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suparna:>Suhotra Swami mentions one case in kartabhaja apasampradaya: http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/library/Apasamp.zip Easy to criticize ritviks but hard to follow sanyasa. There are many ritviks who are serious devotees so could it be because of this criticism. One need to be careful.Why do you need to be sannyasi anyway? What a bogus idea that to be an advanced devotee one needs to be a sannyasi.
deena:Yes. In Iskcon, Srila Prabhupada used the rtvik system to conduct initiations. After he left his body the rtvik initiation system was discontinued.Actually he used it for years from 1971 or even before without calling it 'ritivik'. While Bon Maharaj was giving initiations when Sarasvati Thakura was on the planet as well.
sri_govinda_das:So kula-pavanna prabhu which senior sannyasis took this opportunity to initiate direct disciples of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu..The system of initiations Srila Prabhupada used for several years prior to his departure was a PROXY initiation, where one person is authorized to act in the name of another. The word 'ritvik' was never used in the Vedic literatures or Vaishnava writings to denote proxy initiations. And the idea of proxy initiations carried forward after the departure of the authorizing guru is not at all based on scriptures or tradition. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu did not initiate any disciples and He certainly did not make Himself a diksa guru for the next 10,000 years.
sri_govinda_das:I am trying to find where it is sanctioned to just use the guru like a ''door mat''...without his personal consent like what the ritviks propound....can you give us any examples please?Srila Prabhupada deputed rtviks to give consent on his behalf in the July 9 letter.
July 9, 1977 letter:In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee's initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.
sri_govinda_das:So Pandu das .....This is the only example from the history of Gaudiya Vaisnavaism which you can find of a supposed ''ritvik'' branch being started....?Please tell us there is more examples......!Srila Prabhupada's written order is not good enough for you?
One letter taken completely out of Vaisnava context! My guru wrote it and typed it under his guru's instructions .....and you know better than him!As I told you, TKG confessed to cheating to become a zonal acarya, and then in that position he grossly abused his power. I don't trust him.
Please show us more sastric evidence please....one letter is that all you and your team haveThat letter was an order sent to all the ISKCON leaders, and was a follow-up to a direct question for how Srila Prabhupada wanted initiations to be conducted after his disappearance. He then sent three more letters to rtviks telling them to do the rtvik thing, and there's another statement in the Vedabase wherein he tells TKG to continue to become rtvik. There is also evidence in Srila Prabhupada's will, etc. Really, it's a waste of time going over this with you again. Srila Prabhupada had a system established that would allow for him to give initiations assisted by rtviks after his disappearance, and it was terminated without his authorization. The GBC has been trying to figure out how to make something work ever since, and they still haven't got it.
,and for this many ritviks want to destroy the chain of Disciplic successionBut you don't think having bogus sannyasis hanging out in shorts (or less) with ladies, no tilak or brahman thread, no sikha, no danda, etc., preaching that Srila Prabhupada has been proven wrong by modern social science, etc... (and that's just one guy out of many who have made ISKCON look ridiculous), that's not destroying the disciplic succession.
......You honestly must have more Prabhu.....Even a sloka out of ''bhagavad gita''?Can anyone please show us a sloka out of ''bhagavad gita'' where the guru is allowed to change the authorised process of disciplic succession....to '' and no more guru's ..........''ritvik'' long distance and your guru never meets you.....and you never get chastised or loved ....shown the error of your ways.Because he personally never even knows you!And you never even know him!How do you know what the Founder-Acarya is able to do or not to do for the sake of keeping Vaisnava siddhanta intact? From your independent study? Why must you reject Srila Prabhupada's order and look elsewhere to speculate on what he wanted? Obviously Srila Prabhupada did not consider it essential to meet every one of his disciples, either before initiation or after, because he initiated many disciples whom he never met, exchanged letters, saw, or spoke with. Who are you to impose additional requirements, as if Srila Prabhupada cannot relate to devotees he has not physically met?
VEDA:suparna: It's no criticism of ritviks. It simply shows this idea is avaidika. No logical connection with sannyasa here. How can be a person a serious devotee, if he doesn't seriously study siddhanta? Serious sadhana is not all in all, rather it's easily undercut by aparadha and following of apasiddhanta.How many times are you going to repeat the word "apasiddhanta" without proof, as if saying it again and again will somehow make it true?
Pandu das:It can not make it true, or not true. Repetition is not a proof. It is simply that, no proof by sastric sabdha, no proof by logic, no proof even by tradition, as nobody can demonstrate post samadhi ritivk system anywhere in our tradition.VEDA:suparna: It's no criticism of ritviks. It simply shows this idea is avaidika. No logical connection with sannyasa here. How can be a person a serious devotee, if he doesn't seriously study siddhanta? Serious sadhana is not all in all, rather it's easily undercut by aparadha and following of apasiddhanta.How many times are you going to repeat the word "apasiddhanta" without proof, as if saying it again and again will somehow make it true?
Pandu das:What is the practical disadvantage between someone being initiated by him now compared to being initiated in September 1977?The disadvantage is that you can't walk up to him and ask: "Srila Prabhupada... what did you mean when you said 'officiating acharya'?" and hear HIS explanation that removes all your doubts.
sri_govinda_das:In Bengali there is a saying''If you can waik on your hands,do it,but whatever you do change''.Srila Prabhupada told this to illustrate his dislike for whimsical changes.He was especially anxious after his departure his followers might take a free hand with his booksor with diety worship and make unnecessary ,unauthorised changes.....i personally find this is the situation with ''posthumous ritvik ''.....since a 15 year devotee like bhakta paul Howard .....previously pandu das...is unable to quote one sloka from the bhakti sastra's......speculation only.....what do other devotees think please..."Unnecessary and unauthorized changes." Funny how stopping the rtvik-assisted initiation system immediately comes to mind. You talk about "unable to quote one sloka" but your hypocrisy is astonishing as you have yet to quote one sloka showing that it was necessary to stop the rtvik-assisted system that Srila Prabhupada ordered and did not authorize changing.
Kula-pavana:There's a conversation on Oct. 18, 1977, about a man who wanted to be initiated by Srila Prabhupada, and Srila Prabhupada reponded by saying he already deputed men handle all that. That aspiring disciple could not see Srila Prabhupada either.Pandu das:What is the practical disadvantage between someone being initiated by him now compared to being initiated in September 1977?The disadvantage is that you can't walk up to him and ask: "Srila Prabhupada... what did you mean when you said 'officiating acharya'?" and hear HIS explanation that removes all your doubts.
ccd:Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.You're calling me a liar?
Pandu das:It may come to you as a shock, but the guru HAS A RESPONSIBILITY for training his disciples. Shastra says that no one should become a guru unless they can properly train their disciples. Writing a book is not training a disciple. It helps, but it is not enough. If it was enough we would have all been disciples of Srila Vyasadeva.Kula-pavana:There's a conversation on Oct. 18, 1977, about a man who wanted to be initiated by Srila Prabhupada, and Srila Prabhupada reponded by saying he already deputed men handle all that. That aspiring disciple could not see Srila Prabhupada either.Pandu das:What is the practical disadvantage between someone being initiated by him now compared to being initiated in September 1977?The disadvantage is that you can't walk up to him and ask: "Srila Prabhupada... what did you mean when you said 'officiating acharya'?" and hear HIS explanation that removes all your doubts.
dweller-in-peace:ccd: Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation. You can have a very intimate and personal relationship with Prabhupada over the years and be even more connected to him then when you had a direct contact. In a way service in separation is more direct then service in direct interaction. It is this longing that makes one a direct disciple, not initiation, that is a formality. Visvanatha Cakravarti is a direct disciple of Narottama das Thakura Mahasaya, but there are a few generations of gurus (diksa) between them. So will you call Visvanatha Cakravarti a liar?You will lie if you claim that he received his mantra diksa from Narottama das Thakura, he was initiated by Radha ramana Cakravarti (an he wrote poetry dedicated to him as well, and all his dedications contain all the names of his gurus that were part of his line). Now to say that his principal guru and parampara acharya is Narottama Thakura is perfectly fine. And yes Pandu did not even get a diksa mantra from his guru.
Pandu das:You lied to the person who initiated you that he is your guru, it was your responsibility to see if he is or not. Now you present your interpretation as the words of Prabhupada and you claim that Prabhupada ordered that nobody takes ever sannyasa (you do not have anything in writing from him to this effect). All of it is not satyam.ccd:Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.You're calling me a liar?
ccd:As an immature devotee chanting 16 rounds and following the 4 regs, I sought initiation based on the advice of senior devotees. I tried to put my trust in ISKCON, and I was intimidated by their anti-rtvik propaganda. So I made a mistake, and now I'm trying to rectify it.Pandu das:You lied to the person who initiated you that he is your guru, it was your responsibility to see if he is or not. Now you present your interpretation as the words of Prabhupada and you claim that Prabhupada ordered that nobody takes ever sannyasa (you do not have anything in writing from him to this effect). All of it is not satyam.ccd:Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.You're calling me a liar?
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation -- January 7, 1977, BombayIf you talk in the modern society they will laugh: "What nonsense this man is... 'By sex life one becomes conditioned.' " They cannot understand. Hare Krsna... (japa) This should be strictly outlawed, no more sannyasis. And those sannyasis who have fallen, you get them married, live like a... No more this showbottle, cheating. It is very ludicrous. Even there is a promise that "We shall not fall down again," that is also not believable. What is the use? Better go and speak philosophy in your grhastha dress, not this dress, but you have nice coat, pants, gentleman.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation -- January 7, 1977, BombayReal protection is Krsna. This is temporary, but because we have got this material body we require some. In this way... And this kind of hypocrisy -- they have taken sannyasa and mixing with woman. This is not to be allowed. If you want woman you get yourself married, live respectfully. We have no objection. But this hypocrisy should be stopped. There have been so many fallen down. First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore. I have got very bad experience. And at least, we are not going to create new sannyasis. And those who have fallen down, let them marry, live like respectable gentlemen.
Kula-pavana:Srila Prabhupada created a worldwide society with temples in most major cities where devotees could get training. I've heard he initiated over 5000 disciples (anyone have a reasonably accurate number?). I presume he personally trained less than 5% of them, with the rest trained through the temples. Even now, many, if not most, ISKCON gurus do the same thing. I would think that Srila Prabhupada's creating ISKCON, along with so many books, etc., fulfilled his responsibility for training disciples, so that he could accept disciples as he thought best.Pandu das:It may come to you as a shock, but the guru HAS A RESPONSIBILITY for training his disciples. Shastra says that no one should become a guru unless they can properly train their disciples. Writing a book is not training a disciple. It helps, but it is not enough. If it was enough we would have all been disciples of Srila Vyasadeva.Kula-pavana:There's a conversation on Oct. 18, 1977, about a man who wanted to be initiated by Srila Prabhupada, and Srila Prabhupada reponded by saying he already deputed men handle all that. That aspiring disciple could not see Srila Prabhupada either.Pandu das:What is the practical disadvantage between someone being initiated by him now compared to being initiated in September 1977?The disadvantage is that you can't walk up to him and ask: "Srila Prabhupada... what did you mean when you said 'officiating acharya'?" and hear HIS explanation that removes all your doubts.
Pandu das:[/quote] I am aware of his words, but he never made them into an order, never wrote it to anyone and never asked it to be implemented. Another example of a lie, to think that any of his words is an automatic order. He had ample opportunity at the GBC meetings to make it part of the resolutions there and then when they were read to him. It is your interpretation to take it as an order for all the time to come. In the same way as it is your imagination that it is an order of Prabhupada that he should give initiations for the next 10000 years.ccd:As an immature devotee chanting 16 rounds and following the 4 regs, I sought initiation based on the advice of senior devotees. I tried to put my trust in ISKCON, and I was intimidated by their anti-rtvik propaganda. So I made a mistake, and now I'm trying to rectify it.Pandu das:You lied to the person who initiated you that he is your guru, it was your responsibility to see if he is or not. Now you present your interpretation as the words of Prabhupada and you claim that Prabhupada ordered that nobody takes ever sannyasa (you do not have anything in writing from him to this effect). All of it is not satyam.ccd:Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.You're calling me a liar?
First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore.
sri_govinda_das:''Out of context''...dweller in peace...Bhakta .Paul howard.....aka ''pandu das'' is not Visvanath Chakravati takura....Did he,Visvanatha Chakravati reject his guru...No...Is he a follower of ''posthumous ritvik''...no.....presently bhakta paul is not even initiated and is unable to see vedic knowledge within the natural context of the ''mercy of guru''....He refuses to quote any sastra to back up his flimsy stance.....One hand you say I rejected my guru, and on the other hand you say I'm not initiated. You don't seem to mind contradicting yourself, as long as it's to put me down.
Oh, that's a new one to me, that Srila Prabhupada's recorded words should not be taken seriously unless he declares them as an official order. I guess next time I should look for something to the effect of "I, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acarya of ISKCON, do hereby declare the following order:" Why do we even have a "Conversations" section of the Vedabase, if it's all meaningless and can be discarded at will? Is the "Lectures" section similarly disposable?ccd:I am aware of his words, but he never made them into an order, never wrote it to anyone and never asked it to be implemented. Another example of a lie, to think that any of his words is an automatic order. He had ample opportunity at the GBC meetings to make it part of the resolutions there and then when they were read to him. It is your interpretation to take it as an order for all the time to come. In the same way as it is your imagination that it is an order of Prabhupada that he should give initiations for the next 10000 years.Pandu das:ccd:As an immature devotee chanting 16 rounds and following the 4 regs, I sought initiation based on the advice of senior devotees. I tried to put my trust in ISKCON, and I was intimidated by their anti-rtvik propaganda. So I made a mistake, and now I'm trying to rectify it.Pandu das:You lied to the person who initiated you that he is your guru, it was your responsibility to see if he is or not. Now you present your interpretation as the words of Prabhupada and you claim that Prabhupada ordered that nobody takes ever sannyasa (you do not have anything in writing from him to this effect). All of it is not satyam.ccd:Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.You're calling me a liar?
First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore.
Pandu das:Prabhupada was very clear when he gave an order. He did not give an order to stop all and every sannyas initiation in the future. You have to have a better source to it then the quotes from conversations taken out of context. This is very very serious deviation from what his spiritual master built. If you take this as his 'order', I am not surprised that you take the 'final order' seriously.Oh, that's a new one to me, that Srila Prabhupada's recorded words should not be taken seriously unless he declares them as an official order. I guess next time I should look for something to the effect of "I, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acarya of ISKCON, do hereby declare the following order:" Why do we even have a "Conversations" section of the Vedabase, if it's all meaningless and can be discarded at will? Is the "Lectures" section similarly disposable?ccd:I am aware of his words, but he never made them into an order, never wrote it to anyone and never asked it to be implemented. Another example of a lie, to think that any of his words is an automatic order. He had ample opportunity at the GBC meetings to make it part of the resolutions there and then when they were read to him. It is your interpretation to take it as an order for all the time to come. In the same way as it is your imagination that it is an order of Prabhupada that he should give initiations for the next 10000 years.Pandu das:ccd:As an immature devotee chanting 16 rounds and following the 4 regs, I sought initiation based on the advice of senior devotees. I tried to put my trust in ISKCON, and I was intimidated by their anti-rtvik propaganda. So I made a mistake, and now I'm trying to rectify it.Pandu das:You lied to the person who initiated you that he is your guru, it was your responsibility to see if he is or not. Now you present your interpretation as the words of Prabhupada and you claim that Prabhupada ordered that nobody takes ever sannyasa (you do not have anything in writing from him to this effect). All of it is not satyam.ccd:Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.You're calling me a liar?
First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore.
ccd:Whatever. If you're going to call me a liar, you need a much better claim than that b.s.Pandu das:Prabhupada was very clear when he gave an order. He did not give an order to stop all and every sannyas initiation in the future. You have to have a better source to it then the quotes from conversations taken out of context. This is very very serious deviation from what his spiritual master built. If you take this as his 'order', I am not surprised that you take the 'final order' seriously.Oh, that's a new one to me, that Srila Prabhupada's recorded words should not be taken seriously unless he declares them as an official order. I guess next time I should look for something to the effect of "I, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acarya of ISKCON, do hereby declare the following order:" Why do we even have a "Conversations" section of the Vedabase, if it's all meaningless and can be discarded at will? Is the "Lectures" section similarly disposable?ccd:I am aware of his words, but he never made them into an order, never wrote it to anyone and never asked it to be implemented. Another example of a lie, to think that any of his words is an automatic order. He had ample opportunity at the GBC meetings to make it part of the resolutions there and then when they were read to him. It is your interpretation to take it as an order for all the time to come. In the same way as it is your imagination that it is an order of Prabhupada that he should give initiations for the next 10000 years.Pandu das:ccd:As an immature devotee chanting 16 rounds and following the 4 regs, I sought initiation based on the advice of senior devotees. I tried to put my trust in ISKCON, and I was intimidated by their anti-rtvik propaganda. So I made a mistake, and now I'm trying to rectify it.Pandu das:You lied to the person who initiated you that he is your guru, it was your responsibility to see if he is or not. Now you present your interpretation as the words of Prabhupada and you claim that Prabhupada ordered that nobody takes ever sannyasa (you do not have anything in writing from him to this effect). All of it is not satyam.ccd:Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.You're calling me a liar?
First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore.
Pandu das: Srila Prabhupada created a worldwide society with temples in most major cities where devotees could get training. I've heard he initiated over 5000 disciples (anyone have a reasonably accurate number?). I presume he personally trained less than 5% of them, with the rest trained through the temples. Even now, many, if not most, ISKCON gurus do the same thing. I would think that Srila Prabhupada's creating ISKCON, along with so many books, etc., fulfilled his responsibility for training disciples, so that he could accept disciples as he thought best.Yes, Srila Prabhupada has created a training INSTITUTION, a school for spiritual training. That does not mean however, that all who attend that institution can claim that they are his direct disciples. They are followers of Srila Prabhupada but not his direct disciples. When you study at Max Planck Institute today you can't claim that your teacher is Max Planck - that would be considered a lie.
Kula-pavana:Again there is a difference -- to claim you were directly trained by Max Planck is a lie, but there is nothing wrong in considering him your 'teacher'. Prabhupada is not a mundane teacher, and yes he can guide his disciples (be they siksa disciples or diksa disciples). The difficulty is that first you announce that those who were directly lectured by Mac Planck are somehow better (by default) then those who did not get that chance (also a lie) and then everyone wants to put it on their resume (lie coming from the lie). I do not blame Pandu, I blame emphasis on direct diksa and associated institutional respect. It will go away in soime 20 years but now it is a bit of a problem, we would rather lie to achieve the impossible, whereas it is not necessary to be perfect disciples (siksa) of Prabhupada.Pandu das: Srila Prabhupada created a worldwide society with temples in most major cities where devotees could get training. I've heard he initiated over 5000 disciples (anyone have a reasonably accurate number?). I presume he personally trained less than 5% of them, with the rest trained through the temples. Even now, many, if not most, ISKCON gurus do the same thing. I would think that Srila Prabhupada's creating ISKCON, along with so many books, etc., fulfilled his responsibility for training disciples, so that he could accept disciples as he thought best.Yes, Srila Prabhupada has created a training INSTITUTION, a school for spiritual training. That does not mean however, that all who attend that institution can claim that they are his direct disciples. They are followers of Srila Prabhupada but not his direct disciples. When you study at Max Planck Institute today you can't claim that your teacher is Max Planck - that would be considered a lie.
ccd:The difficulty is that first you announce that those who were directly lectured by Mac Planck are somehow better (by default) then those who did not get that chance (also a lie) and then everyone wants to put it on their resume (lie coming from the lie).And where did I say that? --------- What I have always said is that personal, direct training by the guru can not be replaced by reading a book. ----------- Some people directly trained by Srila Prabhupada over a long period of time turned out to be rotten scoundrels, others who only had a short personal association of their guru turned into wonderful Vaishnavas. That however does not indicate that personal association of the guru is irrelevant. The extreme cases do not negate the rule. The most important part is the suitability of the disciple. If the disciple is receptive, personal training of his guru is extremely valuable.
Kula-pavana:You see there is such a thing as personal association by reading a book. But there is no such a thing as transmission of mantra by reading the book. Reading the book and getting personal association is more important. It is the first qualification, in my book, of an ISKCON guru that he should teach his disciples on how to realate to Prabhupada personally even if he is not present on this planet. For all these you need a guru who trains you principal siksa guru-acharya, initiating guru officiating acharya and your local siksa guru - only a few had it all in one person.ccd:The difficulty is that first you announce that those who were directly lectured by Mac Planck are somehow better (by default) then those who did not get that chance (also a lie) and then everyone wants to put it on their resume (lie coming from the lie).And where did I say that? --------- What I have always said is that personal, direct training by the guru can not be replaced by reading a book. ----------- Some people directly trained by Srila Prabhupada over a long period of time turned out to be rotten scoundrels, others who only had a short personal association of their guru turned into wonderful Vaishnavas. That however does not indicate that personal association of the guru is irrelevant. The extreme cases do not negate the rule. The most important part is the suitability of the disciple. If the disciple is receptive, personal training of his guru is extremely valuable.
ccd: You see there is such a thing as personal association by reading a book.Suuuuuure... you can even ask the author specific questions and get answers directly from him.... This is what all the loonies who have 'perfect answers' in our movement claim.... the only problem is... all of these answers are different... FBI - faith based illusion.
Kula-pavana:Not loonies and not different, just regular devotees and personal answers. Ideally they all will raise to the standard of Gaura-kisora Babaji Maharaja and carry Prema Bhakti Candrika with us and get Narottama's personal association (yes personal association is by definition is different for every person). It is not an uncommon practice in all religions, including Gaudia Vaisnavism. Bhajana rahasya was written as a result of this process. But of course your level will impact on results;-)ccd: You see there is such a thing as personal association by reading a book.Suuuuuure... you can even ask the author specific questions and get answers directly from him.... This is what all the loonies who have 'perfect answers' in our movement claim.... the only problem is... all of these answers are different...
ccd:In other words you agree that if you take initiatioin and then for two years do not chant your japa it is a lie, whether you did it in front of a priest or a priest who is your guru. As is a lie to say that it is an explicit order of Prabhupada to change the obvious clear tradition. To say that the post samadhi ritivik system is normal, traditional and obvious is a lie.I'm looking forward to forgetting this sanga, but since I'm still thinking about it, I figured maybe take a look.
sri_govinda_das:Your last gaura-govinda maharaja quotes leave me personally ,,,,neutralThese are not quotes from Srila Goura Govinda Swami. These are questions that someone tried to answer by selective and edited quoting. Do not be deceived to think that he was asked these questions and answered them in this way.