Is there an instance,within gaudiya vaisnavaism of a ''ritvik''guru system?

Can't find any myself however i am attempting to get authoritive information to substantiate their claims....

VEDA

Suhotra Swami mentions one case in kartabhaja apasampradaya: http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/library/Apasamp.zip
Nothing in any genuine Vaisnava or any other Vedic sampradayas though.
Suggested in Gaudiya Math after BSST tirobhava, rejected after about five minutes.

>Suhotra Swami mentions one case in kartabhaja apasampradaya: http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/library/Apasamp.zip

Easy to criticize ritviks but hard to follow sanyasa. There are many ritviks who are serious devotees so could it be because of this criticism. One need to be careful.

deena

Yes. In Iskcon, Srila Prabhupada used the rtvik system to conduct initiations. After he left his body the rtvik initiation system was discontinued.

VEDA

suparna: It's no criticism of ritviks. It simply shows this idea is avaidika. No logical connection with sannyasa here.
How can be a person a serious devotee, if he doesn't seriously study siddhanta? Serious sadhana is not all in all, rather it's easily undercut by aparadha and following of apasiddhanta.

borokrsnadasa

suparna:
>Suhotra Swami mentions one case in kartabhaja apasampradaya: http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/library/Apasamp.zip

Easy to criticize ritviks but hard to follow sanyasa. There are many ritviks who are serious devotees so could it be because of this criticism. One need to be careful.

Why do you need to be sannyasi anyway? What a bogus idea that to be an advanced devotee one needs to be a sannyasi.

borokrsnadasa

deena:
Yes. In Iskcon, Srila Prabhupada used the rtvik system to conduct initiations. After he left his body the rtvik initiation system was discontinued.

Actually he used it for years from 1971 or even before without calling it 'ritivik'. While Bon Maharaj was giving initiations when Sarasvati Thakura was on the planet as well.

Kula-pavana

IMO instead of concentrating on the word 'ritvik' (which did not originate from Srila Prabhupada), devotees should concentrate on the phrase 'officiating acharya' which was his exact choice of words.

In the common sense of this word, to 'officiate' simply means 'to perform a function', 'to act as', 'to hold the office of'. In other words these devotees chosen by Srila Prabhupada were to 'hold the office of acharya within Iskcon', to 'perform the function of an institutional acharya'. IMO it all goes back to the historical setup of the Gaudiya Math after Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's passing, where several senior sannyasis were functioning as the acharyas within one institution, as opposed to the more traditional setup where religious institution just has one acharya. Multi acharya institutions are relatively common among the Madhvas and Sri Vaishnavas, especially in larger centers.

Sorry but put in another way has any ''gaudiya guru'' initiated .....Or any of the three other Vaisnava Sampradaya's initiated ''direct'' Rupa Goswami Prabhupada Disciples or Direct disciples of Radharani.....Or even direct disciples of sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu...Direct disciples of Sri Nityananda prabhu.....Even direct disciples of sri Krishna himself.....by ''orthodox'' not apa-sampradaya lines please .This would infact be a justification for ''ritvik'' claims.....would it not!
In other words there should be a large group of direct disciples all having an intimate direct relationship with there ''guru'',so we would have''direct'' disciples of srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati Prabhupada everywhere....direct disciples of radharani every where.Direct disciples of Narada muni everywhere........These would be the valid symptoms of such a vaisnava system.....would it not.....Prabhus.

So kula-pavanna prabhu which senior sannyasis took this opportunity to initiate direct disciples of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.......or Direct Radharani disciples...or Direct Srila Rupa goswami Prabhupada disciples or Krishna himself.....how about Srila Narrotama das takura .....this would validify the ''ritvik claims''Because they have not personally accepted the follower....how would this be acheived since Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati Prabhupada deemed it to be essential that guru and disciple meet and accept each other.....Where is the historical record of hundreds of Srila Rupa goswami disciples within the gaudiya matha being initiated by such sanyasis, or any other Radharani direct disciples ...prabhu.Can anyone show such a thing within the gaudiya line or a bonifide disciplic succession?....

Kula-pavana

sri_govinda_das:
So kula-pavanna prabhu which senior sannyasis took this opportunity to initiate direct disciples of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu..

The system of initiations Srila Prabhupada used for several years prior to his departure was a PROXY initiation, where one person is authorized to act in the name of another. The word 'ritvik' was never used in the Vedic literatures or Vaishnava writings to denote proxy initiations. And the idea of proxy initiations carried forward after the departure of the authorizing guru is not at all based on scriptures or tradition.

Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu did not initiate any disciples and He certainly did not make Himself a diksa guru for the next 10,000 years.

Thank you Kula-pavanna prabhu,but iam trying to find sastric history,which has a similarity to what is envisaged by the IRM website ...where no personal acceptance happened by the guru.Yes prabhu i agree that the idea of proxy initiations carried forward after the departure of the guru seems a myth ,but that is what this challenge is to those propounding such ideas in reality! Thank you prabhu....

Yes deena and borokrishna das,You are right many direct disciples were initiated by this system ....while srila Prabhupada was indeed personally present.Madhudwisa swami gave mantra to many direct disciples of srila Prabhupada after 1971 actually..However their was a personal acceptance of these devotees by srila Prabhupada.I am trying to find where it is sanctioned to just use the guru like a ''door mat''...without his personal consent like what the ritviks propound....can you give us any examples please?Also since Srila Rupa goswami Prabhupada was infact the sampradaya archarya and a direct disciple of the supreme lord....why stop at our Srila Prabhupada why not take him....he is actually the fully empowered Sampraday archarya ...Which the whole Gaudiya line accepts his sublime authority....unfortunately many gaudiya godbrothers fail to appreciate our Srila Prabhupada...

Where is the ''Ritvik Archarya'' line deena and borokrishna das?

Borokrishna das the gaudiya matha standard is to be a real preacher......one ideally renounces his troublesome material situation.Yes this includes women ,children and all other secondry engagments...Though you regard this as bogus!....it was infact the standard for those intent on sincerely being fully surrendered.This what was suggested to our archarya Srila PRABHUPADA to enable him to be taken seriously by other renunciates.This sanyasis mentality was instituted by his nrsingha guru.....previously it was accepted that one would take babaji initiation...after household existence..There was an absence of a sanyasis ashram ....because this was intended for preaching to the less fortunate.How this was indeed encouraged by srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati takura to give ''status '' to such preachers,while also making'' guru'' by the score to lead society in general..

Pandu das

sri_govinda_das:
I am trying to find where it is sanctioned to just use the guru like a ''door mat''...without his personal consent like what the ritviks propound....can you give us any examples please?

Srila Prabhupada deputed rtviks to give consent on his behalf in the July 9 letter.[Br][br]

July 9, 1977 letter:
In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee's initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.

So Pandu das .....This is the only example from the history of Gaudiya Vaisnavaism which you can find of a supposed ''ritvik'' branch being started....?Please tell us there is more examples......! One letter taken completely out of Vaisnava context! My guru wrote it and typed it under his guru's instructions .....and you know better than him!
Please show us more sastric evidence please....one letter is that all you and your team have ,and for this many ritviks want to destroy the chain of Disciplic succession......You honestly must have more Prabhu.....Even a sloka out of ''bhagavad gita''?Can anyone please show us a sloka out of ''bhagavad gita'' where the guru is allowed to change the authorised process of disciplic succession....to '' and no more guru's ..........''ritvik'' long distance and your guru never meets you.....and you never get chastised or loved ....shown the error of your ways.Because he personally never even knows you!And you never even know him!

Evam parampara praptam imam rajarsayo viduh,sa kaleneha mahata yogo nastah parantapa...Bhagavad gita as it is....Chapter 4 verse 2....This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession,and the kings understood it in that way.....

Pandu das

sri_govinda_das:
So Pandu das .....This is the only example from the history of Gaudiya Vaisnavaism which you can find of a supposed ''ritvik'' branch being started....?Please tell us there is more examples......!

Srila Prabhupada's written order is not good enough for you? [br][br]

One letter taken completely out of Vaisnava context! My guru wrote it and typed it under his guru's instructions .....and you know better than him!

As I told you, TKG confessed to cheating to become a zonal acarya, and then in that position he grossly abused his power. I don't trust him.[br][br]

Please show us more sastric evidence please....one letter is that all you and your team have

That letter was an order sent to all the ISKCON leaders, and was a follow-up to a direct question for how Srila Prabhupada wanted initiations to be conducted after his disappearance. He then sent three more letters to rtviks telling them to do the rtvik thing, and there's another statement in the Vedabase wherein he tells TKG to continue to become rtvik. There is also evidence in Srila Prabhupada's will, etc. Really, it's a waste of time going over this with you again. Srila Prabhupada had a system established that would allow for him to give initiations assisted by rtviks after his disappearance, and it was terminated without his authorization. The GBC has been trying to figure out how to make something work ever since, and they still haven't got it.[br][br]

,and for this many ritviks want to destroy the chain of Disciplic succession

But you don't think having bogus sannyasis hanging out in shorts (or less) with ladies, no tilak or brahman thread, no sikha, no danda, etc., preaching that Srila Prabhupada has been proven wrong by modern social science, etc... (and that's just one guy out of many who have made ISKCON look ridiculous), that's not destroying the disciplic succession. [br][br]

......You honestly must have more Prabhu.....Even a sloka out of ''bhagavad gita''?Can anyone please show us a sloka out of ''bhagavad gita'' where the guru is allowed to change the authorised process of disciplic succession....to '' and no more guru's ..........''ritvik'' long distance and your guru never meets you.....and you never get chastised or loved ....shown the error of your ways.Because he personally never even knows you!And you never even know him!

How do you know what the Founder-Acarya is able to do or not to do for the sake of keeping Vaisnava siddhanta intact? From your independent study? Why must you reject Srila Prabhupada's order and look elsewhere to speculate on what he wanted? Obviously Srila Prabhupada did not consider it essential to meet every one of his disciples, either before initiation or after, because he initiated many disciples whom he never met, exchanged letters, saw, or spoke with. Who are you to impose additional requirements, as if Srila Prabhupada cannot relate to devotees he has not physically met? [br][br]
You don't think I can open one of Srila Prabhupada's books and feel praised or chastised when seeing what is written there? I have much more of a relationship with him than with the devotee who did my initiation ceremony. I have been chanting Hare Krishna for nearly fifteen years because of Srila Prabhupada. How dare you dismiss his personal influence in my life?!!

Pandu das

VEDA:
suparna: It's no criticism of ritviks. It simply shows this idea is avaidika. No logical connection with sannyasa here.
How can be a person a serious devotee, if he doesn't seriously study siddhanta? Serious sadhana is not all in all, rather it's easily undercut by aparadha and following of apasiddhanta.

How many times are you going to repeat the word "apasiddhanta" without proof, as if saying it again and again will somehow make it true?

Since you are unable to quote sastra pandu das,from any of the bhakti literatures which include the immense literatures written by Srila Rupa goswami Prabhupada and the six goswamis of vrindavana,krishna das kaviraja maharaja,baladeva vidyabushana,Narrotama das takura and visvanath chakravati takura....to name just a few....your view though valid to yourself is in fact apa-sampradaya.It is simply modes of material nature.....maya.
Srila Prabhupada always quoted bhagavad gita.....disciplic succession ...evam parapraptam......he wrote many purports in bhagavad gita about this topic please read if you want to follow his teachings......please go back to bhakta school ..

My word is apa- sampradaya....it means that you are attempting to destroy our teachings..Against the conclusion of srila Prabhupada....just maya....Which since you cannot quote any thing means you have been defeated.

So we have another sastric quote to help..chapter 2 verse 41.......vyavasayatmika buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana,bahu-sakha hy anantas ca,buddhayo 'vyavasayinam.Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose,and their aim is one.o beloved child of kurus,the entelligence of those who are irresolute is many branched.....the third paragraph reads....

Service in Krsna consciousness is, however, best practiced under the able guidance of a spiritual master who is a bona fide representative of Krsna, who knows the nature of the student and who can guide him to act in Krsna consciousness. As such, to be well-versed in Krsna consciousness one has to act firmly and obey the representative of Krsna, and one should accept the instruction of the bona fide spiritual master as one's mission in life.,,,,

Here srila Prabhupada is mentioning the personal side of accepting a spiritual master.....He knows the nature of his student....and is able to guide as a result.Then as a result of the disciple being well versed......that is the personal qualification of the disciple....he obeys and puts his intructions into practice....After this the disciple having pleased his guru,is personally is enlivened...as a result he accepts the order of the guru as his life and soul.....How can you do this with neophytes who have no personal guru present....

Simply impossible for 99% of devotees....personal guru is the best....as stated above.

VEDA

Paul: As long as you continue to recycle your old arguments, unrelated to this thread. Since we're not kartabhajas (guru as the only pramana), you have nothing in your hands. I don't think you can admit it though.

> You don't think I can open one of Srila Prabhupada's books and feel praised or chastised when seeing what is written there? I have much more of a relationship with him than with the devotee who did my initiation ceremony. I have been chanting Hare Krishna for nearly fifteen years because of Srila Prabhupada. How dare you dismiss his personal influence in my life?!!

Great. But don't call yourself his diksa disciple.

ccd

Pandu das:
[quote]
VEDA:
suparna: It's no criticism of ritviks. It simply shows this idea is avaidika. No logical connection with sannyasa here.
How can be a person a serious devotee, if he doesn't seriously study siddhanta? Serious sadhana is not all in all, rather it's easily undercut by aparadha and following of apasiddhanta.

How many times are you going to repeat the word "apasiddhanta" without proof, as if saying it again and again will somehow make it true?[/quote] It can not make it true, or not true. Repetition is not a proof. It is simply that, no proof by sastric sabdha, no proof by logic, no proof even by tradition, as nobody can demonstrate post samadhi ritivk system anywhere in our tradition. [br]
[br]
Now can Srila Prabhupada do something that completely contradicts all the above? Of course he can. But he would have put in his books, he would have explained it personally and discussed it with disciples in details. He would have not left a single doubt in the minds of the disciples and would write specific personal letters to his disciples who are to do that service.[br][br]

Now the explanation of kula-pavana of 'institutionaly bound' "officiating acharyas" is an acceptable explanation. It is along the lines of what Prabhupada always wanted, not acharyas with his or her own maths.

VEDA: Great. But don't call yourself his diksa disciple.

Sounds like Srila Prabhupada's diksa disciples are Jati Gosains. All others are inferior, only they are superiors because they lived in those days when Srila Prabhupada was preaching.

VEDA

suparna: Who talks about superiority/inferiority of diksa/siksa? This is completely besides the point.

Pandu das

Some devotees here are presenting arguments that would reject the July 9 letter entirely, even during Srila Prabhupada's manifest pastimes. Can anyone show sastric support for a guru initiating disciples whom he never met, would never meet, while they were on different continents?

I've read that sastra prohibits sannyasis from travelling on vehicles, but that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada overruled that for the sake of spreading Krishna consciousness. Why is that allowed but Srila Prabhupada's May 28/July 9 order to conduct tirobhava initiations aided by rtviks not allowed?

It's also stated in CC (Adi Lila, final chapter) that Lord Caitanya said sastra prohibits sannyasa in Kali Yuga; and Srila Prabhupada even ordered in 1977 that there were to be no more sannyasis. It certainly seems that sastric injunctions can be suspended or overruled based on higher principles. Now, though, sannyasa is being granted contrary to both sastra and Srila Prabhupada's order. Oh well.

Obviously it would be nice if I could hold a conversation with Srila Prabhupada face to face, but I don't see how my situation is any less than a devotee who got initiated by him via rtvik in September 1977 and who never met Srila Prabhupada or even saw him in person. Now even I have the benefit of more than a thousand hours of his audio recordings, the Vedabase, etc.

Since Srila Prabhupada already had the rtvik system in place (again, where's the sastric support for it functioning then?) where is the sastric proof for terminating it without his authorization and contrary to his "Officiating Acarya... Rtvik. Yes." respnse on May 28? What is the practical disadvantage between someone being initiated by him now compared to being initiated in September 1977?

ccd

>Srila Prabhupada even ordered in 1977 that there were to be no more sannyasis...

Can you produce an order letter to devotees or GBC or to any aspiring sannyasi to this effect? (everything else we heard before and it is not what he said, it it how you (30 years on) try to interpret it based of TKGs use of words)

In Bengali there is a saying''If you can waik on your hands,do it,but whatever you do change''.Srila Prabhupada told this to illustrate his dislike for whimsical changes.He was especially anxious after his departure his followers might take a free hand with his booksor with diety worship and make unnecessary ,unauthorised changes.....i personally find this is the situation with ''posthumous ritvik ''.....since a 15 year devotee like bhakta paul Howard .....previously pandu das...is unable to quote one sloka from the bhakti sastra's......speculation only.....what do other devotees think please...

The July 9 letter is to allow for a natural transition period to occur....because it is not the proper etiquette to initiate in front of your own guru....Then for the guru's and other godbrothers to initiate unlimitedly after his disappearance.....according to the Iskcon gbc and accepted vaisnava culture...simple ...Such things are axiomatic if you have been trained up in bhakta classes.....then classes every day in the Brahmacari ashram...Nectar of devotion classes most nights from senior Prabhupada disciples...Self-evident.

Kula-pavana

Pandu das:
What is the practical disadvantage between someone being initiated by him now compared to being initiated in September 1977?

The disadvantage is that you can't walk up to him and ask: "Srila Prabhupada... what did you mean when you said 'officiating acharya'?" and hear HIS explanation that removes all your doubts.

Pandu das

sri_govinda_das:
In Bengali there is a saying''If you can waik on your hands,do it,but whatever you do change''.Srila Prabhupada told this to illustrate his dislike for whimsical changes.He was especially anxious after his departure his followers might take a free hand with his booksor with diety worship and make unnecessary ,unauthorised changes.....i personally find this is the situation with ''posthumous ritvik ''.....since a 15 year devotee like bhakta paul Howard .....previously pandu das...is unable to quote one sloka from the bhakti sastra's......speculation only.....what do other devotees think please...

"Unnecessary and unauthorized changes." Funny how stopping the rtvik-assisted initiation system immediately comes to mind. You talk about "unable to quote one sloka" but your hypocrisy is astonishing as you have yet to quote one sloka showing that it was necessary to stop the rtvik-assisted system that Srila Prabhupada ordered and did not authorize changing.

ccd

Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.

Pandu das

Kula-pavana:
[quote]
Pandu das:
What is the practical disadvantage between someone being initiated by him now compared to being initiated in September 1977?

The disadvantage is that you can't walk up to him and ask: "Srila Prabhupada... what did you mean when you said 'officiating acharya'?" and hear HIS explanation that removes all your doubts.[/quote]

There's a conversation on Oct. 18, 1977, about a man who wanted to be initiated by Srila Prabhupada, and Srila Prabhupada reponded by saying he already deputed men handle all that. That aspiring disciple could not see Srila Prabhupada either.

Pandu das

ccd:
Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.

You're calling me a liar?

dweller-in-peace

ccd: Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.

You can have a very intimate and personal relationship with Prabhupada over the years and be even more connected to him then when you had a direct contact. In a way service in separation is more direct then service in direct interaction. It is this longing that makes one a direct disciple, not initiation, that is a formality. Visvanatha Cakravarti is a direct disciple of Narottama das Thakura Mahasaya, but there are a few generations of gurus (diksa) between them.

So will you call Visvanatha Cakravarti a liar?

''Out of context''...dweller in peace...Bhakta .Paul howard.....aka ''pandu das'' is not Visvanath Chakravati takura....Did he,Visvanatha Chakravati reject his guru...No...Is he a follower of ''posthumous ritvik''...no.....presently bhakta paul is not even initiated and is unable to see vedic knowledge within the natural context of the ''mercy of guru''....He refuses to quote any sastra to back up his flimsy stance.....

Kula-pavana

Pandu das:
[quote]
Kula-pavana:
[quote]
Pandu das:
What is the practical disadvantage between someone being initiated by him now compared to being initiated in September 1977?

The disadvantage is that you can't walk up to him and ask: "Srila Prabhupada... what did you mean when you said 'officiating acharya'?" and hear HIS explanation that removes all your doubts.[/quote]

There's a conversation on Oct. 18, 1977, about a man who wanted to be initiated by Srila Prabhupada, and Srila Prabhupada reponded by saying he already deputed men handle all that. That aspiring disciple could not see Srila Prabhupada either.[/quote]

It may come to you as a shock, but the guru HAS A RESPONSIBILITY for training his disciples. Shastra says that no one should become a guru unless they can properly train their disciples. Writing a book is not training a disciple. It helps, but it is not enough. If it was enough we would have all been disciples of Srila Vyasadeva.

ccd

dweller-in-peace:
ccd: Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.

You can have a very intimate and personal relationship with Prabhupada over the years and be even more connected to him then when you had a direct contact. In a way service in separation is more direct then service in direct interaction. It is this longing that makes one a direct disciple, not initiation, that is a formality. Visvanatha Cakravarti is a direct disciple of Narottama das Thakura Mahasaya, but there are a few generations of gurus (diksa) between them.

So will you call Visvanatha Cakravarti a liar?

You will lie if you claim that he received his mantra diksa from Narottama das Thakura, he was initiated by Radha ramana Cakravarti (an he wrote poetry dedicated to him as well, and all his dedications contain all the names of his gurus that were part of his line). Now to say that his principal guru and parampara acharya is Narottama Thakura is perfectly fine. And yes Pandu did not even get a diksa mantra from his guru.

ccd

Pandu das:
[quote]
ccd:
Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.

You're calling me a liar?[/quote] You lied to the person who initiated you that he is your guru, it was your responsibility to see if he is or not. Now you present your interpretation as the words of Prabhupada and you claim that Prabhupada ordered that nobody takes ever sannyasa (you do not have anything in writing from him to this effect). All of it is not satyam.

Jaya dweller-in-peace! U win first prize!

GAURANGA!

Pandu das

ccd:
[quote]
Pandu das:
[quote]
ccd:
Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.

You're calling me a liar?[/quote] You lied to the person who initiated you that he is your guru, it was your responsibility to see if he is or not. Now you present your interpretation as the words of Prabhupada and you claim that Prabhupada ordered that nobody takes ever sannyasa (you do not have anything in writing from him to this effect). All of it is not satyam.[/quote]

As an immature devotee chanting 16 rounds and following the 4 regs, I sought initiation based on the advice of senior devotees. I tried to put my trust in ISKCON, and I was intimidated by their anti-rtvik propaganda. So I made a mistake, and now I'm trying to rectify it. [br][br]

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation -- January 7, 1977, Bombay
If you talk in the modern society they will laugh: "What nonsense this man is... 'By sex life one becomes conditioned.' " They cannot understand. Hare Krsna... (japa) This should be strictly outlawed, no more sannyasis. And those sannyasis who have fallen, you get them married, live like a... No more this showbottle, cheating. It is very ludicrous. Even there is a promise that "We shall not fall down again," that is also not believable. What is the use? Better go and speak philosophy in your grhastha dress, not this dress, but you have nice coat, pants, gentleman.

[br]

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation -- January 7, 1977, Bombay
Real protection is Krsna. This is temporary, but because we have got this material body we require some. In this way... And this kind of hypocrisy -- they have taken sannyasa and mixing with woman. This is not to be allowed. If you want woman you get yourself married, live respectfully. We have no objection. But this hypocrisy should be stopped. There have been so many fallen down. First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore. I have got very bad experience. And at least, we are not going to create new sannyasis. And those who have fallen down, let them marry, live like respectable gentlemen.

Pandu das

Kula-pavana:
[quote]
Pandu das:
[quote]
Kula-pavana:
[quote]
Pandu das:
What is the practical disadvantage between someone being initiated by him now compared to being initiated in September 1977?

The disadvantage is that you can't walk up to him and ask: "Srila Prabhupada... what did you mean when you said 'officiating acharya'?" and hear HIS explanation that removes all your doubts.[/quote]

There's a conversation on Oct. 18, 1977, about a man who wanted to be initiated by Srila Prabhupada, and Srila Prabhupada reponded by saying he already deputed men handle all that. That aspiring disciple could not see Srila Prabhupada either.[/quote]

It may come to you as a shock, but the guru HAS A RESPONSIBILITY for training his disciples. Shastra says that no one should become a guru unless they can properly train their disciples. Writing a book is not training a disciple. It helps, but it is not enough. If it was enough we would have all been disciples of Srila Vyasadeva.[/quote]

Srila Prabhupada created a worldwide society with temples in most major cities where devotees could get training. I've heard he initiated over 5000 disciples (anyone have a reasonably accurate number?). I presume he personally trained less than 5% of them, with the rest trained through the temples. Even now, many, if not most, ISKCON gurus do the same thing. I would think that Srila Prabhupada's creating ISKCON, along with so many books, etc., fulfilled his responsibility for training disciples, so that he could accept disciples as he thought best.

ccd

Pandu das:
[quote]
ccd:
[quote]
Pandu das:
[quote]
ccd:
Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.

You're calling me a liar?[/quote] You lied to the person who initiated you that he is your guru, it was your responsibility to see if he is or not. Now you present your interpretation as the words of Prabhupada and you claim that Prabhupada ordered that nobody takes ever sannyasa (you do not have anything in writing from him to this effect). All of it is not satyam.[/quote]

As an immature devotee chanting 16 rounds and following the 4 regs, I sought initiation based on the advice of senior devotees. I tried to put my trust in ISKCON, and I was intimidated by their anti-rtvik propaganda. So I made a mistake, and now I'm trying to rectify it. [br][br] First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore.
[/quote][/quote]
I am aware of his words, but he never made them into an order, never wrote it to anyone and never asked it to be implemented. Another example of a lie, to think that any of his words is an automatic order. He had ample opportunity at the GBC meetings to make it part of the resolutions there and then when they were read to him. It is your interpretation to take it as an order for all the time to come. In the same way as it is your imagination that it is an order of Prabhupada that he should give initiations for the next 10000 years.

Pandu das

sri_govinda_das:
''Out of context''...dweller in peace...Bhakta .Paul howard.....aka ''pandu das'' is not Visvanath Chakravati takura....Did he,Visvanatha Chakravati reject his guru...No...Is he a follower of ''posthumous ritvik''...no.....presently bhakta paul is not even initiated and is unable to see vedic knowledge within the natural context of the ''mercy of guru''....He refuses to quote any sastra to back up his flimsy stance.....

One hand you say I rejected my guru, and on the other hand you say I'm not initiated. You don't seem to mind contradicting yourself, as long as it's to put me down.[br][br]
My own view is that I realized that my so-called guru was not authorized, making my initiation merely a show. Like if I sell you the Brooklyn Bridge, but you then discover I didn't own it in the first place, your nonpayment would not break any real contract.

Pandu das

[quote]
ccd:
[quote]
Pandu das:
[quote]
ccd:
[quote]
Pandu das:
[quote]
ccd:
Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.

You're calling me a liar?[/quote] You lied to the person who initiated you that he is your guru, it was your responsibility to see if he is or not. Now you present your interpretation as the words of Prabhupada and you claim that Prabhupada ordered that nobody takes ever sannyasa (you do not have anything in writing from him to this effect). All of it is not satyam.[/quote]

As an immature devotee chanting 16 rounds and following the 4 regs, I sought initiation based on the advice of senior devotees. I tried to put my trust in ISKCON, and I was intimidated by their anti-rtvik propaganda. So I made a mistake, and now I'm trying to rectify it. [br][br] First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore.
[/quote][/quote]
I am aware of his words, but he never made them into an order, never wrote it to anyone and never asked it to be implemented. Another example of a lie, to think that any of his words is an automatic order. He had ample opportunity at the GBC meetings to make it part of the resolutions there and then when they were read to him. It is your interpretation to take it as an order for all the time to come. In the same way as it is your imagination that it is an order of Prabhupada that he should give initiations for the next 10000 years.[/quote]

Oh, that's a new one to me, that Srila Prabhupada's recorded words should not be taken seriously unless he declares them as an official order. I guess next time I should look for something to the effect of "I, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acarya of ISKCON, do hereby declare the following order:" Why do we even have a "Conversations" section of the Vedabase, if it's all meaningless and can be discarded at will? Is the "Lectures" section similarly disposable?

ccd

Pandu das:
[quote][quote]
ccd:
[quote]
Pandu das:
[quote]
ccd:
[quote]
Pandu das:
[quote]
ccd:
Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.

You're calling me a liar?[/quote] You lied to the person who initiated you that he is your guru, it was your responsibility to see if he is or not. Now you present your interpretation as the words of Prabhupada and you claim that Prabhupada ordered that nobody takes ever sannyasa (you do not have anything in writing from him to this effect). All of it is not satyam.[/quote]

As an immature devotee chanting 16 rounds and following the 4 regs, I sought initiation based on the advice of senior devotees. I tried to put my trust in ISKCON, and I was intimidated by their anti-rtvik propaganda. So I made a mistake, and now I'm trying to rectify it. [br][br] First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore.
[/quote][/quote]
I am aware of his words, but he never made them into an order, never wrote it to anyone and never asked it to be implemented. Another example of a lie, to think that any of his words is an automatic order. He had ample opportunity at the GBC meetings to make it part of the resolutions there and then when they were read to him. It is your interpretation to take it as an order for all the time to come. In the same way as it is your imagination that it is an order of Prabhupada that he should give initiations for the next 10000 years.[/quote]

Oh, that's a new one to me, that Srila Prabhupada's recorded words should not be taken seriously unless he declares them as an official order. I guess next time I should look for something to the effect of "I, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acarya of ISKCON, do hereby declare the following order:" Why do we even have a "Conversations" section of the Vedabase, if it's all meaningless and can be discarded at will? Is the "Lectures" section similarly disposable?[/quote]
Prabhupada was very clear when he gave an order. He did not give an order to stop all and every sannyas initiation in the future. You have to have a better source to it then the quotes from conversations taken out of context. This is very very serious deviation from what his spiritual master built. If you take this as his 'order', I am not surprised that you take the 'final order' seriously.

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