lord Caitanyas guru (diksa) is Isvara Puri, even if he got sannyas or brahmana thread somewhere else.

I think he just wants to put down our diksa-line because it is leading to Jahnava-mata:-)

Also do you really think that all knowledge of krishna conciousness is limited by what is written in the books which you and i have at our disposal?Does iskcon have a similair opportunity to differentiate between the devotional line and the so called diksa component as you seem intent on,as happens in the gaudiya matha? ?How about the silver spoons which our srila Prabhupada gave to a wonderful sanyasis ,who then gave them to a householder ?Who himself became extremely empowered?Became a sanyasis and is now even more devotional, and even his diksa disciple knows the unique spiritual mood or rasa which is not confined to your diksa rasa?In other words ,like the catholics of old can there infact be internal knowledge not for everyone consumption which is essential for the advancment and spiritual nourishment.?How about the tiger hat which was given to srila Bhatisiddhanta saraswati Prabhupada by gaurakisore das babaji?Where does this fit within our understandings of diksa?....your servant sri_govinda das

My dear ccd,you have infact missed the substance of this siksa line ,viphin bihari goswami appears in our line as the diksa guru of sac did annanda bhaktivinoda thakur.At the time srila bhaktivinoda tahkur was at a loss to find a competent vaisnava who was actually inclined to preach.Due to the low ebb of the vaisnava culture within Bengal at the time ,smarta brahmana and sahaja's of all description had brought about the situation where by bhakti -devotional service to sri krishna was seen as a sad begging profession.Sri chaitanya mahaprabhu appeared within a dream ,and told srila Bhaktivinoda thakur to seek initiation from viphin bihari goswami......which he did ,much to the disgust of his son ......the future srila bhaktisiddanta saraswati goswami.

Within iskcon my new friend ccd, we are developing our unique ''guru siddanta'', guru truths or conclusions.We used to worship the guru's within the temple rooms with their own vyasasans as the supreme personality of godheads representatives.....but that is no longer.Hence it is my opinion that Iskcon is in a state of flux to a certain degree on how to proceed.....You are right about the diksa guru of gaurakisore das babaji maharaja......but i will finish tomorrow ,just came home from temple..your servant and hopefully new friend sri govinda das

sri_govinda_das:

Within iskcon my new friend ccd, we are developing our unique ''guru siddanta''

I trully hope we do not, we usually try to follow the siddhanta, and if we do not we develop something "new". So I beg to disagree with you. [br][br]
Prabhupada wasn't impressed, and complained about our propensity to always change things. "They manufacture ideas and spend money. This is the difficulty. Everyone manufactures some idea. And break it, do it, dig it." he told us a story. "There was a Mohammedan king, Nizamuddin. Nizamuddin, there is a tomb in Delhi. He was poet. So if some friends come he would read some writing, and he will suggest, the friend will suggest, 'Why don't you make like this.'
"'Oh, it is good. All right.' He'll do it. Whatever he says. And when he goes away, then again makes his own.[br][br]
"So the secretary said, 'Why you are changing?'[br][br]
"'What can I do? That is my friend. And that is nonsense; therefore I am again doing what I wrote.'[br][br]
"So we have to do that. As soon as you call anybody, he'll give you some suggestion. 'Make this alteration, make this alteration.'"[br][br]
after telling this story Prabhupada shook his head with good-humored resignation.[br][br][br][br]

While i understand that acarya is one who "cannot be expected to conform to a stereotype, for he must find the ways and means by which Krsna consciousness may be spread". Siddhanta or (determination of the actual truth, the final conclusion, by quotation from Vedic scriptures) in relation to guru-tattva is not something you can manufacture (unless you are a ritivik or something...) We do not manufacture our own teachings. So-called scholars and learned men manufacture their own teachings and give their opinions. In the West especially, we find much philosophical speculation and mental gymnastics, but such philosophy can never be perfect. We have to take our ideas from Bhagavan; then they will be perfect. We read Bhagavad-gita because it is perfect. There is no mistake in it; there is no illusion in it; there is no cheating in it. Nor is it delivered by one whose senses are imperfect. "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way." This Krsna consciousness philosophy is very easy because we do not manufacture ideas. We take the ideas and the words delivered by the Supreme Person, Krsna, or His incarnation or representative. His representative does not say anything which Krsna Himself does not say. It is very easy to be a representative, but one cannot be a representative of Krsna if one tries to interpret Krsna's words in a whimsical way.[br][br]
Because how you can manufacture perfect knowledge? You are imperfect. Your senses are imperfect. You are defective in four ways. You are... To err is human. You must commit mistake. You must be illusioned. Your senses are imperfect, and you have got a cheating propensity. These four defects are there.

My dear ccd,you seem intent on placing your head within the sand.....like an osterich when you find something does infact not suit your pleasant perception of krishna conciousness.Vipin bihari goswami was a diksa guru within our line but srila Bhaktididanta saraswati refused to accept his farther ,who was a'' Vaisnava ''needed any guidance or nourishment from someone who was intent on being offensive to sri raganatha das goswami.
Whom srila bhaktisiddanta had a very strong attachment for......he many times calls out for his blessings within his personal writings.Hence he rejected this'' caste goswami''because of his mixed alloyed devotional standards.Due to the nature of our parampara line he is indeed seen in a unusual light hence forth.Yes my ''nrisingha we are meant to be intent on pleasing our previous archarya's and spiritual masters by tuning our intelligence to their mood and perception of their vision.The '' unique'' mood of guru siddhanta which is being illustrated here by his divine grace srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati goswami maharaja should infact be a guiding light for those intelligent enough to ascertain the more pleasing ,more perfect way forward in my humble view....your servant govinda das.

So why ccd has iskcon changed how we worship our guru's within the temples?When i jioned Iskcon thirty odd years ago we had all the guru's on their own vyasasans within the temple itself......Now they no longer allow this.Because of guru fall downs and in my opinion ''god -brother immaturity''.It was an extremely wonderful experience to perform ecstatic guru puja worship to your own guru personally immediately after srila Prabhupada's guru puja.This was the accepted standard within our gaudiya line ......and within Iskcon till recently.Obviously the GBC changed things in their wisdom,but eventually i would hope things mature to a degree to once again return to the more genuine siddhanta....guru siddhanta.Personally now myself i have to learn how to see the ''good'' with the many senior godbrothers and vaisnava's within the gaudiya line.Because of my lack of purity i also suffer this disease of ''envy'' which inhibts my ability to serve and be governed by guru's mood and desire to preach.

Your perception of diksa.....is your problem,not what is accepted within iskcon, by those uniquely empowered......but this is about their individual devotional mood or unique rasa which enables them to do the sublime.Such as indradumya maharaja ,beacuse he received the mercy of his senior godbrother vishnujana maharaja and the Radha -damodara bus devotee's mercy.....that is why i told you the story of the silver spoons which were handed down from our srila Prabhupada .....unless your guru is familiar or indeed empowered he will fail to possibly appreciate this unique iskcon rasa of impowerment....sorry to upset your comfitable perceptions of things.But my siksa guru pased on his extremely valuable guru understandings to myself and in that mood i tried to offer it to you.However it is not appreciated by you....so please accept my humble obeisances all glories to guru and gauranga....But your book knowledge though adequate for you is indeed lacking and is unable to fully empower those who are truly sincere......hare krishna.

These humble guru's ,great souls were able to achieve far greater preaching results than previously was established within iskcon or the preaching environment.Actually these guru have fashioned a society far greater than was around when even srila Prabhupada was personally present.....that was indeed their contribution to their guru.My siksa guru Tamala krishna goswami was the senior most follower of srila Prabhupada in my veiw......Personally the gurupuja worship was initiated by our Founder Archarya within Iskcon...not any gaudiya matha guru ....once again you have seen srila Prabhupada's vision as suspect.....solid gold toilets are very dangerous for those who are still intent on finding fault or are immature.
As to how a disciple following srila Prabhupada attemps to please sincerely that is up to the individual.As my friend guru kripa das,a huge sankirtan collector from the seventies.....guru kripa goswami told us that he would not have cared if srila Prabhupada had washed the hundreds of thousands of dollars he collected down the toilets.It was up to him.

No you are not part of the Radha -damodara legacy ccd,nor the vishnujana swami-tamala krishna krishna goswami legacy nor are you a part of the iskcon which was empowered by srila Prabhupada sweetly gifting those silver spoons to radha and Damodara.But hopefully krishna might allow you to one day wash away your sad devotional inabilities and blissfully allow you within this transcendental sublime movement. Where your impersonalism is permanently vanquished and everything is truly sweet and satisfying,where devotees are enthusiastic beleiving that iskcon will save the world in that last moments .... .hare krishna.....we are not a mundane institution bereft of transcendental nectar prabhu........Some of us especially from the early days are not posessing this mundane vision of the guru.We are not crippled by this kripana mentality....hare krishna may Radha -damodara one day please allow you within.

---------- Forwarded Message ----------

Text PAMHO:16675543 (60 lines)
From: Bhakti Visrambha Madhava Swami
Date: 21-Dec-08 06:20 -0500 (22:20 +1100)
To: BDC (Book Distribution Curriculum) [427]
To: BDN (Book Distribution Nectar) [2808]
Subject: old sp story..
------------------------------------------------------------

Now it is the end of the marathon, and you must be exhausted. Please note
that My realizations (being that I am a pujari-cook by nature) of book
distribution is: you can only enthusiastically distribute the book that you
personally love. Unless that book has changed your life personally, You will
not be able to continue to change other peoples lives with that book for
very long time. some devotees distribute for a few years, but because they
only sell and don't read, they cannot continue it.

Srila Prabhupada in 1976 told us members of Radha Damodara TSKP in Mayapur
during His darshana the same:

"so You are distributing the books but do you read them also?" Prabhupada
asked us upon entering his room.

"Oh yes srila Prabhupada!" our sannyasi leader Tamal Krsna Maharaja
(confidentally white lied!_he knew we'ld not dare speak out and challenge
our sannyasi leader verbally.

yet we gave him such an incredulous look, all of us 80 boys..
it was obvious, Tamala Krsna Maharaja who was well intentionally trying to
hide the fact, was not truthfully forthcoming on it.

when 80--90 boys all young say 18-20 years old. all Heard that, it was like
we all crained our necks and looked at Tamal Krsna maharaja with shocking
surprise,, like silently speaking "You said what???"

Srila Prabhupada was smart, clever, he could clearly understand that Tamal
Krsna Maharaja was hiding the real truth, (due to intense competition from
Jayatirtha in London and elsewhere).

Srila Prabhupada was Indignant with Anger...

"So you are distributing the books, and suppose you come up to me and you
give me a book. and I ask you, "You are selling me this book but do you know
what is written inside this book," what will you reply to him.

He wanted a reply directly from us, we got scared and kept our mouth shut.

"what will you say!!!" he demanded. Ohhh we got really scared and we didn't
reply.

Srila Prabhupada's heart got soft. he didn't want to intimidate or scare his
surrendered disciples, just wanted to instruct us... "nooooooooo (like the
father he is) "You must readddddd!!!

then we all hung our heads downwards. reading was like sense gratification
for us, we read only when there was no one to sell books to, or when wew
slinkered down in between two cars to hide, if the police were looking to
catch us in shopping centres.

reading? only van leaders amongst us were reading! we were selling books 9
am to p pm who's got time to read?

yet those very van leaders were the most steadfast ones' who never left
Iskcon, not like the ones who don't read the books.

yours in the service of Krsna BalarAma,

TridaNDi BhikSu, Bhakti Visrambha MAdhava
(Text PAMHO:16675543) --------------------------------------

------- End of Forwarded Message ------

Dear mishra prabhu, krishna decides ....you usually are no longer around,or you are inimical and sadly no longer progress.But the nourishment resides and you become faithless ,callous and attack senior devotees like the inhabitants of ''sun sampradaya editorial staff''.

My dear ccd, at least you could indeed fathom the perferted reflection of srila Prabhupada's silver spoons and the simple sweet loving affairs which was shared between him and vishnujana swami.well done prabhu....isn't it a sweet sampradaya rasa .Don't worry prabhu i am going to pray for your future advancement.

As for Visnujana (ex-swami) Perhaps he did commit suicide, but the factual details of this account were doctored up? I vaguely remember that we were told that Srila Prabhupada had said that "Vishnujana is hiding." I can't remember the timeline on this, whether he said this before or after he said "He should not have done this."

Thank you borokrishna das,for the opportunity to hear from some old freinds like lohitaksa prabhu.He jioned up just after myself ,in murwillambah if i remember correctly and his ex-wife kamodaki devi dasi is serving in Auckland..new Zealand.It is sad such devotees are not mature enough to take responsibility for their own devotional activities,however all is not lost.Could the devotees in question please outline how they were forced by his grace tamala krishna goswami......did the authorities hold a gun to their heads!Beat them up !,Pioson or just ask them nicely in a dramatically dangerous manner.Or realising they were unable for what ever reason to appreciate their new guru's mood ,just be humble and admit they made a substantial mistake themselves.
Since his divine grace tamala krishna goswami has left to serve srila Prabhupada according to his will and desire,these devotees are hopefully able to spoon feed themselves krishns conciousness.If they have taken shelter of the sastra they can understand that we are in need also of siksa guru to give us shelter.Especially since this is considered a bhagavat parampara,or predominantly siksa inspired line according to his divine grace Srila Bhaktisiddanta swami.

Yes, it seems Visnujana Swami could not appreciate TKG... but we like them all. I was told TKG had changed a lot in his last years in UK. I was told a lot of very good things about him at that stage.