We have upgraded Pariprashnena! Login is done with email OR username + usual password now.
Any problem or doubt please email pariprashnena@gmail.com
What constitutes being a member of ISKCON?
-
Interesting presentation given by Sivarama Swami in a European leaders meeting in October:
"....He cited some of these obligations as accepting the GBC as one's ultimate spiritual and managerial authority (in terms of ISKCON issues); being connected to ISKCON's line of authority; accepting initiation from a member of ISKCON -- in other words, chanting sixteen rounds and following the four regulative principles; being subject to the disciplinary and judicial system of ISKCON; giving 10% of one's income to the Society, and not divorcing one's spouse.
"The laws and bylaws of ISKCON determine devotees' values and conduct in all aspects of their lives-work, social status, and spiritual practice and aspiration," Sivarama Swami said in his strongly-worded presentation.
Those who followed such obligations, he said, would have the right to be officially accepted as being connected to Srila Prabhupada in our disciplic succession; reside, serve or be employed at ISKCON temples and farms; engage in leadership positions; perform ceremonies and worship such as giving class, worshipping deities, and becoming a guru; avail of birth, marriage, initiation, or sannyasa rites offered by the Society; and be part of ISKCON initiatives such as schools and education, the Chamber of Commerce, and residence in Mayapur."
Taken from http://news.iskcon.com/node/2386/2009-11-15/iskcon_leaders_grapple_defining_who_member -
This part is interesting - "....being subject to the disciplinary and judicial system of ISKCON; giving 10% of one's income to the Society, and not divorcing one's spouse." - shame that most ISKCON members don't follow this but according to Maharaja will be obliged to do so otherwise they won't be "accepted as being connected to Srila Prabhupada in our disciplic succession"....quite a statement, I wonder what Srila Prabhupada would have to say about that.
-
>and not divorcing one's spouse.
I know several ISKCON leaders who are temple presidents and they have divorced their spouse several times, I am glad to know that all these people aren't ISKCON members any more. But how can they be presidents of ISKCON centers if they aren't even ISKCON member.
>giving 10% of one's income to the Society
>engage in leadership positions; perform ceremonies and worship such as giving class, worshipping deities, and becoming a guru;
Not a bad deal. By giving 10% of your income, you get the contract to send others back to godhead and of course all those 10% get reimbursed once you become a guru. -
Recently on the request of our National Council I've written a paper on the membership from the historical and current pov so I'm somehow acquainted with this issue.
> being subject to the disciplinary and judicial system of ISKCON
Stands to reason. Disciplinary and judicial system of ISKCON is yet to appear though.
> giving 10% of one's income to the Society
SP spoke about 50%. It's in the ISKCON Lawbook.
> not divorcing one's spouse.
Good. -
It is strange, kind of immature I would say. Clearly ISKCON is different in every country, so the membership rules will vary, according to the local law and jurisdiction.
Disciplinary and judicial system of ISKCON is yet to appear though.VEDA:
> giving 10% of one's income to the Society
SP spoke about 50%. It's in the ISKCON Lawbook. -
VEDA: "Recently on the request of our National Council I've written a paper on the membership from the historical and current pov so I'm somehow acquainted with this issue.
> being subject to the disciplinary and judicial system of ISKCON
Stands to reason. Disciplinary and judicial system of ISKCON is yet to appear though.
> giving 10% of one's income to the Society
SP spoke about 50%. It's in the ISKCON Lawbook.
> not divorcing one's spouse.
Good."
Agree with you VEDA....my concern is the other statement - devotees who don't fall into these categories (either 1 or all of them) will not be "accepted as being connected to Srila Prabhupada in our disciplic succession"....considering most devotees that I know who are considered ISKCON members (including those in management) don't actually follow all these prerequisites - so are these existing ISKCON members not connected to SP in our disciplic succession?
1. There are many devotees that render direct service to the Deities or contribute towards the preaching etc. - either full time or part time, but don't neccessarily give 10% of their income to the temple (for whatever reason i.e., because they can't afford it or have been burned out in the past by misuse of funds by management).
2. They may not be subject to all the aspects of the disciplinary and judicial system, considering most devotees live outside this framework and they just want to contribute in some way without all the heavy handed law enforcement - of course there has to be SOME law and order in relation to sexual predators and Deity/devotee etiquette etc.
3. They may have been divorced for some good reason (physical or psychological abuse can be a common reason), I know of one Temple President who has divorced more than 3 times.
Seems to me a rather heavy-handed approach that may put off devotees, new and old, from participating and feeling like they are being judged (even more than exists at the moment). -
> so are these existing ISKCON members not connected to SP in our disciplic succession?
Therefore various levels of membership are suggested.
1+2: The idea is to give as much as one can. There're churches with 10% (there's even a historical word http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tithe).
3. Sure, one can have such karma. But is that an ideal candidate for TP?
One can think like that but every serious church has well-defined membership. My opinion is that many problems could be prevented this way. -
> so are these existing ISKCON members not connected to SP in our disciplic succession?[br]VEDA:
Therefore various levels of membership are suggested.
I find it all ridiculous. I am sorry for being so frank. It is clearly one of those things that remains irrelevant for the rest of ISKCON's existence. [br] Besides that it is a self-destructive tendency to restrict a membership in the situations when there is evidence of membership dropping or other signs of stagnation. [br][br]But hey what can be said? -
You're entitled to your opinion.
> to restrict a membership in the situations when there is evidence of membership dropping or other signs of stagnation.
How do you restrict membership if it's not even properly defined in the first place? Actually, in the laws there's only a definition of a temple resident member but the fact that ISKCON has changed into a congregational society has to be taken in account.
Stagnation may be there in some places, not everywhere. SRS most probably refers primarily to Hungary where ISKCON fares pretty well. -
>>]You're entitled to your opinion.
> to restrict a membership in the situations when there is evidence of membership dropping or other signs of stagnation.
>>How do you restrict membership if it's not even properly defined in the first place?
That is the point, why would you make a definition anything more then what Prabhupada did? Did he at any point emphasized disunity and exclusion?
That what he said:
"Disunity between individual souls is so strong within this material world that even in a society of Kåñëa consciousness, members sometimes appear disunited due to their having different opinions and leaning toward material things. Actually, in Kåñëa consciousness there cannot be two opinions. There is only one goal: to serve Kåñëa to one's best ability. If there is some disagreement over service, such disagreement is to be taken as spiritual. Those who are actually engaged in the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead cannot be disunited in any circumstance."
Let us issue IskconID cards, and those who do not have them are not with us... (Would Prabhupada ever do such a thing?) -
As I said, times have changed. ISKCON is not anymore a monastic-only group. Wider membership needs to be defined. Also, ISKCON isn't the only GV group outside India as it used to be 30 years ago. Since other GV groups have allegiance to their founders and lineages and follow their standards, it's quite natural for ISKCON to do the same.
And if someone doesn't like one group, he can join another one. It's not about restricting or disuniting devotees at all, rather the opposite - everyone has more choices nowadays. Not that everyone must be 'with us', rather let him be with Sri Krsna and Sri Caitanya who came to unite all Vaisnava sampradayas. Good fences make good neighbors and then good cooperation will be possible. That's the idea of World Vaisnava Association. -
Besides the fact that it make a good number of Prabhupada's disciples who were divorced and approved in it by Prabhupada non-members.
Besides the point is that if it is created to support the idea of WVA -- I certainly would not want to participate in it. I believe that ISKCON must function as WVA, and it will eventually be.
It is not true that ISKCON was the only GV org. Devotees in London visited GM building there.
In india there were hundreds of different GV groups during HDG Srila Prabhupada's times. What did he do? Did he ever build the fences up? No, he went to Lalita Prasad and offered him to build a temple at the birth place of BVT.
When he expelled 4 sannyasis out of ISKCON, he made it clear that one can be outside of ISKCON and be his disciple, they eventually returned. Why invent this complicated institutional structure that is just the opposite to what SP wanted? I just feel it is not just irrational, it is also counterproductive spiritually. -
Why not but ISKCON must first emerge as a natural leader among all Vaisnava groups. If you look around the most dynamic churches are the best organized ones. Kripamoya P. made one PP presentation with examples from the history of Anglican Church. He contrasted Wesley's organized followers with another important preacher, whose followers weren't organized.
Yes, the London Sri Vasudev GM. I meant 'active' groups.
Srila Prabhupada was trying to get others to cooperate with ISKCON but he didn't get much positive experiences. So he made some arrangements to limit his disciples's association with his Godbrothers (see the book Siksa Outside ISKCON? by SRS). So if someone wants to be called his follower, he should be ready to follow his standards and this is formally expressed by membership entailing specific rights and obligations. I don't see anything complicated, etc. about it. It's natural. -
I guess the main complication is that Prabhupada did not do it or stressed it as important or even helpful... ISKCON is already a leader among other groups in the west and in india. Where Prabhupada states that we should do it?
-
>Those who followed such obligations, he said, would have the right to be officially accepted as being connected to Srila Prabhupada in our disciplic succession
It means taking initiation from spiritual master (following 4 reg. and 16 rounds) is not sufficient to connect a devotee to Srila Prabhupada and Guru Parampara. One needs to do other things as well like giving 10% of income to ISKCON, bowing down to line of authoriy etc. etc. so what is wrong if Narayana Maharaja takes pity on such fallen souls and reinitiates them and connects them to Guru parampara.
I will not be surprised if soon NM (out of compassion) makes a public announcement that all such devotees who have fallen out of parampara should contact him so that they can be reinitiated and connected back to parampara. -
>being subject to the disciplinary and judicial system of ISKCON
Say there is a GbC resolution that devotees can not eat chocolate (1991)
A GbC man (say) BB. Paramguru swami Maharaja is eating chocolate
That means that BB. Paramguru swami Maharaja is not following disciplinary system of ISKCON
Thus we have a non-ISKCON member on the GBC board (already).
Now I am not pointing fingers... but it was not me who raised this issue was it?
Who wants to contribute to the list of GBC members who is known to be eating chocolate (that is against the GBC resolution). -
> I guess the main complication is that Prabhupada did not do it or stressed it as important or even helpful...
As I said, 30 years back was quite a different situation. I wrote (original is in Czech):
The basic problem is that without a defined membership there's no responsibility of anyone toward anyone and one can't actually speak about a common mission. Without definitions of rights and duties of members there'll be problems. One is represented by people who want to only take advantages but don't want to contribute (Kripamoya dasa calls them 'half-chicken'). Another one represent those who unrightfully pretend to be members and damage the movement's reputation. Example: http://www.thaindian.com/forums/general-discussions/3092::regarding-the-fake-iskcon-temple.html
How to stop them if anyone can claim to be a member?
You can check the refs and other sources at the end of my paper, they're in English, just like parts of the paper itself: http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/library/clenstvi.zip
> ISKCON is already a leader among other groups in the west and in india.
It may be the biggest GV group but it still has enough internal problems to take its leadership role in spreading sankirtan movement coordinated with other groups. This is my view for the future. How far future is hard to say.
re chocolate: The GBC man will have to choose what he prefers. 8)
dweller:
I mentioned that as per the ISKCON Law one should give 50%, not just 10% which is actually a significant alleviation.
'Bowing down to line of authority' is done by every devotee every day by bowing to Srila Prabhupada and one's guru. It's also in the Law:
7.2.1.4 Vows of Disciple
All new initiates must take the following vows at the time of initiation: 1. To chant a minimum of sixteen rounds daily without
fail. 2. To strictly follow the four regulative principles of no meat eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling. 3. To accept the
order of the spiritual master as one's life and soul. 4. To accept discipleship into the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya-sampradaya through the
Founder-Acarya of ISKCON and to remain faithful to their order and teachings. 5. To remain faithful to Srila Prabhupada's order by
maintaining loyalty to ISKCON and its ultimate managing authority, the GBC.
> fallen out of parampara
If you mean a falldown, that's not a separation from the parampara. Rejection of/by one's guru is. -
Seems to me a rather heavy-handed approach that may put off devotees, new and old, from participating and feeling like they are being judged (even more than exists at the moment).rasa108:
[br]I am speaking as complete newcomer, practically outsider. I can't say I have had much experience with ISKCON or the devotees. But from what I did see, it struck me as a bit too liberal, I have found it confusing.[br]
[br]I am in favor of more structure, more organization, stricter and readily available rules and consequences for transgression. I think it would help against many false expectations, assumptions and other complications that naturally arise out of a I'm-okay-you're-okay liberal attitude.[br]
[br]I don't feel judged by such a "heavy-handed approach" at all. This is not because I think I would be able to comply with it, because I can't. I wish for clarity, knowing exactly what I am getting myself into, what exactly my obligations would be, what qualifications are required for what.[br]
[br]Without such an approach, I think it is hard to take anything seriously.[br]
[br]Scriptures make some strong points too:[br]
[br]
[br]Temples and monasteries should be constructed for the preaching of spiritual consciousness or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not to provide free hotels for persons who are useful for neither material nor spiritual purposes. Temples and monasteries should be strictly off limits to worthless clubs of crazy men. In the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we welcome everyone who agrees at least to follow the movement's regulative principles — no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating and no gambling. In the temples and monasteries, gatherings of unnecessary, rejected, lazy fellows should be strictly disallowed. The temples and monasteries should be used exclusively by devotees who are serious about spiritual advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
SB 7.13.8, pp
[br]
[br]Transcendental devotional service cannot be complete and cannot be relishable without the association of devotees. We have therefore established the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. Anyone who is trying to be aloof from this Krishna Consciousness Society and yet engage in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is living in a great hallucination, for this is not possible. [...] In our Krishna Consciousness Society we have full engagement twenty-four hours a day. Every moment of our time is always busily engaged in the service of the Lord. This is called the incessant flow of devotional service.
SB 4.9.11, pp -
>Those who followed such obligations, he said, would have the right to be officially accepted as being connected to Srila Prabhupada in our disciplic succession;
All this stuff is very good but the problem is that as per this proposal if someone can not give 10% of his income to society, he is not connected to Srila Prabhupada and guru parampara despite being properly initiated and chanting and following four reg. This is philosophically incorrect and apasampradaya. It puts money above everything else.
In India, there are thousands of devotees who are initiated by ISKCON gurus and follow all the principles, but they don't give 10% of their income and most of them don't know who SRS is and who GBC is. According to above definition of SRS they all are not connected to parampara. And I find it not only offensive but rather insulting to all those thousands of sincere souls. -
So these devotees who are initiated for a decade and chanting, following reg. principles and serving their gurus, I wonder if ISKCON gurus will have the courage to look in their eyes and tell them that they are not even connected to parampara.
-
5. To remain faithful to Srila Prabhupada's order byVEDA:
maintaining loyalty to ISKCON and its ultimate managing authority, the GBC.
There was nothing like that in my initiation ceremony (2004). I made no vow of loyalty to ISKCON or the GBC. Srila Prabhupada's mission statement for Iskcon was emphasized though.[Br][br]> fallen out of parampara[br][br]
If you mean a falldown, that's not a separation from the parampara. Rejection of/by one's guru is.
Is that to say we're connected to the parampara by diksa guru or by siksa guru? If a diksa guru falls or improperly rejects a disciple, can can the devotee remain connected to the parampara by taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada? -
[br][/quote] Actually clarity of the membership is a good thing. Somehow in the times of Prabhupada it was quite clear cut in or out. Now it is not quite clear at all. I guess we are just in disagreement about the details of definition.
I wish for clarity, knowing exactly what I am getting myself into, what exactly my obligations would be, what qualifications are required for what.[br]Baker:
[br]Without such an approach, I think it is hard to take anything seriously.[br] -
Pandu das:
[Quote]> fallen out of parampara[br][br]
If you mean a falldown, that's not a separation from the parampara. Rejection of/by one's guru is.
Is that to say we're connected to the parampara by diksa guru or by siksa guru? If a diksa guru falls or improperly rejects a disciple, can can the devotee remain connected to the parampara by taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada?[/quote] Actually ISKCON is quite liberal about these things, [br] According to SAC:[br]Scripture, tradition, and ISKCON law indicate that guru-disciple relationships are individual and cannot be mandated, as long as they fall within the boundary of guru, sadhu, and sastra. Whom an individual considers his prominent guru is a matter of the heart. No individual or institution does well to attempt to dictate to a devotee what faith he must have in his diksa-guru simply on the basis of institutional status. There is etiquette to be maintained, but faith is ultimately a private matter. -
>I am speaking as complete newcomer, practically outsider. I can't say I have had much experience with ISKCON or the devotees. But from what I did see, it struck me as >a bit too liberal, I have found it confusing.
No doubt this is true and there does need to be structure....as you will find out when you have more experience, this needs to be done in a way that will not offend devotees (who are not neccessarily following all these proposed prerequisites by SRS) but still consider themselves connected (i.e., following 4 regs, chanting 16 rounds, doing some service, faithfull to Guru etc.) to Srila Prabhupada in the dispciplic succession - the real point is that mostly these prerequisites are not being followed by those who are currently in ISKCON (including the management members - Temple Presidents etc.) but are still considered ISKCON members.
Here is more from the official ISKCON News website article - "....The feedback to date seems to indicate that the "membership issue" needs delicate handling -- or it may divide more than it unites." http://news.iskcon.com/node/2386/2009-11-15/iskcon_leaders_grapple_defining_who_member
>I am in favor of more structure, more organization, stricter and readily available rules and consequences for transgression. I think it would help against many false >expectations, assumptions and other complications that naturally arise out of a I'm-okay-you're-okay liberal attitude.
There are very clear rules set out by Srila Prabhupada as has been mentioned in your quote - "In the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we welcome everyone who agrees at least to follow the movement's regulative principles — no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating and no gambling." - many many devotees follow these principles and chant 16 rounds and are faithful to Srila Prabhupada and render service to the temple etc. (but live outside and don't neccessarily contribute 10% of their income and may have been divorced in the past etc.)...according to these propositions they would NOT be considered a member of ISKCON, which is clearly not correct according to Srila Prabhupada in your quote.
>"...Anyone who is trying to be aloof from this Krishna Consciousness Society and yet engage in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is living in a great hallucination, for this is not >possible."
Srila Prabhupada refers to another situation....I speak about devotees who associate with other devotees and render service to the temple, not those who are totally aloof - that is a different thing. -
What about this?
... And in India we've introduced a program, our membership program, so that we can go on distributing these literatures. And that membership program, there are four types of membership. One is life membership. Life membership means the member is entitled to all the books that we have printed plus all the books we will print in the future, plus a lifetime subscription to our magazine, Back to Godhead. And the member is entitled to stay at any one of our branches throughout the world free and if he happens to travel abroad or in India. We will have our branches. So that life membership fee is 1,111 rupees. And then we have donor membership. The donor member is entitled to all the books that have been printed, a lifetime subscription to our magazine, but he does not get the books in the future. That is 555 rupees. And subscriber membership, lifetime subscription to our magazine, which is 222 rupees. Or there is membership, yearly subscription to our magazine. In this way we're trying to recruit members that support our movement. This movement is being supported just by literature. So in this way we can flood the whole world with Krsna consciousness and then there'll be a change. If we want to see a change in the world, then we have to distribute knowledge of Krsna in this way. You are welcome to become a member. And also your friends. Tell them about our membership programs.>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation -- December 13, 1970, Indore, Srila Prabhupada: -
Actually clarity of the membership is a good thing. Somehow in the times of Prabhupada it was quite clear cut in or out. Now it is not quite clear at all. I guess we are just in disagreement about the details of definition.ccd:
[br]I suppose some things went without saying back then, could be taken for granted. Just like in the traditional Vedic culture, many things probably went without saying.[br]
[br]But when a religious institution tries to establish itself outside of its own native culture, even in a hostile environment, probably a lot more defining and specifying is needed, if that institution is to survive and maintain a certain level of quality and relevance.[br] -
> proposal if someone can not give 10% of his income to society, he is not connected to Srila Prabhupada and guru parampara despite being properly initiated and chanting and following four reg. This is philosophically incorrect and apasampradaya. It puts money above everything else.
I guess 10% could be made less for extremely poor devotees or the contribution could be nonmonetary.
But usually these poor village devotees are eager to give more than they can afford.
> In India, there are thousands of devotees who are initiated by ISKCON gurus and follow all the principles, but they don't give 10% of their income and most of them don't know who SRS is and who GBC is.
If they don't know what GBC is they should be informed.
> Is that to say we're connected to the parampara by diksa guru or by siksa guru?
By diksa guru. But everyone can be inspired by a parampara and follow it as far as he can even without any formalities. It's like full-fledged study & degree vs. audition study (not sure if that's the proper term - I mean being an auditor, attending classes but not exams, etc.).
> If a diksa guru falls or improperly rejects a disciple, can can the devotee remain connected to the parampara by taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada?
These cases don't terminate the diksa connection as per Krsna Bhajanamrta.
Taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada without diksa is analogical to what auditor student does.
Life Membership is the only well defined membership in ISKCON so far. -
[/quote]
What about this?Pandu das:
[quote]
... And in India we've introduced a program, our membership program, so that we can go on distributing these literatures. And that membership program, there are four types of membership. One is life membership. Life membership means the member is entitled to all the books that we have printed plus all the books we will print in the future, plus a lifetime subscription to our magazine, Back to Godhead. And the member is entitled to stay at any one of our branches throughout the world free and if he happens to travel abroad or in India. We will have our branches. So that life membership fee is 1,111 rupees. And then we have donor membership. The donor member is entitled to all the books that have been printed, a lifetime subscription to our magazine, but he does not get the books in the future. That is 555 rupees. And subscriber membership, lifetime subscription to our magazine, which is 222 rupees. Or there is membership, yearly subscription to our magazine. In this way we're trying to recruit members that support our movement. This movement is being supported just by literature. So in this way we can flood the whole world with Krsna consciousness and then there'll be a change. If we want to see a change in the world, then we have to distribute knowledge of Krsna in this way. You are welcome to become a member. And also your friends. Tell them about our membership programs.>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation -- December 13, 1970, Indore, Srila Prabhupada:
Seems this is another membership and not the one referred to by Sivarama Swami -
Yes, Baker, that's the idea.
-
Pandu das:What about this?
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation -- December 13, 1970, Indore, Srila Prabhupada:... And in India we've introduced a program, our membership program, so that we can go on distributing these literatures. And that membership program, there are four types of membership. One is life membership. Life membership means the member is entitled to all the books that we have printed plus all the books we will print in the future, plus a lifetime subscription to our magazine, Back to Godhead. And the member is entitled to stay at any one of our branches throughout the world free and if he happens to travel abroad or in India. We will have our branches. So that life membership fee is 1,111 rupees. And then we have donor membership. The donor member is entitled to all the books that have been printed, a lifetime subscription to our magazine, but he does not get the books in the future. That is 555 rupees. And subscriber membership, lifetime subscription to our magazine, which is 222 rupees. Or there is membership, yearly subscription to our magazine. In this way we're trying to recruit members that support our movement. This movement is being supported just by literature. So in this way we can flood the whole world with Krsna consciousness and then there'll be a change. If we want to see a change in the world, then we have to distribute knowledge of Krsna in this way. You are welcome to become a member. And also your friends. Tell them about our membership programs.
rasa 108 said:
Seems this is another membership and not the one referred to by Sivarama Swami
>
seems this is a "membership" that ISKCON now refuses to admit that is obliged to. as a person who four times bought life memberships, i know for a fact that ISKCON management will not ever make good on their obligations because, by and large, there is a "pounds, shillings, pence" motive. the ISKCON legal subtrfuge, their attempt to update the definition of "life member", is an attempt to remove themselves from any past obligations
by extracting as much money as you possibly can from the indian community, who really gains?
by not sending out the milk sweets to life members as promised, who gains? the pujari who eats it? really
by not sending us our BTG every month (or is it only 5 times a year now?), who really benefits and who really gains?
by not sending us all BBT books in print (as promised in the 1972 and 1974 life memberships), who really gains?
someone ask maharaj for me, ISKCON refuses to respond to my pleas to ISKCON Resolve any more. thanks. -
> four times bought life memberships
How? At once for yourself and others or 4x for yourself at various times? In the latter case, if the 'goods' weren't delivered even after a reminder, why did you buy it 3x again? I can't imagine doing that myself. Like with any other contract.
> by extracting as much money as you possibly can from the indian community, who really gains?
The donor who gives to Krsna seva in good faith. But if cheating by devotee collectors is involved it's obviously counterproductive in the long run and less money will be collected. -
What i find interesting is about such rules is that generally these things are made to control us.........Brahmana's in my humble opinion should be empowered by their own desire to please krishna.....The GBC is for spiritual encouragement,spiritual guidance and sastric deliniation.....Brahminical culture.....Full stop...Why should an ecclesiastical body hope to keep control? Sounds like the ''white mans disease.....if i can't control ...manipulate it....if i can't influence it .......kill it!
-
When one takes initiation he is part of iskcon family........voluntary ,freedom to serve krishna, in ones own time ,according to ones mood ,place and individual circumstances ......Such ''sad'' rules of Sivarama swami ,will they encourage dynamic devotional service from highly gifted sincere persons?.....No it is an attempt to make iskcon a mundane religion like the mormons......Which intrinsiacly it is not
Will a powerful person like bhaktivinoda takura who had two wifes fit within such mundane rules of control?I think not.....everything is not based at this level on ''trying to control devotees''.... in my opinion it is who is the best devotee to perform the best service....which is to please krishna!.....Not wether he has divorced his wife?
Actually having been married several times ....my third wife is the first ''real ''female devotee .The others were very materially motivated!
So i told them serve krishna, chant 16 rounds or see you later....Most women in the western world find such things extremely differcult. -
Also we personally met several indian life members who have purchased life membership....4 times at least....i still send my junior devotees to them to make it more....They are sincere wealthy devotees who personally met Srila Prabhupada and after they are forced to sit down and listen about the sublime moment....They usually give a donation again....at least.
-
Sri Govinda Prabhu, did you listen to the presentation?
Mormon organization is used as an example. Regardless of what they teach, their management is efficient. Sometimes I think how far would ISKCON be if organized as Mormons or JWs.
The divorce can be an indirect measure of the Vedic lifestyle. Traditional marriages (using jyotish, etc.) hardly ever break. If the person disregards that, he may tend to disregard other things as well. I'd definitely prefer a pakka Vaisnava grhastha as TP. -
God save me from it.
Mormon organization is used as an example. Regardless of what they teach, their management is efficient. Sometimes I think how far would ISKCON be if organized as Mormons or JWsVEDA: -
I have actually spent several years around Mormons as an "investigator". I also functioned as their teacher for the local language, sometimes translated at the Sunday service or otherwise and partcipated at some of their organisational meetings.
Their whole endeavor was filled with efficiency, and this is what I liked so much about them. They really seemed to be sure of what they were doing, they knew why and how. There were schedules, plans and goals for individual meetings, homework. As an "investigator" (as they call a person who has an interest in their religion), I felt taken care of. Things were expected of me, goals set - like what and how much scriptures to study, what to think about, what to do, and things were then discussed in individual meetings (two missionaries per one investigator). It was all very engaging and reasonably serious.
It was a really nice experience. I just couldn't accept their theology. -
ccd: I tend to think that efficiency is what SP had in his mind when he said:
“‘If all my disciples will fully cooperate with me, then we can take over the whole world in eighteen days.’“ (TKG VP homage 1993) -
It does not sound like an instruction for efficiency or organization, rather an encouragement to act in complete surrender to the guru's mission. Being procedural and formal about membership, really reduces your chances to take over the word in 18 days;-) (maybe we do not want to take over the world anymore, in 1972 devotees ACTUALLY believed that in some few years everyone would chant or at least know well how... honestly the best strategy to take over the world...)
ccd: I tend to think that efficiency is what SP had in his mind when he said:VEDA:
“‘If all my disciples will fully cooperate with me, then we can take over the whole world in eighteen days.’“ (TKG VP homage 1993) -
God save me from it.[/quote]
[quote]ccd:
Mormon organization is used as an example. Regardless of what they teach, their management is efficient. Sometimes I think how far would ISKCON be if organized as Mormons or JWsVEDA:
[br]On the other side of the efficiency issue ... Mormons and JW's operate within the framework of "there is only one lifetime for action, and if you don't get it right now, you'll burn in hell for all eternity" (in Mormonism, there is a kind of purgatory, but one is advised not to wait so long); they operate within the framework that all spiritual advancement or benefit is basically to be gained and to culminate in this one lifetime. They have some expectation within how many months a person is supposed to get baptized. It's a bit like a college course, with a syllabus and time limits.[br]
[br]I think this philosophical understanding of only one lifetime for action is what makes various practical forms of efficiency possible.[br]
[br]Whereas in Vaishnavism, as far as I understood, this is not the case, because the idea is that devotional service is something that takes many many lifetimes to perfect. As such, Mormon strategies of efficiency are rather extraneous.[br] -
Efficiency is not something I am against in preaching, conflict resolution and even in spiirtual care. It is a corporate membership model, where it becomes a sunday religion and atmanivedanam is replaced with 10%. BTW we are one lifetime group, it is others, such as Sri and Madhvas who would put us in two to three lifetimes due to adhikara by birth. We do have to finish business in this lifetime, but we can not expect it as a sure deal or we will not finish it...
-
BTW we are one lifetime group, it is others, such as Sri and Madhvas who would put us in two to three lifetimes due to adhikara by birth. We do have to finish business in this lifetime, but we can not expect it as a sure deal or we will not finish it...ccd:
Please say more about this.[br]
[br]How is GV a "one lifetime group"? Isn't there the idea that generally, it is only after many many lifetimes of pious credits that one steps on the path of bhakti at all - as opposed to starting from the very beginning in this lifetime?[br]
[br]What happens if we don't "finish business" in this lifetime?[br]
[br]Would thinking "If I don't make it out of the cycle of birth and death in this lifetime, then in the next" make people so lazy that they wouldn't start on the path of bhakti at all, or at least wouldn't commit themselves to it seriously? -
ccd: I tend to think that efficiency is what SP had in his mind when he said:VEDA:
“‘If all my disciples will fully cooperate with me, then we can take over the whole world in eighteen days.’“ (TKG VP homage 1993)
I thought that quote (1972) run more like that:
“If you devotees only had complete faith that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of
Godhead, we can take over the whole world and make it Krishna conscious in a period of only 18 days.” -
> It is a corporate membership model, where it becomes a sunday religion and atmanivedanam is replaced with 10%.
That's the 'minimal level' course. Who forces us to take it? Many Christian saints took the 100% atmanivedana course.
> it is only after many many lifetimes of pious credits that one steps on the path of bhakti at all
It's a bit more complex. Material piety is not the cause of bhakti. Ajnata sukrti is. Related info is on our site.
> What happens if we don't "finish business" in this lifetime?
BG 6.37-45
> Would thinking "If I don't make it out of the cycle of birth and death in this lifetime, then in the next" make people so lazy that they wouldn't start on the path of bhakti at all, or at least wouldn't commit themselves to it seriously?
Many people when told about reincarnation actually like it since they think they can enjoy life after life. However, they have to realize that suffering eclipses the enjoyment. Then their laziness is gone. -
> What happens if we don't "finish business" in this lifetime?
BG 6.37-45
Thank you, I am familiar with that. But my question was to CCD saying "We do have to finish business in this lifetime" - Why do we have to finish in this lifetime (what happens if we don't)?
This sounds like a threat to me.
The path of bhakti requires quite a bit of material welfare and material expertise, otherwise one cannot afford to pay for the various expenses connected with visiting temples and becoming initiated.
Personally, I don't think I will ever have enough money in this life time to afford these things, so for me, quite a big portion of the prescribed practices is an impossibility.
A favorable rebirth seems the only option for me. -
>"We do have to finish business in this lifetime" - Why do we have to finish in this lifetime (what happens if we don't)?
>This sounds like a threat to me.
This is very very serious question. The answer is that you must consider it possible and aim at it.
If you fail you will be given a second chance, but you should not count on it. No threat.
It is a serious question, not a joke. the attitude should not be in one life. It should be now. -
> The answer is that you must consider it possible and aim at it.
Why "must"?
On the grounds of what should I consider it possible? -
NoD 18 - it is technically known as hopefullness or ASA-bandha, based on this you have to arrive to samutkaNThA. Otherwise you can not be _actually_ attached to the holy names. In other words, without a hope (that you get if you are hopeless/hoep against hope) you will have no full determination (that is how you achieve Krisna consciousness) and thus you will not be steady in chanting. But even a drop of this conviction is sufficient to protect you from the greatest fear, so do not worry, no pressure;-)
-
Before you bounce it back, read it again in NoD at least.
-
Rasa108:
There are very clear rules set out by Srila Prabhupada as has been mentioned in your quote - "In the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we welcome everyone who agrees at least to follow the movement's regulative principles — no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating and no gambling." - many many devotees follow these principles and chant 16 rounds and are faithful to Srila Prabhupada and render service to the temple etc. (but live outside and don't neccessarily contribute 10% of their income and may have been divorced in the past etc.)...according to these propositions they would NOT be considered a member of ISKCON
SRS:Those who followed such obligations, he said, would have the right to be officially accepted as being connected to Srila Prabhupada in our disciplic succession
I am not worried about the membership of society, they can have devotees who are legally members in papers and can control the temples and associated property and can become gurus and reside in mayapur etc. The problem is SRS is challenging the connection with parampara and Srila Prabhupada. According to his definition, even if the devotees are chanting rounds and following reg. principles, despite having initiation ceremony, still they will be considered not connected to parampara because they fail on some other criteria like 10% money and past divorce.
This is going to create an identity crisis for many devotees imo. -
I agree with Dweller. Somehow it seems we are becoming too expert on alienating members, instead of creating various additional memberships that are variations on life membership model expanded to the congregation.
Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Discussions1,259
- Health59
- Other127
- Philosophy728
- Sadhana73
- Social217
- Tech55
In this Discussion
- Baker March 2010
- borokrsnadasa March 2010
- ccd March 2010
- deena March 2010
- dweller-in-peace November 2009
- janmastami das November 2009
- Kula-pavana November 2009
- maah! November 2009
- Pandu das November 2009
- portnoy November 2009
- rasa108 March 2010
- shd February 2010
- VEDA March 2010