..no it is not.Why do you think he has a hidden agenda ? what do you think it is ?

Vrindavan istagosthi addressing '' gopi bhava '' and narayanna maharaja....A sad attempt to label senior vaisnava's as sahaja's by neophyte devotees on sun sampradaya .....because they went for ''siksa'' guidance but later terminated this ....because of how it was disturbing godbrothers who are unevolved and unable to appreciate their own initiating guru godbrothers....unfortunately. .

TKG was banned by his GBC godbrothers not by Sampradaya Sun.

TKG and other senior leaders were banned from ISKCON by GBC because they were visiting Narayana Maharaja to get instructions on Raganuga Bhakti. Why do you blame Sampradaya Sun for it? They have just reported the incident.

Please give me the details of gbc resolution,what month and meeting i would love to read more please......thank you....Prabhu.

>Sorry ''dweller in peace '',where is the gbc resolution...
>Please give me the details of gbc resolution,what month and meeting i would love to read more please......thank you....Prabhu.
>Hello is ''dweller in peace'' still there....about the gbc resolution could you please give us the exact details.....i would be very interested Prabhu.

1992-95:

TKG's understanding of guru-ship takes a further radical twist as he begins preaching that Srila Prabhupada had not given the 'highest understanding' and that everyone should take guidance from the rasika guru Narayana Maharaja, As a result of his sustained deviancy the GBC suspended TKG for the second time.
(This is from IRM website)

You can google and look yourself for 1992 to 1995 resolutions because that is the time when he was suspended. I can't spend any more time on this, because this topic really doesn't interest me. Good luck with your research.

Hari bol.

But ''dweller in peace'' your source is an apa- sampradaya group also......these people are not part of iskcon.....they are intent on destroying Prabhupada's movement....That is what that sight is hence you are also intent on this ritvik nonsense also .....And destroying his society.

>Is sun sampradaya ''trafficking in vaisnava aparadha''?

They are, so what? There are a few dozen sites that do exactly the same, honesty is good but Prabhupada was against freedom of speech. So it depends on what you want in your life and whom you want to follow. It is not a good site if you want to progress in your chanting and hearing... but it is great for those who think bhakti yoga is a mundane excise in knowledge and religiosity, truthfulness and debate. But even then, they are publishing lies all the time. Would never recommend it as a good reading to friends.

Actually TKG was not 'suspended' in 1995 either. Harivilas and Suhotra were getting on his case, but he remained on GBC that year. He was fried that ISKCON broke up with Narayana Maharaja. Actually that was a point of contention in 1995, I personally think it would have been better if a compromise ground was found at the time in communication with NM. But hey they did not ask me for my opinion:-)

> Were you in ISKCON in those years?

How is it related to the topic at hand? This is 2nd red herring from you.

You've referred to GBC resolutions and I've found nothing related to the suspension of TKG there. Obviously you didn't check for yourself, preferring blind copypasting from ritvik sites.

> he was chanting in a different place

In 1993 I was chanting in Prague and around. 8)

hey thats not truth about Rocan p. he is 100% loyal to S. Prabhupada and his website is the only one that vaisnavas can breeth some fresh air of freedom of expression. We must exersize our God giving discrimination and try to see how he smass all this ritvic theory ect. You shud read his far out thesis about our Sampradaya acharya S. Prabhupada to see how much he apreciates and loves S. Prabhupada. All other web sites like dandavat ect. they never deal with any controversial issue, only presenting "good news" But most of us we been 30-35 years around iskcon know for sure that there are many , many issues never been try to resolve, just thinking that if we just chant everything will automaticaly get resolve.

The IRM site does not say he was suspended from the GBC. It vaguely suggests that his initiating privileges were suspended with no mention of a GBC Resolution:

1992-95:[br]
TKG's understanding of guru-ship takes a further radical twist as he begins preaching that Srila Prabhupada had not given the 'highest understanding' and that everyone should take guidance from the 'rasika* guru' Narayana Maharaja, who one former GBC chairman described as:[br][br]

'...a crooked and talented pretender or impostor, who has seduced, beguiled [br]
(Ravindra Svarupa das, 'Taking Srila Prabhupada Straight', 1998)[br][br]

As a result of his sustained deviancy the GBC suspended TKG for the second time.[br][br]

1995:[br]
TKG now denounces his previous four years of proselytising on behalf of Narayana Maharaja as a 'mistake', admitting that he was in fact wrong to say that everyone needed a rasika-guru. Of course by now the damage had been done, reverberations of which continue to this day with Narayana Maharaja grabbing huge chunks of ISKCON all over the world. Still, TKG's capitulation allowed him to be once again re-instated as an ISKCON guru. He was back in the guru business yet again.

I don't know the original reference for this is, but it's mentioned in at least a few places on the Internet. One site seems to indicate that it is covered in _Betrayal of the Spirit_. Whether it is true or not, I don't know; but considering the nature of the topic, I would not expect to see any word of the issue on ISKCON sites, which invariably whitewash unflattering facts. [br][br]

Here is one interesting statement from one of Srila Prabhupada's disciples on NM's site:

You should remember that HH Sivarama Swami HH Tamal Krishna Swami HH Giriraja Swami and so many others all worshipped Srila Narayan Maharaja with love honor and reference and they only stopped, when threatened by the rest of the GBC that they would loose their positions and disciples if they continued their association with Srila Narayan Maharaja. I still remember the GBC letter on the notice board in Bhaktivedanta Manor. (http://srilanarayanmaharaja.com/?q=node/28)

Here's more detail (awkwardly translated courtesy of Google):[br]

The tension finally came to a head at the anniversary celebration of Srila Prabhupada's entering the sannyasa order, traditionally held at the Narayana Maharaja's temple where the actual sannyasa ceremony had taken place in 1959. Tamal Krishna Goswami and Giriraja Swami Prabhupada rather than glorifying, used the occasion to praise the Narayana Maharaja, his association is recommending all of ISKCON. Narayana Maharaja spoke next. He pointed out that there were many higher Prabhupada's teachings that could have given his disciples had been more advanced. He implied that Prabhupada's missionary work was elementary and ISKCON Devotees were now ready for the more advanced stage of Krishna consciousness, which he could give.
[br][br]
Though none at the meeting voiced their protest, and the indignation evoked by these speeches reverberated world-wide. Many felt that things had gone too far and that the GBC must now take a firm stand. Narayana Maharaja's followers, however, would not back down, believing that he was misunderstood, they met other ISKCON leaders in India, Europe and North America to promote their cause. But they had not correctly anticipated the response, especially from the North American temple presidents. This influential group, the same who were primarily responsible for putting an end to the zonal-acarya era, demanded those following Narayana Maharaja be stripped of their positions. Many feared that the movement was heading for a major Schism.
[br][br]
This time the GBC was companies. The Rasika-bhakti controversy was first on the 1995 annual meeting's agenda. A week of thorough investigation of the implicated members brought in line. They admitted that by promoting a non-ISKCON authority and his teachings, they had relativised Prabhupada and his teachings. Many neophyte Devotees were already following their example and, as Prabhupada had predicted during the gopi-bhava affair, missionary activities were being minimized to focus on personal spiritual advancement. [br][br]

Asked to suggest what they might do to make amends, the leaders involved with the controversy tendered their resignations, which the GBC promptly refused. They further volunteered to refrain from initiating new disciples or visiting Vrndavana until their case could be reassessed the following year. They promised to disassociate themselves entirely from Narayana Maharaja and to correct any misunderstandings created by their past behavior. When the year passed, the GBC was not entirely convinced of their Contrition and at the March 1996 meeting insisted on maintaining most of the restrictions.

(http://tinyurl.com/yg92jy4)[br][br] Perhaps there's something to it...

Bhakta Paul Howard if you want to be a follower of ISKCON,why do you descend to a site that is full of Blaspheme and criticism of ISKCON gbc members...?Who unable to see that the American Yatra is indeed suffering because of their inability to see the good in other devotees.Where does srila Prabhupada say that we should drag down the GBC...AND ISKCON SOCIETY ?This..Bogus IRM site will not take you anywhere except keep you ignorant ,envious and disturbed.As krishna says within Bhagavad gita.15;15....sarvasya ca ham hrdi sannivisto mattah smritir jnanam apohanam ca..vedias ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedanta krd veda vid eva caham .....i am seated in everyones heart,and from me come rememberance ,knowledge and forgetfulness.By all the veda's i am to be known.......So krishna has given you what you wantforgetfulness of your eternal nature as ''servant of the servant''....ritvik -nonsense attacks the other servants of srila Prabhupada like his grace Bhakti tirha swami.As you said yourself previously ....you had a problem with his sincere devotees glorifying him on his vyasa puja for hours,while they did not do the same for srila Prabhupada.......Sorry but bhakta paul howard that is indeed the spiritual process,one has to bow down and indeed become the ''servant of the servant''of the guru personally present.

sri_govinda_das:

Bhakta Paul Howard if you want to be a follower of ISKCON,why do you descend to a site that is full of Blaspheme and criticism of ISKCON gbc members...?Who unable to see that the American Yatra is indeed suffering because of their inability to see the good in other devotees.Where does srila Prabhupada say that we should drag down the GBC...AND ISKCON SOCIETY ?This..Bogus IRM site will not take you anywhere except keep you ignorant ,envious and disturbed.

If you're competent, why don't you write a refutation to TFO and get it approved by the GBC? As I understand it, all their opposition papers have so far contradicted each other and been withdrawn due to errors. [br][br]

sri_govinda_das:

As krishna says within Bhagavad gita.15;15....sarvasya ca ham hrdi sannivisto mattah smritir jnanam apohanam ca..vedias ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedanta krd veda vid eva caham .....i am seated in everyones heart,and from me come rememberance ,knowledge and forgetfulness.By all the veda's i am to be known.......So krishna has given you what you wantforgetfulness of your eternal nature as ''servant of the servant''....ritvik -nonsense attacks the other servants of srila Prabhupada like his grace Bhakti tirha swami.As you said yourself previously ....you had a problem with his sincere devotees glorifying him on his vyasa puja for hours,while they did not do the same for srila Prabhupada.......Sorry but bhakta paul howard that is indeed the spiritual process,one has to bow down and indeed become the ''servant of the servant''of the guru personally present.

ISKCON Law as amended in the 1999 GBC resolution 6.4.8.1.2 states:

"ISKCON members shall celebrate Srila Prabhupada's Vyasa-puja ceremony as the preeminent Vyasa-puja ceremony in ISKCON. All ISKCON members are requested to write an annual Vyasa-puja offering to Srila Prabhupada. Vyasa-puja for ISKCON gurus other than Srila Prabhupada should only be observed on one day a year. This celebration may be held in the temple room. ISKCON members conducting Vyasa-puja ceremonies for ISKCON siksa and diksa gurus shall observe them in a modest way, significantly less elaborate in duration and cost than Srila Prabhupada's Vyasa-puja...

Why should disciples of an ISKCON guru, with the guru's consent, be able to violate ISKCON law without repercussion?

[br][br]
In the same 1999 resolutions, it is also stated:

ISKCON law 6.4.8.2:

"No one in ISKCON will be addressed either publicly or privately with honorific title "His Divine Grace" or the honorifics ending in "-pada". Disciples may address their ISKCON diksa or siksa gurus as "Gurudeva" or "Guru-maharaja"."

I have seen you apply the honorific "His Divine Grace" to Tamal Krsna Gosvami repeatedly in this forum, in fact in the above comment. How is it that you flaunt ISKCON law and yet consider yourself a member in good standing? [br][br]

It further states:

407. [ACTION ORDER] DEADLINE FOR IMPLEMENTATION

It is therefore resolved THATall ISKCON diksa and siksa gurus and other authorities are responsible to instruct initiated devotees and aspiring initiates in the above mentioned details of worship and see that they are implemented no later than Srila Prabhupada's Vyasa-puja celebration in 1999. After that time, devotees who fail to uphold these practices shall be subject to censure.

Have your gurus failed to instruct you in this matter, or did you reject their instruction? [br][br]

No doubt this may seem like a nasty attack to you, but it is a serious and relevant matter. The GBC wants to regulate the gurus, and the gurus want to be above such regulation. Srila Prabhupada never explained how the GBC would balance authority with multiple initiating gurus. One may fault Srila Prabhupada for overlooking this important subject, but in light of the the other supporting evidence, the direct, obvious answer is that he did not instruct on this subject because he never authorized anyone to be diksa gurus nor did he authorize the GBC to do so. [br][br]

Srila Prabhupada:

A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.[br]
(Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)

My dear Bhakta Paul Howard i take your valid rectification seriously....Hence forth i shall call my guru the'' supreme servitor of his divine grace''or The foremost servant of his divine grace.So how does ''supreme servitor of his divine grace ,srila Tamala -krishna goswami sound to you Prabhu?

Interesting speculation Prabhu about the Guru siddhanta,Since we are in fact part of Brahma-Madva gaudiya Sampradaya .Even Srila Prabhupada is unable to change certain features of our Disciplic succession ...Otherwise he would have been crucified rightfully by his godbrothers....even he is indeed subordinate to Rupa Goswami Prabhupada within our line.He is not considered as a Sampradaya Archarya outside our line Prabhu...Generally the other gaudiya Matha temples are usually consulted naturally when such extreme status is determined within the whole Sampradaya and not just Iskcon.

I am a very extreme person Prabhu...In one sense i also look to rebel first when offered genuine advice meant for my own benefit.Hare krishna....Also i miss the old days...when we could place our guru's on a large vyasasana and worship them like they were infact representatives of the supreme personality of Godhead.....So i am the other end of the spectrum.I hope that one day we go back to the real vaisnava culture.....large vyasasanas,truck loads of opulence all to worship guru and krishna.Icould go on but it is not the mood in todays enviroment.

Sri Govinda Prabhu,

I came to the Hare Krishna movement in pursuit of the absolute truth, and I just want to know what's really going on with ISKCON. If someone is accepting worship, I expect him to be a pure, liberated soul fully engaged in devotional service. I would love if I could meet a man who could inspire me like Srila Prabhupada does, but I just don't expect it to happen. I believe in Srila Prabhupada because he introduced me to Krishna through his Bhagavad-gita As It Is, and Krishna in turn certified him as His pure devotee. I don't expect to see Krishna again in this lifetime, so how will I know if there is someone to whom I can surrender? Something like 2/3 of the gurus who have initiated devotees in ISKCON have fallen, so it's obvious that picking a guru is tricky business. Personally I'd rather make my own mistakes, if I'm going to make them, than base my spiritual life on worshiping and making the orders of some pretender my life and soul.

When Bhaktimarga Swami told started talking to me on the phone about a subject that I had not brought up, I felt mystified, thinking that the Supersoul was speaking through him. Then he said, "I don't know where I heard that," and I became somewhat perplexed. A few days later I found out that he had brought it up because two devotees had just called him and told him to talk to me about it, trying to use his authority to manipulate me. In a short time he went from a humble guru to seeming in direct contact with God to looking like a spineless, devious rat. I have forgiven him for it, and I even tried to accept him as a guru, but I just can't do it. I can't put my faith in him again. It's just not possible for me. If that means I don't get to go back to Godhead any time soon, then there's really nothing I can do about it because it would not be honest of me to pledge myself to another guru. Not honest to me, to him, to my family, or to the world.

I don't mean to offend devotees, but it's very upsetting to feel like I have been betrayed by ISKCON and so often harassed by its members. It hurts me very deep inside. When I looked into the rtvik issue, I was surprised to see that they had very good arguments. I could not defeat them, and I felt that I could defeat the other side with what they were saying. Does that make me a demon? I don't think so. I'm sure not a pure devotee; that's not even a realistic question. But after the Gita-nagari community rejected me, an honest family man trying to do what is right, in favor of a devotee who was found by a devotee jury to be an unrepentant child molester and who was travelling around with young ladies supposedly protecting them, I had to look deep into my heart to see if I really was a demon. I stopped chanting Hare Krishna because I felt that if devotees rejected me then Krishna must not like me. Finally I decided that was wrong, very wrong. I'm sincerely trying to serve Srila Prabhupada despite constant harassment from maya devi. I'm trying to please Krishna in my own small way. He gave me a job to do, to teach my family to appreciate Krishna consciousness, and I'm doing it. Krishna knows my heart very well, and I believe Srila Prabhupada knows it too, and despite my many faults I fully believe they are accepting my service. I'm sorry if my writing is disturbing anyone in a bad way, but I'm just another jiva soul trying each day to do my best in a world with not nearly enough Krishna consciousness. I never wanted to leave ISKCON, but if ISKCON cannot accept my relationship with Srila Prabhupada, then ISKCON isn't for me. I guess we'll see how it plays out. Hari bol.

I was trained as a sankirtan devotee and like you i am a husband and farther of 4 devotee children.Aged from 10 months to 14 years....two girls and two teen aged boys.So i do appreciate your situation to a degree i think.What is ''iskcon up to with the guru's''....you ask?

Iskcon will not have these problems for ever because there are extremely qualified individuals coming through the ranks.My sons and daughters are ''real devotees ''literally from a very young age .They are just genuinely far more'' krishna- concious'',though naturally lazy when i am not around they accept bhagavad gita ,mahabharat..ect.easily and speak sanskrit in our morning classes easily with genuine sincerity.They have not been drenched in the modes of material ignorance and passion like we have.Srila Prabhupada also said that the second generation of devotees...the children would be capable....to say the least.They have not gone to karmi schools so are very natural in their advancment thankfully.

Though i have a guru who has left and gone to serve with srila Praqbhupada in Tamala krishna goswami presently i listen to an old freind ''atma -tattva das'' most days because my wife is looking for a guru herself.He is number one in iskcon for philosophy in my opinion.Don't worry you were right to take shelter of srila Prabhupada .He is our father guru....and is the foundation for us to build everthing on.

Our guru siddhanta is unique, iskcon in nature.... because they become qualified on the job.Just by doing ...with the help of the supersoul we all benefit if we are sincere.....that is the problem.We are not as sincere as we should be Pandu Prabhu.

ccd- "Prabhupada along with his senior godbrothers voted for an acharya after the disappearance of BSST. And Ananta vasudeva was an acharya."

do u have reference,thanks.

ccd:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/18502294/Ananta-Vasudeva

I have been hearing about this version of events from several different sources over the years and it makes a lot more sense to me than stories circulating in Iskcon, especially the one about poisoning and suicide.